Next Xbox is ‘More Advanced’ Than the PS5 according to Insiders.
- Thread starter Afro Republican
- Start date
Freeman454
Member
Digesting that something could potentionally be more powerfull then a Sony product, must be hard.
LuvOfThaGame
Banned
He's had quite the obsessive rant the past week.
Freeman454
Member
He's had quite the obsessive rant the past week.
Was an easy time with the One. I'm sure Sony will be more popular the coming gen too, but they will have more competition this time around.
Shin
Banned
Make of it what you will, he also interviewed https://twitter.com/XboxQwik to get their response about PS5 announcement.
The image is from an Xbox Software engineer apparently (via Reddit).
The image is from an Xbox Software engineer apparently (via Reddit).
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SonGoku
Member
30% is certainly doable if Snek targets $499 while PS5 target $399
What im saying is we won't see big gaps such as X vs Pro or tech differences (EUV, ZEN3, NAVI+) unless MS releases a year later
People who overestimate MS game services profitability and their willingness to bleed money over their tiny (by comparison) gaming division often forget how huge and profitable the PlayStation division is for Sony and PS+ has been making them bank. If they see the need to subsidize the PS5 for game changing tech, they will,
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This is what my evil side is kind of hoping for.
• Sony's hardware ends up being significantly more powerful than MS's.
• XB2 gets two GOTY contenders vs none for PS5 in 2020-2021.
• The internet burns. I'll bring the hotdogs, and you can bring the buns. Anybody wanna bring drinks?
SonGoku
Member
Name a few
DF done many analysis of early/midgen games that were not taking advantage of CELL and instead rellied entirely on RSX. They cover step by step the differences between PS360 in said games and it always comes up to Some strenth Xenos had or a Weakness RSX had.
Even ND went on record stating they relied entirely on the RSX for UC1 and that for UC2 they took advantage of CELL and credit CELL for the graphical leap between UC1 & UC2.
Name just 5 them, if you even can, its because of offloading graphic tasks to CELL giving RSX more headroom
You wouldn't. CELL needed its XDR pool.
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Freeman454
Member
Like they did with PS3. After PS2's huge success Sony went crazy. I dont think they should focus too much on having high-end hardware, as it wont make that much of a difference anyway nowadays, diminishing returns and all that. From PSX to PS2 huge difference, PS2 to PS3 quite a difference but less, PS3 to PS4 even less.
Even more so when PS5 gets non-3d person/movie-cinematic varied AAA games. MS has a problem then.
Not saying your wrong or anything like that, just wanted to say that he's a actual developer if that means anything
SonGoku
Member
It doesn't work that way, if yields are that bad you won't get nowhere near 1 million chips for launch. You'll be lucky to get 200k units for launch.
You don't know this, just bias on your part.
Their goal is to build the best console they can for a set price point ($499, $399 etc) and they will use use the best tech available for volume production
I don't remember ever reading in DF a game running at 2x the rez on PS3 over 360. Even the shoddiest of PS3 ports could maintain some level of resolution parityNot saying your wrong or anything like that, just wanted to say that he's a actual developer if that means anything
Games running at slightly higher resolutions on PS3 were rare. So im rather curious for his response.
Ironically what bled PS3 the most money was BD and the CELL fab and R&D.
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TLZ
Banned
I was searching for an appropriate gif for you. I saw this and couldn't stop laughing.Looks like me in a pub drinking some beers and writing on the paper
I'm drinking now... do you guys wants to see my leaks?
Kinda feels like what we're all in with all these leaks
thelastword
Banned
4 Billion in R&D and we had to settle for an overpriced and underperforming RSX, What could have been if the originally specced PS3 GPU was ready/delivered in 2006.......That console would have been Ken's Magnum Opus....
And yeah, Nvidia will never get console business again....They had OG XBOX and 360 business and MS still ditched them for XBONE....I guess NV suing MS for OG XBOX, wanting more money per chip, started the slide. NV, typically sells their ware for more than it's worth.....So I guess they realized they had too much in comon with MS, there's usually always friction with such compositions or similar factions.........
TLZ
Banned
I can't read anything actually. Need to register.Posted?
Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [pre E3 2019] *spawn*
would love for the nextgen consoles to be user-upgradable beyond just the storage.. nice modular pieces parts. Oh, you want the midgen cpu and gpu upgrade? Just slide out the main board model and slide in this upgrade board. All similiar to older style laptop modules. Ah yes, the holy grail...forum.beyond3d.com
SonGoku
Member
yikes that much? Sony really was betting on CELL taking over the world.
