http://www.forbes.com/business/manufacturing/feeds/ap/2004/12/09/ap1701142.html
zzzzzzzzzzzz
People are not drifting away from games, they are drifiting away from gamecube game. It has nothing to do with complexity either.
Nintendo President Plays Down Sony Handset
- Thread starter Kon Tiki
- Start date
http://www.forbes.com/business/manufacturing/feeds/ap/2004/12/09/ap1701142.html
zzzzzzzzzzzz
People are not drifting away from games, they are drifiting away from gamecube game. It has nothing to do with complexity either.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Society said:
Exactly. If he's so sure about what he's saying, why not explain why Sony gains (and in the process, creates) marketshare while Ninty loses it?
radioheadrule83
Banned
There's a market for simple games though, and cellphones have been capitalising on it for ages, especially in Japan. Sony themselves still sell simpler PSone hardware and software due to this reality. Simple interfaces don't imply shallow gameplay - these things aren't mutually exclusive. It's not like they've said here that PSP is crap and won't sell. They know it will... they're just saying DS is targeting new gamers that don't know **** about 11 button gamepads. Which it is surely.
The next Gameboy will be Nintendo's true response, and I really don't think DS is it. And we'll see who's downplaying who at that time.
The next Gameboy will be Nintendo's true response, and I really don't think DS is it. And we'll see who's downplaying who at that time.
MightyHedgehog
Member
They should also create cell-phone games...why not? Does Nintendo have to control every platform their games appear on?
Oni Link 666
Member
How is Sony trying to attract hardcore gamers with the PSP more than Nintendo is with the DS? If anything, I would think it's the other way around.
MightyHedgehog
Member
DarienA said:
Exactly. Nintendo's current platforms don't really cater to the broad spectrum that they used to (NES, SNES). And it's because Nintendo doesn't have the favor of the majority of third parties out there to make that shit. That's why gamers are drifitng away from games...or, more accurately, Nintendo's consoles...which have less to offer them.
Oni Link 666 said:
Define hardcore.
Late Stage Marxist
Member
Novice gamers unite!
open_mouth_
insert_foot_
If Nintendo comes out with a GBA 2 within the next few years, wouldn't that be canabalyzing their current DS and GBA offerings??? Won't people "get mad" at Nintendo like they will "get mad" at Microsoft for releasing the next iteration too early????
Late Stage Marxist
Member
NDS has always been "the third pillar".
Tritroid
Member
If Nintendo ever wants to actually start to move towards regaining some of the market share they lost, then they are going to have to drop this 'games are too complex' philosophy.
Frankly I'd like to know what kind of market researchers they have that are feeding them this bullshit. Most gamers want huge, epic games, not a collaboration of nothing but mini-games (Wario Ware being the only indication that this type of strategy is successful). How many of us cringe when we hear that a highly anticipated game is under 20 hours? Or how about when a game that's practically a keystone in complexity, such as Zelda, ends up having 4 or less dungeons? That's not what people want.
Nintendo needs to stop alienating their own fanbase. Yes, they can cater to the beginner players, but they aren't the demographic that's making up most of the sales. Coming out and saying that the DS is designed for the 'novice' gamer isn't a very wise thing to say when you've just launched a new handheld to over 1 million people. That gives DS purchasers the impression that they've just bought an inferior product, and will some of the first in line for DS returns once PSP rolls around.
I'm a huge Nintendo fan, but sometimes I just don't understand the idiotic way they try to spin things.
Frankly I'd like to know what kind of market researchers they have that are feeding them this bullshit. Most gamers want huge, epic games, not a collaboration of nothing but mini-games (Wario Ware being the only indication that this type of strategy is successful). How many of us cringe when we hear that a highly anticipated game is under 20 hours? Or how about when a game that's practically a keystone in complexity, such as Zelda, ends up having 4 or less dungeons? That's not what people want.
Nintendo needs to stop alienating their own fanbase. Yes, they can cater to the beginner players, but they aren't the demographic that's making up most of the sales. Coming out and saying that the DS is designed for the 'novice' gamer isn't a very wise thing to say when you've just launched a new handheld to over 1 million people. That gives DS purchasers the impression that they've just bought an inferior product, and will some of the first in line for DS returns once PSP rolls around.
I'm a huge Nintendo fan, but sometimes I just don't understand the idiotic way they try to spin things.
