Support NeoGAF

[Teddman]

But they have seperate SKUs... which was your definer for "seperate games".

I still don't see why you are introducing GTA. I didn't bring it up. Pokemon obviously is a unique series in terms of having two versions for every release. If your overall point is to deny that this is primarily a means to drive sales (and secondary to promote trading, which could be done without two branded versions), you're dodging the issue.

I don't see why... these are all the same games. Pokemon RuSa is one game. GTA3 is one game. Vice City is one game. Despite differeing versions, rereleases and ports.

Pokemon "RuSa" is not one game. In fact, it's not a game title at all, it's an abbreviation. An abbreviation of what? OF TWO GAMES' TITLES.

Just seems a bold move for a new IP in an almost dead market. Game Freak Enetrtainment must have one hell of a marketing department.

It was an ingenious marketing move supported by gameplay. I'm not disputing that.

 

[cvxfreak]

As I said before I'm just going by what people have said in this thread. And I'm trying to understand the justification for combining the sales of 2 seperatly sold Pokemon games.

Famitsu does it.BTW, a very small margin of gamers purchase both editions of Pokemon R/S and the other sets, so counting them both as one game is definitely justified and makes a lot of sense. It's definitely a similar margin to those gamers who import a Japanese edition of a game and get the English version later on.

So Pokemon's definitely ahead of GTA this generation.

 

[jarrod]

I still don't see why you are introducing GTA. I didn't bring it up. .

Well, this discussion predates your contributions.

And I bring up GTA because it applies to your SKU argument.

Pokemon obviously is a unique series in terms of having two versions for every release. .

Not really... Winning Eleven, Madden, Mortal Kombat, MegaMan Battle Network and plenty of others are doing the same.

If your overall point is to deny that this is primarily a means to drive sales (and secondary to promote trading, which could be done without two branded versions), you're dodging the issue..

What issue, that Pokemon Ruby and Pokemon Sapphire are the same game? How are they not the same game exactly? SKUs again?

Pokemon "RuSa" is not one game. In fact, it's not a game title at all, it's an abbreviation. An abbreviation of what? OF TWO GAMES' TITLES..

So what are Grand Theft Auto 3 and Grand Theft Auto Double Pack?

It was an ingenious marketing move supported by gameplay. I'm not disputing that.

I'm saying you have that backwards.

 

[SuperPac]

Honestly, the only reason people are still enamored with Pokemon is that many western game developers just can't be bothered to do portable games. The good devs are too busy working on home console games where the monetary benefits of a success are greater. It's a shame Nintendo hasn't fostered original US portable content as much as they have GameCube content, but maybe that'll change once Metroid his DS.

 

[Teddman]

Well, this discussion predates your contributions.

And I bring up GTA because it apllies to your SKU argument.

But you'll ignore the part about the content differences that Pokemon "RuSa" has and GTA, in all versions, does not.

Not really... Winning Eleven, Madden, Mortal Kombat, MegaMan Battle Network and plenty of others are doing the same.

Reaally? So some versions of Winning Eleven and Madden, etc. have certain players that others don't, and to get them all I have to either buy both or link-up trade with someone else? I think you've just topped the GTA analogy in terms of irrelevence.

What issue, that Pokemon Ruby and Pokemon Sapphire are the same game? How are they not the same game exactly? SKUs again?

You forgot to say "RuSa." Besides separate skus, the games have different titles and different content. Let's call them "RuSa" though and gloss that over.

So what are Grand Theft Auto 3 and Grand Theft Auto Double Pack?

I'm missing the part in there where this is relevent. There's no abbreviation of two games titles there being combined, sales were counted separately, the two releases were reviewed separately, the two games didn't come out at the same time, etc. Please stop with the GTA smokescreen now.

I'm saying you have that backwards.

Does "SaRu" sound better to you?

 

[cvxfreak]

Famitsu disagrees with Teddman.

 

[0wn3d]

Why is this still being debated!?!

Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire ARE THE SAME GAME. I'd even include Emerald because it is just a "special" version of Ruby/Sapphire.

If you think Ruby and Sapphire are different games... then wouldn't an English Pokemon Ruby and a Japanese Pokemon Ruby be different games?? One is in English, one is in Japanese!

