Exentryk
Member
Nice, thanks. The demo probably had this, but I can't recall.
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NieR: Automata |OT| "I wouldn't expect too much from this game if I were you."
- Thread starter BRSxIgnition
- Start date
Nice, thanks. The demo probably had this, but I can't recall.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Its not.
Good combat and gameplay =/= Good combat systems.
Posting gifs of combing a singular enemy is not representative of the games standard gameplay, which is always about crowd control.
(Not saying i agree with anything that person said though cause lol)
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
It makes me wonder what someone did to play for 6 hours and come up with that lol
I am struggling to see how you could even come to this conclusion.
Besides the fact that your post has a lot of revisionist history as far as the first Nier is concerned, like, I'm assuming you played through at least two routes of the original Nier, but it's like this is your first Yoko Taro rodeo.
Almost everything he does, every story beat he explains, and every weird gameplay quirk is done with a particular purpose in mind. You should know that the man is a big fan of sweeping the rug from under your feet.
But if you're going to come in saying "well obviously it wouldn't reach the heights of the first Nier," yeah, maybe you should just quit while you're ahead to be honest.
Exentryk
Member
GwyndolinCinder
Member
What's wrong with using this awesome combat system for a crowd?
Well theres nothing deep going on there at all....
But at usual with yours post, theres no point responding since you havent played the game, that is not a crowd...
I mean, what do we have to compare it to?
The Witcher 3
Horizon
FFXV
Persona 5
Yakuza 0
Etc...
It's easily better than some of these, and easily on par with others. It's quite obviously a very good combat system for the genre, and while it obliviously can't compare to the depth of a pure action game like DMC or Bayo, it's definitely got more depth than what we've come to expect from an action RPG.
Eh, Horizon is incredibly generic and bland in every single design aside from its mechanical creatures and cauldron areas. I get the technical superiority can't be argued, but Horizon is a very bland game in terms of art design for the most part.
Nier is a perfect example of the value of strong art design, it's just so utterly charming.
I tried playing blindfolded but couldn't get past the flight portion, so I guess more power to him
Napalm_Frank
Member
I assume all items with the ''Can be exchanged for money'' description are only useful for selling? Like fish, earrings ect.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Yup.
Exentryk
Member
For depth, you can see it in Jiraiza's gifs. Similar techniques can be applied to crowds too. You probably just need to use your imagination about skill combinations and git gud.
I only realised this a few hours in, and when I did I had 100k+ suddenly after being cash starved because I didn't realise.
For some reason I felt a little overwhelmed/lost/confused with this game for the first few hours, things like this I would have looked for out of instinct I didn't notice... I'm not sure if this is anything to do with the way the game's presented or my current state of mind, but I did struggle a little at the start to make sense of everything.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I don't really know if crowd control really is even that important because there's usually enough delay between individual enemy attacks to wing it, plus perfect evade, plus overclock, plus using the pod at the same time. I prefer fists, greatswords, wave, and wire
Exentryk
Member
Yeah, and from theory crafting, an ATK build with Taunt + charged Mirage alone would probably kill most crowds. Of course I'd like to test this stuff in-game, but there are so many things you can do.
It's fine to criticize a game after 6 hours, especially a game like Nier, which in terms of Platinum games, means you've already completed 50% of the game?
I decided I didn't like Nioh after 13 or so hours. I could guess how the rest of the game would go and decided to quit. Does that make my opinion less valid? Do I need to complete a game before saying I don't like it? Nah.
If you stop reading a book because you find it boring, does that make your opinion less valid?
No. One shouldn't have to complete someone to know something is not for him or her.
It always takes a bit of time before people go against the hype, and this person voicing his opinions is just a bit too soon.
I decided I didn't like Nioh after 13 or so hours. I could guess how the rest of the game would go and decided to quit. Does that make my opinion less valid? Do I need to complete a game before saying I don't like it? Nah.
If you stop reading a book because you find it boring, does that make your opinion less valid?
No. One shouldn't have to complete someone to know something is not for him or her.
It always takes a bit of time before people go against the hype, and this person voicing his opinions is just a bit too soon.
Managing crowds in this game is very easy as everything is telegraphed so obviously, and I think that's part of the combat's charm. It's a very simple rhythm and one that's easy to slip into, but it has room to get a little creative or push for most efficient clears. There's depth enough to have fun with if you want more than a button masher.
The only thing that bugs me about is that sometimes the frames drop a little too much during larger battles and things can get a bit confusing, but that's not an inherent problem with the battle system itself.
The only thing that bugs me about is that sometimes the frames drop a little too much during larger battles and things can get a bit confusing, but that's not an inherent problem with the battle system itself.
