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[it_wasn't_me]

AMD has said PS5 has hardware ray tracing?


The problem I have with this is he didn't strike me as all that confident about it. I know it might seem silly, but Microsoft and AMD have basically been screaming hardware ray tracing from the mountain tops for Xbox series X, whereas Sony so far strikes me as if they may know they don't really have it, and are trying to not discuss the subject very much. If I'm wrong, I'll take the l, but I will need more clear proof that PS5 truly supports hardware ray tracing. Something just doesn't seem all the way right with their messaging on it.

Again, will take his word for it, but I have to be honest I have strong doubts based on the information we've gotten so far. Maybe the information is wrong. Sony can set the record straight soon.

Damn, you're such a transparent being, aren't you?

Phil Spencer at E3 last year - Project Scarlet will have hardware accelerated RT - no doubt at all
Mark Cerny - PS5 will have hardware accelerated RT - doubt, more clear proof, doesn't seem all the way right with their messaging, i have strong doubts.

Stop it, get some help.

 

[R600]

For example, PS4 had few APU codenames. We dont know if these were given to dev kits then retail chip specifically, or was there Sony/AMD specific usage, but I remember PS4 APU being called Liverpool, Thebe, Starsha.

 

[Dim]

Yes, but not in a way you think it does.

Thebe and Liverpool make two, but they are both diff codename for same chip

Liverpool ,ThebeJ,and Starsha from Space Battleship
All names is inside PS4 execution code
Jump to 23:15

 

[bitbydeath]

Yes, but not in a way you think it does.

Thebe and Liverpool make two, but they are both diff codename for same chip

What do PS4 chips have to do with anything?

The AMD leak states there are two GPU’s both of which remain in testing.

If one were to be an updated version then the other should fall away and not remain in testing, that isn’t the case here though.

You are either backing dual GPU’s or it’s all fake.

 

[Darius87]

Cerny say Ray Traycing acceleration in GPU ,no Hardware RT Support,a hardware RT no need support
AMD says from Vega Gpus that support is built in cause RT acceleration is GPU intersection acceleration library with basic support for heterogeneous systems.
So i think is something unclear to you because you cant judge a book by last page,go back and read all conversation t make it clear to your self

read it already, ond this same game of semantics was already brought up by someone in this thread just when Cerny confirmed HW RT for PS5.
so it's either hardware accelerated or software accelerated and it's clearly says Hardware.

it’s not a software-level fix, which some had feared. “There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware,” he says, “which I believe is the statement that people were looking for.

i don't know how i could get this more clearly for you, because you clearly have a problem with understanding words.

 

[Rightisright]

I'm not sure why people dont think the PS5 will have hardware accelerated RT.
If Cerny says it does, it does. Why would he like?

 

[DJ12]

Damn, you're such a transparent being, aren't you?

Phil Spencer at E3 last year - Project Scarlet will have hardware accelerated RT - no doubt at all
Mark Cerny - PS5 will have hardware accelerated RT - doubt, more clear proof, doesn't seem all the way right with their messaging, i have strong doubts.

Stop it, get some help.

Don't forget 2 games being shown only 1 with RT enabled.

If anything people should be doubting Xbox doesn't have it (I think it does but at the moment there is zero proof other than Phil's word)

 

[it_wasn't_me]

Don't forget 2 games being shown only 1 with RT enabled.

If anything people should be doubting Xbox doesn't have it (I think it does but at the moment there is zero proof other than Phil's word)

Yep, Godfall

 

[Dim]

read it already, ond this same game of semantics was already brought up by someone in this thread just when Cerny confirmed HW RT for PS5.
so it's either hardware accelerated or software accelerated and it's clearly says Hardware.

i don't know how i could get this more clearly for you, because you clearly have a problem with understanding words.

Ok post me the interview part of wired where Cerny say excactly this and dont post me words by other users as evidence,because i made my search before i speak,not by taking sides in posts
Ok? Am i clear ?
More clear than Cerny and you?

 

[R600]

What do PS4 chips have to do with anything?

The AMD leak states there are two GPU’s both of which remain in testing.

If one were to be an updated version then the other should fall away and not remain in testing, that isn’t the case here though.

You are either backing dual GPU’s or it’s all fake.

It is actually. Ariel is just comparison, Oberon is now going into production. Die size ~50mm² less then Arden.

 

[Dim]

I'm not sure why people dont think the PS5 will have hardware accelerated RT.
If Cerny says it does, it does. Why would he like?