Hindsight 20/20 and all but how dumb was is it to think they could make a GPU from scratch? Should have just went with ATI for the design. Maybe Nvidia if they were willing to design them a 8800 gt type gpu but i doubt it.
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TLZ
Banned
Thanks for posting it.It's been debunked already & even at full size it's still hard to read lol
So according to this guy, both lockhart and Anaconda are running custom Navi at 1.455ghz. The only difference between them is the number of CUs; Lockhart 30 and Anaconda 60.
Lockhart: 30cu x 64 x 2 x 1455 = 5.587 TF
Anaconda: 60cu x 64 x 2 x 1455 = 11.174 TF
Well.... If this is true, I expected Anaconda to be near the 14TF. Kind of surprised Anaconda isn't pushing higher speeds, like 1.6-1.8 or something. Oh well.
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SonGoku
Member
Goes to show that just because a rumor is incredibly elaborated and detailed doesn't make it real. Hoaxers live for that shit
That HBM + DDR4 rumor is the same, i don't believe it for a second.
SonGoku
Member
What use is there for AI/Tensor cores in gaming consoles?
TLZ
Banned
Ah yes. I just read the whole thing (registered on their website. Too curious). Very interesting information on there, especially the 2 RCCs working asynchronously with the GPU. So theoretically, if this info is correct, Anaconda is around 13TF and Lockhart 6.5TF, right?
Also read the SSD part and them opting for Sata III instead of Nvme.
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Night.Ninja
Banned
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somerset
Member
Thanks to AMD, Sony and MS are going head-to-head, and each needs to be the 'winner'. This competition is going to 'up-spec' each machine more than would have been the case in earlier times.
But there is a limit of how high either can go.
AMD's core new tech is 4-chiplets around an I/O die. Each chiplet can be a CPU or GPU cluster. One chiplet should push close to a 1080TI (2080) in performance, or hold 8 zen2 cores. Of course this manufacturing option is not an APU- but the use of AMD APUs for consoles is a new thing- a console like the PS2 was loaded with various CPU and GPU chips.
An APU is 'cheap'. Going to seperate GPU and CPU chips (like a PC today) is more expensive (and unlikely now). Going to AMD's full-on 4-spot chiplet solution is expensive, but its a 'one socket' (yeah, I know sockets ain't used on consoles) solution. And one entity to cool.
However, if either Sony or MS goes too crazy, it delays their console and allows the 'enemy' to release first (basic 7nm next gen console can hit Xmas season 2019 trivially). MS is gimmick-free this time- Sony has a state-of-the-art VR solution as an option.
I think Sony will go GPU-per-eye, and have the two GPUs work together for non-VR gaming. MS should go one big fat GPU- probably significantly better than 1080TI level. And both companies, if they use basic 7nm, can have improved versions of their consoles within 2-3 years on the tweaked 7nm process. If either were insane, and delayed to next year, they'd be on a tweaked process with nowhere guaranteed to go after that for years and years- for the next true process shrink after 7nm isn't even on the horizon yet.
The only reason for the crazy speculation today- and claims of 2020 release, is because AMD has yet to release Zen2 and Navi on the PC side. Yet a little history teaches us AMD always gets its new tech ready and perfected for consoles first (much to the frustration of AMD PC gaming fans). AMD has been partnering MS and Sony with Navi tech *and* their GPU tech after Navi for several years now. PS5 and Xbox Next will have Navi+ while the first discrete PC navi cards will be vanilla first gen Navi - that's just how AMD chooses to roll.
And talking of History, the dreadful specs of the Xbox One is something MS is determined to never repeat. Dreadful incompetence at MS (linked to their focus on Kinect and always on spying) allowed Sony to get all the good AMD tech for the PS4, while MS engineering 'geniuses' forced AMD to use that hopeless discrete GPU RAM chip they were so proud of.
Today MS is as anti-gimmick as possible, and wants a plain gaming super system. MS even killed of its VR gaming projects to keep this pure focus. Xbox Next has one design goal- to be faster than the PS5 in conventional 4K gaming. MS wants Sony's VR fixation to cost it the plain gaming crown. In other words as it is today with the 1X crushing the pro.
