• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Nintendo's Iwata: "Our approach to targeting children has been inadequate"

Yes.
Pay money to Rockstar to have an exclusive GTA.
It can be an spinoff in the ways of "Liberty City Stories".

To attract more children you have to show that yu are not kiddy

Rockstar already tested the waters with this when they made GTA: Chinatown Wars for the Nintendo DS and it didn't meet sales expectations, so they had to port the game over to the PSP and iOS just to reach a larger audience.

While I am totally OK with Nintendo making and targeting game to children, I do think Nintendo needs to diversify their library a bit more in making games for general audiences and even a few mature themed games. Back when they still had Rare on the N64, they had just that, a library of games that were more diverse for different audiences. On the Wii they had system that was targeted more towards the family in general, which was a pretty good angle to go at. They could use another Metroid Prime, or Goldeneye in their library... not so much FPS's, but a few good slightly more mature themed titles to counter balance all their colorful platformers.
 

Snakeyes

Member
I don't disagree that Nintendo could pull it off given unlimited time, unlimited money, and the assumption that the dedicated console market continues to exist.

However, given the scale of the Wii U disaster and the steep decline of the handheld market, I'm not sure that they have multiple generations left to get it right.

They don't need unlimited time or money. One generation where they establish and maintain the image of a Nintendo that has finally learned from, and addressed its past shortcomings would be enough to get the ball rolling.
 

QaaQer

Member
I felt this way as soon as I saw the 3DS. And more so when I held one. An expensive, flimsy device with limited viewing angles for the flagship feature, which itself is the perfect target for alarming news coverage about harming kids that Nintendo products are a magnet for.

The 2DS, with that solid, chunky plastic, released with one large touchsceen, some basic apps, The lowest price possible, and preferably a Pokemon game is how you get kids on board early, obviously through their parents the Christmas it releases.

The original 3DS felt like Nintendo looking at the PSP and going, "how can we make the DS more like that?" Rather than the Gameboy model where you can bake it into the center of a cake, pull it out, and play a game of Tetris on it.

Maybe he means the next product won't have a waning on the box saying "children under 7 should not use this product."
 

Riki

Member
Rockstar already tested the waters with this when they made GTA: Chinatown Wars for the Nintendo DS and it didn't meet sales expectations. Then they ported it over to the PSP and iOS to reach a larger audience.

While I am totally OK with Nintendo making and targeting game to children, I do think Nintendo needs to diversify their library a bit more in making games for general audiences and even a few mature themed games. Back when they still had Rare on the N64, they had just that, a library of games that were more diverse for different audiences. On the Wii they had system that was targeted more towards the family in general, which was a pretty good angle to go at. They could use another Metroid Prime, or Goldeneye in their library... not so much FPS's, but a few good slightly more mature themed titles to counter balance all their colorful platformers.
Didn't Chinatown sell worse on the PSP?
 
I don't see how they can possibly aim younger than they already are. Since the Wii/DS, they've been neutering their games for younger audiences.

I don't think Nintendo should have an age group in mind when making their software. Just make cool games. I think this is how they used to develop their software in the first place. But somewhere along the line they forgot how to do that and the games looked more and more focus tested.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
They have a lot of developers in Japan. There is no reason NCL and EADs have to start making software exclusively for the west if they can find competent studios on our side of the pond.
America has been and likely continues to be Nintendo's most important market.
 

Sandfox

Member
I honestly don't think they can. As others have expressed in this thread, the question on parents' minds pertaining to their children owning video game devices has shifted from "What's the cheapest gaming device I could buy for him?" to "Why buy an extra device when I can just give him my old tablet?"

A low entry price for their hardware simply isn't going to matter when both the parents don't think they need it, and the children aren't asking for it because they're only vaguely aware of who Mario and Pikachu even are.

They would have to find a way to make a product that the kid wants and would ask their parent for even if they have a tablet.
 
