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[joe_zazen]

Just a few things to remember before release of info:

• Successful Sony consoles have always been mid tier consumer grade hardware; their one cutting edge loss leader almost sunk the company.
• Sony requires PS to be profitable or their stock will tank. They cannot hide PS results like MS can xbox.
• MS is no longer under DoJ supervision despite being bigger than ever, therefore they can start to EEE (embrace extend and extinguish). That is, distort markets by offering unbeatable value untill competition dies. MS is standard oil in this scenario.
• Sony PlayStation management is in turmoil and has to answer to old Japanese business men.
• Xbox is finally leaning into pc gaming.
  
  
• I hate MS because they are American military contractors and therefore have the blood of countless innocents on their hands, all in the name of American Empire and continued tribute from 70% of the world. So these facts give me zero pleasur.

The above makes me think Sony’s gaming offerings will be inferior to MS’ in ever conceivable metric. Want cheapest games? MS. Want most exclusives? Xbox platform. Best BC? Xbox. Best streaming? Xbox. most powerful console? xboxsX. cheapest? Xbox series 4tb.

ms is in full shark mode unshackled by govt oversight. the richest always win when not under scrutiny, which is why we have responsive govt. So many instances in history...recent tech related ones include intel v amd mid 2000 and MS vs everyone late90s/ early 2000s.

anyway, my prediction is we will be calling 9-10TF ps5 the PoS5 by this time next gen and wondering whether sony can make a comeback. I’d be more than happyto be dead wrong, btw.

 

[FranXico]

The plot thickens...

That's fan fiction, not happening.

 

[FranXico]

Just a few things to remember before release of info:

• Successful Sony consoles have always been mid tier consumer grade hardware; their one cutting edge loss leader almost sunk the company.
• Sony requires PS to be profitable or their stock will tank. They cannot hide PS results like MS can xbox.
• MS is no longer under DoJ supervision despite being bigger than ever, therefore they can start to EEE (embrace extend and extinguish). That is, distort markets by offering unbeatable value untill competition dies. MS is standard oil in this scenario.
• Sony PlayStation management is in turmoil and has to answer to old Japanese business men.
• Xbox is finally leaning into pc gaming.
  
  
• I hate MS because they are American military contractors and therefore have the blood of countless innocents on their hands, all in the name of American Empire and continued tribute from 70% of the world. So these facts give me zero pleasur.

The above makes me think Sony’s gaming offerings will be inferior to MS’ in ever conceivable metric. Want cheapest games? MS. Want most exclusives? Xbox platform. Best BC? Xbox. Best streaming? Xbox. most powerful console? xboxsX. cheapest? Xbox series 4tb.

ms is in full shark mode unshackled by govt oversight. the richest always win when not under scrutiny, which is why we have responsive govt. So many instances in history...recent tech related ones include intel v amd mid 2000 and MS vs everyone late90s/ early 2000s.

anyway, my prediction is we will be calling 9-10TF ps5 the PoS5 by this time next gen and wondering whether sony can make a comeback. I’d be more than happyto be dead wrong, btw.

You, my friend, give me hope on mankind. Someone understands the consequences of what is about to happen.

Let's just hope enough costumers are wise enough to refuse MS another monopoly.

 

[JLMC469]

• Sony requires PS to be profitable or their stock will tank. They cannot hide PS results like MS can xbox.

This is just plain wrong. As a public company having stock in the NYSE (New York Stock Exchange), the SEC requires that all public companies (MSFT) divulge their financial data to the public.

I think your phrasing was incorrect.

 

[splattered]

You, my friend, give me hope on mankind. Someone understands the consequences of what is about to happen.

Let's just hope enough costumers are wise enough to refuse MS another monopoly.

Is this a Joke? Sony is currently like 2:1 with Microsoft with what 100 mil global PS4 sales and you're worried about Microsoft gaining traction and getting a foot ahead next gen?

It's perfectly FINE for Sony to blow MS & Nintendo out of the water but it would be TERRIBLE for Microsoft to become as competitive as possible offering consumers tons of purchase and service options gaining good will with the public again?

Sony fans are just straight up crazy lemmings man I don't get it.