The Faceless Master
Member
no, because the gameboy upgrade cycle is shorter (every 3 years or so?) and the ds "isnt a gameboy"open_mouth_ said:
JasoNsider
Member
The only crazy people are those in this very thread. Games are too complex, but you will not see it since you are too familiar with them. For god sakes, you're on a forum dubbed "Gaming Age", talking about games day in and out.
Games have become too complex for the non-playing public. Look at it like a comic book series. As gamers, we've been following a comic book series very closely, so a shift in story arc barely has an effect on us. For a new reader, they have to first understand the entire back-log of issues before coming to terms with the new releases. It just doesn't jive any more. I did a study on this recently, and the results should be going up shortly. There is a very real and serious problem with game complexity, and as expected, the hardcore gaming audience is not ready to accept it. All the negative responses in this thread are pretty much par for the course thus far.
Games have become too complex for the non-playing public. Look at it like a comic book series. As gamers, we've been following a comic book series very closely, so a shift in story arc barely has an effect on us. For a new reader, they have to first understand the entire back-log of issues before coming to terms with the new releases. It just doesn't jive any more. I did a study on this recently, and the results should be going up shortly. There is a very real and serious problem with game complexity, and as expected, the hardcore gaming audience is not ready to accept it. All the negative responses in this thread are pretty much par for the course thus far.
radioheadrule83
Banned
I'm not ragging on PlayStation 2, Xbox or PSP here. I don't want to.. and I don't see why defending Nintendo should imply that, but I'm sure it will. Think about it. Gamers can't exactly drift towards Nintendo platforms can they? It's 90% Nintendo at the moment, if not more. Because a powerful brand like PlayStation is entering the fray doesn't necessarily impose some kind of indictment that Nintendo is having a Gamecube syndrome in the handheld department... Gameboy is the PlayStation of this little world.
...even if you were to compare Nintendo's quantatively depreciating hardware sales in the home console arena with what you think will happen here (which is not certain, Nintendo could conceivably dominate), one could argue that Gamecube has suffered purely because of it's fanbase being splintered by competition in the form of Xbox.
Qualatitively speaking, Nintendo has more third party support on Gamecube, better third party games in general, and outside of their own first party software: they are probably seeing better overall sales of software too. They haven't supplied an online plan, let alone sunk $2 million into one, they don't provide media playback or include a HD etc. It's remarkable that Gamecube sells as well as it does if all the mainstream cares about is breadth of titles and superfluous features... I think they must be doing something right. I think it's probably their first party reputation, and the party games like Wario Ware, and Monkey Ball available. The more Eastern influenced cartoon style gaming, as seen on consoles of old. That's what gets them their niche... these people have been playing for years. They probably have Xboxes and Ps2s etc themselves, and Nintendo want to get them to spread the Gamecube word - hence Twin Snakes, Resident Evil etc. Sure it hasn't been perfect... but this Nintendo has turned a corner since N64.
As for this whole simplicity angle... I think it's a good idea. DS is a different product because it is being marketed as something with which you can control games, simply by touching them. The communication software, Pictochat, is emphasised in commercials too. I can't think of games more univerally lauded than the likes of Tetris, Snake II, Puzzle Bobble etc - a lot of which won a second wind on mobile phones. There are enjoyable games that use minimal buttons, and use of directions to do their job -- they're not necessarily shallow or anything. Why not have a platform exclusive to encouraging that kind of gaming? I actually think developers are risking making DS games more complicated than they need to be -- games like the Mario DS minigames, Wario Ware, and Feel the Magic are good examples of easy, accessible fun for anyone. Adding an extra 9 buttons on the touch screen for extra Spidey-moves isn't really helping bring in the new gamers. The gaming interface, for many of us, is fine as it is. We've used it for over a decade, and adapted as it has become more convoluted. But some of us haven't. Some people can't.
...even if you were to compare Nintendo's quantatively depreciating hardware sales in the home console arena with what you think will happen here (which is not certain, Nintendo could conceivably dominate), one could argue that Gamecube has suffered purely because of it's fanbase being splintered by competition in the form of Xbox.