 

[Prine]

Honestly, the only reason people are still enamored with Pokemon is that many western game developers just can't be bothered to do portable games. The good devs are too busy working on home console games where the monetary benefits of a success are greater.

Agreed

 

[Teddman]

Famitsu disagrees with Teddman.

And every other magazine and method of sales reporting disagrees with Famitsu. By and large, they are counted as two games and NPD, etc. sales charts reflect that.

Here is what the "RuSa" advocates are trying to divert attention from: If there weren't two versions of every Pokemon title, they wouldn't sell as well. They might lose an almighty Nintendo sales trump card! Heaven no.

Two versions = inflated sales. A zippy abbreviation for the title doesn't change the fact that they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Sales of both versions counted as one game, any argument to the counter spun away desperately, the unique nature of the Pokemon series downplayed.

Does anyone think that if Nintendo stopped making two versions of each Pokemon title and instead released just one version that sales wouldn't decrease? Even allowing that the unique monsters in some carts and link-up gameplay persisted, but there was just one package, one title, one set of box art.

That strikes to heart of the matter, and the answer is an undeniable yes, they would decrease. Gotta catch'em all.

 

[borghe]

Honestly, the only reason people are still enamored with Pokemon is that many western game developers just can't be bothered to do portable games. The good devs are too busy working on home console games where the monetary benefits of a success are greater.

Agreed

Agreed here as well, though I will also add that the DS stands to revolutionize that. With the possibility of online gaming at the portable level all it will take is THE killer app on the DS. Maybe it will be Metroid Hunters, maybe a racing game, or maybe an MMOG on the handheld... but the potential is there to escalate the handheld market to a new level. Nintendo, by including wireless gaming as default (take note sony, adapters, bah) has just raised the stakes. Now let's see if a developer is brave enough to see that bet. I'm willing to place 2:1 that the developer who does make that killer app will be japanese.

 

[jarrod]

But you'll ignore the part about the content differences that Pokemon "RuSa" has and GTA, in all versions, does not.

PC GTAs have expandability over the PS2 versions, and the Xbox versions have slightly touched up visuals. So they're all different games?

Pokemon's content differences are minor, game design is identical. As with every version of GTA3 or Vice City.

In fact both games contain all the same code (unlike the various GTA ports), with minor differences in which monsters "show up"... so how do you define a new game exactly? Pokemon releases have different titles and SKUs sure, but so do many games (including every Greatest Hits, The Best, PSone Books, Platinum, Player's Choice, etc rerelease). Their content is pretty much the same outside minor variation... I really just don't see how these are fundamentally different games? Maybe you could try a explain in more detail?

Reaally? So some versions of Winning Eleven and Madden, etc. have certain players that others don't, and to get them all I have to either buy both or link-up trade with someone else? I think you've just topped the GTA analogy in terms of irrelevence.

Winning Eleven comes in J-League and World Soccer variations, so yes actually. I'm not quite sure what the content differences in Madden 2005 Vs the Collector's Edition are though, CE might have some added historical teams/players iirc.

Besides separate skus, the games have different titles and different content. Let's call them "RuSa" though and gloss that over.I'm missing the part in there where this is relevent. There's no abbreviation of two games titles there being combined, sales were counted separately, the two releases were reviewed separately, the two games didn't come out at the same time, etc.

GTA3 has different content in the Double Pack? Rockstar doesn't add up sales of all versions in their PR? Releasing the same game later makes it a different game? How about GTA3 Vs GTA3 GH?

Please stop with the GTA smokescreen now.

For a "smokescreen" it's worked rather well... can I expect a convincing counter argument anytime soon or just more RuSa jokes?

Does "SaRu" sound better to you?

Marketing follows game design here. It's rather simple.

 

[cvxfreak]

And every other magazine and method of sales reporting disagrees with Famitsu. By and large, they are counted as two games and NPD, etc. sales charts reflect that.

Here is what the "RuSa" advocates are trying to divert attention from: If there weren't two versions of every Pokemon title, they wouldn't sell as well. They might lose an almighty Nintendo sales trump card! Heaven no.

Two versions = inflated sales. A zippy abbreviation for the title doesn't change the fact that they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Sales of both versions counted as one game, any argument to the counter spun away desperately, the unique nature of the Pokemon series downplayed.