You're telling me next gen is ONLY allowed to exist if PS5/XB2 are on exact same performance and price levels OR if Sony wins one or both and pulls out ahead 2:1 again?

Ooooook

 

[DeepEnigma]

We can see the orchestrated Twitter drama all too clearly now.

 

[FranXico]

Is this a Joke? Sony is currently like 2:1 with Microsoft with what 100 mil global PS4 sales and you're worried about Microsoft gaining traction and getting a foot ahead next gen?

It's perfectly FINE for Sony to blow MS & Nintendo out of the water but it would be TERRIBLE for Microsoft to become as competitive as possible offering consumers tons of purchase and service options gaining good will with the public again?

Sony fans are just straight up crazy lemmings man I don't get it.

You're telling me next gen is ONLY allowed to exist if PS5/XB2 are on exact same performance and price levels OR if Sony wins one or both and pulls out ahead 2:1 again?

Ooooook

You don't (or won't) understand the post I replied to. They are about to take over the industry. That is not just "being competitive". In case you didn't notice, it will end up badly for consumers.

But the consequences of an actual gaming industry MS monopoly are off-topic w.r.t. this thread. I won't continue that discussion here.

 

[ZywyPL]

The plot thickens...

If true, I have one question - still Jaguar or Zen?

You see, that's where all those so-called "insiders" lose any credibility for me - they change their "info" like a flag changes its direction during a tornado... We're talking about APUs, so if they really have some info on the GPU part they should as well know everything about the CPU, no? Or the memory controllers, whether it supports GDDR6, or is there an HBM support as well, as some of the rumors suggest? No, instead every now and then someone posts some codenames and numbers, and all of a sudden dozens of "insiders" show up, all with different stories...

But back to the topic - if Sony indeed intends to release a Zen+Navi based PS4, that will boost current games performance, AND will be able to play next-gen titles, just at lowered resolution, lowered details, no RT etc., all of it NOW, at 399, then that's a brilliant idea if you ask me, an equivalent of the rumored Lockhart but a year earlier, such a move would single-handedly crush Microsoft's strategy before they even get it running.

BUT, if true of course, if it would still use Jaguar, then what's the point really? That weak-ass CPU bottlenecks even the lowest-tier ~300Mbps SSDs, let alone anything decent, and would become obsolete literally 9 months later.

 

[policestationx]

We can see the orchestrated Twitter drama all too clearly now.

There is no drama than just an accurate specifications of the next gen dev kits that's close to final retail version.

 

[DeepEnigma]

There is no drama than just an accurate specifications of the next gen dev kits that's close to final retail version.

There was drama (why do you think this thread jumped so many pages in mere hours). All the people that are in that Twitter group, have been dropping “hints” on here and on twitter that something was coming for two weeks straight now. They orchestrated this off of data we already knew, that was old, and may not even be related. Data that contains no RT solution. They tried to pass it off as “new info”.

Those in that group roll in the MediaX twitter circle.

It was all hype, and ended with a wet fart, for now.

 

[CameFromNearFuture]

I do haver a feeling that megatons like 8gb gddr5 Will happen ALL over again and maybe even more serious

 

[Fake]

Saying no RT and denying any drama is beyond stupid at this point.

 

[HarryKS]

Times like these are when I'm glad I've grown out of being a dork. Scouring the internet for spreadsheets that look like this: Bimboom=BamBim<16>12-GU.PP . Series X Boom Flops, PS5 Badabim Flops.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Times like these are when I'm glad I've grown out of being a dork. Scouring the internet for spreadsheets that look like this: Bimboom=BamBim<16>12-GU.PP . Series X Boom Flops, PS5 Badabim Flops.

I am 52 years old and still enjoy reading about these flops, guess I am not grown up.

 

[Little Chicken]

Times like these are when I'm glad I've grown out of being a dork. Scouring the internet for spreadsheets that look like this: Bimboom=BamBim<16>12-GU.PP . Series X Boom Flops, PS5 Badabim Flops.

Im not going to judge him for his hobby because we finally got some concrete info out of it, but yeah...