Qualatitively speaking, Nintendo has more third party support on Gamecube, better third party games in general, and outside of their own first party software: they are probably seeing better overall sales of software too. They haven't supplied an online plan, let alone sunk $2 million into one, they don't provide media playback or include a HD etc. It's remarkable that Gamecube sells as well as it does if all the mainstream cares about is breadth of titles and superfluous features... I think they must be doing something right. I think it's probably their first party reputation, and the party games like Wario Ware, and Monkey Ball available. The more Eastern influenced cartoon style gaming, as seen on consoles of old. That's what gets them their niche... these people have been playing for years. They probably have Xboxes and Ps2s etc themselves, and Nintendo want to get them to spread the Gamecube word - hence Twin Snakes, Resident Evil etc. Sure it hasn't been perfect... but this Nintendo has turned a corner since N64.
As for this whole simplicity angle... I think it's a good idea. DS is a different product because it is being marketed as something with which you can control games, simply by touching them. The communication software, Pictochat, is emphasised in commercials too. I can't think of games more univerally lauded than the likes of Tetris, Snake II, Puzzle Bobble etc - a lot of which won a second wind on mobile phones. There are enjoyable games that use minimal buttons, and use of directions to do their job -- they're not necessarily shallow or anything. Why not have a platform exclusive to encouraging that kind of gaming? I actually think developers are risking making DS games more complicated than they need to be -- games like the Mario DS minigames, Wario Ware, and Feel the Magic are good examples of easy, accessible fun for anyone. Adding an extra 9 buttons on the touch screen for extra Spidey-moves isn't really helping bring in the new gamers. The gaming interface, for many of us, is fine as it is. We've used it for over a decade, and adapted as it has become more convoluted. But some of us haven't. Some people can't.
The thing is, I don't think people are drifting away from "complex games". More people than ever are playing games and a lot of those people were never interested in complex game mechanics and the like. Iwata's statement makes it sound as if people that previously enjoyed complex games are moving away from them. While this may apply to some individuals, I highly doubt there is some sort of mass exodus underway.
I believe that he is wrong to assume that gamers do not want complexity. There needs to be a balance which fills the need of all gamers. Some of the most successful games on the market right now are certainly not "simple" games. Madden, Grand Theft Auto, Halo 2, Need for Speed Underground, even Half-Life 2 and World of Warcraft (which, despite their platform, is doing very well). These are successful (VERY successful) games, and not one of them could be considered "simple".
Heck, Nintendo's own library of success is hardly made up of "simple" games.
I believe that he is wrong to assume that gamers do not want complexity. There needs to be a balance which fills the need of all gamers. Some of the most successful games on the market right now are certainly not "simple" games. Madden, Grand Theft Auto, Halo 2, Need for Speed Underground, even Half-Life 2 and World of Warcraft (which, despite their platform, is doing very well). These are successful (VERY successful) games, and not one of them could be considered "simple".
Heck, Nintendo's own library of success is hardly made up of "simple" games.
Tritroid
Member
If there's a serious problem with game complexity then why is a console or handheld like PS2 or GBA so mainstream? If the general consumer (aside from we, the hardcore) was actually having problems about game complexity, then you'd see that reflected in how the hardware is received by the market, especially through sales numbers.JasoNsider said:
The comic book comparison doesn't work in this case since they aren't really similar. There isn't a 'backlog' for newcomers to tread through before engaging in the actual game they've purchased. Just because the gameplay itself is slightly challenging at times (God forbid) and the design is far from simplistic, it isn't a good enough reason to think that complexity is a serious issue. If anything, I would think a casual would be impressed and won over by how deep and engrossing a game is, and then how long it would actually take him to complete it.
So as far as this whole complexity issue goes, I'm really seeing no proof that it's actually something that needs to be addressed.
JasoNsider
Member
dark10x said:
None of those games are truly simple. You're right, and even Nintendo knows it.
How many people watch movies? How many people listen to music or watch TV? There is a reason why those forms of entertainment are so wide-spread. For one, it's passive. That much we all know. More importantly though, they are simple to understand. If people have to interface with cars and computers all day, what makes you think Jane soccer mom is going to flip through a game instruction book and find out how to use those 20 buttons and dual analog sticks? This is on top of in-game complexity, with games pushing more and more "features" to boast.
