Ah yeah that's true. I don't see the usual limitations of SSR in those. Could it be image-based reflections then?
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Next-gen Racing Graphics Face-off | (Next-gen means current-gen)
- Thread starter Gestault
- Start date
Ah yeah that's true. I don't see the usual limitations of SSR in those. Could it be image-based reflections then?
Dictator93
Member
Indeed.
I personally think it is doing geometry doubling mixed with some dynamic cubemaps (car bodies).
I was always under impression that that method is no longer commonly practiced because it seems computationally expensive (even as far as retaining car body damage info in the reflections)
Foutrologue
Banned
Reflections in FM6 are a mess. They are done differently depending on the camera view etc...For example there's no real reflection at all on the player's vehicle in cockpit view. It's a cubemap updated at 1fps and which changes depending on the car's location on the track (tunnel in Rio for example). some tracks have only one (Indianapolis). this solution is horrible. The hood cam view seems to use SSR at a low res updated at 30fps end pursuit cams use a cubemap updated at 30fps on the player's car and lower fps on opponents. The track during rain looks like simple planar reflection at 60fps (which works quite well)
This was something I noticed as well in cockpit gameplay videos when the game was announced. It's pretty jarring when a new cubemap pops up on the car's body. I assume having the cubemaps work this this way is less costly than having the cubemaps update at runtime each frame because they need computational resources to render the cockpit in detail as well.
What really matters is that they look great if you don't force a situation that will make 'em look silly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrcxmQ8QDX0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_zaqLHfVSk
Foutrologue
Banned
It's super jarring especially on cars where the hood takes almost 20% of the screen like the Lotus F1. IIRC FH2 didn't have any of these tricks given that it's obviously running at 30FPS. But I wonder if using SSR for everything in F6 would have been more elegant and probably less costly that what they are doing now (SSR is a really good candidate for Async Compute, can be calculated at a lower res than final output without severely impacting IQ etch..)
Dictator93
Member
Do you have images of this happening? Also, a cubemap captures everything around it... so you would not just see the "car"... I am b it confused at what you guys are describing.
I think that is one area where I would disagree, higher gloss surfaces and the temporal instability of SSR is really hurt by lower reoslution.
Oh no, cant believe i go my platinum on DC running at 30fps, terrible experience i had, so terrible i bought all the DLCs... God damn it Evo.
Made a gif. You can see in the highlighted portion, the reflections on the car update slowly.
Edit: If the gif seems borked, it's cos the player changed view briefly in that portion of the gameplay
Dictator93
Member
Made a gif. You can see in the highlighted portion, the reflections on the car update slowly.
Ah, you mean how the cubemaps on present bodies do not update at frametime, but rather every number of frames (every 60 perhaps)....or perhaps they just inherit those cubemaps most spatially closest on the track and do not have one's tied to each car.
Yeah. And because other cars seem to share the same cubemap, reflections on those cars also update just as slow (in cockpit view).
And like what Foutrologue has mentioned, in some tracks the reflections don't seem to update at all (I guess they figured a generic cubemap would suffice if the trackside details aren't as busy as street tracks)
Apex
Member
The hood cam use the same trick as in previous Forza, it's a screen capture mapped as a reflection map over the hood geometry, only works in this view for obvious reasons.
I don't think they update the cubemap with the track geometry at 1 fps, seems a pre-backed environment map image, only changes at some track points when a new image is loaded and replaced. If you go fast appears that updates every second, but if you go slow doesn't change at the same rate. I think that GT3 did something like that to simulate real time reflections.
I agree that the reflections in Forza are a mess, it vary also from track to track, some even don't reflect under the bridges, others run at real time but at half the framerate. The cockpit view looks like where most of the cuts are made, chrome materials and reflective surfaces looks fake and static for that reason, the rain drops effect is rendered a 30 fps, mirrors are rendered at 30 fps, particles effects are reduced and the rear view is not modelled.
People keep saying things like "Driveclub is a generation ahead of everything else", and you know what? I've been playing DC on the last few days, and yes, the game is gorgeous, but last Friday I spent a few minutes playing PGR4, and the first thing that came in my mind was "eww, this game got ugly! It needs AA and AF, the textures and car models are poor..." and, compared to Driveclub, of course that that's the truth, obviously. But after five minutes in it I was "damn, this game is beautiful! Look at these graphics!", and I found that intriguing. Was it the same effect when you play a 30 FPS game after a 60 FPS one, that at first you're like "sheesh, that's terrible", but after a few minutes you don't care anymore? Does anyone had a similar experience?
Inf3cted_b3ast
Member
Another video comparing the weather in both FM6 and Driveclub but this time the video is at 720/60fps. Driveclub still looks like a whole genreation apart IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=borC9k3dMbc
Edit: The video is 1080p/60fps not 720p.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=borC9k3dMbc
Edit: The video is 1080p/60fps not 720p.
Wow at some post...We go from moving the goal post by claiming DriveClub should wastefully render individual leaves to prove it's graphic prowess to discrediting sprites that are still used in all games today. Those sprites are intelligently designed and graphically computational. It's, with the many values it simulates, are not just pictures that face the screen. It's most likely first in it's class and some of you just brush it off as cheating?
The game that you're defending is using the same effect you discredit but worse, yet you praise that? IMHO Forza is a mess . Various framerates for effects, poor damage model that GT was criticized for, poor and uneven lighting, poor shaders. Shit, one could only grasp to the 60 fps bulletpoint.
All games will cheat with effect long into the future. What set things off is using what you have to get closer to your vision. In this case, Evo used the extra gpu clocks to render complicated sprites to make spectacular flora. BTW keep up the good work adelante. You back up your shit and is spot on with your anyisis.
The game that you're defending is using the same effect you discredit but worse, yet you praise that? IMHO Forza is a mess . Various framerates for effects, poor damage model that GT was criticized for, poor and uneven lighting, poor shaders. Shit, one could only grasp to the 60 fps bulletpoint.
All games will cheat with effect long into the future. What set things off is using what you have to get closer to your vision. In this case, Evo used the extra gpu clocks to render complicated sprites to make spectacular flora. BTW keep up the good work adelante. You back up your shit and is spot on with your anyisis.
TheAdmiester
Member
That's conveniently ignoring a lot of other things that contribute to Forza's performance/appearance.
I think the rain drops on the road/tarmac are repeating tiled textures in F6.
Dictator93
Member
It is how they look, and if they not look as convincing due to the tech set up then that is just how it is. Why are you offended by people not being impressed by a rotating sprite? If it makes you feel better, I I find the shading and resolution of the leaves in stills to be quite stellar.
Tech threads should not try and butter things up to protect people's egos attached to game graphics.
Well maybe cause It's not just a rotating sprite as explained by many people in the thread. My apologies if i offended anyone. My issue is with members that hurt thier egos expecting F6 to crush thw competition. They are the one's making outrageous claims and discrediting all the isn't F6.
Did Driveclub save you from a near death experience or something? Calm the fuck down it is just a game. People are not attacking you personally. This is a graphics thread. The use and merit of different graphical effects in all racing games will be discussed, and if people think something could have/should have been done differently they have the right to express that.
Also, the constant deflection back to forza is a great way to avoid a discussion about driveclub's tech,
except it isn't
On another note, I do think the reflections in forza are just geometry, because if you look at the peugot shot posted earlier (I believe Maldo posted it) you can see polygonal edges on the headlight in the reflection of the car that are not visible on the normal model.
Dictator93
Member
Why is it exactly not a camera facing sprite? Could you link the post explaining why not?
Inf3cted_b3ast
Member
Personally it's the audio difference that really surprises me. With the lack of good PS4 racers for some reason I hadn't considered how much better the audio is in DC - not really a tangent for this thread but love to understand how Evo achieved that. Ive watched a lot of the Evo behind the scenes work on the Motorstorm series but don't think they ever did such a series for DC - such a shame
Every time I play the game I automatically have headphones on - now I know why...
ps3ud0 8)
TheAdmiester
Member
I think you're thinking of my screenshot that he reposted:
The easiest way to tell that it's not a true reflection is to look around the Peugeot badge. There are more scratches below it on the real car, and parts of the badge itself are missing on the reflection. I think it's the same way reflections were done in older games, a lower LOD model stuck to the bottom of you with slightly transparent ground, but I could be wrong. However they're doing it it looks great though, one of the best systems I've seen.
It has a great sound engine, the wet road sounds in particular are some of the best I've heard, but I can't get over the fact that so many cars are just using wrong sounds.
Oh geez, the same insult of "overreacting"...I would have thought people would be able to discuss tech without their bias but lo and behold, we get the comments posted in here. It makes some feel better if they could be delusional and ignore the obvious which is the thing that pisses me off. It's not about Driveclub, it's about that. F6 from what I can see does not usher any new graphic tech that Driveclub or any racer does, 60 FPS or not. It just isn't in the same league, case closed. It's a personal belief the Turn 10 just isn't on their shit in the Graphic department. And maybe that's due to the Dev cycle, who knows.
Inf3cted_b3ast
Member
Personally it's the audio difference that really surprises me. With the lack of good PS4 racers for some reason I hadn't considered how much better the audio is in DC - not really a tangent for this thread but love to understand how Evo achieved that. Ive watched a lot of the Evo behind the scenes work on the Motorstorm series but don't think they ever did such a series for DC - such a shame
Every time I play the game I automatically have headphones on - now I know why...
ps3ud0 8)
I 100% agree. The audio is really amazing. Those rain drops hitting the car, wiper blades sound on thw windshield etc all come together to deliver an amzing experience with headphones
What's going at 0:53 and 1:52?
I and another member already stated why it's just not a sprite. It carries normal, depth, shadow, and SSS values; making it few steps beyond a sprite. Juse like you can't say "it's just a polygon" there cause be shader values on top.
Ahh thats a shame, obviously hadn't realised and tbh wouldn't have noticed anyway. Just did a quick google if Evo did any DC making-of videos but to find their website pretty much gutted and not up-to-date
ps3ud0 8)
I wouldn't say it looks a generation apart given the fps difference. Drive Club has more windshield water animation. More exaggerated imo. Drive Club's color pallet is more muted so it tends to look more realistic. Forza has always gone for more saturated colors. The spray effect coming off the rear tires in Forza make the tires disappear thus giving the "floating car" effect. Didn't really notice any rain spray coming from the tires in Drive Club, even when the car went through accumulated water. Also the camera angles that some of these comparison videos use always use the far and high view on Forza and the low and close view on Drive Club. Having said all that Forza's driving physics in the rain real difference. There simply has never been anything like it.
TheAdmiester
Member
...but the base object is still a sprite. I don't see how that polygon argument is meant to make sense. If a polygon has all kind of specular, normal mapping, lighting, PBR effects and whatever on it, it IS still a polygon.
Dictator93
Member
em, those things do not preclude it being a sprite. It being shaded may make it look better interms of still image consitency with ther rest of the game in a still, but that breaks immediately as soon as the camera pivots due to it being just a sprite.
Its the same reason why you cannot label sprite based particle effects accepting light and shadowing information as being volumetric. Because if it had volume, it would not need to rotate.
TheSpecialOne
Banned
I guess we all shouldn't be here in this thread as we're just watching triangles stretching and shrinking at 30 to 60 frames a second intervals... :/
Created two gifs from my clips of DC, sorry for the quality, it's the first time I have made a gif.
Videos for better quality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF3akNZ-waA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzZyVkzbB2E
Videos for better quality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF3akNZ-waA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzZyVkzbB2E
TheAdmiester
Member
I don't see how "this game still uses sprites" has devolved into "it's just triangles". Of course it's "just triangles", but as a metaphor you're essentially trying to imply that a game uses octagons when it''s still using triangles, just with modern lighting techniques.
I guess I'll just uninstall the game then because I'm obviously wrong about thinking it looks great.
t_wilson01
Member
Three things that jumped at me about F6 while watching this video.
1. At times the car looks like a sticker that was placed on the screen. I believe some one mentioned this some pages back.
2. Are the windshield wipers moving at 10fps?
3. The cars seem far easier to handle. Could assists be on?
Forza 6 is a better looking game. But PC is a more dynamic game with more cars on the track.
TheAdmiester
Member
I assume you mean raindrops and not wipers, right?
Dictator93
Member
You are arguing to an absurd point to wash away the fact that you are for some reason denying that it is a sprite.
It being a sprite does not kill new born children. It just explains how the game balances its graphics: high detailed SSR, clouds, cars and shaders... lack luster vegetation in comparison.
It even lines up with everything concerning distant object and vegetation rendering we have seen this gen on consoles.
You misinterpreted what i was saying. They developed a new technique that elevated sprite use. Im aware it's a sprite but it's doing more than just being a large, camera facing particle.
Summer Haze
Banned
I'm not doing that at all. You misinterpreted what I was saying as well.
What new techniques did they develop? Everything that you mentioned earlier has been used in numerous other games. Hell, even as you pointed out, the crowds in forza 6 that are sprites receive lighting information and that is the same sprite tech that was used in forza 5 which came out before driveclub. I am not trying to argue that the forza crowds look great or anything, but trying to act like driveclub introduced a whole bunch of new tech to games is ridiculous. Did it use a bunch of existing tech ideas really well? Yes.
I'd swear crowds in FM5 were super basic 2D sprites.
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