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
Nope, completing the game would be 35-40 hours. It's more of a standard RPG not a character action game. Of course it's fine to criticise a game after playing any amount of it but if you're going to get basic details wrong it's not surprising people are likely to correct you on them
What makes a good combat system then? I mean, if you're going to complain about the bosses being lackluster, that's not really a fault of the combat system, but the developers who designed them. This game has a good base. It's another story if we're talking about whether the developers designed the enemy encounters around it, though.
Actually, to be fair, I do find that some issues do come out because of the way the game is designed... like, all that fun stuff you can do, I pretty much didn't do it on Very Hard because of some combination between the awful checkpointing, the loading times and moves like spear lunge.
(even that person's combo video that Jiraiza posted was having doubts about playing on Very Hard)
The balancing around the pods really needs more work because I ended up doing some encounters by just holding down missiles, which is something else that came about because of the above stuff I mentioned.
(like, I'd be more inclined to just go in had I not had to suffer through a long load time, forced walking and then random other stuff that I have to do up until the part of the encounter that actually gives me trouble)
Then, even on hard mode, I feel like they should have put more thought into a cap or something on healing items, because now, even though you have to do some degree of chip management in order to counteract OHKO, I'm encouraged to play sloppy because I can just mash the healing items.
(and I will mash because I'm scared of loading screens)
Though, these are pretty subtle things and I'm wondering if most people would notice this stuff, to be honest.
Aaaaaaaaa I just finished Route A! It was so much fun! I'm all shaky and worked up from all the final battles. Like, man, as soon as you get to the
, it's just non-stop intense moments. I couldn't put it down and now it's god damn 4:30am LMAO
I'm really excited about there being multiple routes, with what sounds like even greater story elements waiting for me. Cuz already I'm so enchanted! The world is soooo gorgeous, 2B and 9S are so charming so far, and I really enjoy how a lot of the side quests kinda give you further peeks into the world as you go.
Also, the music and what plays when is MMMMM SO ON POINT.
I really hope the rest of the routes and game continue to be as satisfying, because I am so in love so far.
flooded city
I'm really excited about there being multiple routes, with what sounds like even greater story elements waiting for me. Cuz already I'm so enchanted! The world is soooo gorgeous, 2B and 9S are so charming so far, and I really enjoy how a lot of the side quests kinda give you further peeks into the world as you go.
Also, the music and what plays when is MMMMM SO ON POINT.
I really hope the rest of the routes and game continue to be as satisfying, because I am so in love so far.
People saying the combat is bad is just...huh. Personally I think Automata completely destroys almost every action RPG out there in terms of combat. Dark Souls 3 and Bloodbourne are the only games that stack up with it imo. I hear Nioh has pretty amazing combat too but i have gotten a chance to play it. Platinum knocked it out of the partk Nier Automata's combat system.
It's not valid when:
1. The critique says "why isn't this in game" when it is in game, you just needed to play a little longer to unlock it.
2. The critique says "the story isn't good" when the story in this game unfolds over multiple playthroughs and the set-up at the start is slow/ambiguous/unexplained for a reason. I mean, you can say "right now I haven't played much but the story isn't really grabbing me", but you should also acknowledge you have no idea if it gets better, and especially if you know the developer's history with story telling you should be aware you /really/ don't have enough info to make the call yet.
3. When the person is saying the combat system is broken before paying attention and seeing they're literally doing it wrong.
4. When the opinion is being propped up by some terrible revisionist comparisons.
Yes, you don't have to complete a game to have an opinion, but you should apply some common sense too.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Yea i'm really trash at videogames and have no imagination.........that must be it.
Or maybe i just actually play alot of action games, spend alot time mastering their systems and so on....
How many gifs do i need to post before i pass your "Hey this guy whos actually played the game can have an opinion test".
The combat system is great, its everything else that ranges from lackluster to great.
Like alot of the encounters are just "Heres 20 enemies stacked together!" constantly and i switch to spear+greatsword and do that same combo till they die, because otherwise on hard it will take forever. (This is untill you get three pods and just hold POD attack to win).
Theres only a handful of well designed situations like we saw in the demo throughout the entire game.
Again when you actually play games, the whole balance part of the game is kind of a important deal.
Like bayonetta 2 has way worse gameplay than 1 for higher level players because of a few balance decisions.
- Climax made the game more about crowd control and building up a charge meter. (Pods)
- Game became balanced around witch time. (Perfect evade system here)
You think that is depth..... i mean that makes sense considering you keep saying from your demo experience "best action combat system ever made!!", so i guess you just havent played any other action games?
In terms of just raw feel, I really love the game. Stuff just feels fun to do: moving, hitting things, etc.
