Poor Sakurai.
He's the Sisyphus of developers. Every time he rolls this massive boulder up a hill to completion it rolls back down and Iwata ropes him in to pushing it up again.
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Next Super Smash Bros. discussion thread, Community Edition
- Thread starter Snakeyes
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Poor Sakurai.
He's the Sisyphus of developers. Every time he rolls this massive boulder up a hill to completion it rolls back down and Iwata ropes him in to pushing it up again.
I am going to repost this again since only one or two people responded to it on the previous page. Basically, I am just looking for feedback on whether I should drop Mii or Starfy. The other characters I don't feel should be dropped. I am primarily crowd-sourcing for a quality "surprise" character (like Mr. Game & Watch or ROB).
My proposed roster:
- All characters from Brawl return
- Mewtwo and Roy are brought back
- 12 newcomers (Ridley, K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Black Shadow, Palutena, Medusa, Little Mac, Takamaru, Saki, Starfy, Mii, and Mega Man). Newcomer distribution is equally divided between new series and newcomers for veteran series.
- 49 slots plus random icon (50 slots total I guess).
- 53 total playable characters (a 14 character jump over Brawl).
From Smash 64 to Melee, there was a 14 character increase, and from Melee to Brawl there was a 13 character increase. So this 14 character increase is based off of what I expect at the most.
All Characters From Brawl Return + Mewtwo & Roy brought back:
All of the characters that were introduced in Brawl were received very well and have a large amount of fans. There is generally a lot of hostility to the idea of cuts this time around, and most Smash Bros. fans would rather see the entire Brawl cast brought back. Of the cut Melee characters, Mewtwo and Roy are the ones brought up the most in regards to being brought back for Smash 4, and for many people, seeing these characters return would be a very big deal. They were also both planned for Brawl. There are also many who think Dr. Mario should be brought back as a costume as well (with some even suggesting Pichu as a model swap for Pikachu). This just goes to show how popular Smash Bros.'s cast is and how much personality and charm Sakurai puts into every character he places in.
Ridley:
No brainer for why he was included. He is Samus's arch-nemesis, has been in the Metroid series since the beginning, and has been in almost every game in the series to date. He is also one of the most requested newcomers for Smash 4 by the Western fanbase.
K. Rool:
Another obvious pick. K. Rool has been the main antagonist of most of the Donkey Kong platformer games since Donkey Kong Country. From his three incarnations from the DKC trilogy (as well as his role in DK64), there is a lot for him to draw from in regards to a moveset. He is also incredibly popular and highly requested for Smash Bros. worldwide.
Dixie Kong:
Obvious pick again. Dixie Kong is Nintendo's most iconic female character outside of Samus, Peach, and Zelda. Dixie Kong was one of the main protagonists for two games for the DKC trilogy, and was a playable character in most of the Donkey Kong games after Nintendo 64. She is incredibly popular as well, and is perhaps the most popular female character not yet playable in Smash Bros. Her large ponytail gives her the potential to be a character that has a disjointed hitbox that is not a sword, hammer, or Snake's limbs. She is highly requested by Smash Bros. fans worldwide. DK is Nintendo's biggest series next to Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon, so four playable characters is perfectly sound.
Black Shadow:
Its a shame that F-Zero is the only series that debuted in Smash 64 (aside from Yoshi, which has the least self-identity of the Mario spinoff franchises) is still stuck with only Captain Falcon. Many Smash Bros. fans think its high time the series finally got a newcomer. However, there is also many that are upset that the villain of one of Nintendo's biggest franchises is still a clone of Captain Falcon and want Ganondorf to received a moveset that is more befitting of him (a sword and magic, or possibly Ganon's trident). However, there are also many people that love "Captain Ganondorf" and don't want to see his moveset changed. Sakurai cited this reason (that he did not want to alienate players who loved Ganondorf's Melee moveset) as the reason why Ganondorf was still "Captain Ganondorf" in Brawl. Its from here that there is a very obvious solution. Black Shadow is the main villain of the F-Zero series and Captain Falcon's arch-nemesis, he is also one of the two main characters that people suggest for a F-Zero newcomer (the other being Samurai Goroh). Black Shadow would be a natural fit for the slow, powerful version of Captain Falcon's moveset. By giving Ganondorf's Melee/Brawl moveset to Black Shadow, and by giving Ganondorf his own unique moveset, all parties are happy. Ganondorf gets his own moveset. F-Zero gets a second playable character. "Captain Ganondorf" fans still get to have the slow, powerful Falcon moveset. Everyone wins.
Palutena:
Kid Icarus Uprising is perhaps Sakurai's first big-budget project that was not Kirby or Super Smash Bros. Uprising is also one the most notable upcoming games for the 3DS. Its possible that this game will be for Kid Icarus as Ocarina of Time and Metroid Prime were for their respective series, basically creating a whole new generation of fans who love the series. There is also the fact that there are many who want to see more female characters. Unlike most other female characters, Palutena is actually the one of the most important figures in her series, and she is probably the second most important/notable Kid Icarus character next to Pit. She is so notable that she was the only other KI character aside from Pit that was re-designed for Brawl. There are some that say that she can't be in due to already being a part of Pit's Final Smash, however, considering how much new content is being added to the series as a result of Uprising, it quite likely that there will be a few changes to Pit's moveset. Also, there is a very obvious new Final Smash for Pit:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Tl4A6pvr3g Palutena will also have two OVAs centered around her in promotion for Kid Icarus Uprising. I would talk more about Palutena's moveset possibilities (staff, magic), however, I am going to wait until Uprising and the OVAs are released before I can get a much cleared idea what she is capable of. Palutena will probably become one of the most requested characters for Smash 4 after the release of Uprising.
