NieR: Automata Spoiler Thread
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OniBarubary
Banned
That's like...meta life gaming
My game crashed at exactly the same point...I had the greatest possible timing for a crash
This is on Ending E
I thought it was intentional at first
ShadowSoldier89
Member
"personal data deletion request denied" still nearly brings a happy tear to my eye when I read it
Random aside from having not played Nier but trying to draw a parallel anyway. Both games have a project in progress, Project YoRHa, and Project Gestalt. Both end up failing in the end. Gestalt due to Nier killing Nier, and YoRHa due to the pods interference. However the outcomes of the projects failing are nearly opposite. Nier dooms humanity, but the Pods save a few androids.
Random aside from having not played Nier but trying to draw a parallel anyway. Both games have a project in progress, Project YoRHa, and Project Gestalt. Both end up failing in the end. Gestalt due to Nier killing Nier, and YoRHa due to the pods interference. However the outcomes of the projects failing are nearly opposite. Nier dooms humanity, but the Pods save a few androids.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
That's how they were programmed. Same as A2, after being betrayed by Yorha, she still tries her best to save humanity, what little there is, on the moon.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
oh the main character conversation that keeps popping up. I really dont think we could call any one of them the main character. All 3 of the playable characters are main characters.
Like this would be like me trying to say who the main character in GTA5 was
I wouldve liked A2 to get more playtime and 9S a bit less, but I dont think the additional playtime makes him any more of the main character
Like this would be like me trying to say who the main character in GTA5 was
I wouldve liked A2 to get more playtime and 9S a bit less, but I dont think the additional playtime makes him any more of the main character
What?
Dreams-Visions
Member
Finally got around to this. Very nice analysis.
I was surprised as when googling many of the character's names to find they were all related to various philosophers and thinkers. This piece explained why that was the case quite well along with the developers style and their own philosophy (this was my first game in this franchise).
I suspect I'll enjoy the next time through starting from scratch just as much, as I'll be more inclined to take my time and reflect a bit more on some of the npc dialogue.
oh. well shit. so the aliens built the machines and stuck the cores in them? or was that H2's doing?
Dreams-Visions
Member
Sorry, I'm gonna need a flow chart for this shit. I don't know anything about the original Nier.
Anything like that out there?
Where are you getting this from? Cause I don't remember anything like that.
The terminals are just the entire network itself visualised. Unless this is from the stage play?
Dreams-Visions
Member
Yes, this is in the final note from her analysis work or whatever after finishing E.
I also want to make sure: the aliens DID create the cores, right?
cm osi
Member
any pic of that? i think i missed it
Oh, yeah, rereading it I see why I forgot.
It's not that the ai was based on Nier, but the ai already existed, and used the gestalt project stuff to form its understanding of humans.
The way you phrased that made it sound like the aliens based the ai on Nier. Which wouldn't surprise me since they based the machines bodies on Emil.
Nier fucks everything up again! From beyond the grave this time! Or arguably from outside of reality depending?
It's not that the ai was based on Nier, but the ai already existed, and used the gestalt project stuff to form its understanding of humans.
The way you phrased that made it sound like the aliens based the ai on Nier. Which wouldn't surprise me since they based the machines bodies on Emil.
Nier fucks everything up again! From beyond the grave this time! Or arguably from outside of reality depending?
Finished the E ending yesterday and slept on it.
The credits fight didn't move me as much as others here, but I'll admit that when I was joined by others and the chorus began I was super excited; I'm glad I sucked at the fight in my first tries, otherwise I wouldn't have seen that moment.
Just imagining that machines and androids have been hurting each other without end for 6 millennia...
The credits fight didn't move me as much as others here, but I'll admit that when I was joined by others and the chorus began I was super excited; I'm glad I sucked at the fight in my first tries, otherwise I wouldn't have seen that moment.
Just imagining that machines and androids have been hurting each other without end for 6 millennia...
Dreams-Visions
Member
Still trying to put some of this together. let me know if this sounds right:
Aliens invaded earth while humanity was already on the ropes due to the illnesses or whatever from Nier. Mankind's best defense was Emil (who was an advanced combat robot?). Emil created copies of himself to form a larger front line of Emils to help fight against the aliens and war ensues for thousands of years (?). Aliens at some point turned to using machines to do their fighting for them and they based the design on Emil (hence most of the robot enemies having sphere heads). They implanted cores in them which gave them a measure of independence and ability to learn and adapt (?)
Later on the machine network the aliens created evolved and killed their creators. In the process of the machines learning about the world around them, they encountered the databases on humans including project gestalt and other stuff, which informed their evolutionary process. This resulted in the creation of the conceptual red girls, H2. They intended to destroy the remains of humanity on the moon but decided against doing so because....I can't remember.