But that is simply not true. The Revolution was revealed with a Prime 3 target render and the first game announced was Red Steel. A realistic Zelda was available at the Wii's launch. Even 3D Mario traded Sunshine's cheerful beaches for a more neutral and mysterious space setting. Yes, the Wii had a lot of child-friendly titles, but Nintendo's own software often appealed, or was at least inoffensive to an older demographic

I was talking about the NES and SNES, which defined Nintendo and made their IP huge enough that people cared about Zelda, Metroid, and Mario decades later for the Wii's launch (when the Wii became big thanks to the child and family friendly Wii Sports).
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
We are in agreement. Expanding their western developer pool and making a go of it in uncharted genres digitally would be an excellent start. Maybe then they'd run into their own minecraft, rust, dayz, castle crashers, trials, etc.

Think about this much. The 360 and PS3 didn't become popular because of Minecraft, but when kids found out they could get it on their parent's systems it was a win win for the family. Right now Nintendo isn't giving kids OR "core" adults (who might have played GC, N64, SNES or NES) a good reason to buy Wii U. Their handhelds are faring better, but no one knows how long that'll last.

I agree with all this, and while I do think the Wii U offer some excellent games, there is simply not enough quantity there for it to be worthwhile for most gamers. The lack of thirdparty is the core problem there of course, and sadly, I dont really think there is an easy way back there. So they end up with either expanding their software development alot and making tons of games in genres they dont really use to do, or quit hardware. The second thing is probably the wisest, even though it would also be the worst for gamers imo.
 

royalan

Member
They're going to try harder to do what they've already been doing for roughly 7+ years? What is this senseless, and relentless obsession on this tiny part of the market? Focus on the market as whole and you might actually have a future in the console business. This insistence on refusing to acknowledge the market for what is instead of what Iwata wants it to be is baffling.

We can write essays all damn day, but this right here is the fucking core of the problem. This right here. You could not put it more perfectly than this if you tried.

And this is exactly why it will be Iwata that leads Nintendo to ruin.
 
They don't need unlimited time or money. One generation where they establish and maintain the image of a Nintendo that has finally learned from, and addressed its past shortcomings would be enough to get the ball rolling.

Can you elaborate a bit on what this would entail and why exactly it would entice PS4/XB1 owners over?
 
If you can find where I said or even implied that, go right ahead.

When you implied when Nintendo worked with the companies you mentioned targeting an older audience did little to help it and when they targeted younger audiences they were more successful.

Judging from your post, you claim when Nintendo tried to reach an older audience was a failure. But remember, those partnerships were made during the N64 and GCN days, two consoles with the issues I mentioned. They both were doomed from the start thanks for Nintendo's wrong decisions into media storage selection and unappealing design for them.

Nintendo made the right choice to go after this audience during this time, but their awful decision to go carts with N64 and mini-DVD with a purple box design with GCN created obstacles for such strategy to work.
 
It occurs to me that perhaps Iwata is talking... solely about WiiU here? Which I just can't agree with at all in that case. If he was saying "we need to pump up our handheld success again with kids", bang on with the need to lower software prices. But selling a home console launch to kids is just not how things work anymore.

How would the WiiU have been even more kid focussed anyway? Outside of the third party port bilge, every single Nintendo title was kid aimed. NintendoLand, Mario, Pikmin, Lego, even W101. Other than buying Minecraft exclusivity, theres not much else they could have done more kid-orientated there.
Cheaper versions of mine craft, skylanders, etc with Mario branding. Maybe something experimental. Really, I'm not sure what they can do that's in their wheelhouse when f2p and other cheap mobile games are consuming the child user base. I know when I was a kid if Mom said I could either have Blaster Master or a couple Amiga 50-game collections with 10 versions of Othello and checkers and some mediocre shooters I'd be leaning hard toward variety over quality.
 

Taker666

Member
I don't see how they can possibly aim younger than they already are. Since the Wii/DS, they've been neutering their games for younger audiences.

I don't think Nintendo should have an age group in mind when making their software. Just make cool games. I think this is how they used to develop their software in the first place. But somewhere along the line they forgot how to do that and the games looked more and more focus tested.

NFC Nintendogs might be a good start.

Little plastic toys of every breed sold for $5 a piece to be scanned into the game.
 

Lime

Member
Nintendo's branding and visual profile have always and are still to this day heavily reliant on children and family aesthetics. Perhaps they're simply doing it wrong by not keeping up with the times in terms of what type of aesthetics appeal to younger demographics and families.
 

Baleoce

Member
This actually pleases me to hear this in some ways, and worries me in others. I'm glad their resolve on appealing to children is as strong as ever. It's a conundrum that needs to be cracked. However, marketing to children is not their sole problem I don't think.

As regards to the OP question. Yes, I do think they could be doing more. I know this because whenever my nephews (6 and 7) come around to my house, they try the Wii U, and the 3DS, and I deliberately put them on the best stuff, which incidentally ends up being stuff that's appropriate for them. So Pokemon on the 3DS, and NintendoLand (man, my nephew is perfectly happy just playing Mario Chase with me all afternoon), Super Mario 3D World etc on the Wii U. I never see them as content and immersed in a game as when they come over to my place. It works every time. (That, and Minecraft on the PS3. It's like catnip to them.. xD)

This made me realize that perhaps the problem isn't finding more ways to appeal to them directly, but rather, how to get those players onto the system in the first place? They love playing it when they're around, but when they leave, they seem to forget all about it until they come back. In todays market, a lot of parents buy the console they want, primarily. It's a hefty purchase, and it's only natural that they want something in it for themselves, even if it's meant to be for their kids. Then they let their kids play with it as well, both parties are happy. Aggressive marketing influences the kid to want that same product for the same reasons the parent wants it. There's a lot more *good* all encompassing I.Ps out now for the other consoles. Sony has stuff like Ratchet, Jak. Lego <franchise> is a multiplatform I.P, and skylanders. So there's the option and depth on other consoles now. That depth in variety used to be Nintendos key strength, and I feel it's what they're now missing, and it's why I'm partly worried hearing this translation.

If I was to give a rough answer, you *have* to have games that appeal to everyone on that system to start with. If that means beefing it up so that it can compete technically, and gaining more 3rd party support as a result, then so be it. Nothing is stopping a company from continuing to make games in their own unique style just because the system can run UE4 flawlessly. Nintendo is always going to do its own thing, it doesn't mean they have to restrict other companies from doing *their* own thing on your system. Look back at their past systems. They've always had the most success when the library and variety of games have been at its most diverse. It's just unfortunate now that in order for those 3rd parties to get involved with a system, they have to be able to make the very same game that they make on the other systems (as opposed to something original, or dare I even say it, exclusive). It's been this way for a long time now and it's nothing new.

So I guess then the answer for me is not just to target children. That would be a mistake, and it would be continuing down the same mistake they've aligned themselves to for a while now. They need to target everyone.gif

(Apologies in advance, I'm not really that good at making coherent long winded thoughts, so there's a good chance I didn't get my opinion across very well).
 

Tobor

Member
He's right you know, every Wii U ad I've seen is targeted at the older casual crowd rather than directly at kids.

Aimed at parents, you mean, which is true. Look at the stupid ads with the kids showing charts and stuff to their parents. It's all aimed at getting the parents to buy the Wii U.

If they make the kids want the games, the parents will follow.

In the old days, Nintendo had cartoons and children's cereal, and commercials were all aimed directly at the gamers(children).

Of course, does realizing this now even matter?
 
When you implied when Nintendo worked with the companies you mentioned targeting an older audience did little to help it and when they targeted younger audiences they were more successful.

Judging from your post, you claim when Nintendo tried to reach an older audience was a failure. But remember, those partnerships were made during the N64 and GCN days, two consoles with the issues I mentioned. They both were doomed from the start thanks for Nintendo's wrong decisions into media storage selection and unappealing design for them.

Nintendo made the right choice to go after this audience during this time, but their awful decision to go carts with N64 and mini-DVD with a purple box design with GCN created obstacles for such strategy to work.

Right, Nintendo made wrong decisions with the N64 and the GCN because they don't understand older audiences. They're not very well suited for that kind of direction, unless they completely change their management and philosophy. "Well they completely fucked up in competing in that market nearly every time they attempted it, they should try again but get it right this time," isn't an answer.

In the case that they're not going to change their management and direction, then trying to fix the base that has made them popular every time (children and families) would be a good idea, because right now the long term prospects in that department are being eaten away by phones and the only people who will buy Nintendo hardware and software going forward are a dwindling group of adult fans.
 
America has been and likely continues to be Nintendo's most important market.
Their hardware and software sure doesn't say it. Neither does it's development staff numbers. If you told the average gamer that all Nintendo game developers were Japanese they'd probably believe it if they didn't know about Metroid Prime or Retro. That is a big perception problem that ought to be addressed.
I agree with all this, and while I do think the Wii U offer some excellent games, there is simply not enough quantity there for it to be worthwhile for most gamers. The lack of thirdparty is the core problem there of course, and sadly, I dont really think there is an easy way back there. So they end up with either expanding their software development alot and making tons of games in genres they dont really use to do, or quit hardware. The second thing is probably the wisest, even though it would also be the worst for gamers imo.
Which is probably why I hope they try the first before taking drastic steps. Too bad such an expansion in Europe and America would probably take just as long as it did to expand (and build a building for) in Japan. Time is not on their side. :/
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
They could just keep the type of games they have now that people like in conjunction with new titles and philosophies which would give a lot of people the best of both worlds. I feel that while the handheld market is shrinking there will always be a number of people who will want a dedicated device for a deeper experience and as long as Nintendo makes the right moves they won't be forced to go mobile.

How big is this dedicated market though? The Wii U is at less than 6 million 15 months after launch. No way there is much point in keeping making games like Mario 3D World for such a small market.

"Children" in this sense means aged eight or younger. Preteens, though, are more likely to seek out grittier games. I once had the displeasure of working with a nine-year-old who called Halo a "baby game" because it had bright colors and space travel.

Lol, and Halo which is my favorite shooters!
 
Iwata is absolutely right about this.

In late 2011 when the 3DS struggled out of the gate - Nintendo went into panic mode and started green lighting games that would target a mid to higher-skilled audience because they were afraid their casual audience was gone. Rather than trying to do things differently from the tablet market, they ended up stepping into a red ocean where Microsoft was paying off developers aggressively to try and kill their closest competitors.

The failure of the Wii U gives Nintendo tremendous opportunity. I'm hoping that rather than focus on pointless things advocated by a minority - like better graphics or competitive online multiplayer or region-specific shoot bang games with Hollywood voices, they make the kinds of games that will engage young children and captivate their imaginations - and they are damn good at that and should not fear competing in that market at all.

One idea I've been playing with is a "creation tablet" - a 7-inch HD tablet (w/ controls) filled with a variety of Nintendo F2P content and the ability to buy premium content (via eShop) and VC - but with well-designed targeted apps that help young children create their own games and share it with their parents. Think of it as a built-in version of Mario Paint - but one that includes basic programming, animation, etc. and the ability to collaborate with other "creation tablet" owners on simple game projects.

Parents are crazy to help their children get a head start in STEM, and computer science is a big deal now - so if Nintendo rides that trend - I see amazing things happening for them - three kids in a family could get together and make a great game to play with their parents - and then publish it for free on eShop Creations or something to share it with their family members. It's the kind of device that everyone would want to own - and if Nintendo plays its cards right - they can have sufficient amounts of apps in it to make it very attractive to parents buying an iPad Mini Retina for their kids.