Medusa:
A lot of the things I mentioned in the paragraph for Palutena can be repeated here. She is the third most important character in the Kid Icarus series after Pit and Palutena. Right now she is the most requested female newcomer next to Dixie Kong. Like Palutena, she will be receiving an OVA centered around her to promote Kid Icarus Uprising. There are some that feel that three Kid Icarus characters would be really pushing it, and perhaps so, however, depending on how well Kid Icarus Uprising is received, perhaps it could be warranted, especially considering if both Palutena and Medusa experience a massive surge in requests due to Uprising's success.
Little Mac:
Punch-Out is one of Nintendo's longest running franchises, harkening back all the way to Nintendo's arcade days. Punch-Out for the NES remains to this day one of the most popular and iconic releases for that console (just check out the "Most Popular" listing for the Virtual Console each week and Punch-Out will almost always be in the Top 20). The series was also the brainchild of Genyo Takeda, who was basically the father of the Wii and one of Nintendo's first game designers. The game had a very successful resurrection title for the Wii as well. With five titles under its belt, its high time that the face of the series, Little Mac, is added to Smash Bros. Little Mac is one of the most requested newcomers for Smash 4 by the Western fanbase.
Takamaru:
Nazo no Murasame is often considered the "sister game" to the Legend of Zelda the same way Kid Icarus was to Metroid. Nazo no Murasame is a cult classic in Japan, and is remembered the way Punch-Out NES is here. Takamaru has also been showing up in lately in several games since Brawl, with a NPC role in Captain Rainbow and even the inclusion of a Nazo no Murasame mode in Samurai Warriors 3 (with Takamaru being an unlockable character). There are many who would like to see a character with a katana-based moveset that uses medieval Japanese weaponry (such as shurikens). Even if the West is unfamiliar with him, he would certainly be received well. Takamaru is one of the most requested newcomers for Smash 4 by the Japanese fanbase.
Mega Man:
When it was confirmed that third-party characters were eligible for Smash Bros., there were two characters that came to everyone's mind, Sonic and Mega Man. Mega Man is pretty much the only third-party character that is requested for Smash Bros. Mega Man is loved dearly by Nintendo fans, and in many cases, consider him a honary Nintendo character. Mega Man is highly requested by Smash Bros. fans worldwide. If Smash Bros. 4 is to have to a third-party newcomer, it has to be Mega Man, and what better way to celebrate the series's 25th anniversary than a reveal of him as a newcomer in Smash 4.
Saki:
The appearance of Saki as an Assist Trophy and the release of Sin & Punishment for the Virtual Console made many people think of Saki as a great addition to Smash 4. Sin & Punishment even received a sequel since Brawl's release. Due to the success of the Virtual Console release and his Assist Trophy appearance in Brawl, most S&P and Smash Bros. fans still prefer Saki over his son Isa when the topic of a playable S&P characters comes up. However, a major concern over Saki is that S&P is still very niche and a much smaller series than every other series with a playable character already in Smash Bros. (with the exception of the retro characters). Sakurai seems to think highly of him even remarking that he was highly requested even back during pre-Brawl, and remarking how well Saki fit in with the rest of the Smash Bros. cast despite being an Assist Trophy. There is also Sakurai's love of rail shooters in general. Another advantage of including Saki over Isa besides familiarity and more popularity, is that the Virtual Console release of Sin & Punishment means that people would be able much more able to buy Saki's game than Isa's (which is a retail release).
Mii:
Miis are a phenomenon. The various Mii games (Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Party, Friend Collection) have sold millions upon millions of copies. The idea of a customizable avatar proved to be so popular that even Sony and Microsoft incorporated the concept into their consoles. The Miis are a symbol of Nintendo's resurrection to the top spot in the console market. The Miis have proven to be so popular that they have become regulars in the Mario spinoffs. However, by Smash Bros. fans there is a hesitancy to include them for several reasons. One is that some feel they are not true characters, while others feel that there is not much that could be done with them (aside from making them possibly customizable characters). There is also the matter of whether Sakurai already ruled out the possibility of Mii's being playable in Smash Bros. during Brawl. Mii and Starfy are the two characters I feel the least likely about in relation to the actual Smash Bros. 4. However, they definitely have a very strong resume and they do have a history of fighting (boxing in Wii Sports, fencing in Wii Sports Resort). Even if Miis do not make it as a playable character, I am fully expecting Wuhu Island as a stage in Smash 4.
Starfy:
As with Little Mac and Saki, Starfy was an Assist Trophy in Brawl. Starfy so far has five games in his series, with the latest one having been released outside Japan. This first international release sold very well in North America. A new installment for this franchise is almost a guarantee, so why not add another active series into the playable roster? However, out of all the newcomers I had suggested, Starfy is both the least requested and least likely. Also, there is the possibility that Sakurai himself may not think too highly of the character (possibility due to the character's strong resemblance to Kirby). Evidence to support this rumor is wording on Starfy's Dojo update and the fact that Starfy is one of two Assist Trophies that is able to be KO'd (the other being the 8-bit Lakitu). If there is a character that I will drop from my roster, it would most likely be Starfy.