Is this sort of right? Please correct.
Also, what exactly was on the moon? Just gene data? "Replicants"? I'm not clear what those are?
Halp.
https://youtu.be/JvgBjwVt0eE?t=874
That's how I understand it, except humanity of all types were long gone by the time aliens even arrived. All that was left is Emil and the androids. He fought his war out of respect for the friends he lost saving it once upon a time. All that is left of humanity is some genome data stored on the moon.
Basically. Only things you're missing is OG Nier stuff (which is still explained in Automata through intel).
-Humans were extinct like a thousand years before aliens invaded. Emil was created as a weapon to fight something else called "The Legion" who are long gone before the first Nier even starts but due to being Emil he still existed and fought the aliens by himself.
-Stuff on the moon is probably replicant data, so it's data to create a weird clone body of a human that isn't supposed to be sentient but is.
-The machines don't blow up the server because they realise it'll just continue the loop, and they feel ready to break away from it.
Dreams-Visions
Member
got it. thanks all, really. lots of moving parts here. would have actually been nice to have background from Nier presented to the player through some short videos along the way so that some of these holes can be fleshed out for those experiencing the series for the first time.
random questions:
- are the androids also replicants? if not, what's the difference between an android and a replicant? are replicants organic clones?
- what exactly are machine cores? was there a deeper significance between the fact that their cores are similar in design to black boxes significant? Was one actually derived from the other?
- who created the androids if humanity had been dead for centuries? who created the new YoRHa models for the "cycle"?
YoRHa No.2 Type B
Banned
Someone got a list of which sidequests are shared, which are exclusive to 9S, A2 and 2B?
This is great, thanks. I picked up on a lot of this either consciously or subconsciously, but it's always nice to go through it piece by piece like this if only to put on display just how much thought was put into the plot, character designs, and writing.
Answers in bold
-Yep. Replicants are organic clones. They have some similarities to androids in that they were non-sentient beings that eventually gained sentience, but they aren't mechanical and will age and die naturally.
-Machine cores are literally the cores of a machine. They are what makes that machine alive. Think of it like the brain, I guess. Black boxes use machine core tech because the androids thought it unethical to use their own ai tech in robots designed to be killed off.
-Humanity created the androids whilst still alive all the way back in the early 2000's. Popola and Devola, for example, have been around that long. Although I would have to assume that most of the androids we see on the game were likely created more recently by other androids in order to bolster their ranks for the war.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
the whole YoRHa machine core thing is up there with the Popola and Devola guilt reveal. Goddamn, distancing yourselves from all these people so you dont have to feel bad about slaughtering all of them.
RubberLuffy
Banned
My sweet boy Emil wasn't a robot. He was a human kid from the 21st century who was experimented on along with his sister, to create powerful magical human weapons. Some fucked up stuff happens and eventually he becomes the countless Heads you see in Automata. He's the oldest living thing in the NieR world and his life has sucked for almost 10k years.
I could see how they can think that since Emil in automata has fusion reactors (and can destory earth by detonating them)... and you can hack him. I guess the clones are not organic in the least.
So what's up with Devola and Popola in this game.
Apparently there is some sort of android Government, but this government didn't think of placing more than two androids in the Shadowlord's area? I always thought Devola and Popola and the androids were left on their own during Nier 1. I mean, it makes sense that humanity would create a lot of androids, but uh? Nier 1 takes place during like 5 years, shades were going crazy all over the place, the Shadowlord wasn't cooperating, no one bothered to check Nier 1's area?
Then the android government decided to take ALL the Devola and Popola models and reprogrammed them to 1) Feel constant guilt 2) Think all the Devola and Popola models got scraped, but it actually isn't true?
They also told everyone to blame Devola and Popola, but they also later told everyone humans are still alive, but they just retreated on the moon. I guess they still "responsible" for the failure of project Gestal, in their eyes.
Who the heck run this government?
Apparently there is some sort of android Government, but this government didn't think of placing more than two androids in the Shadowlord's area? I always thought Devola and Popola and the androids were left on their own during Nier 1. I mean, it makes sense that humanity would create a lot of androids, but uh? Nier 1 takes place during like 5 years, shades were going crazy all over the place, the Shadowlord wasn't cooperating, no one bothered to check Nier 1's area?
Then the android government decided to take ALL the Devola and Popola models and reprogrammed them to 1) Feel constant guilt 2) Think all the Devola and Popola models got scraped, but it actually isn't true?
They also told everyone to blame Devola and Popola, but they also later told everyone humans are still alive, but they just retreated on the moon. I guess they still "responsible" for the failure of project Gestal, in their eyes.
Who the heck run this government?
RubberLuffy
Banned
President Yoko Taro
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Replicants are organic, they grow, get old, sick, and die just like normal humans. They cannot reproduce so as to maintain the 1:1 ratio with Gestalts. They were intended as "empty vessels" however them gaining sapience and the (mistaken) belief that they were real humans was a critical flaw in the Gestalt program.
Androids on the other hand are mechanical, they never age and are aware of their origin and function. The Devola and Popola models were intended to monitor and maintain replicant communities until the time came for the Gestalts to reclaim their lives in a WCS/legion free world.
Machine cores are the origin of machine-lifeform sapience, and are alien technology. Originally intended as an adaptive augmentation to make better fighters against the replicant/android resistance, evolution resulted in them turning on and destroying their alien masters.
Like the Androids though, the machine's original purpose to destroy their enemy has remained a constant over the centuries.
YoRHa and all later generation androids were created by other androids following the extinction of their human creators many years previously. Like the machines they are trapped in an unending cycle of creation and destruction in order to evolve stronger generations of fighters, and perpetuate the war in absence of any purpose, any destiny, of their own design.
The significance of YoRHa black-boxes being based on the alien machine-core technology is two-fold. Firstly its an indication of how close the two sides have become, and secondly its an indication that they may finally have the means to evolve on their own, and maybe one day forge their own destiny.
OniBarubary
Banned
Devola and Popola were created by the humans. When everything failed and went to shit because they couldn't protect the Shadowlord it basically condemned them to go extinct. So they repurposed all the rest of the Devola and Popola models left to always feel guilt and be blamed for the state of the world. Carrying on the sins of their sisters. It ties directly into the continuation of shitty cycles and awful behavior due to no logical or realistic reason but simply because people held those prejudices or anger against them (much like discrimination or racism) and they refuse to change or do anything about it. Why does everybody treat them like shit because of something one set of their models did? I dunno, why do people treat a family like shit if their son was a murderer. Why do people become racist against black people because of the perceived actions of one black person? Why don't they change when the evidence and everything in their face is proof that what they believe or held onto is silly or illogical?
Almost nothing in this game is simply what it is at face value. Almost everything is working towards the greater point of the themes of the game.
But even then, it's not unrealistic. People punish others for shit they never did all the time, for generations even. Your dad ran away in our holy war? Strip his family of nobility and let them be peasants for the rest of their lineage even though their sons and daughters did nothing to earn this scorn until they all die out.
The androids invented the moon lie for lots of reasons people better than I have said; to continue the cycle and give themselves meaning because without a "god" they became despondent simply because they were programmed to.
Almost nothing in this game is simply what it is at face value. Almost everything is working towards the greater point of the themes of the game.
But even then, it's not unrealistic. People punish others for shit they never did all the time, for generations even. Your dad ran away in our holy war? Strip his family of nobility and let them be peasants for the rest of their lineage even though their sons and daughters did nothing to earn this scorn until they all die out.
The androids invented the moon lie for lots of reasons people better than I have said; to continue the cycle and give themselves meaning because without a "god" they became despondent simply because they were programmed to.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
I like how this entire order makes sense with how adam found the aliens boring and 1 note. Of course thats the best instructions those lame aliens could come up with
OniBarubary
Banned
Well, we know that the aliens are basically just penises so it makes sense they'd be one track and narrowly focused.
On smashing Earth.
On smashing Earth.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Thanks for the responses!
Sorry, another question: I see in reading various wiki entries that the last of the Gestalts died some 800 years after the events of the original Nier. Is there any idea of the lifespan of Gestalts? How did any hold on so long after the
was defeated if he was the only thing keeping them all from falling into Relapse? For what was supposed to be a temporary displacement, they sure seemed to last a long fucking time. Is that because they were "asleep" like some sort of stasis? Based on the Wikis, I had assumed they all began to fall into Relapse immediately after his death, but maybe not? I'm trying to get a better understanding of this world. It's really hard for me to follow.
I assume that Replicants have a normal human lifespan? Also, is it fair to simply call Replicants humans, especially given their sentience? Or is that an underlying theme of the game itself (what is it to be human)? I guess I'm in part looking to confirm that the end of humanity was defined by the death of the final Replicant, rather than the final normal human.
edit: clarifying questions further.
Sorry, another question: I see in reading various wiki entries that the last of the Gestalts died some 800 years after the events of the original Nier. Is there any idea of the lifespan of Gestalts? How did any hold on so long after the
Shadowlord
I assume that Replicants have a normal human lifespan? Also, is it fair to simply call Replicants humans, especially given their sentience? Or is that an underlying theme of the game itself (what is it to be human)? I guess I'm in part looking to confirm that the end of humanity was defined by the death of the final Replicant, rather than the final normal human.
edit: clarifying questions further.
Tribes of Trusty
Member
I let the game sink in a while since yesterday, and I came to a conclusion : I was a little disappointed by the game because I was expecting some more NieR and not something new.
I mean, as a stand-alone title, the game is stellar, but I kept playing it expecting some grandiose revelations about NieR. I think YT deliberately put a lot of things in the game as if mocking the kind of player I was.
I mean :
- Oh hey it's Emil ! A soon as you meet him he flees at sonic speed. Next time you see him, he's just a merchant. Oh you want to see more of him ? Too bad he's not even the original Emil, and he's miserable, and you have to upgrade ALL of the weapons before seeing anything of significance.
- Oh hey it's Devola and Popola ! Except they're nothing like NieR, and live through hell. Hope you're glad to see them again.
- what there's a council of humanity ? That means that maybe the Gestalt project or something else came through !! Can't wait to see how they did it after NieR !
- Well here's a medical report about Yonah if you want...where there's litteraly nothing of importance.
So, well, if I could give one piece of warning to people who loved NieR and want to play NieR Automata : it's not a sequel. It's its own game which happens to share some things with its prequel. NieR Automata is to NieR what NieR was to Drakengard and not what Drakengard 2 was to Drakengard.
I mean, as a stand-alone title, the game is stellar, but I kept playing it expecting some grandiose revelations about NieR. I think YT deliberately put a lot of things in the game as if mocking the kind of player I was.
I mean :
- Oh hey it's Emil ! A soon as you meet him he flees at sonic speed. Next time you see him, he's just a merchant. Oh you want to see more of him ? Too bad he's not even the original Emil, and he's miserable, and you have to upgrade ALL of the weapons before seeing anything of significance.
- Oh hey it's Devola and Popola ! Except they're nothing like NieR, and live through hell. Hope you're glad to see them again.
- what there's a council of humanity ? That means that maybe the Gestalt project or something else came through !! Can't wait to see how they did it after NieR !
HA HA FUCK YOU
So, well, if I could give one piece of warning to people who loved NieR and want to play NieR Automata : it's not a sequel. It's its own game which happens to share some things with its prequel. NieR Automata is to NieR what NieR was to Drakengard and not what Drakengard 2 was to Drakengard.
OniBarubary
Banned
That's actually a bit of a valid point. A lot of things in the game really do dump on you for playing the original Nier. You're like "I love the game, it'd be nice to see after everything horrible that there was some happiness" and Yoko's like "SADNESS IS YOUR NEW EMOTION NOW"
Thanks for the responses!
Sorry, another question: I see in reading various wiki entries that the last of the Gestalts died some 800 years after the events of the original Nier. Is there any idea of the lifespan of Gestalts? How did any hold on so long after thewas defeated if he was the only thing keeping them all from falling into Relapse? For what was supposed to be a temporary displacement, they sure seemed to last a long fucking time. Is that because they were "asleep" like some sort of stasis? Based on the Wikis, I had assumed they all began to fall into Relapse immediately after his death, but maybe not? I'm trying to get a better understanding of this world. It's really hard for me to follow.Shadowlord
I assume that Replicants have a normal human lifespan? Also, is it fair to simply call Replicants humans, especially given their sentience? Or is that an underlying theme of the game itself (what is it to be human)? I guess I'm in part looking to confirm that the end of humanity was defined by the death of the final Replicant, rather than the final normal human.
edit: clarifying questions further.
To add to this, I'd like to know what it means exactly for a Gestalt to "relapse."
i originally thought the same about the first 2, but route C and emil's sidequest / superboss really changed that entirely. It ended up feeling like that because they "weren't the same" that they ended up fitting the themes more.
like, initially i thought "why did they make one of the most tragic characters from Nier 1 a joke?". then i saw everything relating to the shack and emil's determination... nope, still one of the most tragic characters (mostly in how it deals w/ his existential crisis completely differently.)
your third point is pretty freakin Nier-like though, so i dont get your point there
Relapsed Gestalts become feral and lose all sense of self.
Relapsed Relicants gain the black scrawl and die.
I'm more surprised at the amount of callbacks to the Cult of the Watchers from Drakengard 1, from red eyes to little girls becoming huge and having deep voices, to the Copied City and the Tower being made of a material similar to the Giant, and Eve having their symbol on his chest.
