Fake
Member
At this point we can even make a Netflix series.
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SonGoku
Member
Samsung Reveals 7nm EUV's Breakdown Voltage; Process Ready For Volume Production
Korean tech giant Samsung has demonstrated that its 7nm EUV manufacturing process is right on track and is ready for volume production.wccftech.com
Hope to god and sony and ms use this opportunity. fuck the current 7nm
Samsung Electronics to Begin Mass Production of 7 nm EVU Chips in June
Samsung Electronics will start mass production of 7 nanometer (nm) extreme ultraviolet (EUV) chips in June, the first time in the global semiconductor industry
www.businesskorea.co.kr
Samsung Undercuts TSMC, to Fab Nvidia Ampere on Its 7nm Process - Report
According to a report from DigiTimes and EETimes, Nvidia will fab its upcoming Ampere architecture on Samsung's 7nm EUV process rather than on the 7nm process from TSMC
12-13TF KAIJU here we come
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ArabianPrynce
Member
thats fucking great but this dude brought a up a point on how there is no midrange die for 7nm+
Samsung Electronics to Begin Mass Production of 7 nm EVU Chips in June
Samsung Electronics will start mass production of 7 nanometer (nm) extreme ultraviolet (EUV) chips in June, the first time in the global semiconductor industry
Samsung Undercuts TSMC, to Fab Nvidia Ampere on Its 7nm Process - Report
According to a report from DigiTimes and EETimes, Nvidia will fab its upcoming Ampere architecture on Samsung's 7nm EUV process rather than on the 7nm process from TSMCwww.tomshardware.com
12-13TF KAIJU here we come
Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA OT
from our understanding there is no 7nm+ mid range die, you would think one would exist if consoles are using it (because usually AMD creates both consumer cards and consoles off the same die), i guess they dont want to risk production issues (remember 7nm+ will only be next year, so they wont...
www.resetera.com
ArabianPrynce
Member
Crisis averted for now
SonGoku
Member
thats fucking great but this dude brought a up a point on how there is no midrange die for 7nm+
Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA OT
from our understanding there is no 7nm+ mid range die, you would think one would exist if consoles are using it (because usually AMD creates both consumer cards and consoles off the same die), i guess they dont want to risk production issues (remember 7nm+ will only be next year, so they wont...
7nm+ yields are already on par with 7nm, its the same done with EUV layers to reduce complexities
I don't understand wtf this means
Paging N Negotiator
LordOfChaos
ethomaz
P
Panajev2001a
F
Fafalada
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ethomaz
Banned
I have no ideia what he means but some guys are asking him more questions.7nm+ yields are already on par with 7nm, its the same done with EUV layers to reduce complexities
I don't understand wtf this means
Paging N Negotiator
SonGoku
Member
I think he means there's no released midrange card (300-400mm2 die?) using 7nm+
But that's not conclusive, semicustom 7nm+ engineering samples can exist without the need for retail cards to be released
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Wisdom for the Duke.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
7nm+ yields are already on par with 7nm, its the same done with EUV layers to reduce complexities
I don't understand wtf this means
Paging N Negotiator
I think, as others have posted there, that the facts that AMD has not shown a version of the RDNA cores or Zen in 7nm+ (they may have for future chips like Zen2+ or Zen3), that the design libraries they use to design, layout, route, and simulate their physical processors in 7nm are not compatible with 7nm+ (meaning that either they would have to "port" the 7nm designs over in a more manual way, or they would have to target a half step node like 6nm which TSMC May have available or not, or they would have had to start the design in 7nm+ straight), and that the 7nm+ node becomes available for mass use too close to the projected launch date of the new consoles (current consoles launching with a year old node or so)... gave people doubts as to wether 7nm+ made sense for either console.
SonGoku
Member
Thanks for the valuable insight
The only odd one out would be Zen2 which is a 7nm design but there shouldn't be any difficulty in porting it to 7nm+ considering Zen3 is a similar arch designed for 7nm+
I mean could be plausible right? after all 7nm+ its the same node with added EUV layers that also happen to reduce complexity (better yields)
Correct, RDNA2 is a 7nm+ design which is what drove me to think next gen consoles chips are designed for 7nm EUV from the start
The only odd one out would be Zen2 which is a 7nm design but there shouldn't be any difficulty in porting it to 7nm+ considering Zen3 is a similar arch designed for 7nm+
But why would they? their 7nm+ lineup is projected for 2020/2021, showing them now would take away hype from their upcoming products
Both Samsung's and TSCM's 7nm EUV is entering mass production this year, TSCM claims N7+ yields are on par with 7nm
I mean could be plausible right? after all 7nm+ its the same node with added EUV layers that also happen to reduce complexity (better yields)
CyberPanda
Banned
Link?
