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[timlot]

But this is a graphics face off, 60fps has nothing to do with judging the quality of the graphics, that is about performance.

Shouldn't there be a standard though? I think there is a balance every game has between graphics and performance. Hell I'm sure Drive Club would look even better @ 20fps probably even photo realistic @ 15fps. Fall 2013 seems so long ago, but I remember a lot of talk about 1080p60fps, CU cores, ROPs, GDDR5, hUMA all in the same sentence. As in life...

 

[Baroquemantic]

What kind of sign?

Lol. Fortunately not that kind of sign. That'd be like someone standing above my house with a sprinkler trying to convince me it's actually pouring outside. Death to lip raining!

I'm talking about this kinda sign:

https://youtu.be/hHcyJPTTn9w

 

[Synth]

I don't think he is arguing what you think he is arguing. He is just saying that being disappointed with a game that is 60 fps on a weaker console when comparing it to a game that is 30 fps on a more powerful console is dumb. You can still argue that the latter looks better than the former, but if you are disappointed in the former because of this fact then you just had baseless, idiotic expectations to begin with.

Even setting that aside, trying to divorce graphics and framerate is silly anyhow. They both go hand-in-hand to determine how the game looks to the player. Many of the graphical aspects we praise (such as Driveclub's weather) we do so primarily because how they look in motion... Like how the water pools at the side of the window and reacts with the movement of the car. Similarly, many of the things we identify as graphical flaws (such as Forza's reflections) are largely conveyed in motion, which is why it's so much easier to take realistic looking photos in Forza than it is to capture realistic looking video. If we were actually playing a screenshot (don't ask me how it'd work), then we could discount framerates. A 30fps F-Zero GX would not be considered the graphical accomplishment it is.

It's nothing like AI that doesn't have any visual impact on the game (you could have 0 AI and 24 players and the game would look the same). Framerate is directly tied to how the game looks, so it actually looks worse in a video that's throwing half of the frames away, yet maintaining all of them for Driveclub. The areas of Forza that aren't 60fps (rear-view mirror, rain of windshield etc) are also graphically worse off for it.

Tbh, I'm shocked that I'm even having to type this out here... I'm off to bed.

 

[benzy]

They also seem to be lacking shadows from the track lights. FM6 looks like the only one that has it. (and it's only one shadow, despite there being lights on both sides of the track)

GT5 was already doing multiple shadows at once in 2010.

Didn't realize Driveclub was completely missing this as well. Was wondering why chase cam looked kind of weird in night races and tunnels. I'm sure PD has seen DC and other Sony first party game tech, makes me wonder if the sheer amount of detail and object rendering is something want to reach/surpass for a 60fps racer as it's a pretty lofty goal. PD should have just outsourced all of their legacy fictional tracks to Evo studios before they lost half of their talent. Trial Mountain/Deep Forest is going to look like absolute shite if they don't completely remake it for PS4.

 

[etta]

Even setting that aside, trying to divorce graphics and framerate is silly anyhow. They both go hand-in-hand to determine how the game looks to the player. Many of the graphical aspects we praise (such as Driveclub's weather) we do so primarily because how they look in motion... Like how the water pools at the side of the window and reacts with the movement of the car. Similarly, many of the things we identify as graphical flaws (such as Forza's reflections) are largely conveyed in motion, which is why it's so much easier to take realistic looking photos in Forza than it is to capture realistic looking video. If we were actually playing a screenshot (don't ask me how it'd work), then we could discount framerates. A 30fps F-Zero GX would not be considered the graphical accomplishment it is.

It's nothing like AI that doesn't have any visual impact on the game (you could have 0 AI and 24 players and the game would look the same). Framerate is directly tied to how the game looks, so it actually looks worse in a video that's throwing half of the frames away, yet maintaining all of them for Driveclub. The areas of Forza that aren't 60fps (rear-view mirror, rain of windshield etc) are also graphically worse off for it.

Tbh, I'm shocked that I'm even having to type this out here... I'm off to bed.

Yea, curious as to why the thread was not "Next-gen racing games face-off" instead of the "Next-gen racing graphics face-off". One would assume there would be much more to discuss when not just focusing on graphics, but also AI, performance, physics and simulation elements...etc.

 

[btags]

Even setting that aside, trying to divorce graphics and framerate is silly anyhow. They both go hand-in-hand to determine how the game looks to the player. Many of the graphical aspects we praise (such as Driveclub's weather) we do so primarily because how they look in motion... Like how the water pools at the side of the window and reacts with the movement of the car. Similarly, many of the things we identify as graphical flaws (such as Forza's reflections) are largely conveyed in motion, which is why it's so much easier to take realistic looking photos in Forza than it is to capture realistic looking video. If we were actually playing a screenshot (don't ask me how it'd work), then we could discount framerates. A 30fps F-Zero GX would not be considered the graphical accomplishment it is.