Until we can get our hands on AMD's PC zen2 and navi- also made at TSMC for the first time- we don't have a proper guide to the reach of AMD's new tech. And there is still the outside chance that something is wrong with AMD's new tech on 7nm. But given this isn't the case, I think most people here will be shocked at just how ambitious both MS and Sony are with their new consoles.
But there is a limit of how high either can go.
AMD's core new tech is 4-chiplets around an I/O die. Each chiplet can be a CPU or GPU cluster. One chiplet should push close to a 1080TI (2080) in performance, or hold 8 zen2 cores. Of course this manufacturing option is not an APU- but the use of AMD APUs for consoles is a new thing- a console like the PS2 was loaded with various CPU and GPU chips.
An APU is 'cheap'. Going to seperate GPU and CPU chips (like a PC today) is more expensive (and unlikely now). Going to AMD's full-on 4-spot chiplet solution is expensive, but its a 'one socket' (yeah, I know sockets ain't used on consoles) solution. And one entity to cool.
However, if either Sony or MS goes too crazy, it delays their console and allows the 'enemy' to release first (basic 7nm next gen console can hit Xmas season 2019 trivially). MS is gimmick-free this time- Sony has a state-of-the-art VR solution as an option.
I think Sony will go GPU-per-eye, and have the two GPUs work together for non-VR gaming. MS should go one big fat GPU- probably significantly better than 1080TI level. And both companies, if they use basic 7nm, can have improved versions of their consoles within 2-3 years on the tweaked 7nm process. If either were insane, and delayed to next year, they'd be on a tweaked process with nowhere guaranteed to go after that for years and years- for the next true process shrink after 7nm isn't even on the horizon yet.
The only reason for the crazy speculation today- and claims of 2020 release, is because AMD has yet to release Zen2 and Navi on the PC side. Yet a little history teaches us AMD always gets its new tech ready and perfected for consoles first (much to the frustration of AMD PC gaming fans). AMD has been partnering MS and Sony with Navi tech *and* their GPU tech after Navi for several years now. PS5 and Xbox Next will have Navi+ while the first discrete PC navi cards will be vanilla first gen Navi - that's just how AMD chooses to roll.
And talking of History, the dreadful specs of the Xbox One is something MS is determined to never repeat. Dreadful incompetence at MS (linked to their focus on Kinect and always on spying) allowed Sony to get all the good AMD tech for the PS4, while MS engineering 'geniuses' forced AMD to use that hopeless discrete GPU RAM chip they were so proud of.
Today MS is as anti-gimmick as possible, and wants a plain gaming super system. MS even killed of its VR gaming projects to keep this pure focus. Xbox Next has one design goal- to be faster than the PS5 in conventional 4K gaming. MS wants Sony's VR fixation to cost it the plain gaming crown. In other words as it is today with the 1X crushing the pro.
Until we can get our hands on AMD's PC zen2 and navi- also made at TSMC for the first time- we don't have a proper guide to the reach of AMD's new tech. And there is still the outside chance that something is wrong with AMD's new tech on 7nm. But given this isn't the case, I think most people here will be shocked at just how ambitious both MS and Sony are with their new consoles.
thelastword
Banned
Everything was in house at the time with Sony collaborating with IBM and Toshiba on the project. I think Ken really wanted it to work, but he was under pressure, lots of money had been invested and he was behind schedule for his lofty ambitions....Of course, I agree with you, that if Sony originally went with ATI or even NV from the get-go, they would have had a much better GPU solution than RSX, at significantly less money that went into Cell, primarily their vision of "double cell" thta is.....I still say, too bad, because all that work that went on there could have had some seriously impressive results back then......Lots of bandwidth and power.....More 60fps games could have been a possibility.
People joke on cell all the time, but most times people make jokes of things they don't understand....I personally think Ken is a genius, and you know what, instead of the petty wars that exist nowadays amongst journalists, trying to grab any morsels from large companies for favors, I'd wish they would go interview Ken Kutaragi in Japan and let him give us the lowdown on what happened "tech wise" with PS3 development and his vision for it......They could even go to Kaz Hirai and Howard Stringer on a three pronged probe to get the business side chat and get us info as to what was said to Kutaragi when double cell was not panning on time.....Granted Ken would be the main man and could answer most of the pertinent questions, but I believe it's the right time to get some info on what went down officially, instead of just the rumormill+morsels that we have been privy to....
Personally I felt double cell would have been great and thought single cell alone showed how impressive it was with PS3 exclusives. Double cell would have pioneered GPGPU/GPP even more so than what we're seeing now, but again general purpose processing is the future anyway......I think some people really are not aware as to how many processes run on the Cell on PS3 in simul....Lots of ND and Dice docs around........Anyway, watch this...
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/a3/0b/22/82a0aba0622177/US20020138637A1.pdf
More than I could name because AI can be trained to do a lot but for the lower power Xbox it could be used for super resolution upscaling from 1080P to 4K & for raytracing & volume rendering it can be used to denoise the image . then there is gameplay & voice commends , think about having a game with a very large data base of responses & able have somewhat of an idea of what you're saying & quickly go through it's data base & respond to you like Alexa.
I really don't have a clue what RCC is so I'm clueless as to how that would work but I do know that the person that wrote this up used TFLOP instead of TFLOPS when talking about 1 TFLOPS as if they didn't know that the s is for seconds. so I wouldn't read too much into this
TLZ
Banned
I know his handwriting makes it hard, but he does explain what it is and how it works. I can type it up here if you're finding his writing hard to read.
ANIMAL1975
Member
Don't get me wrong, it's been a wonderful ride! Haven't been so much in Gaf since the pre mid-gen refresh. And i love it _ love the leaks, love the tech findings and explanations that people like you, onK and others bring to the discussion,.... and love the meltdowns, the exaggerations, the turnarounds, everything! I love the hype train and already missed it
CyberPanda
Banned
havok75
Member
This can't be underesitmated.
Geki-D
Banned
It wouldn't be all that big a deal... But MS has sort of already promised they would always have the most powerful system on the market. They've set up expectations they're going to have to meet and if Sony push a 599 system, MS either has to go over or take a bigger hit. And taking a hit if they system doesn't take off could be a disaster.
Unless they just don't release a more powerful system and try and play it down.
Why is everyone forgetting Xbox One X? It's not like that SKU is suddenly gone, sits right in the middle in the TF range.
Lockhart 4 TF, Dollar 249,99
Xbox One X 6 TF, Dollar 350
Lockhart 9 TF, Dollar 399 - 449
Anaconda 13 TF + , Dollar 499 - 549.
I bet it will be something like this.
Lockhart 4 TF, Dollar 249,99
Xbox One X 6 TF, Dollar 350
Lockhart 9 TF, Dollar 399 - 449
Anaconda 13 TF + , Dollar 499 - 549.
I bet it will be something like this.
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I honestly couldn't care less which is more powerful or can provide the best resolution etc. Put simply I'll go where the games are, which this gen has been Sony by far. If Xbox can show off some better exclusives before the console's release (ones that won't end up canceled anyway) then I'll consider changing, but it won't be for the promise of better graphics.
chigstoke
Member
Yes, but remember the X uses Jaguar. Even with the OC to 2.3, it's still severely underpowered. Good GPU, terrible CPU. The Lockhart will be better purely for Ryzen CPU. It'll smash 1080p fine I reckon.
I also think it'll be more than 4 TF on baseline.
One S @ 1.3 TF £199
X @ 6 TF, Jag CPU Some discounted price £250?
Lockhart @ 6ish TF £329 - £349
Anaconda @ Whatever the fuck Anaconda ends up being, £499
As a performance tier.
ethomaz
Banned
Nobody is forgetting X it just it will be a last gen machine not on pair with the new gen machines.
ethomaz
Banned
I don't know but it is starting to feel like MisterXMedia is back.
ABrokenToy
Member
XBOX can be as powerful as it wants, but they don't have Sony 1st party.
Shin
Banned
By "more advanced" I think it will be a dedicated psychics engine, Microsoft has a patent for it and they bought Havok.
Just like PlayStation will have it's own customization(s) to the SoC, things they haven't publicly discussed as of yet.
The common grounds will likely be 3D audio, ray-tracing, SSD, those idea's were probably pitched to both by AMD.
Just like PlayStation will have it's own customization(s) to the SoC, things they haven't publicly discussed as of yet.
The common grounds will likely be 3D audio, ray-tracing, SSD, those idea's were probably pitched to both by AMD.
ResilientBanana
Member
Microsoft is forming and buying up studios to do what? As far as Microsoft is concerned they have to start somewhere. Something tells me that they are working on quite a few new IP's.
Yes but you get a shittier version of a game on a One X, it al scales down. But consumers have a choice.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The Xbox One X is gonna be a weird machine in 2 years. With Lockhart and Anaconda out......where does the Xbox One X sit as far as pricing?
SaucyJack
Member
I'm not anti-MS in anyway, having owned their consoles prior to the One, but they frustrate the hell out of me. I personally think Microsoft's biggest problem in gaming is the lack of a coherent long-term strategy and the commitment to stick to it. It affected their design of the Xbox One and their response to that not working. The One X was knee jerk response to one-up the Pro, but it hasn't really worked. And let's not get started on their decades long cluelessness in relation to PC gaming.
That people seriously think that they could have 4 Xbox models on the market at the same time next year shows how incoherent their strategy is.
Their weakness, for a long time has been quantity and variety of the first party offering, and they sure have moved to address that through acquisitions, which will at least give them more titles - but that will be for nought without good management, strategy, time and commitment.
Having the most powerful consoles on the market is not a coherent strategy in itself. It needs to be part of a bigger plan. I think J Allard understood that, not so sure that the current crew do.
Sony, with Cerny et al seem to know exactly what they are trying to achieve, how their pieces fit together. They may not get every detail right but it looks far more coherent overall.
That people seriously think that they could have 4 Xbox models on the market at the same time next year shows how incoherent their strategy is.
Their weakness, for a long time has been quantity and variety of the first party offering, and they sure have moved to address that through acquisitions, which will at least give them more titles - but that will be for nought without good management, strategy, time and commitment.
Having the most powerful consoles on the market is not a coherent strategy in itself. It needs to be part of a bigger plan. I think J Allard understood that, not so sure that the current crew do.
Sony, with Cerny et al seem to know exactly what they are trying to achieve, how their pieces fit together. They may not get every detail right but it looks far more coherent overall.
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prinz_valium
Member
Are you trolling at this point? Do you know anything about semiconductor production.
Yields are not bad. I talk about Wafer output. You get better yields with lower output, when you increase the mJ dose.
Just do the math with the respective WPH, Wafer Size, expected yield and die size.
That is easily doable.
335mm² dies at 60% yield is 17k functioning chips per hour at 7nm+ using the new NXE:3400C from ASML
120 hours or 5 days are needed for 2 million.
Dabaus
Banned
Wasnt there a "Leak" that said the Lock heart wouldnt have a disc drive? Anybody have a link to that? How do you think next gen would play out if Lockheart was indeed only 4-5 terra flops with no discdrive while the Anaconda is something like 11-12 tflops but 500-600 hundred dollars?
ethomaz
Banned
It will be discontinued as soon as next-gen consoles sales spike imo.
Pro will be the same.
PS4 and XB1 will live a bit more (price will be the key here)... PS4 probably will be the longest.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I'm just so confused by MS's supposed console ideas here. Why does Lockhart exist if it's potentially weaker than the Xbox One X, but has a better CPU but also has no disc drive? Is Lockhart supposed to replace the Xbox One X? Like I'm confused. And what gamers out there is asking for all of this?
ResilientBanana
Member
Would lockhart require 6TF if it's not targeting 4k? I'm thinking it could produce the visuals of Anaconda without the resolution. But I could be wrong. The Xbox One X was targeting more resolution which is why it's as beastly as it is.
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AltogetherAndrews
Banned
It should be somewhat concerning if MS is 3 generations deep and has to "start somewhere" for the launch of the 4th lol.
Personally, I don't think Microsoft gives a shit about Xbox hardware, but I'm frequently wrong.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
There's zero percent chance it could produce Anaconda visuals at 1080p. The GPU is 65% less, the RAM is cut in half, and the bandwidth is also cut in half.
TTOOLL
Member
You guys know that if the next Xbox is significantly ahead of ps5 it will cost a lot more, right? Is MS bold enough to throw a 599 console on the market?
We've seen it before and it wasn't beautiful. Also, it was the successor of the most successful console of all time but it didn't matter. Xbox is in third place this gen? I'm not following the market closely, I know PS4 was the leader and now Switch is selling a lot.
Anyway, I'm expecting the ps5 at 449 ~ 499 USD. Can't see MS going beyond that or selling the console at loss.
Just my 2 cents on this.
We've seen it before and it wasn't beautiful. Also, it was the successor of the most successful console of all time but it didn't matter. Xbox is in third place this gen? I'm not following the market closely, I know PS4 was the leader and now Switch is selling a lot.
Anyway, I'm expecting the ps5 at 449 ~ 499 USD. Can't see MS going beyond that or selling the console at loss.
Just my 2 cents on this.