Added.
1. Its a bit shit compared to Nvidia, but FFV is heavily Nvidia biased title anyway
2. 12% better score then Radeon7 (13.8TF) is great
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TLZ
Banned
So now 9.75 RDNA TF are better than 13.8 GCN TF? That's great if true.Added.
1. Its a bit shit compared to Nvidia, but FFV is heavily Nvidia biased title anyway
2. 12% better score then Radeon7 (13.8TF) is great
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ResilientBanana
Member
I think we might be somewhere between the two.
I think both will be 7nm. Problem with consoles is design has to be "locked" years in advance, therefore ever increasing amount of "+" nodes cannot be correctly pin pointed, as far as timeframe goes, so to say. Therefore, I think they made their bed years ago when they started to design for 7nm node where both, Zen2 and Navi+, are designed upon.
Alsk, rather well known source "Digitime" has said consoles are going to be on TSMC 7nm.
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Tbone3336
Gold Member
https://www.wsj.com/articles/sony-positions-next-playstation-for-hard-core-gamers-11561800603
Sony focusing on large third party publishers and hardcore gamers.
Sony focusing on large third party publishers and hardcore gamers.
TLZ
Banned
Hmm. Imo both Sony and MS have to explain this RDNA TF message clearly. How in the past GCN TF numbers would need to be higher, but it's not necessary with RDNA now and how it's equivalent to so and so. Whenever both reveal specs. To avoid disappointment when single digits are revealed.
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jonnyp
Member
I think both will be 7nm. Problem with consoles is design has to be "locked" years in advance, therefore ever increasing amount of "+" nodes cannot be correctly pin pointed, as far as timeframe goes, so to say. Therefore, I think they made their bed years ago when they started to design for 7nm node where both, Zen2 and Navi+, are designed upon.
Alsk, rather well known source "Digitime" has said consoles are going to be on TSMC 7nm.
What do they need to change to go to 7nm EUV other than the masks (of which there will be a lot fewer of probably)?
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
As I understand it (someone please correct me if wrong) is that 7nm and 7nm +/EUV aren't compatible (TSMC have made 6nm that is) and will require a completely separate design?
Also these console APUs would've been design complete last year I'd imagine and far too late to switch to EUV.
ANIMAL1975
Member
Beaten lol was about to post it. Some interesting stuff:https://www.wsj.com/articles/sony-positions-next-playstation-for-hard-core-gamers-11561800603
Sony focusing on large third party publishers and hardcore gamers.
That's more or less 1.42 trillions difference to Sony pictures
wait what 
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FranXico
Member
OTOH, time to end the mobile phone business misery.
That's more or less 1.42 trillions difference to Sony pictures
ArabianPrynce
Member
https://www.wsj.com/articles/sony-positions-next-playstation-for-hard-core-gamers-11561800603
this screams to me a 499$ beast baby. This takes the 399 price point out the fucking window which makes happy. In the article sony made a point on how people want high end graphics for games, which means more powerful hardware. ruthentic cookies' leaks are becoming more and more real lol. He was on the money.
SonGoku
N
Negotiator
this screams to me a 499$ beast baby. This takes the 399 price point out the fucking window which makes happy. In the article sony made a point on how people want high end graphics for games, which means more powerful hardware. ruthentic cookies' leaks are becoming more and more real lol. He was on the money.
SonGoku
N
Negotiator
Ar¢tos
Member
Nah.. They just announced a new one...
Maybe in the next 5-10 years someone will finally decide to shut the phone department down.
Negotiator
Banned
I think we should forget TSMC for next-gen consoles, they're more likely to choose Samsung from the get-go, since their 7nm+ process is already in full swing. nVidia is also switching to Samsung, even though they had a long-time partnership with TSMC.7nm+ yields are already on par with 7nm, its the same done with EUV layers to reduce complexities
I don't understand wtf this means
Paging N Negotiator
I don't think it's a coincidence that the PS4 SS APU will be manufactured by Samsung and not TSMC. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a whisper quiet console.