Does anyone think that if Nintendo stopped making two versions of each Pokemon title and instead released just one version that sales wouldn't decrease? Even allowing that the unique monsters in some carts and link-up gameplay persisted, but there was just one package, one title, one set of box art.

That strikes to heart of the matter, and the answer is an undeniable yes, they would decrease. Gotta catch'em all.

It doesn't matter if others disagree with Famitsu. That's not the point, the point is that one of the biggest magazines in videogaming consider them the same title - their opinion should be taken into account, just as one who counts them separately. And the NPD counts even limited editions separately - look at Madden 2005 CE. Same game? Pretty much. In fact, I'd say that the differences between Madden 2005 and the CE are equal or greater than that of Ruby and Sapphire, Fire Red and Leaf Green.

Just to say, you don't know for sure what the result would be if they only released one title. I suppose Pokemon Emerald is enough of a hint, since it's debut was greater than those of RuSaFiLe. But since it was a re-release, then we can't be certain. To be fair, sales definitely would decrease - no one's denying that, but those who buy both versions are definitely not a majority, or cause the userbase to get cut in half.

EDIT: I should add that I firmly believe sales of an amalgamation of Ruby/Sapphire - let's call it "Pokemon Advance: Hoenn Region" would still be over 11.5 Million units.

 

[Teddman]

For a "smokescreen" it's worked rather well... can I expect a convincing counter argument anytime soon or just more RuSa jokes?

Got you to admit it was a smokescreen though, so I'll take satisfaction in bothering to entertain it in return for exposing it. And now it was worth it, because we can snip all that GTA, Madden, etc. nonsense.

As for "RuSa" jokes, they're funny because they get to the absurdity of considering Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire as one game under all considerations. Does any actually play "Pokemon RuSa"? No, you play one or the other. There's no "RuSa" listed in any sales report. Technically, they are two games.

Do you think Pokemon would continue to sell just as well if it were truly one game? I mean, why not release them as one game then?

"Oh, well see, it's the whole trading gameplay... There has to be two releases."

 

[jarrod]

And every other magazine and method of sales reporting disagrees with Famitsu. By and large, they are counted as two games and NPD, etc. sales charts reflect that.

Actually, I'm not aware of any mainstream media outlet that's reviewed Ruby and Sapphire as different games? Can you point some out?

Here is what the "RuSa" advocates are trying to divert attention from: If there weren't two versions of every Pokemon title, they wouldn't sell as well. They might lose an almighty Nintendo sales trump card! Heaven no.

I think everyone agrees sales would drop somewhat, but I doubt the 50% figure some have said.

Two versions = inflated sales. A zippy abbreviation for the title doesn't change the fact that they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Sales of both versions counted as one game, any argument to the counter spun away desperately, the unique nature of the Pokemon series downplayed.

Again what's unique, we get different versions of many games across a variety of genres. Square counts all versions of FFX together. Konami counts all versions of WE5 together. Rockstar counts all versions of GTA3 together... why can't Nintendo?

Does anyone think that if Nintendo stopped making two versions of each Pokemon title and instead released just one version that sales wouldn't decrease? Even allowing that the unique monsters in some carts and link-up gameplay persisted, but there was just one package, one title, one set of box art.

Well Nintendo has done that before for 2nd releases upgrades (Yellow, Crystal, Emerald). And while sales are less than the combined totals of their previous sets, individually the upgrade outsells each previous set version... though it's doubtfull every set buyer also purchases the upgrade (just as not every VF4 buyer picked up Evolution) being that it isn't an entirely new game.

That strikes to heart of the matter, and the answer is an undeniable yes, they would decrease. Gotta catch'em all.

I'm sensing some resentment here...

 

[Shouta]

Here is what the "RuSa" advocates are trying to divert attention from: If there weren't two versions of every Pokemon title, they wouldn't sell as well. They might lose an almighty Nintendo sales trump card! Heaven no.

Even if the Pokemon games were just released as one cart instead of two. Their total sales would be only marginially decreased as opposed to significantly. You're under the assumption that the people buying one version of the game would automatically be not interested in Pokemon if they were released as one instead of two carts. The variations in what Pokemon appear in which game isn't even a significant reason as to why the sales of Pokemon are so huge, it's the fact you can Collect them and then battle them with your friends. Even if they didn't have the variation gimmick, people would still be buying the game to be able to battle each other and collect and raise their pokemon on their own.