The stuff I complain about is kind of a level past that and is mostly just design stuff, but just sitting there and playing is a dream especially considering the other options I have for action RPGs lol
Exentryk
Member
Your complaints are more about balance and difficulty rather than the combat system itself. You CAN do all the cool stuff on Very Hard, but you'll probably get hit and die and reload and it'd be annoying. That's a different issue.
Chips making the game easy or harder is what these RPG mechanics are designed for.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Thinking of this as a Platinum game because they handled the combat is the first mistake, judging an RPGs story and characters by the first 5 hours and by how much they are or aren't exactly like the game preceding it is the second
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah the combat system is very good but they struggle to find a perfect balance on difficulty. You could button bash and heal your way through normal mode never paying any attention to the systems involved (although that might not be possible in the games second half). Because of this it can't be compared to Nioh or Dark Souls which require the player to learn all the tools to survive. The combat is very responsive, satisfying, incredibly deep and full of customisation but the game doesn't require you to use those tools which means some players will miss those elements.
It really is an action RPG and not a souls-like one so anyone expecting a character action game is going to be a little confused
It really is an action RPG and not a souls-like one so anyone expecting a character action game is going to be a little confused
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Go back and play a PS2 game, please. Pick a good one, say DMC3 or FFXII.
Then reflect on how silly your claim of "no hyperbole" is!
Exentryk
Member
You're essentially saying there is no depth while fighting crowds in this, and we are telling you that you are wrong. There is skillful play even when not using fancy moves like in that gif, but there is potential for depth if you explore your pod programs, chips, builds, launchers, move cancels, etc.
That user had no interest in a productive discussion, best to ignore from here I think.
Exentryk
Member
I think I saw/read that Platinum Games design their combat systems such that all levels of players can enjoy the combat. Casuals can button mash and get through (on easier difficulties), while people that really want to dig deep can also appreciate the depth. So easy to learn, hard to master.
If you can't see depth in the gif below and how people can apply similar techniques to crowds, then I don't think you understand what the word depth means.
I feel like it's actually very important to considering things like balance and difficulty and encounter design with respect to systems since it'll influence how you're using the systems: when I'm actively discouraged to use the cooler stuff, I'm finding this to be a problem.
And you can't say that I don't at least try: I actually figured out how to reliably launch a boss (on fucking Very Hard, no less lol) that spams a shield every time you try to attack it... this move actually leads a lot of people to default to pod spam because of how it's designed, even if the actual boss is fun to fight normally.
But I only bothered trying to even figure this out because the checkpoint wasn't stupid.
Like, the system for Gravity Rush 2 is amazing... but what's the point if they don't properly design scenarios around it?
I feel like OHKO is very appropriate for the game considering how powerful your characters are, but it's discouraging since they didn't bother to set up checkpoints well (I've even done convoluted things like doing a portion of a sequence, running back to a save spot and then continuing on to the next sequence... though, this lead to one particularly miserable sequence where I inadvertently made an encounter harder because all I did was make a mob spam in at the beginning of a fight as opposed to in the middle of it lol).
It's even more annoying considering that there's evidence that the development team would sometimes do checkpoints (and even insta-restarts without a damn loading screen).
I see your point. The enemy and encounter design in this game don't exactly ask too much from the player which does make those debug room GIFs pointless since they're just for show more than anything.
I guess stuff like weaknesses, resistances, or character status modifiers would go a long way in improving the encounters, as it would force the player not to auto-pilot on one weapon set or pod spam. But it's ultimately an action RPG where you get to max level and just demolish everything with the press of a button or two.
Exentryk
Member
Yeah, I'm not defending Very Hard, and feel it encourages people to be conservative. There are some chips like Reset that provide some help for Very Hard playthrough, but I don't feel like it's a good implementation. I play all games on the hardest difficulty, and even I'll be playing this one on Hard because of this OHK design (and scarce save points design).
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
To be fair some people do like it but I agree the encounters aren't really designed for a one hit kill mode. After playing the later sections of the game I totally wrote off the idea of a very hard play though. I actually think Hard mode is quite good though. It's just it expects you to also take advantage of the RPG side of the systems as well or it also becomes one hit kill quite quickly which isn't something most people are going to find very enjoyable. I think some people expected to be able to playing like a straight character action game and in the end there just is no mode like that here
Yeah, I don't think most people say that what is actually there is bad (I mean... I can actively make the game play like Bayonetta, which is awesome), but it's just that some of the scenarios just encourage bland gameplay due to a combination of like loading times, encounter design, etc.
Also, action RPG-ing brings up a pretty good question: how exactly do you reconcile stat management and balance?