It's nothing like AI that doesn't have any visual impact on the game (you could have 0 AI and 24 players and the game would look the same). Framerate is directly tied to how the game looks, so it actually looks worse in a video that's throwing half of the frames away, yet maintaining all of them for Driveclub. The areas of Forza that aren't 60fps (rear-view mirror, rain of windshield etc) are also graphically worse off for it.

Tbh, I'm shocked that I'm even having to type this out here... I'm off to bed.

I would agree with you on that, I was just trying to point out that Dictator was arguing a different point.

 

[krioto]

Yea, curious as to why the thread was not "Next-gen racing games face-off" instead of the "Next-gen racing graphics face-off". One would assume there would be much more to discuss when not just focusing on graphics, but also AI, performance, physics and simulation elements...etc.

great, you're back.... and it has to do with the fact that some of these games are pseudo-sim vs sim-cade vs arcade - lets compare apples to oranges

 

[RedRum]

Yea, curious as to why the thread was not "Next-gen racing games face-off" instead of the "Next-gen racing graphics face-off". One would assume there would be much more to discuss when not just focusing on graphics, but also AI, performance, physics and simulation elements...etc.

I like the "games" portion of it rather than just focusing on graphics. Good point.

 

[benzy]

This thread and the one before it is focused on graphics because of the constant pissing contest ruining other threads and it was always in regards to graphics.

 

[Tripolygon]

Yea, curious as to why the thread was not "Next-gen racing games face-off" instead of the "Next-gen racing graphics face-off". One would assume there would be much more to discuss when not just focusing on graphics, but also AI, performance, physics and simulation elements...etc.

This thread was created because there was always a pissing contest about what racer looks best. So this thread was born so any graphics comparison could be done here instead of the dedicated threads of the different racers. We can compare graphics because it is a bit objective, we can't compare physics because it is very subjective and there is no quantifiable/qualifiable way to compare them without direct access to the underlying physics systems, same applies to AI.

That is why "but 60fps, AI or physics" is not an argument that is welcomed in this thread. How can you prove that Forza 6 physics is better than Project Cars or Driveclub when DC is a Simcade with over 1 million players who have enjoyed the often proclaimed inferior physics by those who use the argument "but blank game has more advanced physics"?

 

[nib95]

Yea, curious as to why the thread was not "Next-gen racing games face-off" instead of the "Next-gen racing graphics face-off". One would assume there would be much more to discuss when not just focusing on graphics, but also AI, performance, physics and simulation elements...etc.

I think the 'game' side of things is much more subjective tbh, and more genre dependant (arcade, simcade, sim, track based, open world etc). I can imagine it being an endless back and forth without as much merit. For example, I think Driveclub's AI is excellent, and I love that the opponents drive not only realistically, but highly aggressively (especially on Legendary), which is fitting for the type of game it is. A fair few people disagree with that, to varying degrees of competency. However, I find aggressive AI in sim racers is not always as welcome, because simulation physics mean most times you have far less traction and stability, and as such, the consequences to having contact are generally much more severe. At least if you race using simulation/pro settings, TCS off etc, like I usually prefer to.

 

[Niks]

Forza really needs to add some shadows under the car. It looks really bad.

 

[shandy706]

Glad to see abload working again....finally.

 

[Ricerocket]

Forza really needs to add some shadows under the car. It looks really bad.

The shadows will help a tad bit but the lighting and pretty much everything makes forza look like a cartoon next to DC.

 

[Noobcraft]

Forza really needs to add some shadows under the car. It looks really bad.

It has shadows under the car. That's just a weird angle/shot.

 

[NullPointer]

Damn nice.

 

[Ricerocket]

It has shadows under the car. That's just a weird angle/shot.

The video posted with the comparison is at all kinds of angle.

 

[etta]

I think the 'game' side of things is much more subjective tbh, and more genre dependant (arcade, simcade, sim, track based, open world etc). I can imagine it being an endless back and forth without as much merit.

Sounds fair.

 

[DD]

I think the 'game' side of things is much more subjective tbh, and more genre dependant (arcade, simcade, sim, track based, open world etc). I can imagine it being an endless back and forth without as much merit. For example, I think Driveclub's AI is excellent, and I love that the opponents drive not only realistically, but highly aggressively (especially on Legendary), which is fitting for the type of game it is. A fair few people disagree with that, to varying degrees of competency. However, I find aggressive AI in sim racers is not always as welcome, because simulation physics mean most times you have far less traction and stability, and as such, the consequences to having contact are generally much more severe. At least if you race using simulation/pro settings, TCS off etc, like I usually prefer to.

Specially on open wheelers. I gave up on Formula B on Project Cars because of that.

 

[Noobcraft]

The video posted with the comparison is at all kinds of angle.

The AI cars have shadows too.

 

[Ricerocket]

The AI cars have shadows too.

Maybe that video is an alpha or something.

 

[shinnn]

Forza really needs to add some shadows under the car. It looks really bad.

There's shadows. Look at some seconds after and before your screengrab. Will DC get water sprays as DLC?

 

[The Baron Count]

Man...

Driveclub may be the only truly visually mind blowing game to me so far this gen. Every time I see it, I'm struck again by how ridiculously good it looks.

All of these games are gorgeous but that game is just next level. Ridiculous.

 

[SaganIsGOAT]

I don't think he is arguing what you think he is arguing. He is just saying that being disappointed with a game that is 60 fps on a weaker console when comparing it to a game that is 30 fps on a more powerful console is dumb. You can still argue that the latter looks better than the former, but if you are disappointed in the former because of this fact then you just had baseless, idiotic expectations to begin with.

👊👊👊👊

 

[benzy]

There's shadows. Look at some seconds after and before your screengrab. Will DC get water sprays as DLC?

There's water spray. I think it's difficult to see in chase cam because it builds up further behind the car instead of directly at the wheel base.

 

[Noobcraft]

Totally off topic but that small river along the barrier is evil. Avoid it at all costs lol.

 

[btags]

There's shadows. Look at some seconds after and before your screengrab. Will DC get water sprays as DLC?

There most certainly are shadows. Anyone who has played the demo can attest to that. My guess (I am not really good with technical stuff, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt) is that the particles from the water sprays do not receive shadows, which makes them look oddly bright near the car. Again, no idea if that is correct or makes sense, but if I had to guess I would say that is the problem.

Totally off topic but that small river along the barrier is evil. Avoid it at all costs lol.

Yes, so many times when I play the demo I forget it is there and just get pulled into the wall.

 

[TheAdmiester]

Now that GTA 5 has more fully-featured vehicles, can we start classing it as a game suitable for this thread?

I mean, it has interior views, partial volumetric lighting, dynamic lighting (with beautiful headlight shadowing), advanced weather effects, free roam, races, and best of all it's available on PC.

It even has the cascade shadows on interiors you guys were discussing earlier:

It also has the best bokeh I've ever seen in a game, but you don't usually see it in a car due to the limited camera movement.

 

[nib95]

Now that GTA 5 has more fully-featured vehicles, can we start classing it as a game suitable for this thread?

I mean, it has interior views, partial volumetric lighting, dynamic lighting (with beautiful headlight shadowing), advanced weather effects, free roam, races, and best of all it's available on PC.

It even has the cascade shadows on interiors you guys were discussing earlier:

It also has the best bokeh I've ever seen in a game, but you don't usually see it in a car due to the limited camera movement.

Certainly impressive stuff, especially from an open world game of an entirely different genre of game.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

These last few pages do a good job of justifying why some developers feel comfortable telling frame rate to get fucked in favour of sticking on a few extra graphical bells and whistles.

Spoiler

Some of those DC shots still look fucking gorgeous though

 

[shandy706]

Bored tonight...lets shift to open world too.

Have to love being able to play, take shots, make a gif, and uploading it within a few minutes to gaf.

 

[DirgeExtinction]

I think a better comparison would be DC vs FH2 vs NFS(when it releases).
30fps all around

 

[NullPointer]

Now that GTA 5 has more fully-featured vehicles, can we start classing it as a game suitable for this thread?

GTA V is actually my favorite open world racer out there right now. Might as well put it in the mix.

 

[Melfice7]

One thing that drives me crazy in Driveclub is the camera stuttering, im not talking about camera movement, im talking about actual stuttering, it looks awful to me and i think its what makes many people think that the framerate isnt stable

Wish that shit had a toggle to turn off

 

[BeeDog]

One thing that drives me crazy in Driveclub is the camera stuttering, im not talking about camera movement, im talking about actual stuttering, it looks awful to me and i think its what makes many people think that the framerate isnt stable

Wish that shit had a toggle to turn off

What? First time I'm hearing about it, DC is rock-solid. Or do you mean the aggressive tremors of the camera?

Haven't seen anyone blaming the game's framerate for that.

 

[23qwerty]

What? First time I'm hearing about it, DC is rock-solid. Or do you mean the aggressive tremors of the camera?

Haven't seen anyone blaming the game's framerate for that.

Yeah no clue. I have NEVER encountered any framedrops or stuttering in DC, unless this is a recent thing. I haven't played a month or so.

 

[Inf3cted_b3ast]

One thing that drives me crazy in Driveclub is the camera stuttering, im not talking about camera movement, im talking about actual stuttering, it looks awful to me and i think its what makes many people think that the framerate isnt stable

Wish that shit had a toggle to turn off

I'm guessing you're referring to camera shake. It can be turned off in the settings.

