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[Hobbygaming]

That is the last time i talk to you about Ray TRacing
Ouroboros effect is annoying sorry
Cerny says There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware
Nothing to do with RTRT,or tensor style kind of dedicated core in GPU
You dont believe AMD?
AMD says RT is built in in GPU
But RT built in in GPU by AMD means clearly GPU intersection acceleration library with basic support for heterogeneous systems
Cerny talks about API support to Ray TRacing
Never point out RT core in GPU,just acceleration support in the GPU hardware

Why do I feel like if Mark Cerny came out and said that they are using RT cores, that you guys would then come up with more wording to say it's different

 

[SenjutsuSage]

That is how many people make money:

Talking some already known facts, add bullshit, sound reasonable = many think that this sounds legit, and he gots lot of followers so must be trustwortht

Same shit goes on aliens/bigfoot/other weird shit area, some dudes make tons of money by sounding reasonable

Thing is, anybody with certain skills/traits can talk shit and make it sound right.

As you said, you are new listener.

So, logically if we assume that here are people that have been following his stuff for longer time and concluded that he isnt trustworthy:

A: you should trust him "because he sounds reasonable"

B: should not trusth him because other people know the truth(assuming they arent lying)

There are millions/billions of people that believe in fairytales (religions) because "it sounds reasonable"

Millions of kids believe in a fat dude that brings them gifts because that is what their parents said and it sounded reasonable

My point is:

They make money from it, so they can sound reasonable 100% but that means nothing, only naive and gullible would take that as proof. And people like that pay their salary.

People even defend them because of human nature, it is easier to defend and believe someone whom has fame & sounds legit, than someone random that says they are scammers.

Kind of like when man tries to tell his female friend that the guy tries to hit on her is an asshole: she just thinks that he is jealous and doesnt believe, because "he sounds and acts like a reasonable Guy".. until truth later comes out

i can not necessarily believe most of what he is saying about insider news, although all of it seems pretty credible so far. Only started listening since series x reveal, such as info he gave on sea of thieves loading being dropped to 3-5 seconds. I just enjoy the discussion so far. So far they're saying what I always thought as an xbox fan and what I felt Microsoft needed to do better. I was at E3 2016 and E3 2017 where i attended the xbox briefing, and both times I came away critical of what I felt were a lack of big new AAA experiences. I tried not to be too harsh, but I spoke more bluntly to fellow xbox fans. Something just felt off, and it looks like they're aiming to fix them now.

 

[Dim]

Why do I feel like if Mark Cerny came out and said that they are using RT cores, that you guys would then come up with more wording to say it's different

Your problem
My problem is how you take something as evidence when even Mark Cerny denied to speak clearly at the moment??????????
I am not against to have RT cores the problem is how you can be so sure to a matter that even Cerny for his personal-company reasons denied to be clear on his statement????????

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Why do I feel like if Mark Cerny came out and said that they are using RT cores, that you guys would then come up with more wording to say it's different

AMD has said PS5 has hardware ray tracing?

Here’s the article where Mark confirms it is hardware based.

Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5

Now that the name is official, we've got more details about Sony's next-gen console—from the haptics-packed controller to UI improvements.

www.wired.com

The problem I have with this is he didn't strike me as all that confident about it. I know it might seem silly, but Microsoft and AMD have basically been screaming hardware ray tracing from the mountain tops for Xbox series X, whereas Sony so far strikes me as if they may know they don't really have it, and are trying to not discuss the subject very much. If I'm wrong, I'll take the l, but I will need more clear proof that PS5 truly supports hardware ray tracing. Something just doesn't seem all the way right with their messaging on it.

Again, will take his word for it, but I have to be honest I have strong doubts based on the information we've gotten so far. Maybe the information is wrong. Sony can set the record straight soon.

 

[Deuterium]

It is simply amazing that an entire group of people cannot accept the (strong) possibility that the new Xbox will be significantly more powerful than the PS5.