I am not against to have PS5 RT hardware.
I am against to take a cryptic(open to two meanings) technical statement by Cerny and translate anybody as he wish by putting extra words as "hardware"

 

[bitbydeath]

It is actually. Ariel is just comparison, Oberon is now going into production. Die size ~50mm² less then Arden.

Arden is part of Oberon according to the leak and nowhere I’ve seen it mention Ariel as a comparison. You got any proof on that?

 

[it_wasn't_me]

I am not against to have PS5 RT hardware.
I am against to take a cryptic(open to two meanings) technical statement by Cerny and translate anybody as he wish by putting extra words as "hardware"

It's not cryptic at all. It's clear as tear.

 

[Dim]

It is actually. Ariel is just comparison, Oberon is now going into production. Die size ~50mm² less then Arden.

This is sure that Oberon is the final chip???
And that crazy benchmark score about Gonzalo was devkit with Vega???

 

[Panajev2001a]

I am not against to have PS5 RT hardware.
I am against to take a cryptic(open to two meanings) technical statement by Cerny and translate anybody as he wish by putting extra words as "hardware"

Cryptic? He is an engineer not really trying the PR speak but the technical architect speech. He said it clearly and re-clarified. What is unclear just to understand it more?

 

[R600]

Arden is part of Oberon according to the leak and nowhere I’ve seen it mention Ariel as a comparison. You got any proof on that?

Yes, in fucking doc lol. That is why Starsha, Liveprool and Thebe were brought up. Because we know Sony already had multiple codenames for same APU.

 

[Dim]

Cryptic? He is an engineer not really trying the PR speak but the technical architect speech. He said it clearly and re-clarified. What is unclear just to understand it more?

Show me where say exactly Hardware RT in GPU????????????
Cerny says RT acceleration in GPU ok?
What is difficult for you to understand?
Never talk about dedicate RT cores or something like that.
Is just a cheap scripted article by the journalist with pointed questions and answers perfectly unclear.
AMD in RAdeon Rays use the same words with Cerny to describe the Ray Tracing built in solution in Vega GPU where is just a f@cking library in GPU API
Please read some f@ckin pages about Ray tracing before argued in a very clear matter

 

[R600]

This is sure that Oberon is the final chip???
And that crazy benchmark score about Gonzalo was devkit with Vega???

No, that benchmark is actual APU. Oberon chip + 500GB/s is faster then 13TF Vega.

 

[bitbydeath]

Yes, in fucking doc lol. That is why Starsha, Liveprool and Thebe were brought up. Because we know Sony already had multiple codenames for same APU.

You’re back on the PS4 again?
I’m referring to the PS5 AMD leak. Do you have any proof of Ariel not being a real GPU?

 

[R600]

Arden is part of Oberon according to the leak and nowhere I’ve seen it mention Ariel as a comparison. You got any proof on that?

Its not mate, let it go lol.

So according to taiwanese insider, who leaked numerous AMD chips as he has ties to TSMC is wrong and both Oberon and Arden are now in production PS5 chips.

 

[-kb-]

Still don't consider the benefits marginal (far from it in fact) in the games that utilize it best. It was a game changer in Control and in Metro Exodus.



Skip to 14:20. It's incredible.

sorry I was not clear. I was talking about supporting both a raytracing and non raytracing path on a console and allowing a user to switch between the two as being of marginal benefit whilst requiring extra QA time and what not.

 

[Dim]

No, that benchmark is actual APU. Oberon chip + 500GB/s is faster then 13TF Vega.

WHAT??????????

 

[Reindeer]

Damn, you're such a transparent being, aren't you?

Phil Spencer at E3 last year - Project Scarlet will have hardware accelerated RT - no doubt at all
Mark Cerny - PS5 will have hardware accelerated RT - doubt, more clear proof, doesn't seem all the way right with their messaging, i have strong doubts.

Stop it, get some help.

Too much RDX juice

 

[bitbydeath]

Its not mate, let it go lol.

So according to taiwanese insider, who leaked numerous AMD chips as he has ties to TSMC is wrong and both Oberon and Arden are now in production PS5 chips.

Here’s a screen capture to refresh your memory.

The specs are practically the same which is yet another sign they are two different GPU’s as it would warrant a massive change to update the name.

Do you still believe this leak now?

 

[Darius87]

Ok post me the interview part of wired where Cerny say excactly this and dont post me words by other users as evidence,because i made my search before i speak,not by taking sides in posts
Ok? Am i clear ?
More clear than Cerny and you?

this is from wired

Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5

Now that the name is official, we've got more details about Sony's next-gen console—from the haptics-packed controller to UI improvements.

www.wired.com

you're really that ignorant? i already posted here you go again:

There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware,” he says

he says meaning M.Cerny now if you think that's somehow is False article or not Cerny words was quoted then you might have somekind of rare disease, you might also ask your mom if she's really your mom.