7nm EUV makes sense not because it's newer (that's an added bonus), but because it's dramatically cheaper and this matters for consoles.
Samsung Undercuts TSMC, to Fab Nvidia Ampere on Its 7nm Process - Report
According to a report from DigiTimes and EETimes, Nvidia will fab its upcoming Ampere architecture on Samsung's 7nm EUV process rather than on the 7nm process from TSMC
"It was originally expected that Nvidia would be using the 7nm process from TSMC, which has found its way onto Apple iPhones and AMD CPUs and GPUs, but according to EETimes, Samsung has apparently "aggressively undercut" TSMC."
"Separately, one source said that Samsung is aggressively undercutting prices for its 7-nm node with EUV, offering some startups a full mask set for less than a multi-layer mask (MLM) set at its rival. TSMC introduced the MLM mask sets in 2007 to lower costs for small-volume runs. They are said to be about 60% of the cost of a full mask set."
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ArabianPrynce
Member
Only problem is many people, especially in reee era dont think the 7nm+ will make it to consoles by the time it launchesI think we should forget TSMC for next-gen consoles, they're more likely to choose Samsung from the get-go, since their 7nm+ process is already in full swing. nVidia is also switching to Samsung, even though they had a long-time partnership with TSMC.
I don't think it's a coincidence that the PS4 SS APU will be manufactured by Samsung and not TSMC. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a whisper quiet console.
7nm EUV makes sense not because it's newer (that's an added bonus), but because it's dramatically cheaper and this matters for consoles.
Samsung Undercuts TSMC, to Fab Nvidia Ampere on Its 7nm Process - Report
According to a report from DigiTimes and EETimes, Nvidia will fab its upcoming Ampere architecture on Samsung's 7nm EUV process rather than on the 7nm process from TSMC
"It was originally expected that Nvidia would be using the 7nm process from TSMC, which has found its way onto Apple iPhones and AMD CPUs and GPUs, but according to EETimes, Samsung has apparently "aggressively undercut" TSMC."
"Separately, one source said that Samsung is aggressively undercutting prices for its 7-nm node with EUV, offering some startups a full mask set for less than a multi-layer mask (MLM) set at its rival. TSMC introduced the MLM mask sets in 2007 to lower costs for small-volume runs. They are said to be about 60% of the cost of a full mask set."
Negotiator
Banned
We're still 1+ year away before actual manufacturing begins and 6+ months away before we see the final APU chips in dev kits (so no meaty leaks until then).
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
https://www.wsj.com/articles/sony-positions-next-playstation-for-hard-core-gamers-11561800603
this screams to me a 499$ beast baby. This takes the 399 price point out the fucking window which makes happy. In the article sony made a point on how people want high end graphics for games, which means more powerful hardware. ruthentic cookies' leaks are becoming more and more real lol. He was on the money.
Alternatively, enjoy the warm up act for an upcoming mic drop.
How do you guarantee momentum and fast uptake?
Not with a high price...
ArabianPrynce
Member
Well this seems to contradict ruthentic cookies 500 dollar price point and sony's focus on the hardcore gamer
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
Seems like the "leaks" are working.
ArabianPrynce
Member
"A second Sony official said the company believes people buy a videogame console to play graphics-heavy games. "
"Sony says a high-powered machine in the home will still be necessary to run the latest graphics stably because cloud services rely on sometimes-balky internet connections. The next PlayStation will be capable of processing 8K ultra-high-definition graphics, said the PlayStation unit's chief, Jim Ryan, in May. "
"Mr. Yoshida, the Sony CEO, described the fifth-generation PlayStation as "dramatically increasing the graphics-rendering speed" and said the change "clearly demonstrates why it makes sense to have a next-generation console." "
A lot of empahsis on making the ps5 a powerful machine for harcore gamers. Maybe sony can release on for 400 dollars under a heavy loss
SpinningBirdKick
"Sony says a high-powered machine in the home will still be necessary to run the latest graphics stably because cloud services rely on sometimes-balky internet connections. The next PlayStation will be capable of processing 8K ultra-high-definition graphics, said the PlayStation unit's chief, Jim Ryan, in May. "
"Mr. Yoshida, the Sony CEO, described the fifth-generation PlayStation as "dramatically increasing the graphics-rendering speed" and said the change "clearly demonstrates why it makes sense to have a next-generation console." "
A lot of empahsis on making the ps5 a powerful machine for harcore gamers. Maybe sony can release on for 400 dollars under a heavy loss
SpinningBirdKick
ArabianPrynce
Member
He has been on the money with almost everything, he leaked ape escape, anthems delays, sony not attending etc.Seems like the "leaks" are working.