 

[cvxfreak]

As for "RuSa" jokes, they're funny because they get to the absurdity of considering Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire as one game under all considerations. Does any actually play "Pokemon RuSa"? No, you play one or the other. There's no "RuSa" listed in any sales report. Technically, they are two games.

Did you not just look at a Famitsu report? It's technically not "RuSa" but Ruby & Sapphire - is there a difference?

 

[jarrod]

Got you to admit it was a smokescreen though, so I'll take satisfaction in bothering to entertain it in return for exposing it. And now it was worth it, because we can snip all that GTA, Madden, etc. nonsense.

Actually I was just quoting your terminology. And I see smart remarks again taking the place of any substantial rebuttal. Good show Ted!

As for "RuSa" jokes, they're funny because they get to the absurdity of considering Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire as one game under all considerations. Does any actually play "Pokemon RuSa"? No, you play one or the other. There's no "RuSa" listed in any sales report. Technically, they are two games.

NCL lists them together, as does Famitsu and most JP polling sources.

Technically they're one game, but two releases.

Do you think Pokemon would continue to sell just as well if it were truly one game? I mean, why not release them as one game then?

Did I say they would? Have I even implied as much? Who are you arguing with exactly?

"Oh, well see, it's the whole trading gameplay... There has to be two releases."

To force trading, yes there does. Otherwise you get them all by yourself.

 

[Teddman]

Jarrod, you're still in denial about the unique way Pokemon games are released. Comparing them to FFX, etc. underscores that. There is not a FFX Blue and Red, released at the same time, in which certain monsters are exclusive to one version or another.

You're under the assumption that the people buying one version of the game would automatically be not interested in Pokemon if they were released as one instead of two carts.

No. I'm under the assumption that the far less people would buy two copies of the game if it were just one version.

 

[jarrod]

Jarrod, you're still in denial about the unique way Pokemon games are released. Comparing them to FFX, etc. underscores that. There is not a FFX Blue and Red, released at the same time, in which certain monsters are exclusive to one version or another.

They're not exactly thje same no, but it's essentially the same game. FFX is a less accurate example (as International relreleases actually add new content, though the GH/Best/Books rereleases are identical) but Winning Eleven works rather smoothly.

No. I'm under the assumption that the far less people would buy two copies of the game if it were just one version.

I'd say you're also overestimating the number of people who buy two copies of each Pokemon set if you think there'd be a dramatic sales decrease though.... less sure, but I doubt anything meaningful. I'm not sure I'm the one in denial here, you seem unable to take anything positive regarding Nintendo at face value... old grudges die hard I guess.

 

[Teddman]

Are you people honestly trying to tell me that lumping in sales from both titles and creating "Pokemon RuSa," (as if it's no different from any other standalone game), and using it as a watermark to compare against other single-copy sales of games doesn't give it an advantage?

I think everyone agrees sales would drop somewhat, but I doubt the 50% figure some have said.

You have already admitted that if Nintendo released only one version of a given Pokemon title, you believe sales would go down. Therefore, you do see that the release of two versions alone gives it a sales boost above and beyond what it would sell in one box.

And yet you still want to directly compare "Pokemon RuSa" to other games that are truly standalone releases, and make no allowance for its unique sales situation, even though you have already acknowledged it. That's the issue.

 

[jarrod]

Are you people honestly trying to tell me that lumping in sales from both titles and creating "Pokemon RuSa," (as if it's no different from any other standalone game), and using it as a watermark to compare against other single-copy sales of games doesn't give it an advantage?

If you weren't paying attention, for the comparison I also added all versions of GTA3 and Vice City (across different platforms no less).

You have already admitted that if Nintendo released only one version of a given Pokemon title, you believe sales would go down. Therefore, you do see that the release of two versions alone gives it a sales boost above and beyond what it would sell in one box.

Yes. I also believe there's repeat buyers between the various GTA release, rereleases and ports though.

And yet you still want to directly compare "Pokemon RuSa" to other games that are truly standalone releases, and make no allowance for its unique sales situation, even though you have already acknowledged it. That's the issue.

No. Again, for the GTA comparisons (and all games I'm comparing RuSa to actually) I've added all versions. The issue seems to be in your head.