 

[Reindeer]

I think it would have been better if next gen consoles were launched in 2021 with 14+ tflop GPUs, better ray tracing, 20 gig memory and 2tb NVMe. We could have easily waited a year and gotten real beasts that could do 4K60 without any problems. Right now it feels like we are getting somewhat underpowered (for 4K60) consoles with very limited ray tracing and storage space. We'll also probably have to deal with a lot of dynamic and sub 4K resolutions. If both Sony and Microsoft wanted true next gen jump then they could have waited a year.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Your problem
My problem is how you take something as evidence when even Mark Cerny denied to speak clearly at the moment??????????
I am not against to have RT cores the problem is how you can be so sure to a matter that even Cerny for his personal-company reasons denied to be clear on his statement????????

I think the 1st time he listed raytracing as a bullet point he figured people would know that he was talking about hardware raytracing, since PS4 could already do some raytracing

 

[DeepEnigma]

Cant follow you, who announced PS5 hardware first and what it has to do with my point?
No offense, just dont see the sense of your post
I talk about the 36CU rumour and how valid it is..

You said you were worried about their silence. They were the first of the two, to announce the architectures inside.

I said don't worry about their silence, since it's a part of their strategy. They are not going to comment on speculation and rumors

 

[bitbydeath]

AMD has said PS5 has hardware ray tracing?


The problem I have with this is he didn't strike me as all that confident about it. I know it might seem silly, but Microsoft and AMD have basically been screaming hardware ray tracing from the mountain tops for Xbox series X, whereas Sony so far strikes me as if they may know they don't really have it, and are trying to not discuss the subject very much. If I'm wrong, I'll take the l, but I will need more clear proof that PS5 truly supports hardware ray tracing. Something just doesn't seem all the way right with their messaging on it.

Again, will take his word for it, but I have to be honest I have strong doubts based on the information we've gotten so far. Maybe the information is wrong. Sony can set the record straight soon.

The article literally responds to concerns people had of it not being hardware based Ray-Tracing. It’s not an off the cuff remark.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Your problem
My problem is how you take something as evidence when even Mark Cerny denied to speak clearly at the moment??????????
I am not against to have RT cores the problem is how you can be so sure to a matter that even Cerny for his personal-company reasons denied to be clear on his statement????????

Did you ever stop to consider that he did not get into detail because it's for AMD to announce their architecture solution for RT at the coming CES?

Just like AMD didn't blow the load last year with full details of what is in the consoles since that is for Sony and MS to announce as well.

It's respecting your partners and marketing strategy.

 

[TheTechnician]

You said you were worried about their silence. They were the first of the two, to announce the architectures inside.

I said don't worry about their silence, since it's a part of their strategy. They are not going to comment on speculation and rumors

Ah ok,
While the remaining silence argument makes some sense. On the same time it does not..
This below 9TF talk picked up speed since those internal test got leaked..
One would assume that the very least they activate some mouthpieces to add some noise....
Like I said , to me it looks like there's is nothing Sony could say to make it sound better...
But yeah there is still the small hope that Sony will surprise once more...
Hope CES brings a PS5 tease or more...

 

[DeepEnigma]

Ah ok,
While the remaining silence argument makes some sense. On the same time it does not..
This below 9TF talk picked up speed since those internal test got leaked..
One would assume that the very least they activate some mouthpieces to add some noise....
Like I said , to me it looks like there's is nothing Sony could say to make it sound better...
But yeah the is still the small hope that Sony will surprise once more...
Hope CES brings a PS5 tease or more...

Other than have it disproven when specs are revealed. We will all find out soon enough if true or.not.

 

[Dim]

Did you ever stop to consider that he did not get into detail because it's for AMD to announce their architecture solution for RT at the coming CES?

Just like AMD didn't blow the load last year with full details of what is in the consoles since that is for Sony and MS to announce as well.

It's respecting your partners and marketing strategy.

Is just a speculation,and is many others speculations.
To talk about a RT core existence is not a big secret by AMD or GPU technology,but also he avoid to use the word hardware.
I consider all and i say i dont know.
I just say to some people in room to stop take a speculation as a fact and drive away the discussion to RDNA2 just based on a speculation about RT HW on GPU.
Did you ever consider that speculations is like the assh@les and everybody have one?
I never say Sony have or dont have RT,i cant know that ,i just say the statement is not clear so the truth is not white or black there is a plenty of colours as the speculations too
If you want to see the glass half full is your point of view ,if you want see it half empty is your matter,half is half and Cerny statement is half so you can go to farther speculations

 

[DeepEnigma]

Is just a speculation,and is many others speculations.
To talk about a RT core existence is not a big secret by AMD or GPU technology,but also he avoid to use the word hardware.
I consider all and i say i dont know.
I just say to some people in room to stop take a speculation as a fact and drive away the discussion to RDNA2 just based on a speculation about RT HW on GPU.
Did you ever consider that speculations is like the assh@les and everybody have one?
I never say Sony have or dont have RT,i cant know that ,i just say the statement is not clear so the truth is not white or black there is a plenty of colours as the speculations too
If you want to see the glass half full is your point of view ,if you want see it half empty is your matter,half is half and Cerny statement is half so you can go to farther speculations

Hence me adding another perspective layer of speculaton.

 

[-kb-]

I think it is quite likely that both has raytracing hardware in the GPUs to a significant degree that is similar or the same to the AMD patent for RDNA2. It makes no sense to not have it when the IP already exists and they are already working with AMD on future technologies.

If the PS5 lacked raytracing hardware the SoC would be smaller then it is and they could most likely back in more CUs then they have. IIRC raytracing makes the GPU ~5-8% bigger. It makes absolutely no sense not to add it.

 

[captainraincoat]

Really don't get the fascination with Ray tracing.....it makes most pcs slow and it only offers a really marginal visual upgrade

 

[SenjutsuSage]

It is simply amazing that an entire group of people cannot accept the (strong) possibility that the new Xbox will be significantly more powerful than the PS5.

Even I as a major xbox first gamer wants PS5 to be more powerful than 9.2. I'll own one, too, but I fully expect it will be more than enough for next gen games. It will have plenty power to do incredible things. Look at sony's first party titles on ps4 and ps4 pro now. God of War, Horizon, Uncharted 4, Last of Us 2, Ghosts of Tsushima etc.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Really don't get the fascination with Ray tracing.....it makes most pcs slow and it only offers a really marginal visual upgrade

You don't think eating up a system's power by 30% is worth making a torch give off more accurate shadows against dungeon rock?

 

[Nickolaidas]

You don't think eating up a system's power by 30% is worth making a torch give off more accurate shadows against dungeon rock?

To be fair ….

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Really don't get the fascination with Ray tracing.....it makes most pcs slow and it only offers a really marginal visual upgrade

Marginal? You must not have seen what it does in Metro Exodus and Control. It definitely isn't marginal. We will see how it gets used on the new consoles. More than likely lower resolution options with ray tracing enabled, followed by higher resolution normal options. I'm excited as hell to see how AMD handles ray tracing.

 

[psorcerer]

The problem I have with this is he didn't strike me as all that confident about it. I know it might seem silly, but Microsoft and AMD have basically been screaming hardware ray tracing from the mountain tops for Xbox series X, whereas Sony so far strikes me as if they may know they don't really have it, and are trying to not discuss the subject very much. If I'm wrong, I'll take the l, but I will need more clear proof that PS5 truly supports hardware ray tracing. Something just doesn't seem all the way right with their messaging on it.

MSFT tries to convert PCMR folk. That's why they cry about non-existing hardware ray tracing. The only thing that exists in hardware right now is Nvidia "solution" which is just intersection calculations module. Everything else in NV solution is software and caches. Probably Mark understands that it cannot be called "hardware ray tracing" even for NV.

 

[-kb-]

Marginal? You must not have seen what it does in Metro Exodus and Control. It definitely isn't marginal. We will see how it gets used on the new consoles. More than likely lower resolution options with ray tracing enabled, followed by higher resolution normal options. I'm excited as hell to see how AMD handles ray tracing.

just read the patent they have put out with regards to raytracing it’s pretty much guaranteed to be that. It’s similar to Nvidia where it’s hardware intersection unit. I also wouldn’t be on you getting a raytracing and not a non raytracing option, that’s a lot of extra work in QA and other testing for marginal benefits.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

MSFT tries to convert PCMR folk. That's why they cry about non-existing hardware ray tracing. The only thing that exists in hardware right now is Nvidia "solution" which is just intersection calculations module. Everything else in NV solution is software and caches. Probably Mark understands that it cannot be called "hardware ray tracing" even for NV.

I guess I can see that. Either way, it's legitimate hardware acceleration of an important aspect of getting ray tracing to work and performance tanks badly on GPUs not equipped with the adequate hardware. We're likely still a gen away from proper use where it's more regular, or maybe even 2, but I'm glad that at least now it's an option for us. Some dev will do something neat with it I'm sure. I mean, look at Metro Exodus devs.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

just read the patent they have put out with regards to raytracing it’s pretty much guaranteed to be that. It’s similar to Nvidia where it’s hardware intersection unit. I also wouldn’t be on you getting a raytracing and not a non raytracing option, that’s a lot of extra work in QA and other testing for marginal benefits.

Still don't consider the benefits marginal (far from it in fact) in the games that utilize it best. It was a game changer in Control and in Metro Exodus.



Skip to 14:20. It's incredible.

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

Daedalic CEO: PS5 Will Be Huge; I Think Microsoft Is Doing Some Things Better Than in the Past

Daedalic CEO Carsten Fichtelmann recently said the PlayStation 5 will be huge. He added that Microsoft is doing 'some things' better now.

wccftech.com

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

If only....

 

[SenjutsuSage]

If only....

I wish. Can you imagine first party ps5 games on that thing?

 

[bitbydeath]

If only....

That AMD github leak was right afterall.

 

[bitbydeath]

Here’s the rumour it was talking about.

Link

 

[captainraincoat]

Marginal? You must not have seen what it does in Metro Exodus and Control. It definitely isn't marginal. We will see how it gets used on the new consoles. More than likely lower resolution options with ray tracing enabled, followed by higher resolution normal options. I'm excited as hell to see how AMD handles ray tracing.

Control ran like shit .....and metro did look good but to be honest if it meant more frames per second I would rather that

 

[Red_Driver85]

Can you imagine first party ps5 games on that thing?

I have no idea, because 14.2 TFlops, and even in such a delusional configuration, will not happen. The fans have some kind of teraflops aggravation.

 

[Lort]

Here’s the rumour it was talking about.

Link

If this is true then Sony will be going with a PRO and a non Pro model at launch ( which I suggested was their best approach).

$600 is not a plan to transition customers quickly like they said they are doing.

 

[bitbydeath]

If this is true then Sony will be going with a PRO and a non Pro model at launch ( which I suggested was their best approach).

$600 is not a plan to transition customers quickly like they said they are doing.

I still don’t believe it but that was the actual AMD leak everyone else claims as true but then ignores one of the GPU’s in the leak. (Oberon and Ariel)

 

[R600]

That tweet is hard to understand, but unrelated for PS5/SeX, does anyone here know the ballpark timeline for console specs to be basically locked and loaded? I'm not talking about maybe some slight tweaks that are doable like a harddrive bump or something that can be done without messing with the archtecture.

So in this date timeline.....

xxxxx = Locked and loaded specs. No more tweaks. Need to order all the parts to make it
xxxxx = Parts all ready to go. Console maker can now start mass producing them for shipment
xxxxx = Launch batches made (probably a few million to start off). Console maker now starts shipping these around the world
xxxxx = Stores get all the consoles ready to put on shelves. Need time to distribute to stores and prep shelves and pile up console boxes in stores
Nov 2020 = Launch day. Gamers can buy it

Cerny said 2 years before release hardware is locked - meaning only small changes to clocks and memory speeds can be changed. Actual chip makeup is no no.