The key here is balance. Too much of anything is unhealthy. We need a balance of simple games and complex games in this industry if we ever wish to have people booting up consoles instead of hitting up the theater or watching Friends.
radioheadrule83
Banned
dark10x said:
I totally agree. There needs to be a balance. There needs to be simple games anyone can play if we want to pull in new gamers, but there have to be kinds of games that are challenging to learn for older or more experienced gamers.
The thing is - current consoles don't encourage new types of games, or simple types of games. Nintendo DS can. Used rightly, it proposes simple interfaces for compelling content. I'm all for it, and hope Nintendo can prove their point.
tahrikmili
Member
I haven't felt attracted to ANY handheld since my Game Gear. And the games I enjoyed on my game gear had nothing to do with the games I enjoyed on computers - they were much more simple, but they were very involving. To me, a handheld is something to spend time with and have simple fun when you have nothing better to do - i.e. taking a crap, plane flight, etc. If I wanted to play Halo or something I wouldn't play it on a handheld.. So in that regard, Nintendo isn't too far off, I would think. For the same reason, I'd never shell out money for a PSP..
Forgotten Ancient
Banned
If the DS is a true "third pillar", what will the next Gameboy be?
Obviously it won't be a handheld with a single screen, impressive graphics, and beautiful audio. The consumer doesn't want that!
...It seems like Nintendo is shrugging off the competition for doing things that I would hope the next Gameboy would do.
Obviously it won't be a handheld with a single screen, impressive graphics, and beautiful audio. The consumer doesn't want that!
...It seems like Nintendo is shrugging off the competition for doing things that I would hope the next Gameboy would do.
Stop crying and try to accept that
-the video game market is not as widespread as you think.
- half of the population (the women, need I precise ?) does not care
-the market for simple interface driven games is even bigger and will be dominated by mobile phone companies if video games manufacturers do not react fast
-the video game market is not as widespread as you think.
- half of the population (the women, need I precise ?) does not care
-the market for simple interface driven games is even bigger and will be dominated by mobile phone companies if video games manufacturers do not react fast
I think a lot of people are missing the point.
Nintendo games are simple as they are, on GC and GBA. They are simple enough for everyone to enjoy, but the gaming market is not the same as it used to be - it's shrunk considerably in Japan. Even though PlayStation sales have passed what Famicom achieved, software sales have been decreasing consistently for the past 5 years or more.
Nintendo is trying to get non-gamers back into games, like they were in the Famicom and PlayStation eras. They are luring them with a simple interface that is easy to pick up and play, while at the same time they are pushing developers to think of new ideas for the dual screen. It is a two-pronged attempt to rejuvenate the industry. Sure they're doing it for the money, but it could have a positive effect for everyone in the market, not just Nintendo.
Nintendo games are simple as they are, on GC and GBA. They are simple enough for everyone to enjoy, but the gaming market is not the same as it used to be - it's shrunk considerably in Japan. Even though PlayStation sales have passed what Famicom achieved, software sales have been decreasing consistently for the past 5 years or more.
Nintendo is trying to get non-gamers back into games, like they were in the Famicom and PlayStation eras. They are luring them with a simple interface that is easy to pick up and play, while at the same time they are pushing developers to think of new ideas for the dual screen. It is a two-pronged attempt to rejuvenate the industry. Sure they're doing it for the money, but it could have a positive effect for everyone in the market, not just Nintendo.
I don't think anyone will argue that Videogames is still a niche market when compared to some other forms of entertainment like listening to music or watching TV. Trying to make videogames as excessible as turning on your radio or TV I think is the challenge that Nintendo is attempting to undertake. Theoretically this should increase market share for the vast amount of human beings who find games too unappealing or troublesome to bother with. When Iwata stated that the market is shrinking I'm sure he might of been immediately referring too the declining Japanese market and not the market as a whole.
But who knows maybe he did mean the market as a whole and he is delusional. But one thing is certain that Nintendo's handheld buisness should not be associated in any way with their home console buisness. They are two seperate entities with two seperate goals one succeeding and one failing. If Nintendo can make their home console as accessible as potentially the DS can be next generation then we might see a change in the right direction of where they are trying to go. I can understand trying to go for the Billions of consumers who do not touch videogames But alienating gamers who appreciate games in a matured state would also be a bad idea.