In regards to possible roster changes:
The three characters on my roster I might drop are Starfy, Mii, or Saki. The characters that I am contemplating on replacing them with would be EAD/Miyamoto's new IP character and a possible "surprise" character addition.
Crowd-Sourcing:
I am going to ask for your opinion in regards to what character I should replace Starfy with. The character I am hoping to replace Starfy with is a character that is not widely requested, yet would have a lot of appeal if placed into Smash Bros. and be received well as a character. My idea would be the Duck Hunt Dog/Laughing Dog from Duck Hunt, but I want to hear other people's ideas in regards to this matter.
My proposed roster:
- All characters from Brawl return
- Mewtwo and Roy are brought back
- 12 newcomers (Ridley, K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Black Shadow, Palutena, Medusa, Little Mac, Takamaru, Saki, Starfy, Mii, and Mega Man). Newcomer distribution is equally divided between new series and newcomers for veteran series.
- 49 slots plus random icon (50 slots total I guess).
- 53 total playable characters (a 14 character jump over Brawl).
From Smash 64 to Melee, there was a 14 character increase, and from Melee to Brawl there was a 13 character increase. So this 14 character increase is based off of what I expect at the most.
All Characters From Brawl Return + Mewtwo & Roy brought back:
All of the characters that were introduced in Brawl were received very well and have a large amount of fans. There is generally a lot of hostility to the idea of cuts this time around, and most Smash Bros. fans would rather see the entire Brawl cast brought back. Of the cut Melee characters, Mewtwo and Roy are the ones brought up the most in regards to being brought back for Smash 4, and for many people, seeing these characters return would be a very big deal. They were also both planned for Brawl. There are also many who think Dr. Mario should be brought back as a costume as well (with some even suggesting Pichu as a model swap for Pikachu). This just goes to show how popular Smash Bros.'s cast is and how much personality and charm Sakurai puts into every character he places in.
Ridley:
No brainer for why he was included. He is Samus's arch-nemesis, has been in the Metroid series since the beginning, and has been in almost every game in the series to date. He is also one of the most requested newcomers for Smash 4 by the Western fanbase.
K. Rool:
Another obvious pick. K. Rool has been the main antagonist of most of the Donkey Kong platformer games since Donkey Kong Country. From his three incarnations from the DKC trilogy (as well as his role in DK64), there is a lot for him to draw from in regards to a moveset. He is also incredibly popular and highly requested for Smash Bros. worldwide.
Dixie Kong:
Obvious pick again. Dixie Kong is Nintendo's most iconic female character outside of Samus, Peach, and Zelda. Dixie Kong was one of the main protagonists for two games for the DKC trilogy, and was a playable character in most of the Donkey Kong games after Nintendo 64. She is incredibly popular as well, and is perhaps the most popular female character not yet playable in Smash Bros. Her large ponytail gives her the potential to be a character that has a disjointed hitbox that is not a sword, hammer, or Snake's limbs. She is highly requested by Smash Bros. fans worldwide. DK is Nintendo's biggest series next to Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon, so four playable characters is perfectly sound.
Black Shadow:
Its a shame that F-Zero is the only series that debuted in Smash 64 (aside from Yoshi, which has the least self-identity of the Mario spinoff franchises) is still stuck with only Captain Falcon. Many Smash Bros. fans think its high time the series finally got a newcomer. However, there is also many that are upset that the villain of one of Nintendo's biggest franchises is still a clone of Captain Falcon and want Ganondorf to received a moveset that is more befitting of him (a sword and magic, or possibly Ganon's trident). However, there are also many people that love "Captain Ganondorf" and don't want to see his moveset changed. Sakurai cited this reason (that he did not want to alienate players who loved Ganondorf's Melee moveset) as the reason why Ganondorf was still "Captain Ganondorf" in Brawl. Its from here that there is a very obvious solution. Black Shadow is the main villain of the F-Zero series and Captain Falcon's arch-nemesis, he is also one of the two main characters that people suggest for a F-Zero newcomer (the other being Samurai Goroh). Black Shadow would be a natural fit for the slow, powerful version of Captain Falcon's moveset. By giving Ganondorf's Melee/Brawl moveset to Black Shadow, and by giving Ganondorf his own unique moveset, all parties are happy. Ganondorf gets his own moveset. F-Zero gets a second playable character. "Captain Ganondorf" fans still get to have the slow, powerful Falcon moveset. Everyone wins.
Palutena:
Kid Icarus Uprising is perhaps Sakurai's first big-budget project that was not Kirby or Super Smash Bros. Uprising is also one the most notable upcoming games for the 3DS. Its possible that this game will be for Kid Icarus as Ocarina of Time and Metroid Prime were for their respective series, basically creating a whole new generation of fans who love the series. There is also the fact that there are many who want to see more female characters. Unlike most other female characters, Palutena is actually the one of the most important figures in her series, and she is probably the second most important/notable Kid Icarus character next to Pit. She is so notable that she was the only other KI character aside from Pit that was re-designed for Brawl. There are some that say that she can't be in due to already being a part of Pit's Final Smash, however, considering how much new content is being added to the series as a result of Uprising, it quite likely that there will be a few changes to Pit's moveset. Also, there is a very obvious new Final Smash for Pit:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Tl4A6pvr3g Palutena will also have two OVAs centered around her in promotion for Kid Icarus Uprising. I would talk more about Palutena's moveset possibilities (staff, magic), however, I am going to wait until Uprising and the OVAs are released before I can get a much cleared idea what she is capable of. Palutena will probably become one of the most requested characters for Smash 4 after the release of Uprising.
Medusa:
A lot of the things I mentioned in the paragraph for Palutena can be repeated here. She is the third most important character in the Kid Icarus series after Pit and Palutena. Right now she is the most requested female newcomer next to Dixie Kong. Like Palutena, she will be receiving an OVA centered around her to promote Kid Icarus Uprising. There are some that feel that three Kid Icarus characters would be really pushing it, and perhaps so, however, depending on how well Kid Icarus Uprising is received, perhaps it could be warranted, especially considering if both Palutena and Medusa experience a massive surge in requests due to Uprising's success.
Little Mac:
Punch-Out is one of Nintendo's longest running franchises, harkening back all the way to Nintendo's arcade days. Punch-Out for the NES remains to this day one of the most popular and iconic releases for that console (just check out the "Most Popular" listing for the Virtual Console each week and Punch-Out will almost always be in the Top 20). The series was also the brainchild of Genyo Takeda, who was basically the father of the Wii and one of Nintendo's first game designers. The game had a very successful resurrection title for the Wii as well. With five titles under its belt, its high time that the face of the series, Little Mac, is added to Smash Bros. Little Mac is one of the most requested newcomers for Smash 4 by the Western fanbase.
Takamaru:
Nazo no Murasame is often considered the "sister game" to the Legend of Zelda the same way Kid Icarus was to Metroid. Nazo no Murasame is a cult classic in Japan, and is remembered the way Punch-Out NES is here. Takamaru has also been showing up in lately in several games since Brawl, with a NPC role in Captain Rainbow and even the inclusion of a Nazo no Murasame mode in Samurai Warriors 3 (with Takamaru being an unlockable character). There are many who would like to see a character with a katana-based moveset that uses medieval Japanese weaponry (such as shurikens). Even if the West is unfamiliar with him, he would certainly be received well. Takamaru is one of the most requested newcomers for Smash 4 by the Japanese fanbase.
Mega Man:
When it was confirmed that third-party characters were eligible for Smash Bros., there were two characters that came to everyone's mind, Sonic and Mega Man. Mega Man is pretty much the only third-party character that is requested for Smash Bros. Mega Man is loved dearly by Nintendo fans, and in many cases, consider him a honary Nintendo character. Mega Man is highly requested by Smash Bros. fans worldwide. If Smash Bros. 4 is to have to a third-party newcomer, it has to be Mega Man, and what better way to celebrate the series's 25th anniversary than a reveal of him as a newcomer in Smash 4.
Saki:
The appearance of Saki as an Assist Trophy and the release of Sin & Punishment for the Virtual Console made many people think of Saki as a great addition to Smash 4. Sin & Punishment even received a sequel since Brawl's release. Due to the success of the Virtual Console release and his Assist Trophy appearance in Brawl, most S&P and Smash Bros. fans still prefer Saki over his son Isa when the topic of a playable S&P characters comes up. However, a major concern over Saki is that S&P is still very niche and a much smaller series than every other series with a playable character already in Smash Bros. (with the exception of the retro characters). Sakurai seems to think highly of him even remarking that he was highly requested even back during pre-Brawl, and remarking how well Saki fit in with the rest of the Smash Bros. cast despite being an Assist Trophy. There is also Sakurai's love of rail shooters in general. Another advantage of including Saki over Isa besides familiarity and more popularity, is that the Virtual Console release of Sin & Punishment means that people would be able much more able to buy Saki's game than Isa's (which is a retail release).
Mii:
Miis are a phenomenon. The various Mii games (Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Party, Friend Collection) have sold millions upon millions of copies. The idea of a customizable avatar proved to be so popular that even Sony and Microsoft incorporated the concept into their consoles. The Miis are a symbol of Nintendo's resurrection to the top spot in the console market. The Miis have proven to be so popular that they have become regulars in the Mario spinoffs. However, by Smash Bros. fans there is a hesitancy to include them for several reasons. One is that some feel they are not true characters, while others feel that there is not much that could be done with them (aside from making them possibly customizable characters). There is also the matter of whether Sakurai already ruled out the possibility of Mii's being playable in Smash Bros. during Brawl. Mii and Starfy are the two characters I feel the least likely about in relation to the actual Smash Bros. 4. However, they definitely have a very strong resume and they do have a history of fighting (boxing in Wii Sports, fencing in Wii Sports Resort). Even if Miis do not make it as a playable character, I am fully expecting Wuhu Island as a stage in Smash 4.
Starfy:
As with Little Mac and Saki, Starfy was an Assist Trophy in Brawl. Starfy so far has five games in his series, with the latest one having been released outside Japan. This first international release sold very well in North America. A new installment for this franchise is almost a guarantee, so why not add another active series into the playable roster? However, out of all the newcomers I had suggested, Starfy is both the least requested and least likely. Also, there is the possibility that Sakurai himself may not think too highly of the character (possibility due to the character's strong resemblance to Kirby). Evidence to support this rumor is wording on Starfy's Dojo update and the fact that Starfy is one of two Assist Trophies that is able to be KO'd (the other being the 8-bit Lakitu). If there is a character that I will drop from my roster, it would most likely be Starfy.
In regards to possible roster changes:
The three characters on my roster I might drop are Starfy, Mii, or Saki. The characters that I am contemplating on replacing them with would be EAD/Miyamoto's new IP character and a possible "surprise" character addition.
Crowd-Sourcing:
I am going to ask for your opinion in regards to what character I should replace Starfy with. The character I am hoping to replace Starfy with is a character that is not widely requested, yet would have a lot of appeal if placed into Smash Bros. and be received well as a character. My idea would be the Duck Hunt Dog/Laughing Dog from Duck Hunt, but I want to hear other people's ideas in regards to this matter.
Black-Wind
Member
ZSS and ...
Personally I didn't expect Pitt either and had to ask who the hell he was.
InvincibleAgent
Member
Too many characters, Snakey. I suspect 44 max.
Green Mamba
Member
Snake I think is on a whole other league of unexpectedness than every other Smash character ever. Plenty of people predicted Pit, and Zero Suit Samus, while not a popular idea, was not completely unknown. Snake was a complete surprise. No one even considered the idea. And even those who predicted a possible third party guest character didn't think of Snake. He was just so far out there. I think the amount of time between Snake's reveal and the eventual release of Brawl, coupled with the long road through the Dojo months, have made people take Snake for granted. People seem to have forgotten just how bizarre it was when he was first revealed. An "is this real life" type of reaction.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Snake was surprising because he's appeared on Nintendo so infrequently, and is so different from your usual Nintendo character. We'd need something like Banjo or, I dunno, Ezio to match that level of surprise again.
The funny thing is that I have had people call me conservative for only having 50 slots (which is the maximum I expect). I expect 40 slots at minimum for Smash 4.
I hope I'm not alone in possessing this opinion, but I'm sort of baffled that Isaac is popping up so frequently in "most likely" lists and things of that sort. (Don't get me wrong; I like him and I think he'd be a great addition to the game.)
Isaac was much more relevant during the production of Brawl. He had starring roles in the first two Golden Sun games, whereas he appears in Dark Dawn as a middle-aged NPC. If Sakurai wanted to include Isaac as a playable character, he'd have put him in Brawl.
Also, Golden Sun would uniquely be the only franchise with a playable character to be both exclusively handheld and exclusively second-party. Sakurai is extremely selective in choosing which franchises to give character representation to. Take a look at the new series introduced in Brawl:
Wario - iconic franchise with dozens of games spanning numerous consoles
Pikmin - Miyamoto's brainchild; EAD-developed
Kid Icarus - retro
R.O.B. - retro
Metal Gear - guest
Sonic - guest
Golden Sun doesn't quite fit. Mii, Animal Crossing, and Punch-Out!! are truly the only non-retro, non-guest franchises that I can see possibly getting a character. Having gone back and looked at the previous Smash Bros. games, the Golden Sun/Sin & Punishment/Starfy/Xenoblade hope seems too unrealistic. I foresee a lot of crushed dreams.
Isaac was much more relevant during the production of Brawl. He had starring roles in the first two Golden Sun games, whereas he appears in Dark Dawn as a middle-aged NPC. If Sakurai wanted to include Isaac as a playable character, he'd have put him in Brawl.
Also, Golden Sun would uniquely be the only franchise with a playable character to be both exclusively handheld and exclusively second-party. Sakurai is extremely selective in choosing which franchises to give character representation to. Take a look at the new series introduced in Brawl:
Wario - iconic franchise with dozens of games spanning numerous consoles
Pikmin - Miyamoto's brainchild; EAD-developed
Kid Icarus - retro
R.O.B. - retro
Metal Gear - guest
Sonic - guest
Golden Sun doesn't quite fit. Mii, Animal Crossing, and Punch-Out!! are truly the only non-retro, non-guest franchises that I can see possibly getting a character. Having gone back and looked at the previous Smash Bros. games, the Golden Sun/Sin & Punishment/Starfy/Xenoblade hope seems too unrealistic. I foresee a lot of crushed dreams.
I know that me and StarWolf_UK have brought up that the prospect of a Golden Sun character is overrated. At least with Saki, I think Sakurai genuinely likes his source material (heck, he was nearly telling people to go out and buy Sin & Punishment for Saki's Assist Trophy update).
I concur with you that Punch-Out and perhaps Mii are on a different level due to them being primarily developed by Nintendo, though with Miis the hardcore Smash fans seem to be against the idea. Personally, I can see the idea going well with casual fans of the series.
Nocturnowl
Member
Starfy is hard for me to get a handle on seeing as no Starfy game has got a release over here (PAL regions), judging by his almost jokey AT role in Brawl I really don't know what to think.
Mii isn't something i'm too excited about but I can imagine it having lots of appeal to some people, the sports based moveset people angle for Waluigi would make more sense in the hands of a mii (hey it can even be a Walugi mii!)
But mii's do throw in their own problem of size, i'm not sure how hitboxes, weight and other factors would be handled with the varying sizes possible.
I wouldn't miss either of these two but if one had to go i'd say starfy, as for the role of super surprise character i'm stumped, it doesn't get much weirder than the very far flung throwback to the past with Game and watch or using a peripheral like R.O.B.
Next step a pack of Hanafuda cards as a character? ehhhh no, too far!
I'm thinking it should be something related to Smash Bros itself, Polygon? Alloy? Sandbag? Primid? i'm not good at this catching people off guard idea, Smash fans know too much about Nintendo that nothing could really surprise at this point, I probably wouldn't even blink at a peripheral man with console body parts, ultrahands for arms wielding Zappers that flies around on a balance board.
I actually like your roster, Snakey. I haven't seen many that I'd consider remotely plausible, but yours comes close. I do have a handful of qualms with it, though:
King K. Rool & Dixie Kong - I don't think the DK series is going to get two new characters. K. Rool is relatively unpopular in Japan, and he's hardly gotten any respect in the past Smash games. If I had to choose between the two, I'd say that Dixie is more likely. She was planned for Brawl as a tag team character with Diddy, so Sakurai might want to use his old move-set plans and flesh her out into a standalone fighter.
Palutena & Medusa - It's likely that one of these will be included, but not both; Kid Icarus is barely a big enough series to deserve two characters. All things considered, I'd go with Palutena.
Saki & Starfy - Looking at the first three Smash Bros. games, I just don't see their respective franchises as being big enough to warrant playable representation.
Black Shadow - Besides Pit and R.O.B. (retro characters), every Brawl newcomer had appeared within the two years prior to Sakurai's completion of the planning document in July 2005. Unless there's a new F-Zero in the works, Black Shadow is far too irrelevant. Even then, I'd consider Samurai Goroh more likely.
King K. Rool & Dixie Kong - I don't think the DK series is going to get two new characters. K. Rool is relatively unpopular in Japan, and he's hardly gotten any respect in the past Smash games. If I had to choose between the two, I'd say that Dixie is more likely. She was planned for Brawl as a tag team character with Diddy, so Sakurai might want to use his old move-set plans and flesh her out into a standalone fighter.
Palutena & Medusa - It's likely that one of these will be included, but not both; Kid Icarus is barely a big enough series to deserve two characters. All things considered, I'd go with Palutena.
Saki & Starfy - Looking at the first three Smash Bros. games, I just don't see their respective franchises as being big enough to warrant playable representation.
Black Shadow - Besides Pit and R.O.B. (retro characters), every Brawl newcomer had appeared within the two years prior to Sakurai's completion of the planning document in July 2005. Unless there's a new F-Zero in the works, Black Shadow is far too irrelevant. Even then, I'd consider Samurai Goroh more likely.
Raptomex
Member
I suppose so. My main problem with Brawl was the gameplay. Too slow imo.
For Palutena and Medusa, I think we will definitely see one of them, and I think depending on how well the first goddess that is revealed is received (as well as how popular the goddess that is not in is), the other one would be a hidden character. Still, I am going to wait until Uprising is released until I assess how likely it is we will get both goddesses.
For Black Shadow, I agree that things look grim for a F-Zero newcomer character (especially one with an unique moveset). If it were not for the fact that Black Shadow would be a natural fit for Ganondorf's current moveset, I would not be expecting a F-Zero newcomer at all (unless Samurai Goroh manages to get in as a clone of Takamaru). I personally wish another F-Zero game would be made. Its definitely among the most underrated Nintendo series.
For Saki and Starfy, I agree with your assessment. In Starfy's place I could see some sort of "surprise" character getting in, while for Saki's place it would probably be EAD's/Miyamoto's new IP project that they have been mentioning since 2010. However, Mii's chances are also suspect due to the hostility the character has from hardcore Smash Bros. fans.
For K. Rool and Dixie Kong, I disagree. I saw K. Rool get plenty of requests for Smash 4 on Japanese forums. I think both are likely considering how highly K. Rool is requested, and the fact that Dixie Kong is highly requested too and was planned for Brawl (of which Sakurai probably had a moveset planned out). Considering that Sakurai is looking back now at his notes for Brawl and the Dojo, he may be reminded of his scrapped Dixie Kong moveset. There is genuinely no hostility to the idea of both K. Rool and Dixie Kong getting in Smash 4, though most fans think we will only get one or the other.
It's sort of a sad commentary on the current creative state of Nintendo, but the Mii is the closest thing they have to a big new character this generation. I don't think any fan hostility is going to sway Sakurai from including this character if he really wants to, especially considering how prevalent Miis have become since the creation of Brawl's planning document. Besides, we're talking about the guy who put R.O.B. in Brawl and kept Ganondorf as a semi-clone. I don't think he necessarily aims to cater to a vocal minority.
MisterHero
Super Member
I'm for a giant roster because Wii U would be more than capable of delivering, but yeah, it might be limited because of the 3DS version
Nocturnowl
Member
What were the theories back in the day for Brawl characters? it's been a while and I didn't truly get into the character guessing game until the dojo started up, was the arrival of Metaknight seen as lowering the odds of King Dedede before he was revealed? were Ike and Lucas expected as likely new candidates? Pokemon trainer was interesting looking back, I think he was requested but wasn't it usually involving stuff like attacking with key items like the wailmer pail, bicycle and fishing rod as attacks? (huh, reminds me of the Animal Crosser ideas).
Oh and cuts, aside from ones that happened I do remember freakouts regarding Ness and Shiek in particular being axed. "Up until now" and No down b mentioned for Zelda's special moves being the culprits, you know some sick side of me wants to see a dojo again just because of the madness it caused over little details.
Oh and cuts, aside from ones that happened I do remember freakouts regarding Ness and Shiek in particular being axed. "Up until now" and No down b mentioned for Zelda's special moves being the culprits, you know some sick side of me wants to see a dojo again just because of the madness it caused over little details.
As someone who followed the Brawl hype very closely, the only newcomers generally seen as a legitimate surprise were Pokémon Trainer, R.O.B., Toon Link, and Wolf. The rest were popular wish list staples.
Concerning the whole issue of having 4 DK characters in SSB4's roster:
Excusing the argument on whether King K. Rool is relevant anymore or not, I don't see the issue of Sakurai adding 2 new DK characters. DK is a big franchise, not on par with Mario/Pokemon/Zelda but DKCR has at least sold 5 million units. Mario, Pokemon and Zelda all have at least 4 characters since Melee. So I would not be shocked if Sakurai added 2 new DK characters to SSB4's roster.
EDIT: Just realize this may not be the argument against King K. Rool. But I just wanted to say.
Excusing the argument on whether King K. Rool is relevant anymore or not, I don't see the issue of Sakurai adding 2 new DK characters. DK is a big franchise, not on par with Mario/Pokemon/Zelda but DKCR has at least sold 5 million units. Mario, Pokemon and Zelda all have at least 4 characters since Melee. So I would not be shocked if Sakurai added 2 new DK characters to SSB4's roster.
EDIT: Just realize this may not be the argument against King K. Rool. But I just wanted to say.
Nocturnowl
Member
Toon Link and Wolf? I always thought they were considered quite likely, R.O.B was definitely a surprise though, funny in a way seeing as the SSE R.O.B squad were shown quite early on, even more so when I remember all the ancient minister speculation.
Black-Wind
Member
Here's how I see it ...
One of the only things we know about SSB4 is that it will be on 2 systems and one (the 3DS) will allow you to customize/ build up your character before taking them to the WU game.
From what I gather, in a fighting game customization could be any of 4 things ...
1. Appearance/ cosmetic things (alt outfits or models like Wario and Wario Land Wario in Brawl. Color matching, changing the color or appearance of an effect like "blue flames" for Mario's fire balls or maybe make him throw out pills instead and such)
2. Attack customization (being able to pick a different set of B moves for example. Like stances in some other games)
3. Stat customization (changing stats to make your Bowser faster than the default Bowser at the loss of power or heaviness or w/e)
4. All or any mixture of the above
That's all I can really get from the thought that you will somehow be able to customize characters. NOW, the thought that I posted before is that maybe they will incorporate clones into this. Clones, from the melee stance of "same attacks and animations, stats are slightly different and the model is swapped out" are damn easy to make.
So being able to unlock clones through stat changing could actually work really well. Change Mario Stats so that he's stronger? Well here, you can go the next step and just have Doc. Mario. Want your Pikachu to be stronger and heavier with the loss of speed? You can go the next step and just take Raichu with the side effect of having a larger character on top of the loss in speed.
Same can go with "Stances". Say Mario has 3 different set of B moves ... Mario can wear different suits to reflect the different B move stances. Raccoon Tail Mario may have a better recovery along with the ability to glide for example.
That, IMO, would be some of the best use for "clones". It would artificially inflate the amount of characters without having to actually make them unique because they're just model swaps and most all of the characters in Brawl have something from their games that they can use a model swap for.
I disagree. Wolf actually had slightly more requests than Krystal in the Western fanbase (and that is not counting Japanese support where Wolf requests were very high, while Krystal requests low). Toon Link (requested as Wind Waker Link) was actually the most requested Zelda newcomer next to Midna.
The characters that I saw that took everyone by surprise were:
- Zero Suit Samus (everyone was expecting either Ridley or Dark Samus)
- Snake (even when the topic of third-party characters came up prior to Brawl's announcement no one ever thought of Snake due to his scarce appearances on Nintendo console in relation to the realism and violence in his franchise in comparison to most of Nintendo's IPs)
- Pokemon Trainer (there were some people suggesting Pokemon Trainer, though no one was expecting him to be a three-characters-in-one type deal)
- ROB (there were many who though he was de-confirmed due to being an enemy in the Subspace Emissary)
Yeah, Wolf and Toon Link were seen as likely additions, and were very popularly requested.
That is what I have been saying too. Donkey Kong is Nintendo's biggest franchise next to Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon.
Professor Beef
Banned
ROB is so stupid. I have a friend who has a megaboner over him, and always says "ROB SAVED THE GAMING INDUSTRY, YOU HAVE TO LIKE HIM."
No, I really fucking don't.
ZSS and Snake were surprising, but I didn't mention them because they were among the first characters announced. I was only thinking about the later reveals... for some dumb reason.
I definitely remember Krystal being one of the most-mentioned characters prior to release -- a lot of people considered her a shoo-in. And then there was the whole voice actress thing that made people even more certain about her inclusion. I rarely saw Wolf's name thrown around, honestly. Odd.
Wolf had the edge in requests up until that fiasco about Krystal's Star Fox Assault voice actress said she was doing voice work in Brawl (which made many people think Krystal was automatically confirmed for Brawl). People thought that either Wolf or Krystal was going to get in Brawl. There was also the matter that a "Dark Fox" pallette color on the Dojo made people think that Wolf was deconfirmed.
It turned out that the voice actress was actually doing voice work for Zero Suit Samus, and that she did do Krystal's voice too... as a non-playable character.
However, also keep in mind that Wolf was a character that was popularly requested since Melee too, of which there were many people who thought he was a shoe-in then due to his appearance in the Melee introduction (along with Ridley and Samurai Goroh).
I think everyone now realizes that Sakurai made the right choice, especially considering that the only new game in the Star Fox series since Brawl's release was Star Fox 64 3D and that much of Krystal's popularity has evaporated. Also, for Wolf being such a late addition to the roster (either the last or second-to-last character) he is only four moves away from being a completely unique character. I think they will go the extra mile and simply give Wolf a two different specials and new Final Smash. I don't think its really fair to label Luigi, Wolf, and Lucas "clones".
What's with the hate on ROB? He was a fun fighter. :l
I think also ROB represents the last of Nintendo's toy making legacy (they made toys before they went into video games). ROB was also designed by Gunpei Yokoi, whom pretty much designed the NES/Famicom and SNES/Super Famicom controllers as well as the Game Boy. He was also the father of the Game & Watch.
Professor Beef
Banned
I don't like ROB at all, but I have to respect how good he is when I'm fighting against him.
Nocturnowl
Member
Your avatar makes this golden I tell you!
R.O.B was an addition I really disliked at first but he's not that bad to play as, I warmed up to him a fair bit over time.
Professor Beef
Banned
OH GOD DAMMIT I JUST NOTICED
Cena is hustling his way into my posting patterns. March can't arrive soon enough!
Looking back at the old games...
Melee
NES character - Ice Climbers
WTF retro accessory/hardware character - Mr. Game & Watch
Brawl
NES character - Pit
WTF retro accessory/hardware character - R.O.B.
Do you think Sakurai is going to make this a trend? There are a bunch of classic NES characters left to explore (Takamaru, Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, etc.), but what about a left field character in the vein of G&W or R.O.B.? I can only think of Diskun and an all-encompassing Duck Hunt character comprising both the dog and the ducks.
Melee
NES character - Ice Climbers
WTF retro accessory/hardware character - Mr. Game & Watch
Brawl
NES character - Pit
WTF retro accessory/hardware character - R.O.B.
Do you think Sakurai is going to make this a trend? There are a bunch of classic NES characters left to explore (Takamaru, Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, etc.), but what about a left field character in the vein of G&W or R.O.B.? I can only think of Diskun and an all-encompassing Duck Hunt character comprising both the dog and the ducks.
I'll bite:
1. Kamek (Yoshi series)
3. Tingle (Zelda series)
11. Mr. Stevenson (Gumshoe)
FUCK YEAH!
Nice! I'm glad Kamek is finally catching on, I've been trumpeting him for years
Awesome choice of Mr. Stevenson. He would be a great WTF character, and if tingle was ever included this game would immediately be god tier, tripping and all. I've resigned myself to the fact that it will never happen though...
Green Mamba
Member
When the final roster to Brawl was revealed the only one that I truly didn't think had a chance that made it in was Wolf. I was a pretty ardent Wolf denier (though I'm fine with his inclusion now). I was one of the few R.O.B. supporters pre-Brawl, so I was pleasantly surprised when his addition was confirmed despite being a common enemy in the Subspace Emissary.
Pre release Snake and Pokemon Trainer were pretty big surprises.
Pre release Snake and Pokemon Trainer were pretty big surprises.
I have noticed this too. I think the classic NES character that will be resurrected next will be either Takamaru or Mach Rider. As for Diskun, surprisingly, I made a moveset for that character a while ago. I think Diskun is more obscure than either Mr. Game & Watch and ROB though.
Green Mamba
Member
Don't forget that Mach Rider originated as a toy in the seventies. Could potentially be both?
Green Mamba
Member
I wouldn't be unsurprised to see like, a small teaser or a logo reveal or something, but I doubt we'll get a trailer on the level of the first Brawl trailer--development on this is only just beginning.
Black-Wind
Member
I wouldn't expect anything less than that trailer actually.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
What most likely list? I thought it was wish list.
I don't expect ANY e3 trailer but if they show one then I will be very happy.
Preach it, brother!
Professor Beef
Banned
I'm expecting a quick (probably 30 seconds) "hey, we're still making this" announcement. Expecting more is foolish.
I am not expecting a trailer on the level that Brawl had. At the most we will get a short CG trailer that confirms Smash 4's name and only one newcomer... Mega Man.
It was a little different for me. I wanted Wolf to be in but I really didn't think he had a chance. I was afraid that Krystal would make it in, but nope my fears were untrue! Was so glad to see Wolf getting a slot in the roster.
ROB honestly surprised me, when I first heard that he was confirmed I immediately thought "Holy shit, is this actually true? HOLY SHIT!"
I'm gonna go ahead and mention someone no one else is going to: Lark from Pilotwings (also known as Nester from Nintendo Power magazine).
There are so many possibilities for moves from Pilotwings: Rocket Belt jetpack, Hangglider, Gyrocopter (with missiles), Jumble Hopper boots, Bird suit, Human canonball, etc. Hell, even opening up a parachute would make a good ^B move. And if you want a more-than-subtle hint to his true identity, one of his moves can be rolling a bowling ball along the ground, from Nester's Funky Bowling on the Virtual Boy.
You're totally right, I'm gonna move him up a bit. Maybe I shouldn't have called the list Never, more like Improbable.
If I recall correctly, they had to buy a licence to make that toy, so it's not a Nintendo-created character.
Our Mach Rider is way cooler anyway
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