 

[Scottlarock]

They used Nintendos loss of console market share this gen as proof that Japanese developers are declining in software sales.

doesn't it say japanese market share dropped from 49% to 29%?!? or did I misunderstand what you were saying?

 

[Razoric]

No. Again, for the GTA comparisons (and all games I'm comparing RuSa to actually) I've added all versions. The issue seems to be in your head.

Obviously not with just him. Your combining of Pokemon RuSa is stetchy. Keep going back to GTA comparisons... of course there will be some hardcore repeat buyers, but most gamers dont rebuy direct ports. From what I've seen with Pokemon, they are encouraged to be bought together, one would think you would include that when you start making charts about how Pokemon single handly sold 14 million copies. Sketchy, very sketchy.

 

[etiolate]

I would like Western and Japanese developers to both succeed. My issue isn't that.

The issue is I don't really understand how Western developers are suddenly regarded as so much better now. Are Western games as polished as Japanese? No, GTA3 is flawed as hell. The backbone of the game is entirely hurt by its on foot controls. Are they more creative? No, the glutton of software is FPS and action titles. The other half is sports titles and extreme sports titles. Well what about the open ended Western RPGs? Let's be honest, most often we associate a lack of focus and some element of alignment as innovation. Lack of focus is most often a flaw and alignment is nothing new. Oh boy, you can be bad! People treat you slightly differently(sometimes), but you'll still play the same game. Most EA software feels like fast food, I enjoy them for a week yet afterwards I hardly ever go back to play the game. I just don't feel the superiority in Western software to Japanese software. Hell, most of the time I don't feel the equality of the two. Western games still mostly suffer from poor elements in game design and lack of polish. I blame the PC roots, where cumbersome manuals and patches replace inituitive design and debugging.

It comes down to this: GTA inspired gets more hype and sales then Pokemon inspired. This idea is a matter of non-videogame fans getting into videogames and the media reenforcing the idea in the thought that GTA matures the industry somehow(?). The second issue is that FPS is a hot genre and the japanese have nothing there to compete. The Japanese need their Mortal Kombat.

 

[jarrod]

Obviously not with just him. Your combining of Pokemon RuSa is stetchy. Keep going back to GTA comparisons... of course there will be some hardcore repeat buyers, but most gamers dont rebuy direct ports. From what I've seen with Pokemon, they are encouraged to be bought together, one would think you would include that when you start making charts about how Pokemon single handly sold 14 million copies. Sketchy, very sketchy.

I don't see it as so... there's a variety of situations where GTA rebuying can take place as well, one could also say releasing the tweaked PC/Xbox versions after the buggy PS2 versions also shows intent on that end.

Someone's just pissed that kiddies > hookers.

 

[SuperPac]

Sorry to break up the Ruby/Sapphire talk here, but...

Agreed here as well, though I will also add that the DS stands to revolutionize that. With the possibility of online gaming at the portable level all it will take is THE killer app on the DS. Maybe it will be Metroid Hunters, maybe a racing game, or maybe an MMOG on the handheld... but the potential is there to escalate the handheld market to a new level. Nintendo, by including wireless gaming as default (take note sony, adapters, bah) has just raised the stakes. Now let's see if a developer is brave enough to see that bet. I'm willing to place 2:1 that the developer who does make that killer app will be japanese.

When it comes to online gaming, Japanese developers have always been two steps (or more) behind their western counterparts. I honestly have to wonder if any developers are actually going to take advantage of the Internet link feature on the DS. Here's why:

a) The expense of maintaining a game-matching server for a portable title is greater than the potential benefit of adding in such a feature for anyone other than Nintendo itself. MAYBE if Nintendo had some kind of DS-Live feature, but then there's the fact that...

b) Nintendo has no experience with online gaming. And even when they've had the tools to do it, like the modem and ethernet adapters on the GC, they have not taken advantage of it nor have they encouraged anyone else to do so.

My guess is that the eventual Pokemon DS game will not feature Internet play...and that'll be a *real* shame.

 

[Shouta]

No. I'm under the assumption that the far less people would buy two copies of the game if it were just one version.

And how many people actually buy two copies now for themselves? You're overestimating how many people actually buy Ruby and Sapphire.

Even if you were right in that many of the people that bought both Ruby and Sapphire versions went down, that would only reduce the sales of the game by a small percentage instead of some insanely wild number.