 

[R600]

WHAT??????????

It is. Check 5700XT vs Vega64 (XT card avgs 1830MHz and therefore ~9.3TF)

 

[Reindeer]

And animation.

Better than Naughty Dog? Naaaah.

 

[R600]

Here’s a screen capture to refresh your memory.

The specs are practically the same which is yet another sign they are two different GPU’s as it would warrant a massive change to update the name.

Do you still believe this leak now?

Jesus you are beyond help...Please find document yourself and check it out. I have it here and know what I am talking about.

 

[bitbydeath]

Jesus you are beyond help...Please find document yourself and check it out. I have it here and know what I am talking about.

You haven’t shown any proof, if you have it, share it.

 

[-kb-]

Show me where say exactly Hardware RT in GPU????????????
Cerny says RT acceleration in GPU ok?
What is difficult for you to understand?
Never talk about dedicate RT cores or something like that.
Is just a cheap scripted article by the journalist with pointed questions and answers perfectly unclear.
AMD in RAdeon Rays use the same words with Cerny to describe the Ray Tracing built in solution in Vega GPU where is just a f@cking library in GPU API
Please read some f@ckin pages about Ray tracing before argued in a very clear matter

it also doesn’t say that they don’t support ray tracing. Trying to infer technical information off prerelease interviews is not a useful way to discern technical information for a SoC just wait roughly a month and you’ll know if it’s true or not.

 

[R600]

You haven’t shown any proof, if you have it, share it.

Cant now, on my phone now. Will send you when I get back home and you make sure to read it.

 

[chemical boy]

There are people who are like talking to a wall, then in a few days to see what excuse they find ... and by the way, when SONY said that it was looking to quickly implement the PS5 does not mean that it will have a low price, they are talking because they will be compatible with all PS models

 

[Dim]

this is from wired

Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5

Now that the name is official, we've got more details about Sony's next-gen console—from the haptics-packed controller to UI improvements.

www.wired.com

you're really that ignorant? i already posted here you go again:

he says meaning M.Cerny now if you think that's somehow is False article or not Cerny words was quoted then you might have somekind of rare disease, you might also ask your mom if she's really your mom.

I answer before to you and i say the same
Rt acceleration in GPU is not hardware its a f@cking library support for GPU API to enable RT calculation
Hardaware RT is the Tensor cores of Nvidia no software
Hardware RT for AMD wil see in RDNA2 /RTRT
Thats why Cerny statement is not talking about RTRT
IS diferent the REAL TIME RAY TRAYCING with the RAY TRACING ACCELERATION witch is a hybrid solution
SO when you say PS5 have HW RT because Cerny say it its a epic F@cking wrong
What its difficult to understand or to read two pages with explanations and definitions of terminology than to chew gum everybody the same things all over the threads?

 

[bitbydeath]

Cant now, on my phone now. Will send you when I get back home and you make sure to read it.

Just post it in here the part that relates to Ariel not being a real GPU.

 

[BattleScar]

It is actually. Ariel is just comparison, Oberon is now going into production. Die size ~50mm² less then Arden.

Is 50mm2 really enough extra space for an additional 16 (up to 20 if accounting for redundancy) Compute Units, and extra two memory channels??
Not to mention if the CUs have the BVH intersection engines and Ray Cast engines in the TMUs, they will be quite a bit larger than those in Navi 10.

How are they fitting in all the extra logic (of which there is quite a lot) in just 50mm2 extra?

 

[R600]

Just post it in here the part that relates to Ariel not being a real GPU.

It relates to earlier revision. You are being obtrusive on purpose.

Ariel - earlier CHIP (not GPU), from timeline likely for dev kit
Oberon - Ariel revision, likely chip for production (as AquariusZi from taiwan has already sad back in Oct)

It clearly states in file that ISSUE from Ariel (something with cache BW has been fixed now in Oberon B0)

 

[Reindeer]

I answer before to you and i say the same
Rt acceleration in GPU is not hardware its a f@cking library support for GPU API to enable RT calculation
Hardaware RT is the Tensor cores of Nvidia no software
Hardware RT for AMD wil see in RDNA2 /RTRT
Thats why Cerny statement is not talking about RTRT
IS diferent the REAL TIME RAY TRAYCING with the RAY TRACING ACCELERATION witch is a hybrid solution
SO when you say PS5 have HW RT because Cerny say it its a epic F@cking wrong
What its difficult to understand or to read two pages with explanations and definitions of terminology than to chew gum everybody the same things all over the threads?