But who knows maybe he did mean the market as a whole and he is delusional. But one thing is certain that Nintendo's handheld buisness should not be associated in any way with their home console buisness. They are two seperate entities with two seperate goals one succeeding and one failing. If Nintendo can make their home console as accessible as potentially the DS can be next generation then we might see a change in the right direction of where they are trying to go. I can understand trying to go for the Billions of consumers who do not touch videogames But alienating gamers who appreciate games in a matured state would also be a bad idea.
JasoNsider
Member
Tritroid said:
You and I are going to have a serious problem discussing this issue if you think PS2 and GBA are mainstream. Especially with the PS2. Go ask a 35 year old female co-worker if she has played Prince of Persia: Warrior Within yet. She'll give you some really funny looks.
Plus, there really is a back-log of information to soak in for the newcomers. Try to sit someone down with Zelda and teach them about lock-on targetting. "Lock on who?" You and I have a hard time understanding that people are finding this all too complex for them, but it's the truth. There is a reason why many people just play games like minesweeper, Tetris, or those small Yahoo games.
If this industry wants to break out of the "for teenage boys" mold, it will need to actually provide viable options for people of all ages and background.
open_mouth_
insert_foot_
The Faceless Master said:no, because the gameboy upgrade cycle is shorter (every 3 years or so?) and the ds "isnt a gameboy"
How is it shorter though?? Wasn't the original gameboy out for like 10 years+ or so? Color gameboy wasn't exactly the next iteration, imo, GBA was. I dunno, it seems to me like Nintendo might be alienating the handheld consumer a bit and splitting their developer base (1st and 3rd party) in the handheld realm, thus weakening its stand against a competitor like the PSP....
On the other hand, if the DS continues its strong sales and the GBA doesn't drop off that much, then this third-pillar business Nintendo is trying might just have been an ingenious idea... I think, however, that GBA sales will drop somewhat drastically over time, like most hardware does when its successor is released.
wazoo said:
I wonder if it's to late. It seems like online parlor games and cell phone software are already on their way to surpassing the traditional games industry.
I know people are tired of Nintendo saying the same thing, but I think they have really trying to approach a real problem and are not just trying to differentiate themselves in an industry where it's harder for them to compete on the technology. Hardcore games are the base support of the industry, but that doesn't mean that all efforts should be focused on that group--I think some people overestimate how easy it is for people to pick up modern games. Just because 2-3 million people bought Halo 2 or GTA, that doesn't mean that the huge base of consumer in that number are made up of a broad base of casuals.
seismologist
Banned
Redbeard said:
I think they're going for the super intuitive interface like on the NES. The button filled gadget look of the PSP seems intimidating enough as it is.
Like NES was the "Family Computer" The DS is almost like a "Family PDA" That's how I see it.
Redbeard said:
I think you fail to grasp the concept of what it means to break into a market that previous game machines already failed to do. Heres a perfect example of the difference of simplicity between what can be a DS game and the ones you mentioned. Imagine the difference between learning an analog stick, remembering face buttons related to game functions (Accelerate, Brake, Powerslide) and navigating a 3D world to something like the slingshot game in M64DS where all you have to do is pull the slingshot down with your finger and fire at targets. Which do you think would be more inviting to a non-gamer?
Puzzle games are arguable easier but they still require a degree of game familiararity to play effeciently and have fun doing so. Making the game mechanics and control simplified would have more potential of inviting consumers who never looked at a game before as potential entertainment. Does that clarrify to some degree?
GB was essentially dead by 1994, with retail and publisher support almost non existant. After VB flopped, Nintendo reinvented the GB with Pokemon and GB Pocket. GB essetially had 2 distinct lifecycles, not one decade long reign.open_mouth_ said:
Well, I'm sorry but you're wrong. GBC is actually a different chipset from GB, it's essentially a new system. GBA wasn't ready by 1998, so GBC was slapped together using the same screen tech and a souped up Z80 to combat the new 16bit handhelds from Bandai and SNK. GBC's surprising success led to GBA's delay even... GBA was originally targeted for a late 1999/early 2000 launch iirc.open_mouth_ said:
Don't fall for the PR, DS is essentially going to inherit the GB base. Developers and retail have already adpoted it as he next Game Boy, consumers will follow.open_mouth_ said:
The third pillar talk is just PR. Nintendo doesn't want consumers to lose confidence in GBA just yet, and by having DS as a seperate product line they're leaving the door open to revive GB if it falls flat while easing the GBA transition.open_mouth_ said:
