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[TheSpecialOne]

I guess I'll just uninstall the game then because I'm obviously wrong about thinking it looks great.

.

 

[btags]

I'd swear crowds in FM5 were super basic 2D sprites.

Give me a sec, I will show that they do the same thing in F5 as they do in F6.

 

[le-seb]

Give me a sec, I will show that they do the same thing in F5 as they do in F6.

With normal maps and all the shit? I don't believe it.

 

[cheezcake]

Another video comparing the weather in both FM6 and Driveclub but this time the video is at 720/60fps. Driveclub still looks like a whole genreation apart IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=borC9k3dMbc

TBH you would hope so considering it has 3x the rendering budget per frame

 

[pixelbox]

What new techniques did they develop? Everything that you mentioned earlier has been used in numerous other games. Hell, even as you pointed out, the crowds in forza 6 that are sprites receive lighting information and that is the same sprite tech that was used in forza 5 which came out before driveclub. I am not trying to argue that the forza crowds look great or anything, but trying to act like driveclub introduced a whole bunch of new tech to games is ridiculous. Did it use a bunch of existing tech ideas really well? Yes.

F6 came after DC, one. Two although it more of a marriage of existing tech. The amount of effects used plus SSS and the depth shading is something i haven't seen before.

 

[DD]

Well I didn't say Forza looked bad did I?

I didn't say that, mate.

 

[Synth]

I would have thought people would be able to discuss tech without their bias but lo and behold

Holy shit... the fucking nerve of this post considering the posts you've been making in this thread. Someone mentions DC's leaves being 2D, and you go off on a tangent about hurt feelings and shit due to F6's crowd, when F6 was only mentioned in relation to this.. by a Driveclub defender. Come the fuck on. You expect people to discuss graphics, but can't accept any post that isn't focused either on DC being magical or F6 being shit.

2. Are the windshield wipers moving at 10fps?

30fps.

 

[btags]

F6 came after DC, one. Two although it more of a marriage of existing tech. The amount of effects used plus SSS and the depth shading is something i haven't seen before.

Read my post again, I talked about the sprite effects used in Forza 6, which are the same as the ones used in Forza 5, which came out in 2013. Driveclub came out in 2014.

Also, here is a gif that I just captured from forza 5 showing the crowd sprites.

 

[icecold1983]

You are arguing to an absurd point to wash away the fact that you are for some reason denying that it is a sprite.

It being a sprite does not kill new born children. It just explains how the game balances its graphics: high detailed SSR, clouds, cars and shaders... lack luster vegetation in comparison.

It even lines up with everything concerning distant object and vegetation rendering we have seen this gen on consoles.

i wouldnt consider it lackluster

 

[le-seb]

Also, here is a gif that I just captured from forza 5 showing the crowd sprites.

Yup, they're missing any 3D effect.
And that lighting looks terribad.

They're much better in FM6 from what I've seen, so definitively not the same tech.

 

[DD]

Three things that jumped at me about F6 while watching this video.

1. At times the car looks like a sticker that was placed on the screen. I believe some one mentioned this some pages back.
2. Are the windshield wipers moving at 10fps?
3. The cars seem far easier to handle. Could assists be on?

2) nope, 60 FPS. Its just moving faster than in DC, so you can see the gaps between frames there, even though it's at 60 FPS.

1 and 3) that's one of the problems with Forza. It lacks that grittiness of Motorsports. Driving in it feels too smooth, almost like in a spaceship. This is something Turn 10 should take a look at, IMHO.

EDIT:

30fps.

Really?

 

[TheAdmiester]

Really?

They're definitely 60. You can see the difference between the 60FPS wipers and the 30FPS raindrops.

 

[pixelbox]

Read my post again, I talked about the sprite effects used in Forza 6, which are the same as the ones used in Forza 5, which came out in 2013. Driveclub came out in 2014.

Also, here is a gif that I just captured from forza 5 showing the crowd sprites.

Holy shit! What do you know. Kudos. I will say the sprites in DC carries a shit ton of values at one such as specular, SSS, normals possibly POM, and shadows.

 

[benzy]

We've been over this before early on in the thread with a comparison between DC and FH2. Clarity of image is not at all DC's strong point, with road detail being very unclear even at standstill from any ingame angle, and turning to soup as soon as any motion is applied. Road details on Driveclub as a result actually focus primarily on macro details instead (such as cracks, pebbles etc) for detail, as these larger details remain more easily discernible. If you compare your DC image to one of shandy's FM6 images even when pointing the camera straight down there's a very obvious difference in micro detail. The road surface in your Driveclub image is more comparable to the rough rubble patch in the Forza image, and the outer patch on the DC image already beings to look very indistinct even at this angle. The difference when you actually see either of these surfaces in game is significantly more dramatic.. and they're not both affected the same way in motion, as despite utilizing motion blur also, details remain far more noticeable in FM6.. likely because there isn't twice the amount time passing between the frames that are being blended. This is actually another reason why I think claiming framerate and graphics are separate entities is ridiculous.

Driveclub's (and PGR's) focus on macro details extends beyond simple road surfaces as well. It's why tuffs of grass in Driveclub are freakishly large (you can almost imagine Link pulling them up in a search for Rupees) to mask how sporadicly placed they are on a otherwise very obvious flat surface. It's why the rain on the windscreen (and game camera) leaves impossibly large droplets, with incredibly exaggerated motion. Don't get me wrong these are GOOD artistic choices, they employ the same hyperreal stylings that PGR did in other to create the illusion of realism (much like a Hollywood film), despite being very unrealistic in actuality. All these things sit perfectly in the sweet spot to be still visually prominent in a gif, but also appear higher fidelity. The more realistically scaled grass the populates many of the tracks in FM6 become invisible when shrunk/compressed, despite being clearly discernible in game even at 150mph.

Now, I realise this is an awful lot of text, with no comparison images of my own to back them up. I apologise for that.. it honestly wasn't my intention. I actually did run off to cap some shots of both FM6 and Driveclub to illustrate my point, but discovered that I actually couldn't take any non-photomode shots of FM6 currently. I'd be happy to return to this when the game is officially launched and I can grab some decent shots of how these details tend to appear in game, but I'm seriously not about to accept any claims of image clarity and micro detail between the two being at all close... that's the sort of suggestion that would lead me to question if someone ever actually sees both games in person, rather than just through threads like this (populated with gifs and youtube links). Even details on the car (I selected the KTM X-Bow on both) immediately jump out, with the paintwork showing very noticeable blurred pixels in DC , whilst appearing perfectly crisp in FM6. The default manufacturer paintjob in DC is not actually even remotely competitive with the lower fidelity custom paintjobs in FM6 (I checked that too).

Here's what I see. A lot of road detail is lost due to the lack of decent AF, and the motion blur pretty much hides whatever micro detail there is in that top down photomode tarmac shot. Poor AF is plaguing all next-gen console racers right now.

http://i.picpar.com/5x5b.png

http://i.picpar.com/0x5b.png

Looks like there's no motion blur applied during cockpit view, so you can really notice the AF cutoff here. The AF cutoff is actually more jarring in DC because the of the obvious change from very noticeable road pebbles into nothingness.

http://i.picpar.com/1x5b.png

http://i.picpar.com/3x5b.jpg

...Anyway

The rotating canopy sprites in DC isn't something that's noticeable even when driving slowly with the camera facing them. The stumps and most large branches are all 3D, with leaves/canopies being multiple rotating sprites. I find them more impressive and convincing than other racers, the effect is only broken when you enter photomode and have more freedom in camera movement.

Going back to that photomode japan shot, the bamboo trees have 3D stumps, with leaves being criss-cross 2D sprites that don't rotate like the other tree leaves. The game also has a mixture of fully 3D plant leaves for smaller vegetation that gets run over by the cars.

It's a nice improvement over the old ways of cross-plane 2D billboards for the whole tree in racers, pCars example here.

 

[adelante]

Yup, they're missing any 3D effect.
And that lighting looks terribad.

They're much better in FM6 from what I've seen, so definitively not the same tech.

Actually they do have some normal mapped depth effect, like a rough approximation of it that was created manually. They may not have used digitized people in F6 but the sprites themselves definitely look like they share the same tech.

It's actually pretty neat to see the effect on digitized people, thanks btags for making a clip!!

 

[DD]

They're definitely 60. You can see the difference between the 60FPS wipers and the 30FPS raindrops.

That's my impression too.

 

[pixelbox]

Holy shit... the fucking nerve of this post considering the posts you've been making in this thread. Someone mentions DC's leaves being 2D, and you go off on a tangent about hurt feelings and shit due to F6's crowd, when F6 was only mentioned in relation to this.. by a Driveclub defender. Come the fuck on. You expect people to discuss graphics, but can't accept any post that isn't focused either on DC being magical or F6 being shit.

Must have stepped on a nerve there buddy. I already said my piece relating to F6 defenders. They simply cannot admit there's a better looking game. Quite similar, really.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Perhaps perspective would be helpful. Here's a comparison between Forza 5 and Forza 6. Can you see a difference or is Forza 6 Forza 5 with rain?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JMqfuKw9Vk

 

[TheAdmiester]

Must have stepped on a nerve there buddy. I already said my piece relating to F6 defenders. They simply cannot admit there's a better looking game. Quite similar, really.

You must've glanced over this thread instead of reading properly.

Yes, there are people who prefer how SOME effects look in Forza 6 but not the game in general. There are also those like me that like to remind people that Forza 6's worse graphics come at the expense of more important stuff, but absolutely nowhere have I seen anyone claim that Forza overall looks better.

Perhaps perspective would be helpful. Here's a comparison between Forza 5 and Forza 6. Can you see a difference or is Forza 6 just Forza 5 with rain?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JMqfuKw9Vk

I can see and hear huge differences. The main ones that come to mind are the sand clouds and little splatters of sand on the FM6 track, and the blinding lens flares have been toned down a lot. The god rays and low angle sun are still pretty strong, but the actual lens flare overlay is a lot less apparent. The metallic paint shaders on the car look better in 6, too.

 

[Synth]

Must have stepped on a nerve there buddy. I already said my piece relating to F6 defenders. They simply cannot admit there's a better looking game. Quite similar, really.

You seem to be missing the point entirely here. Dictator93 asked nib95 how the leaves appear in motion... there was nothing about Forza in there at all. It was Conduit that chimed in with "Did you saw crowd in FM6?". Where's the posts of people claiming that 2d leaves means Forza > DC? Hell, where's the posts praising the crowds in F6 as you claim? There wasn't even any defence of the crowds in F6 over the last few pages (and probably the thread in general). Quote the posts you're referring to, rather than make baseless "moving the goalposts" claims. You say people should be able to discuss tech (which is exactly what Dictator93 was doing), then let people discuss tech. Don't throw a fit anytime that tech discussion isn't simply salivating over Driveclub.

 

[Terbinator]

Perhaps perspective would be helpful. Here's a comparison between Forza 5 and Forza 6. Can you see a difference or is Forza 6 Forza 5 with rain?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JMqfuKw9Vk

Vegetation is sparser in certain areas in 6 although I'm not actually sure which is closer to the actual track itself - I imagine this was done for performance reasons at the distant mountains at turn one are barren in 6 too. The balloons have gone too in favour of that smokestack.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Vegetation is sparser in certain areas in 6 although I'm not actually sure which is closer to the actual track itself - I imagine this was done for performance reasons at the distant mountains at turn one are barren in 6 too. The balloons have gone too in favour of that smokestack.

For me, it just looks like they've patched Forza 5 with dust and rain.

 

[btags]

Actually they do have some normal mapped depth effect, like a rough approximation of it that was created manually. They may not have used digitized people in F6 but the sprites themselves definitely look like they share the same tech.

It's actually pretty neat to see the effect on digitized people, thanks btags for making a clip!!

No, problem. And just because he said they were missing some stuff from forza 6, here is a clip that I just captured from the forza 6 demo. They look like they use the same tech to me. Also, that guy in the gif looks like Nathan Drake.

 

[t_wilson01]

I assume you mean raindrops and not wipers, right?

30fps.

2) nope, 60 FPS. Its just moving faster than in DC, so you can see the gaps between frames there, even though it's at 60 FPS.

It's really the wipers I'm referring to. Do they look exactly like this while actually playing the game? I'll have to check other videos, because that really looks weird to me.

 

[twobear]

Perhaps perspective would be helpful. Here's a comparison between Forza 5 and Forza 6. Can you see a difference or is Forza 6 Forza 5 with rain?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JMqfuKw9Vk

The shadows look less black in Forza 6, like they've added or tweaked the indirect lighting.

 

[Dictator93]

i wouldnt consider it lackluster

To each his own obviously. Yet i doubt anyone would argue they prefer that to actual real geometry and or perspective independent vegetation. It is just a matter of horse power why that is not there in the first place at such points: hence why they use the mix as shown in this gif.

Which i think looks decidedly not "lackluster".

No, problem. And just because he said they were missing some stuff from forza 6, here is a clip that I just captured from the forza 6 demo. They look like they use the same tech to me. Also, that guy in the gif looks like Nathan Drake.

Read my post again, I talked about the sprite effects used in Forza 6, which are the same as the ones used in Forza 5, which came out in 2013. Driveclub came out in 2014.

Also, here is a gif that I just captured from forza 5 showing the crowd sprites.

That which is the laughing stock of forza is a technological innovation elsewhere.

 

[icecold1983]

To each his own obviously. Yet i doubt anyone would argue they prefer that to actual real geometry and or perspective independent vegetation. It is just a matter of horse power why that is not there in the first place at such points: hence why they use the mix.



That which is the laughing stock of forza is a technological innovation elsewhere.

for its use case, the vegetation in driveclub is more convincing then almost any other game.

 

[Majanew]

Perhaps perspective would be helpful. Here's a comparison between Forza 5 and Forza 6. Can you see a difference or is Forza 6 Forza 5 with rain?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JMqfuKw9Vk

2 years later with Kinect gone and improvements to the XDK and CPU, I really expected more. The aliasing looks worse in spots in FM6. T10 is really bad at lighting and shading. I guess they chose to keep it looking pretty much the same so they could get more cars on track (a poor decision IMO) and introduce rain on some tracks.

 

[Dictator93]

for its use case, the vegetation in driveclub is more convincing then almost any other game.

Sure, its use case is speeding by @ 200km/h.

But then it falls apart under any other situation.

 

[TheAdmiester]

It's really the wipers I'm referring to. Do they look exactly like this while actually playing the game? I'll have to check other videos, because that really looks weird to me.

They're 60fps in the video and they're the same ingame, I don't see what's weird about how it looks.

 

[MaxwellParrish]

30fps.

Pretty sure the wind wipers movement is 60fps. The rain effect instead is 30fps and it disappears out of sync with the wipers.

 

[adelante]

for its use case, the vegetation in driveclub is more convincing then almost any other game.

I'm of the same opinion as well, probably because it helps make photomode shots look pretty darn good. That Evolution even bothered to have the leaves glossy is a subtle touch that adds quite a bit of difference.

2 years later with Kinect gone and improvements to the XDK and CPU, I really expected more. The aliasing looks worse in spots in FM6. T10 is really bad at lighting and shading. I guess they chose to keep it looking pretty much the same so they could get more cars on track (a poor decision IMO) and introduce rain on some tracks.

Hold up, more cars on track is a poor decision? If anything I'd prefer racing games that feature tracks to have as big a grid as PCars is capable of! Heh Also helps that from what I've seen of PCars, the AI on its highest difficulty provides some realistic challenge too despite the track being so crowded.

 

[Synth]

Pretty sure the wind wipers movement is 60fps. The rain effect instead is 30fps and it disappears out of sync with the wipers.

Yup, noticed when he responded that I was talking about the wrong thing.

 

[pixelbox]

I'm of the same opinion as well, probably because it helps make photomode shots look pretty darn good. That Evolution even bothered to have the leaves glossy is a subtle touch that adds quite a bit of difference.



Hold up, more cars on track is a poor decision? If anything I'd prefer racing games that feature tracks to have as big a grid as PCars is capable of! Heh

for its use case, the vegetation in driveclub is more convincing then almost any other game.

Yep one of the best looking games this gen. I kinda believe GT7 may knock it off it's high place.

 

[Terbinator]

Hold up, more cars on track is a poor decision? If anything I'd prefer racing games that feature tracks to have as big a grid as PCars is capable of! Heh Also helps that from what I've seen of PCars, the AI on its highest difficulty provides some realistic challenge too despite the track being so crowded.

It's difficult to make the judgement call of what the 8 extra cars came at the cost of, but in reality, those 8 extra cars are only going to bring any sort of difference (or benefit, depending on your PoV) in something like 5%, if not less, of peoples time with the game. For the sake of argument, if it meant having a drying line function in the game but 16 cars on track, it would have been a worthy trade.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

2 years later with Kinect gone and improvements to the XDK and CPU, I really expected more. The aliasing looks worse in spots in FM6. T10 is really bad at lighting and shading. I guess they chose to keep it looking pretty much the same so they could get more cars on track (a poor decision IMO) and introduce rain on some tracks.

I've watched more comparisons and it literally IS Forza 5 with a patch. Why hasn't this been discussed before? We've been comparing Forza 5 to Driveclub in this thread. No wonder Driveclub is still easily the better looking racer.

 

[Noobcraft]

I've watched more comparisons and it literally IS Forza 5 with a patch. Why hasn't this been discussed before?

Because it isn't Forza 5 with a patch. That's like saying Uncharted 3 is Uncharted 2 with a patch.

 

[Majanew]

I'm of the same opinion as well, probably because it helps make photomode shots look pretty darn good. That Evolution even bothered to have the leaves glossy is a subtle touch that adds quite a bit of difference.



Hold up, more cars on track is a poor decision? If anything I'd prefer racing games that feature tracks to have as big a grid as PCars is capable of! Heh Also helps that from what I've seen of PCars, the AI on its highest difficulty provides some realistic challenge too despite the track being so crowded.

Because just adding more doesn't mean more fun or better. FM likes to force you into 2-3 lap races in career (not sure how it is in FM6 yet) and with no qualifying, that means I'll have to be even more aggressive and hit cars before the laps run out if it's a full grid race.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Because it isn't Forza 5 with a patch. That's like saying Uncharted 3 is Uncharted 2 with a patch.

It's exactly the same game. Uncharted 2 and 3 are different games. I'm sure if ND had just patched in rain for Uncharted 2 and sold it as a 'new' game, people would have complained.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdFWq0lzcUk

 

[icecold1983]

Sure, its use case is speeding by @ 200km/h.

But then it falls apart under any other situation.

i think your bloweing it out of proportion, almost any technique can fall apart when you try to break it.

 

[adelante]

It's difficult to make the judgement call of what the 8 extra cars came at the cost of, but in reality, those 8 extra cars are only going to bring any sort of difference (or benefit, depending on your PoV) in something like 5%, if not less, of peoples time with the game. For the sake of argument, if it meant having a drying line function in the game but 16 cars on track, it would have been a worthy trade.

I agree, that would've definitely been a worthy trade.

Because just adding more doesn't mean more fun or better. FM likes to force you into 2-3 lap races in career (not sure how it is in FM6 yet) and with no qualifying, that means I'll have to be even more aggressive and hit cars before the laps run out if it's a full grid race.

Yeah, that's true. I made this comment on PCars a while back, and I've never seen cars in Forza or Driveclub exhibit the same realism:

Just as a reference, here is video of somebody who is much more used to gamepad than Alan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpW4VuXr3-A

Each time I look at the gameplay videos of this game, I'm always left impressed by the AI. More often than other racers, they would go out of their way of not trading paint with you even in the middle of a turn. Forcing them to go wide actually seems like a viable strategy in PCars.

 

[Dictator93]

i think your bloweing it out of proportion, almost any technique can fall apart when you try to break it.

The technique only works either when you can barely see it or when the image never moves. It basically barely works at all for any real viewing scenario, unlike SSR or something where it has corner cases. A camera facing sprite of that type appearing convincing is the corner case by the nature of it.

I am not sure how that reality is blowing anything out of proportion, it just seems to rile people up to mention that 1 part of an otherwise great looking game looks pretty meh.

 

[JackAubrey]

FM likes to force you into 2-3 lap races in career (not sure how it is in FM6 yet)

Double that in FM6, the career races tend to be 4-6 laps early on in the career, longer as you go on.

 

[etta]

It's exactly the same game. Uncharted 2 and 3 are different games. I'm sure if ND had just patched in rain for Uncharted 2 and sold it as a 'new' game, people would have complained.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdFWq0lzcUk

What aboot this, this the same game too?
https://youtu.be/P_Q1Ra8CsBU?t=16

 

[DD]

It's really the wipers I'm referring to. Do they look exactly like this while actually playing the game? I'll have to check other videos, because that really looks weird to me.

Sometimes the movement is so fast that not even 60 FPS is high enouth to make things smooth. See Project Cars on the PS4, for example. The same gap between frames are there.

Sure, its use case is speeding by @ 200km/h.

But then it falls apart under any other situation.

It does not.

 

[MaxwellParrish]

Sure, its use case is speeding by @ 200km/h.

But then it falls apart under any other situation.

That's patently false. Pratically the only case in wich the vegetation in Driveclub falls apart is using the free camera of the photo mode and looking for way to make it falls apart, but even if you stopped in any place on the circuit from the game prospective the vegetation is quite convincing. For example :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSdvdWbY0nk

 

[GribbleGrunger]

What aboot this, this the same game too?
https://youtu.be/P_Q1Ra8CsBU?t=16

Yep, that was a rip off which is probably why it didn't sell that well.

 

[Dictator93]

That's patently false. Pratically the only case in wich the vegetation in Driveclub falls apart is using the free camera of the photo mode and looking for way to make it falls apart, but even if you stopped in any place on the circuit from the game prospective the vegetation is quite convincing. For example :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSdvdWbY0nk

So it looks convincing if you are not moving, or if you are moving so fast and barely able to maintain focus on it.

That is my point. A free camera of any sort ruins the illusion.

It does not.

How exactly?

 

[DD]

It's exactly the same game. Uncharted 2 and 3 are different games. I'm sure if ND had just patched in rain for Uncharted 2 and sold it as a 'new' game, people would have complained.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdFWq0lzcUk

Come on, this is bullshit. Forza 6 is a much bigger game than Forza 5, and every racing game reuses assets from their previous iterations.

Because just adding more doesn't mean more fun or better. FM likes to force you into 2-3 lap races in career (not sure how it is in FM6 yet) and with no qualifying, that means I'll have to be even more aggressive and hit cars before the laps run out if it's a full grid race.

That's one of the things that made me give up on Forza.

 

[etta]

Come on, this is bullshit. Forza 6 is a much bigger game than Forza 5, and every racing game reuses assets from their previous iterations.

I don't think they are familiar with the genre, to be honest. And it's not just racing, sports games do this too. Very incremental upgrades.

they are mostly representing real tracks, which if captured properly would not change much between iterations unless a new configuration of the track was made in real life

Yup, not familiar with the genre.