But the article does explicitly mention that it's not software based, surely Cerny would have to approve this wording even if his own wording could be misinterpreted.

 

[BattleScar]

It relates to earlier revision. You are being obtrusive on purpose.

Ariel - earlier CHIP (not GPU), from timeline likely for dev kit
Oberon - Ariel revision, likely chip for production (as AquariusZi from taiwan has already sad back in Oct)

It clearly states in file that ISSUE from Ariel (something with cache BW has been fixed now in Oberon B0)

Why would they completely rename the chip? Why not just call it Ariel B1, or C0 if the changes were significant enough.

I want to know what the differences are between Ariel and Oberon beyond cache bandwidth.

 

[R600]

Is 50mm2 really enough extra space for an additional 16 (up to 20 if accounting for redundancy) Compute Units, and extra two memory channels??
Not to mention if the CUs have the BVH intersection engines and Ray Cast engines in the TMUs, they will be quite a bit larger than those in Navi 10.

How are they fitting in all the extra logic (of which there is quite a lot) in just 50mm2 extra?

It was estimate (he literally said "Oberon is around 300, Arden 350mm² - one size difference")

20CUs are ~43mm² in Navi 10.

Arden has 64ROPs, same as Oberon, so no additonal 32ROPs worth of logic on die. If Oberon has 4GB DDR4 and 3D Audio chip that is extra few mm² that Arden likely doesnt have.

We will have to wait and see, but if both are using AMD RT then we are looking into ~8-10% more space per CU cluster, not GPU (so not really big).

 

[Dim]

this is from wired

Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5

Now that the name is official, we've got more details about Sony's next-gen console—from the haptics-packed controller to UI improvements.

www.wired.com

you're really that ignorant? i already posted here you go again:

he says meaning M.Cerny now if you think that's somehow is False article or not Cerny words was quoted then you might have somekind of rare disease, you might also ask your mom if she's really your mom.

Let me make it more clear to you because is dificult for you
GPU is hardware,RT acceleration in GPU Hardware means support built in GPU HW not RTRT HW
How to know that means built in support?
I just read the f@acking AMD article and patent about RT solutions,thats why i say Cerny was not clear about RTRT Hardware
Who is ignorant now?
CERNY NEVER SAY WE HAVE RTRT HARDWARE in GPU HARDWARE
WHO IS THE IGNORANT??????????????????????????????????????

 

[bitbydeath]

It relates to earlier revision. You are being obtrusive on purpose.

Ariel - earlier CHIP (not GPU), from timeline likely for dev kit
Oberon - Ariel revision, likely chip for production (as AquariusZi from taiwan has already sad back in Oct)

It clearly states in file that ISSUE from Ariel (something with cache BW has been fixed now in Oberon B0)

You’re getting confused with Arden aren’t you?

Either way, let’s see it.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I answer before to you and i say the same
Rt acceleration in GPU is not hardware its a f@cking library support for GPU API to enable RT calculation
Hardaware RT is the Tensor cores of Nvidia no software
Hardware RT for AMD wil see in RDNA2 /RTRT
Thats why Cerny statement is not talking about RTRT
IS diferent the REAL TIME RAY TRAYCING with the RAY TRACING ACCELERATION witch is a hybrid solution
SO when you say PS5 have HW RT because Cerny say it its a epic F@cking wrong
What its difficult to understand or to read two pages with explanations and definitions of terminology than to chew gum everybody the same things all over the threads?

Hey kind sir, Tensor Cores are there for AI/Machine Learning... the word you are looking for is, wait for it, RT core : https://devblogs.nvidia.com/nvidia-turing-architecture-in-depth

(Tensor cores being introduced in the Tesla architecture/1080 and RT cores in Turing/2080)

 

[it_wasn't_me]

I answer before to you and i say the same
Rt acceleration in GPU is not hardware its a f@cking library support for GPU API to enable RT calculation
Hardaware RT is the Tensor cores of Nvidia no software
Hardware RT for AMD wil see in RDNA2 /RTRT
Thats why Cerny statement is not talking about RTRT
IS diferent the REAL TIME RAY TRAYCING with the RAY TRACING ACCELERATION witch is a hybrid solution
SO when you say PS5 have HW RT because Cerny say it its a epic F@cking wrong
What its difficult to understand or to read two pages with explanations and definitions of terminology than to chew gum everybody the same things all over the threads?

I think you, Xbox fans, have some problems.

 

[R600]

Why would they completely rename the chip? Why not just call it Ariel B1, or C0 if the changes were significant enough.

I want to know what the differences are between Ariel and Oberon beyond cache bandwidth.

Thats why I brought up PS4 APU codenames. All 3, Liverpool, Thebe and Starsha were confirmed as APU codenames at different stages of dev.

Nothing, except BW, small differences (~0.2%).

Both have same texture filrate of 288GT/s, indicating 36CUs at 2.0GHz (36*4*2).

 

[Dim]

It was estimate (he literally said "Oberon is around 300, Arden 350mm² - one size difference")

20CUs are ~43mm² in Navi 10.

Arden has 64ROPs, same as Oberon, so no additonal 32ROPs worth of logic on die. If Oberon has 4GB DDR4 and 3D Audio chip that is extra few mm² that Arden likely doesnt have.

We will have to wait and see, but if both are using AMD RT then we are looking into ~8-10% more space per CU cluster, not GPU (so not really big).

So we go for a custom APU with elements from RDNA2 as everybody say
Why the 3D audio needs to be on the APU???
Did we have ray tracing technology on sound too????

 

[Dim]

I think you, Xbox fans, have some problems.

The problem is in your mentality sadly my friend and in low IQ
I am 46 years old i probably play games before you born and i bet i never have switch my console as you have do.
I am PS fan from day one just i hate people who cant understand something and they translate with own words and the lack of knowledge,and are so lazy to read 2 web pages to learn something,but not lazy to critize others for their mental problems, something like you doing

 

[pawel86ck]

Don't forget 2 games being shown only 1 with RT enabled.

If anything people should be doubting Xbox doesn't have it (I think it does but at the moment there is zero proof other than Phil's word)

What's interesting Godfall was running at 4K 60fps, so HW RT is there for a fact and it's also very efficient because not even 2080ti can run RT reflections at 4K 60fps.

BTW. if I remember correctly sony has said PS5 will be a niche product for enthusiasts rather than casual players. To me underpowered 9TF GPU for 399$ doesnt fit this description and besides 9TF Navi should be to slow to run godfall at 4K 60fps with RT.

 

[R600]

You’re getting confused with Arden aren’t you?

Either way, let’s see it.

You are getting confused with file you are looking at. Its literally a python script that is pulling data from server.

If you can read python code, the script hits some test servers and grabs test data and pulls them into already populated Xlsm files. Its a config typo, because Arden and Oberon cannot both be in production + Arden has Xbox BC mode, nothing to do with PS4 or Pro.

 

[BattleScar]

I answer before to you and i say the same
Rt acceleration in GPU is not hardware its a f@cking library support for GPU API to enable RT calculation
Hardaware RT is the Tensor cores of Nvidia no software
Hardware RT for AMD wil see in RDNA2 /RTRT
Thats why Cerny statement is not talking about RTRT
IS diferent the REAL TIME RAY TRAYCING with the RAY TRACING ACCELERATION witch is a hybrid solution
SO when you say PS5 have HW RT because Cerny say it its a epic F@cking wrong
What its difficult to understand or to read two pages with explanations and definitions of terminology than to chew gum everybody the same things all over the threads?

There is a lot to unpack here.
Nvidia's tensor cores were originally designed for inference/AI workloads. In Turing they are used to denoise the ray-traced lighting effects. The RT core in Turing is what generates the actual rays.
RTX is a hybrid ray tracing solution. It still uses standard rasterisation for the final image, but introduces limited ray tracing for lighting and shadows etc. And then uses tensor cores to denoise the image so that its appear a garbled mess.
Afaik, AMD's patent describes ray casting engines in the texture mapping units. I believe there are 4 ray tracing cores per TMU. There is also BVH intersection engine, but I don't recall how AMD are handling that.
AMD's solution is also hybrid.

There is no 100% real time ray tracing. Even with the dedicated RT cores and denoising algorithms, the hardware is just far too slow to pull that off.

And of course, you can purely use FP32 compute to handle ray tracing using software, but it'll be slow as absolute shit to produce a usable image or it'll produce an unusably noisy image if limited to the frame-time window.

We don't know exactly how PS5 will handle ray tracing, but if Cerny says there is some form of hardware acceleration then I'm not sure how you can really argue against it.

 

[Dim]

It is. Check 5700XT vs Vega64 (XT card avgs 1830MHz and therefore ~9.3TF)

I know that Vegas had some serious issues in game benchmarks
1080 Ti 8.8 TF is way better than Vega 64 13 TF in games
I just think for a moment you talk about real 13TF for PS5 not the x1.5 advantage of 7nm in perfomance or as Nvidia says 50% more power in 7nm