I'll just stick to arguing on the internet in my spare time thank u very much

 

[Fake]

Is more like a revison of infamouns PRO design.

 

[mckmas8808]

A TFlop is a TFlop, performance wise.

NO IT IS NOT!

 

[Norse]

Even with everything that's been posted in this thread the past 24hrs I still believe ps5 and series X will be pretty much equal. Both will be strong imo. Hopefully by the end of February we will all know for sure.

 

[HarryKS]

I am 52 years old and still enjoy reading about these flops, guess I am not grown up.

The flops aren't the problem. The problem is the source of the speculation. It's insane. People are trying to draw blood from a rock.

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

A TFlop is a TFlop, performance wise.

That would be like saying a Mhz is a Mhz, which there is more to it that just that.

 

[xPikYx]

I remember in 2012 people used to think and leak it was impossible and too much for ps4 to have 8gddr5 memory. Now ps5 will be 9tf and 399......
I believe ps5 will come in two versions like phones. Normale version 499$ and pro version 800$
Have you ever seen a market leader coming out with tge less powerful and more profitable choice? Apparently this happens for you guys in console world space, AFAIK the market leader is either the most powerful and the more pricey, but everybody all of a sudden have money to buy their products, no worries, sony can easily do a 800$ console if the performance smashes your jaws

 

[Darius87]

NO IT IS NOT!

IT IS! t's measurment! efficiency is measured by % compared to previous architectures so it's 2 different things tflops and efficiency so there's no my tflop is better then yours, it should be more like my architecture is more efficient then yours.

 

[Little Chicken]

Have you ever seen a market leader coming out with tge less powerful and more profitable choice?

Nintendo

 

[xPikYx]

1 kg of Iron is heavier than 1kg of feathers.. Do you really believe that casual people know tge difference between GCN and NAvi flops in terms of efficiency? From a PR perspective what count is the raw number. Having less than stadia is a market failure, so let's be clear on these, none of them, Microsoft and Sony will deliver a less perform-looking console, both will have within 1 and 3 tf more, only for PR matters

 

[R600]

Saying no RT and denying any drama is beyond stupid at this point.

No one is saying it has no RT, it just doesnt specify it in test (data is from internal AMD test).

Its a very sensitive thing put on public space as there could be alot of very high level info, so it would be good for owner to remove it asap.

 

[mckmas8808]

There was drama (why do you think this thread jumped so many pages in mere hours). All the people that are in that Twitter group, have been dropping “hints” on here and on twitter that something was coming for two weeks straight now. They orchestrated this off of data we already knew, that was old, and may not even be related. Data that contains no RT solution. They tried to pass it off as “new info”.

Those in that group roll in the MediaX twitter circle.

It was all hype, and ended with a wet fart, for now.

WHOA! You are right. It really does seem orchestrated now. It's like they are cross-posting on Twitter and GAF at the same time.

 

[MadAnon]

If Sparkman is not the supposed Lockhart (that BW is too high for a weaker console) then why such a weird codename compared to Arden? Sparkman has nothing to do with Shakespeare.

That Sparkman BW leak is confusing me.

 

[mckmas8808]

IT IS! t's measurment! efficiency is measured by % compared to previous architectures so it's 2 different things tflops and efficiency so there's no my tflop is better then yours, it should be more like my architecture is more efficient then yours.

In practicality that is what (the part that I bolded) we are saying. We are just relaying this information through TF numbers, because it's easier for people to understand. It's very possible that the PS5 is a 10TF console, that performs like a 13 TF GCN GPU (of today's architecture).

And it's VERY likely this is what KLEE was talking about when he said the numbers may look disappointing at first, but the performance will blow us away. From my understanding, the Nvidia 2080Ti pushes 13.4 TFs and costs $1,000 when it launched. Nobody a year ago thought we'd get the equivalent of a 2080Ti with a 1TF SSD (with 4 GBs speeds), and a 100 GB Bluray drive. And all for possibility $399.

 

[DeepEnigma]

WHOA! You are right. It really does seem orchestrated now. It's like they are cross-posting on Twitter and GAF at the same time.

That’s exactly what was going on.

 

[xPikYx]

So basically these people, based on I don't know what kind of logic they used to match codenemes with actual machines, are saying that Mark Cerny, the one who is projecting ps5, is a liar, that actually is not true that ps5 will ha HW raytracing, that the market leader in console gaming with best studios in the world, will come out with a console without the most dreamed feature of modern 3d graphic, already launched on the market by nVidia 2 years ago, nearly launched by AMD in coming 2020 (consoles' gpu supplier)... Right?

I give you the benefits of the doubt, Sony might have a proprietary solution for that

 

[R600]

So basically these people, based on I don't know what kind of logic they used to match codenemes with actual machines, are saying that Mark Cerny, the one who is projecting ps5, is a liar, that actually is not true that ps5 will ha HW raytracing, that the market leader in console gaming with best studios in the world, will come out with a console without the most dreamed feature of modern 3d graphic, already launched on the market by nVidia 2 years ago, nearly launched by AMD in coming 2020 (consoles' gpu supplier)... Right?

I give you the benefits of the doubt, Sony might have a proprietary solution for that

Source from which Oberon data came from makes no mention of RT, not because its non existant, but because its not about RT at all.

 

[pawel86ck]

He never said any particular number, he never even mentioned TFlops to begin with, those 12TF are just fanboys' wet dreams.

But hey, people can believe in what they want to believe, but then again, they have no right to blame others once they face the foreseeable disappointment.

I dont believe exact GPU clock is set in stone just yet, they still have a time for small tweaks (like they have did with xbox one GPU clock). But even if Phil Spencer would know exact specification right now he has no reason to tell it one year before launch, because it can only backfire on MS.

I expect 12TF not because it's minimum to run modern games at 4K 60fps (although VRS boost should help) but because Phil Spencer has clearly talked about TFLOPS. He asked people to do the math, so cant you see implications of that? He could only talk about TFLOPS, and on top of that GPU power is measured in FLOPS. Architecture gains looks different in each game, so you cant add them so easily (not to mention RDNA2 GPU's arnt even out yet, so people cant add anything anyway ). If you look at numbers Phil Spencer has provided (over 8x times xbox one and 2x xbox x) 12TF Navi GPU fits perfectly, but if you assume he was thinking about GCN Vega TFLOPS then you will get two totally different and strange performance levels, therefore people can be 100% sure he wasnt talking about architecture gains. No wonder Even Richard Leadbetter is in team 12TF now, because if you dont ignore facts, 12TF is a given.

You say only fanboys expect 12TF LOL . Man, my old GPU had exactly 12TF and it was barely enough to run PS4 ports at 4K and 60fps with console settings. So no, not even 12TF in a console one year from now will impress me, and especially if MS will ask 599 euro for their premium console. However I have no doubts developers will make amazing looking games with right compromises or interesting art direction even on 12TFLOPS GPU. There's a big difference between art direction and actual technology used in games. Better technology requires more HW resources (more TFLOPS) while art direction is more about talent.

 

[mckmas8808]

So basically these people, based on I don't know what kind of logic they used to match codenemes with actual machines, are saying that Mark Cerny, the one who is projecting ps5, is a liar, that actually is not true that ps5 will ha HW raytracing, that the market leader in console gaming with best studios in the world, will come out with a console without the most dreamed feature of modern 3d graphic, already launched on the market by nVidia 2 years ago, nearly launched by AMD in coming 2020 (consoles' gpu supplier)... Right?

I give you the benefits of the doubt, Sony might have a proprietary solution for that

But then you'd have to ask yourself why Sony would design a proprietary solution for something that they are supposed to design with AMD. Everybody is saying Sony is basically co-designing the next APU with AMD. So why spend even more money on the side for a RT solution and not share it with AMD?

Especially considering that AMD and Sony will have a relationship with each other in the future. PLUS.....how can that mess up BC on future consoles? Couldn't this be CELL all over again?

 

[xPikYx]

Source from which Oberon data came from makes no mention of RT, not because its non existant, but because its not about RT at all.

Fine, what I don't understand is the logic to match those codename with next Gen consoles
So
Lockhart
Oberon
Gonzalo
Ariel
Arden
Some name I forgot

5+ codename 2 maybe 3 next gen consoles, 1 of these has already a name and not included in the code names (add Scarlett as your liking)

Something is wrong here

 

[xPikYx]

But then you'd have to ask yourself why Sony would design a proprietary solution for something that they are supposed to design with AMD. Everybody is saying Sony is basically co-designing the next APU with AMD. So why spend even more money on the side for a RT solution and not share it with AMD?

Especially considering that AMD and Sony will have a relationship with each other in the future. PLUS.....how can that mess up BC on future consoles? Couldn't this be CELL all over again?

Well don't ask me, people after recent rumors are saying that. I'm still in rdna2 team

 

[Primordialform]

Old data then. As I suspected, test results, with a lot of interpretation thrown in. Just would not guess that it is that old.

Hard to take anything seriously any more.

The chip in question doesn't even have RT. Cerny confirmed RT in PS5's GPU. Who knows what this test was even conducted for.

What Schreier, Klee, Reiner, Matt, Osiris etc. said is still on the table. A 12-14TF PS5.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Well don't ask me, people after recent rumors are saying that. I'm still in rdna2 team

You only need to follow the trail of those that were pushing this so hard on Twitter, and creating accounts on here around the “hint drops” leading up to this.

 

[TheTechnician]

WHOA! You are right. It really does seem orchestrated now. It's like they are cross-posting on Twitter and GAF at the same time.

We can see the orchestrated Twitter drama all too clearly now.

You are right. It was clearly orchestrated, i pointed it out Pages ago in middle of the turmoil.

also i want to say that to me this whole night ( i keep saying night because that what it was in Germany) leakage lookes like an orchestrated stab at sony to me. With all the Xbox Mouthpieces right at hand cheering and all the encouragement on that _rogame twitter :,, do more do more!" - as they all already knew what he was about to post. Wich off course means they sticked their heads togheter beforehand. I would be not so confindent in your Place..
Pride comes before a fall, isn´t it?

And now we learn that their info is from June. So old tech. Wich makes it understandable that there is no Raytracing Hardware/ Funktions .. That comes with they new iteration of Oberon @ RDNA²
They tried to fool everyone and they will pay for it.

 

[Fake]

From resetera and reddit:

here is the context they aren't giving you:
This info is not datamined from drivers
It is not related to devkits
It is not complete so I wouldn’t read into “missing features.” It’s not a spec sheet
It is from internal AMD performance testing documents inadvertently posted publicly
They cover some specific set of test cases mostly comparing Ariel and Oberon results
It is dated June/July and is the same source for info “leaked” around that time

The poor sap who uploaded it will surely be fired regardless but I won't link to it because it contains personal data including their resume. It only took like 30 minutes to find, just search for it -- this guy has been quoting whole pieces verbatim

Since people keep quoting this I'll add my later disclaimer:
to be clear I have zero opinion on the usefulness of this data or applicability (if any) to the retail PS5. It's detailed to an extremely low level and at the same time a bit of a mess with gaps at the high level. I am glad there are people smarter than me who can read the tea leaves from it. I just think everyone should have the context of what it is and isn't instead of debating for 50 pages whether it is real (it is)

Also, rogame later explained where the data comes from so this post isn't really helpful anymore

How is a Lockhart gonna have more bandwidth than a PS5?

So this post is curious. Why isn't it quoted more?

Because people want a narrative to fit their view. It's still super early like others have said, developers wont have final devkits for a while still.

reddit Topic has been deleted...

 

[DeepEnigma]

You are right. It was clearly orchestrated, i pointed it out Pages ago in middle of the turmoil.



And now we learn that their info is from June. So old tech. Wich makes it understandable that there is no Raytracing Hardware/ Funktions .. That comes with they new iteration of Oberon @ RDNA²
They tried to fool everyone and they will pay for it.

Yep, it’s called FUD. What a coincidence that it was coming out of the inventor of the acronym’s most ardent fans on Twitter.

Hmmm

 

[xPikYx]

You only need to follow the trail of those that were pushing this so hard on Twitter, and creating accounts on here around the “hint drops” leading up to this.

 

[rsouzadk]

That would be like saying a Mhz is a Mhz, which there is more to it that just that.

I know that.

NO IT IS NOT!

Yes, it is a measure of computer performance, whether you like or don't.

 

[Little Chicken]

These conspiracy theories are a little ridiculous. People are paying attention to rogame because he's a well known data miner.

It doesn't surprise me at all that gaming forum members also engage people on Twitter.

(As an aside, I don't have a Twitter account because I think it's horrendous)

 

[Racer!]

NO IT IS NOT!

Yes it is.

It is an industry wide measurement unit used across brands and architectures for measuring floating point calculations. The atoms of the construction that are games.

You are confusing it with the layout of those atoms, which depends on what you are trying to build. There is no single measurement unit for all builds (other than TFlops). Good luck doing the math on that.

 

[Dory16]

That's exactly what I think, it lines up with what Spencer said about SEX being 8 times faster than the base Xbox One.

It also lines up with what we have been hearing about SEX being just a tiny bit less powerful in the GPU but a bit more powerful in the CPU!

It's obviously in or around 9 - 10 of the RDNA metric of TFlops for both.

That’s right bro. Digital Foundry had it all wrong. If the PS5 is weak, Xbox has to be weaker. A world where the opposite happens is impossible. How dare they?

 

[Imtjnotu]

Nintendo

PS1. Ps2. Wii......

 

[DJ12]

Fine, what I don't understand is the logic to match those codename with next Gen consoles
So
Lockhart
Oberon
Gonzalo
Ariel
Arden
Some name I forgot

5+ codename 2 maybe 3 next gen consoles, 1 of these has already a name and not included in the code names (add Scarlett as your liking)

Something is wrong here

The Twitter guy Komachi or whatever his name is thought this is familiar to what I've seen before this must be ps5.

Other than his best guess there is no actual evidence. But people say it often enough and it becomes fact.

 

[Dory16]

Same thing can of course apply to Microsoft as well. Unless Microsoft had their final hardware revision devkits out before Sony did? There is as yet no proof that XSX is 12TF. Only vague statements that the CPU is 4x faster and the GPU is 2x faster.


How can you be sure that image was Scarlett's actual motherboard? Hopefully it is, because that should offer a nice amount of bandwidth, though I'd have preferred a 384-bit bus personally.

Hopefully Rogame can get some more details for Arden/Sparkman. Seems to be an abundance for Oberon, but nothing on the other side.

The wait will be long. I’ll consider both consoles on parity until the official reveals. The lack of official information and abundance of rumours makes up for too much potential manipulation.

 

[xPikYx]

If you compare hellblade2 with godfall by the way it looks that way (XSX 12tf PS5 9tf)

 

[Little Chicken]

So basically these people, based on I don't know what kind of logic they used to match codenemes with actual machines, are saying that Mark Cerny, the one who is projecting ps5, is a liar, that actually is not true that ps5 will ha HW raytracing, that the market leader in console gaming with best studios in the world, will come out with a console without the most dreamed feature of modern 3d graphic, already launched on the market by nVidia 2 years ago, nearly launched by AMD in coming 2020 (consoles' gpu supplier)... Right?

I give you the benefits of the doubt, Sony might have a proprietary solution for that

I don't think people are saying Mark is a liar, nor that the PS5 would ship without the bells and whistles their competitors are (supposedly) adding to their hardware, but he also isn't a wizard who can create whatever he wants, same goes for the MS team, they're given a budget and a tight framework to work within.

It's not just raw performance they have to consider:

Heat
Cooling
Wattage
Noise
Durability
Compatibility
Materials
Aesthetic design
Packaging
Warehousing
Shipping
Marketing
Distribution

...all with a fancy new controller bundled.

I feel like people have let their expectations run away like they did in 2013, and it's probably for the best for all to temper expectations a little, nobody is getting 14TFs 74CU with 22GB HBM2 RAM and a 50GB/s nvme ssd in a cute little black box all for $499USD, this fantasy console would be much more expensive, even when taking a loss on each unit sold.

Having said that, whoever builds that I'll buy on day 1