No one is disagreeing with the fact that Pokemon game sales would go down. What is at the heart of this is how big of a decrease would it be. Anyone that knows Pokemon and has seen the trends for the game knows that the number of people actually buying both games for the sake of completeing it themselves is small. Most people buying Pokemon are only buying one copy for themselves or if they're buying two, it's one for themselves and one for another person. If you seriously think that the game's sales would drop 50% if they were released as one game instead of two, then you don't anything about Pokemon sales at all.

Obviously not with just him. Your combining of Pokemon RuSa is stetchy.Keep going back to GTA comparisons... of course there will be some hardcore repeat buyers, but most gamers dont rebuy direct ports. From what I've seen with Pokemon, they are encouraged to be bought together, one would think you would include that when you start making charts about how Pokemon single handly sold 14 million copies. Sketchy, very sketchy.

How so? He's combining Ruby and Sapphire together as one title for sales because they act as one title. He combined each iteration of GTA across all the platforms it's appeared on as a single title too. There's absolutely nothing sketchy about it.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Once again, polish does not a good game make. GTA is the greatest game of this generation (for me) despite all the issues it has, and not for the violence, either. The need to rate games on the controls or graphics is the result of a couple of decades of brainless magazine reviews. GTA transends its control and graphics issues becuase the design is freaking brilliant. Far too little emphasis (on any continent) of good design of gameplay beyond joystick input.

 

[Kai Dracon]

I say we combine every game together and call it "Bob".

 

[Draff]

Once again, polish does not a good game make. GTA is the greatest game ofthis generation (for me) despite all the issues it has, and not for the violence, either. The need to rate gammes on the controls or grapics is the result of a couppe of decades of brainless magazine reviews. GTA transends it's control oand graphics issues becuase the design is freaking brilliant. Far too little emphasis (on any continent) of good design of gameplay beyond joystick input.

That's like telling developers that they can be lazy.

 

[cvxfreak]

Obviously not with just him. Your combining of Pokemon RuSa is stetchy. Keep going back to GTA comparisons... of course there will be some hardcore repeat buyers, but most gamers dont rebuy direct ports. From what I've seen with Pokemon, they are encouraged to be bought together, one would think you would include that when you start making charts about how Pokemon single handly sold 14 million copies. Sketchy, very sketchy.

It's not sketchy at all. Pokemon encourages trading, not anti-social self indulging. The Wireless Adapter helps reinforce that stance.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

That's like telling developers that they can be lazy.

Like anything I am telling them matters currently!

And where does "lazy" come from in terms of describing developers? Some of the most mediocre games were made by hardworking people working tremendous hours. Ever hear the story of how ET was made?

It's not laziness, it's priority. And the gaming economy (and community) has rewarded two things consistently, whehter "casual" or "hardcore" focused-- and that's graphics and predictability. Look at the thread "another installment you'd like" for examples. People want predictability, and they want flashy graphics. Hence, that's what developers focus on, rather than gameplay issues or innovative design. Exceptions of course, but that's most of any of the markets. Those wanting to hold up the examples of better polish as better games are mired in so deep they're part of the problem.

 

[Deg]

This was on the msnbc website. Not worth bothering with as its one sided ignoring many facts.

 

[Cimarron]

*yawn*

The anime elitest gang is scream for blood tonite!

Personallly I am over joyed that the west has caught up with and surpassed the asian market. I remember back in the day dying for stuff to be translated and ported over to the states and sometimes not being brought over at all. Back and the 80's and 90's Japanese publishers made a lot of us westerners feel like red headed step children. I for one am glad I can play my Halo 2 and GTA:SA as soon as its released. That said I still adore my japanese games. Its personally killing me that I have to wait to play PSO:BB (and they still haven't decided if they want give us that.) and Xenosaga II. I just picked this poppy up last week. Its awesome!

 

[djtiesto]

Yeah, I personally think Western developers have gotten better on the console front in the past few years, but I see that more as the PC scene is slowly dying and there's more money to be made off of consoles. But, Western developers have still not even come close to the polish and game design of their Japanese brethren. The only Western made game that really grabbed me this generation was Prince of Persia, and even that has quite a few nagging issues with it (the combat, for one). The GTA games are shit that becomes boring after a few hours, and I don't like FPSes or "openended" RPGs.