(where the game will always be compelling and you won't find yourself in a situation where you bulldog an encounter via level ups)
I don't actually know the answer :v
Exentryk
Member
One important point to note is that not everyone is looking for challenge. Some people want to feel overpowered in RPGs, and the mechanics need to be able to facilitate that. The mechanics also need to be able to facilitate people seeking challenge (self imposing restrictions allow this stuff in RPGs like lv 1 runs, no abilities, etc.)
So, have the flexibility and variety for players to do what they want, and that's probably the better design.
I'm starting to think action and RPGs aren't a very good genre mix. Either the action completely overpowers the RPG elements making them completely moot, or the RPG elements trivialize the action elements. And I guess Automata falls into the latter?
Then again, my experience in action RPGs is shallow so I don't think I'm even qualified to pass judgment.
Debating getting this (on PC, but that's kinda irrelevant, I suppose). But, question:
If hated Nioh with a fiery passion - partly due to predictable story, partly due to bland level design and encounters - will I also hate this? I will say that Nier looks wayyyyy better to me (I prefer generic SF setting to generic Japan setting), but is the gameplay loop much the same? Reading the comments, it seems about as RPG-ish as Nioh. But then again, I absolutely adore Bloodborne, and that's RPG-lite.
Cheers.
If hated Nioh with a fiery passion - partly due to predictable story, partly due to bland level design and encounters - will I also hate this? I will say that Nier looks wayyyyy better to me (I prefer generic SF setting to generic Japan setting), but is the gameplay loop much the same? Reading the comments, it seems about as RPG-ish as Nioh. But then again, I absolutely adore Bloodborne, and that's RPG-lite.
Cheers.
To be honest, I generally think RNG is a cancer mechanic and that we should move away from it with respect to game design (still gonna play them JRPGs tho lol), but how does one still make stat management viable when you can skillfully weave around enemies and stuff lol
(or how do we make action parts interesting with respect to the RPGing without resorting to having you bash something 10 levels higher than you for like 15 minutes?)
I honestly think no one has figured this out yet, but maybe I haven't played enough games.
Debating getting this (on PC, but that's kinda irrelevant, I suppose). But, question:
If hated Nioh with a fiery passion - partly due to predictable story, partly due to bland level design and encounters, will I also hate this? I will say that Nier looks wayyyyy better to me (I prefer generic SF setting to generic Japan setting), but is the gameplay loop much the same? Reading the comments, it seems about as RPG-ish as Nioh. But then again, I absolutely adore Bloodborne, and that's RPG-lite.
Cheers.
Not a fan of Nioh either, and I also adore the Souls games, and Nier is a masterpiece to me. Still didn't play Automata, but the impressions from most fans seems to be "at least as good as the first", with many saying it's Yoko Taro's best game yet.
I've seen its level design compared to Dark Souls 1 a few times, so that's pretty exciting.
Nier is way more story-driven and based on exploration, talking to NPCs, cutscenes that actually make sense and are tied well to the gameplay segments, and this sort of thing.
Awful Falafel
Banned
There's lots of systems that can help balance being overpowered and giving a satisfying challenge. A risk reward system like TWEWY or Transistor where you level down or apply handicaps to gain more xp or something is a great fix. Dynamic checkpoints like They Bleed Pixels would also work. You would have to earn checkpoints by getting enough kills then be able to plant your checkpoint anywhere but of course you'd have to build up to your next checkpoint again. Seems like a good compromise between free autosaving and making dying feel like a real penalty.
Nightengale
Member
Mechanically the game is pretty fun & the encounter design does compel you to try different tricks along the way, but I would not put the encounter loop at the same level as Souls game.
Fundamentally at all levels, this game is about the mastery of combos, dodges and the ranged combat for stylish action. The depth of this game allows you to achieve a lot of cool moves, but it's not any sort of encounters where you'll find yourself tactically challenged.
The fundamentals & objectives are pretty different.
Fundamentally at all levels, this game is about the mastery of combos, dodges and the ranged combat for stylish action. The depth of this game allows you to achieve a lot of cool moves, but it's not any sort of encounters where you'll find yourself tactically challenged.
The fundamentals & objectives are pretty different.
Sumio Mondo
Member
Physical copy with Emil T-shirt (which fits perfectly and looks great) finally arrived, seemed like Amazon UK were having stock issues with the T-shirt edition. Glad I got this edition over the Black Box Edition which was ridiculously overpriced, especially since I'm getting the full soundtrack and Art book separately anyway.
This PS4 update is taking forever, my god (said 44 hours before, now it's taking 2 hours).
This PS4 update is taking forever, my god (said 44 hours before, now it's taking 2 hours).
... Zuh? No way. The level design is passable, and that's it imo. There's literally nothing interesting about it.
Napalm_Frank
Member
Is
sidequest bugged cause I swear to god there is nothing at these locations?
Yorha betrayers