Since PS5 actual dev kits have been out since summer ( V type), Sony probably had early version of a silicon sometimes in May. Obviously, they will start mass production around March because there is a need for a build up of inventory, so next gen chips are most certainly about to be tapedout. thats kind of a timeline.

 

[Darius87]

Is just a speculation,and is many others speculations.
To talk about a RT core existence is not a big secret by AMD or GPU technology,but also he avoid to use the word hardware.
I consider all and i say i dont know.
I just say to some people in room to stop take a speculation as a fact and drive away the discussion to RDNA2 just based on a speculation about RT HW on GPU.
Did you ever consider that speculations is like the assh@les and everybody have one?
I never say Sony have or dont have RT,i cant know that ,i just say the statement is not clear so the truth is not white or black there is a plenty of colours as the speculations too
If you want to see the glass half full is your point of view ,if you want see it half empty is your matter,half is half and Cerny statement is half so you can go to farther speculations

PS5 already supports hardware RT confirmed by Cerny, doesn't really matter how it's implemented if it does same job. so what's so unclear for you?

 

[R600]

The big mystery is Vang Gogh
Is APU,Is custom=Console/gaming laptop
And is RDNA2
Is No.1 thing i wait to hear about in CES

VanGogh has same range as Renoir - therefore likely notebook chip (many speculate Apple)

 

[bitbydeath]

Cerny said 2 years before release hardware is locked - meaning only small changes to clocks and memory speeds can be changed. Actual chip makeup is no no.

Since PS5 actual dev kits have been out since summer ( V type), Sony probably had early version of a silicon sometimes in May. Obviously, they will start mass production around March because there is a need for a build up of inventory, so next gen chips are most certainly about to be tapedout. thats kind of a timeline.

That’d be an on-paper lock. Not hardware physically exists for two years type lock. History dictates this.

 

[TLZ]

If only....

I wish. Can you imagine first party ps5 games on that thing?

That AMD github leak was right afterall.

Here’s the rumour it was talking about.

Link

I have no idea, because 14.2 TFlops, and even in such a delusional configuration, will not happen. The fans have some kind of teraflops aggravation.

If this is true then Sony will be going with a PRO and a non Pro model at launch ( which I suggested was their best approach).

$600 is not a plan to transition customers quickly like they said they are doing.

I still don’t believe it but that was the actual AMD leak everyone else claims as true but then ignores one of the GPU’s in the leak. (Oberon and Ariel)

Guys, ignore that rumor. I uhh... "Shamelessly" created it on pastebin back in June to test how real some insiders were and how media outlets would report on it. BastienTech on Twitter put it on Twitter and it spread like wildfire on Reddit and elsewhere. There was an influx of pastebins back then too. Just rubbish everywhere.

Basically it proved to me you can't trust just anyone. Anyone takes any rumor and runs with it for the clicks, attention etc.

 

[Rightisright]

Actually to think about it, Death Stranding looks more impressive in its cutscenes, so does Last of Us 2. There's also Ghost of Tshushima. The image quality is the only point of argument.

And animation.

 

[Rightisright]

Xbox doesnt have anything together at all yet, we giving them praise because they showed a console and a trailer for a game that's not coming out for three years?

Ill start giving them praise when they ellie something compelling worth of purchasing, to start some actual critically acclaimed games for starters.

Yah, kinda missed my point.

 

[R600]

I think it is quite likely that both has raytracing hardware in the GPUs to a significant degree that is similar or the same to the AMD patent for RDNA2. It makes no sense to not have it when the IP already exists and they are already working with AMD on future technologies.

If the PS5 lacked raytracing hardware the SoC would be smaller then it is and they could most likely back in more CUs then they have. IIRC raytracing makes the GPU ~5-8% bigger. It makes absolutely no sense not to add it.

Actually for RTX RT cores only add ~8% on actual core cluster, not entire GPU.

Same implementation would mean for 40CU Navi, this would be around ~8-10mm² more.

 

[Dim]

PS5 already supports hardware RT confirmed by Cerny, doesn't really matter how it's implemented if it does same job. so what's so unclear for you?

Cerny say Ray Traycing acceleration in GPU ,no Hardware RT Support,a hardware RT no need support
AMD says from Vega Gpus that support is built in cause RT acceleration is GPU intersection acceleration library with basic support for heterogeneous systems.
So i think is something unclear to you because you cant judge a book by last page,go back and read all conversation t make it clear to your self

 

[R600]

That’d be an on-paper lock. Not hardware physically exists for two years type lock. History dictates this.

It doesnt, but it means many months of actually designing the chip has been done and prepared for creation of specific chip. While 2yrs before chip is still not physically created, entire design is done. Whatever Sony delivered this summer in those V dev kits is an actual APU.

 

[bitbydeath]

It doesnt, but it means many months of actually designing the chip has been done and prepared for creation of specific chip. While 2yrs before chip is still not physically created, entire design is done. Whatever Sony delivered this summer in those V dev kits is an actual APU.

That’s what I said. Do you still believe in the dual gpu AMD leak or have you moved on from that?

 

[Rightisright]

The creators of Forza are thee only studio that was consistent and kept xbox as a brand afloat this generation, and thats a low bar to begin with because I hate racing games and dont play them but I recognize talent when I see it.

Thats why its going to be really interesting to see what their first parties come out with this next gen. They have brought alot of talent in, and there will be more to come.

 

[R600]

That’s what I said. Do you still believe in the dual gpu AMD leak or have you moved on from that?

AMD leak says nothing about dual leak though.

 

[bitbydeath]

AMD leak says nothing about dual leak though.

Yes it does. Oberon and Ariel makes two.

 

[Rightisright]

Ok, calm down people.
It's not like MS shoved more money at AMD so they got access to their backroom wich contained AMD's full roadmap for the future and MS saw RDNA 2.0 on the chalkboard and ofc said; "We want that!"
Sony on the other hand, with somewhat shallower pockets than MS, only got access to their front desk and after the meeting with the receptionist, ended up shopping RDNA 1.0.

Seriously, both MS and Sony had the same data in the bag after meeting with AMD. In NO WAY would Sony choose an older architecture over the newest available RDNA2. Am I saying that PS5 will be 12TF, on pair with Series X? Hell no, what I AM certain of is that they wouldn't go all-in on an older architecture. If, for some strange reason they are, it will at least be a rly good reason for it.

PS5 will be RDNA2 with GPU TF comparable to the Series X, but with a much better SSD solution. MS have traditionally just used shelfware without much proprietary changes. Sony are more known for tweaking things to their liking (i.e 8 ACE's on PS4 compared to the One's 2)

Both consoles will be great, but I'm afraid the MS fanboys will taste some salty tears come february...

Yeah, that FP16 was just so dominant. It turned the PS4 Pro into a 8.4 tflops beast.

 

[R600]

Yes it does. Oberon and Ariel makes two.

Yes, but not in a way you think it does.

Thebe and Liverpool make two, but they are both diff codename for same chip

 

[Dim]

That’s what I said. Do you still believe in the dual gpu AMD leak or have you moved on from that?

Dual Gpu sound gorgeous and because the architect of x86 or x64 console is not PC is completely different in many parts will be very interesting.
But already we talk from PS3 era how a cpu can change the price of console,now with two last gen GPUs thats sound crazy .
Price will be very high for console market standards and is in diverse so huge budget with console life cycle.
I believe a dual gpu can achieve better performance in a console than the way they work in Pcs but price omg.
If Sony really wants something more powerfull can easy to dont use APU and go for a console with CPU and GPU separate with lower price than dual gpus