 

[desu]

One thing that drives me crazy in Driveclub is the camera stuttering, im not talking about camera movement, im talking about actual stuttering, it looks awful to me and i think its what makes many people think that the framerate isnt stable

Wish that shit had a toggle to turn off

A toggle for this has been added with one of the recent patches, it was suggest by the community with the same reasoning as yours.

 

[Shaneus]

I would still say no. Not to "protect" forza or something, but most of the stuff added in photo mode is for image quality, like aa, anisotropic filtering, improved blur, etc. It is not like the lighting model or some other basic engine system changes.

Not talking about photo mode, just replays. So it's on a more even playing field

This may just be the silliest post in this entire thread.

How so? Compare a Forza 6 replay to a DC replay given they're both 30fps.

Unless I'm wrong, but it looked to me in a YT video that in-game FM6 was 60 but the replay was 30.

Not really because the only added effect is DoF and more cars on display depending on the camera angle. Everything is the same as when it's running at 60FPS which is precisely why many people still wonder why Turn10 insists on locking everything to 30FPS outside of races just to add DoF.

Hm. Wonder why they didn't tinker more with it then? Figure they'd want to make it look as good as possible in replays.

This thread was created because there was always a pissing contest about what racer looks best. So this thread was born so any graphics comparison could be done here instead of the dedicated threads of the different racers. We can compare graphics because it is a bit objective, we can't compare physics because it is very subjective and there is no quantifiable/qualifiable way to compare them without direct access to the underlying physics systems, same applies to AI.

That is why "but 60fps, AI or physics" is not an argument that is welcomed in this thread. How can you prove that Forza 6 physics is better than Project Cars or Driveclub when DC is a Simcade with over 1 million players who have enjoyed the often proclaimed inferior physics by those who use the argument "but blank game has more advanced physics"?

Amen. We probably *could* have a best racing game thread, but yes it would be incredibly subjective.

GTA V is actually my favorite open world racer out there right now. Might as well put it in the mix.

Likewise. Shame it doesn't have consistent framerates on any platform, though :/

PS.

If we wanted to compare apples to apples (gif from 30fps games in the wet):

 

[Melfice7]

A toggle for this has been added with one of the recent patches, it was suggest by the community with the same reasoning as yours.

shiiiiiiiiiit i haven't played in a while thats great news

 

[VanWinkle]

PS.

If we wanted to compare apples to apples (gif from 30fps games in the wet):

There's no comparison. FH2 has a very clean, saturated, pleasant look to it, and I love it a lot, but DC is far far better looking graphically.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

DC remains in its position as the best looking racer.

 

[Shaneus]

So is it kind of settled that we can't really compare FM6 with DC because FPS, so the closest comparison is FH2?

Not that I'm trying to settle debates or anything, but graphically, framerate can make a difference over just comparing in-game screens (side topic: does "graphics" include framerate? Maybe only on consoles... but that's not for this thread) so when trying to get DC in direct comparison to FM6, it'll always result in the same conclusion (that we've already come to over the last few pages).

Or we could just leave it to photomodes again (unless 60fps gifs or webbums are a thing) to give each title an even playing field.

 

[Terbinator]

A toggle for this has been added with one of the recent patches, it was suggest by the community with the same reasoning as yours.

Really?

I got griefed for suggesting there was something up in the DC thread way back when. Time to fire it up again.

 

[Loudninja]

Evo did some really amazing stuff with DC.

 

[bj00rn_]

"but 60fps, AI or physics" is not an argument that is welcomed in this thread

The context of why a game looks like it does is always interesting and should be welcomed in any thread, and it usually is.

What I suppose you actually mean is that it`s not welcomed by a certain group of people in this thread because Driveclub is a 30fps arcade racer (which is not necessarily a bad thing at all). Why not just call a spade a spade.

 

[le.phat]

PS.

That's ridiculous.

 

[eso76]

FM6 didn't do much to change things.

There's several technical advancements under the hood and wet looks nice but overall visuals don't look too different from fm5.

NFS looks like it might reignite this thread until GT7. Or PGR5

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

Can't go back to playing DC. Great eye candy, but that's all that it's got going for it. 60 FPS, for me, really changes things.

Each to their own I guess but Forza is a great sim though, while DC is more arcade racer.

I personally love DriveClub for what it is, despite it's 30fps cap. I guess it's the graphics that give it a next gen feel that makes it special, because it's certainly pushing graphics beyond any other racer.

Also with no framerate or frame pacing issues it's certainly the smoothest 30fps racer I've played and Evo managed to capture a real sense of speed in it, something which a lot of 30fps racers lose.

 

[wapplew]

That's ridiculous.

Ridiculous indeed.
A blueish scene turn into orange after one turn. That sky, that wet mud. Everything look so organic.