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
Negotiator
Banned
I'm still betting on $599 BoM and $499 MSRP ($100 loss, which is manageable by their current PSN profits).
$599 BoM and $399 MSRP ($200 loss) would be quite a bold move on their part...
8-9TF better be $349. Nowhere near $499!
$599 BoM and $399 MSRP ($200 loss) would be quite a bold move on their part...
8-9TF better be $349. Nowhere near $499!
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
"A second Sony official said the company believes people buy a videogame console to play graphics-heavy games. "
"Sony says a high-powered machine in the home will still be necessary to run the latest graphics stably because cloud services rely on sometimes-balky internet connections. The next PlayStation will be capable of processing 8K ultra-high-definition graphics, said the PlayStation unit's chief, Jim Ryan, in May. "
"Mr. Yoshida, the Sony CEO, described the fifth-generation PlayStation as "dramatically increasing the graphics-rendering speed" and said the change "clearly demonstrates why it makes sense to have a next-generation console." "
A lot of empahsis on making the ps5 a powerful machine for harcore gamers. Maybe sony can release on for 400 dollars under a heavy loss
You won't get a fast transition just targeting the hardcore.
Yes, they are big spenders but make up a fraction of a mass market consumer base of ~100m users.
Look at it this way. They have stated that the PS4 will be THE revenue driver for a couple of years. If you want to surpass that quickly (<3 years?) that is going to need a huge switch very quickly.
What lever matters most to the mass market? Price.
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
Exactly. No one is paying 499 for that.
ArabianPrynce
Member
Well if your right thens thats fucking wack and contradicts there message of wanting a powerful console. Its lame to not take advantage of upcoming tech to give the console longivity hardware wise at least. Like we have the potential to have a console with little to no bottlenecks. It seems like every gen there is like some bottleneck lol. one gen its cpu is good and the gpu is meh, one gen the cpu is bad and the gpu is ok. We could have a console thats a balanced on both lol
ArabianPrynce
Member
Okay if so, where are these sony officials saying the opposite lol. maybe mixed messaging.
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Negotiator
Banned
In 2-3 years we should have 5nm to make PS5 even cheaper.
TSMC Completes 5nm Node Design, Node in Risk Production - ExtremeTech
TSMC has completed the design work for its 5nm node. The node itself is in early risk production.
www.extremetech.com
xool
Member
I'll be happy to eat crow but I think you're 100% wrong on this. TSMC has/is producing CPU and GPUs at 7 nm for AMD , TSMC has already made 7nm chips - eg Apple A12 (late 2018) , Samsung hasn't made a single 7 nm chip yet ..
Apparently Nvidia is jumping to Samsung to 7nm for its (big) chips so they must have some confidence in the process - however its not the usual way to start on a new node with the biggest chips - the expectation would be problems and delays.
PS5 launch is a year off, so there's time for Samsung's 7nm to get good, but I'd be suprised if an AMD APU is made there next year.
ArabianPrynce
Member
in the samsung 7nm+ article, samsung stated that they are interested in giving chips to both amd and nvidia
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
In 2-3 years we should have 5nm to make PS5 even cheaper.
TSMC Completes 5nm Node Design, Node in Risk Production - ExtremeTech
TSMC has completed the design work for its 5nm node. The node itself is in early risk production.
Can be bought cheaper after, let's say 3 years on the market doesn't seem very quick though. It sounds like the exact opposite to the Ryan quote.
Future cost reductions will obviously help but that's not going to affect initial momentum. You need price to do that. It's what the mass market understands, not TF, SSD, RT etc.
ArabianPrynce
Member
can you link me to the article with that has the ryan quote you posted?
jonnyp
Member
NO!
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
That's the whole point.
Salesman tactics.
"Look how premium this feels..."
"Each of these parts are precision engineered..."
"How much do you think something of this quality costs?"
...
"... and you can own it today for only [less than you imagined]!"
"Shut up and take my money!"
THE:MILKMAN
Member
A cynic might even suggest these analysts articles about high price are all part of the setup!
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