Yea I really felt bad about that. Since Day 1, I'm pretty sure we all expected Pascal the pacifist to get his beliefs shitted on at some point. As soon as he said he could handle it, and "I'll kill you!", I was like "Uh oh..."
It didn't go how I thought it would though. I thought he'd go berserk, not be punished for teaching the children what fear was...
Kind of weird to give that advice in the spoiler thread lol
ikr. what was all that about. unlike the Accord easter egg, this feels super deliberate
Thanks for the responses!
Sorry, another question: I see in reading various wiki entries that the last of the Gestalts died some 800 years after the events of the original Nier. Is there any idea of the lifespan of Gestalts? How did any hold on so long after thewas defeated if he was the only thing keeping them all from falling into Relapse? For what was supposed to be a temporary displacement, they sure seemed to last a long fucking time. Is that because they were "asleep" like some sort of stasis? Based on the Wikis, I had assumed they all began to fall into Relapse immediately after his death, but maybe not? I'm trying to get a better understanding of this world. It's really hard for me to follow.Shadowlord
I assume that Replicants have a normal human lifespan? Also, is it fair to simply call Replicants humans, especially given their sentience? Or is that an underlying theme of the game itself (what is it to be human)? I guess I'm in part looking to confirm that the end of humanity was defined by the death of the final Replicant, rather than the final normal human.
edit: clarifying questions further.
It's possible some Gestalts voluntary reunited with their Shades, we saw that already happening in Nier in the Aerie incident. So humans may have gone on for a while before they started dying off.
That, or someone messed up the timeline.
OniBarubary
Banned
I just enjoy that Taro's like:
"Hey! It's everybody's favorite skelebro Emil! You had so many fun journeys with him, remember!
...
Yeah, it's not the same one, it's just one of his copies desperately trying to retain memories of the original body"
"Hey! It's everybody's favorite twins, Devola and Popola! Remember all the fun times you had (before killing them)?!
...
They're not the same ones, but due to humanity being assholes they are made to feel guilty for the original's sins and wander the earth constantly trying to make up for something that wasn't their fault until they die."
"Hey! It's everybody's favorite skelebro Emil! You had so many fun journeys with him, remember!
...
Yeah, it's not the same one, it's just one of his copies desperately trying to retain memories of the original body"
"Hey! It's everybody's favorite twins, Devola and Popola! Remember all the fun times you had (before killing them)?!
...
They're not the same ones, but due to humanity being assholes they are made to feel guilty for the original's sins and wander the earth constantly trying to make up for something that wasn't their fault until they die."
ShadowSoldier89
Member
I didnt play Nier 1, but from my limited understanding I thought that the death of the shadowlord guaranteed all gestalt's would relapse, however there was no timeframe for it to happen.
I feel slightly bad for those who know absolutely nothing about the first game, Devola and Popola is that one thing that you could tell people may not resonate as strongly with their backstory if they're unaware of their actions from the first game.
Propaganda to keep the androids in-line and tangled around a unifying belief.
Thanks for the responses!
Sorry, another question: I see in reading various wiki entries that the last of the Gestalts died some 800 years after the events of the original Nier. Is there any idea of the lifespan of Gestalts? How did any hold on so long after thewas defeated if he was the only thing keeping them all from falling into Relapse? For what was supposed to be a temporary displacement, they sure seemed to last a long fucking time. Is that because they were "asleep" like some sort of stasis? Based on the Wikis, I had assumed they all began to fall into Relapse immediately after his death, but maybe not? I'm trying to get a better understanding of this world. It's really hard for me to follow.Shadowlord
I assume that Replicants have a normal human lifespan? Also, is it fair to simply call Replicants humans, especially given their sentience? Or is that an underlying theme of the game itself (what is it to be human)? I guess I'm in part looking to confirm that the end of humanity was defined by the death of the final Replicant, rather than the final normal human.
edit: clarifying questions further.
I don't think they have a normal human lifespan, as the first ones were created 1300 years before the game even started, tho they can definitely die and get "recycled" by the regional Devola and Popopla squad if that happens.
You can't really call replicants humans because they do not posess over a lot of biological functions humans do (like reproductive organs) nor do they posess a soul (at least not until they've been taken over by a Gestalt i.e. the soul of a true human)
Tho you can say that they formed their own culture and civilization during their time without resorting to simple imitational behavior like Biomachines and Androids did in Automata.
The game itself also treats them as normal human beings (I mean, we don't even knew about them being Replicants until the chronological very end of the story) and them and the gestalts being the same people with the same goals, is also the entire point of the story.
So i'd say it's fair to say mankind ended when the last replicant did, but you can really make a case for both viewpoints