I know this doesn't bode well for the future of places like Monolith Soft or the relationship with Platinum Games - but it's time Nintendo stop trying to be everything to everyone and kill it in the market they know best - young children and their parents. Monolith Soft can make games for the tablet - and they will still probably keep selling the 250-500k units at a much lower cost, and won't weigh down Nintendo's finances.

If they keep them around, Platinum can start making games for young children that actually sell rather than trying to get a fickle AAA audience that buys games purely on brand recognition and requires tremendous development effort with little payoff IMHO.

With the Wii U they should just phase it out over the next two years before launching "Nintendo Home" - a device that has between 500gigaflops - or less - whatever the lowest base tech is for tablets at the time.

Instead of releasing a novel controller - they just give it a regular controller and make it compatible with the "creation tablet" as another controller - the Home device can have an eShop that gives you access to the back catalogue of GC, Wii, Wii U titles, etc - and they can release new content on it at both F2P and Premium prices. You can play premium content designed for the system, your eShop Creations games, or use it for other media. The cost should be under $100 so that families will buy it on an impulse. It should not come with anything but the box, HDMI, and power supply. Nintendo can keep making games for this device - but shy away from $20-30 million dollar budgets that make AAA very unattractive.

This is a Nintendo I'd be super excited about.
 

ironcreed

Banned
Perhaps they should take a gander at the other home consoles in order to see where the market they are trying to compete in is. That includes kids, by the way. But if their plan going forward is to release apps and demos on mobile devices and tablets in order to sway people to their own hardware, then they will just be in for another rude awakening.

The Wii crowd that moved on to phones and tablets are not coming back to another Wii. That ship has long sailed. They can either wake up and try to compete where the market actually is, or continue to fall flat on their face in a vain attempt to try and win back a crowd that is long gone.
 

rpmurphy

Member
Maybe a better question is "do you think Nintendo can be the premiere video game brand among children and still make their own hardware going forward?"
If the question is whether the existence of apps on Apple and Android devices prevent a successful hardware dedicated to those apps, I think it is possible in the near future, but the market is limited, and the far future is uncertain. On the Kindle, for example, you can also read the same books on your iPad or Android tablet Kindle apps, but it's not a bomba product; there are other appealing factors that still allow it to exist alongside general purpose tablets. But the lingering question is will future generations care for the difference? The question could also be asked for physical controls for portable games.
 
You are missing Star Fox Adventures.

Even SFA. It was among 2002 best selling GCN's titles and managed to sell a million, making one of the best selling GCN titles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Nintendo_GameCube_video_games

Sales weren't the main reason for it's departure. You may read this article, it contains detailed information for why both companies ended their relationship:

http://www.dromble.com/2014/01/07/dolphin-tale-story-of-gamecube/
 

Thorakai

Member
Nintendo should look to Pokemon and expand their franchises vigorously outside the realm of gaming. I can tell kids love Angry Birds and Pokemon not because I see them playing the games, but because of the merchandise they lug around. So many of Nintendo's franchises have wonderful worlds and characters that can be easily expanded to trading cards, cartoons, clothing, art books, among other things. Kids want to indulge in their favorite shows and mascots, so why not capitalize on that desire and offer them products that will only feed their love for Nintendo franchises? Make it easier for friends to share their love of Mario by promoting Apps that air free episodes of a cartoon series. Take advantage of the devices in their hands so that your characters occupy a kid's mind.
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
They have a lot of developers in Japan. There is no reason NCL and EADs have to start making software exclusively for the west if they can find competent studios on our side of the pond.

True, but their japanese games dont sell (and will sell even less when the handheld market continue to evaporate). Why release stuff like Mario 3D World if its outsold by fucking Knack?
 

Sandfox

Member
How big is this dedicated market though? The Wii U is at less than 6 million 15 months after launch. No way there is much point in keeping making games like Mario 3D World for such a small market.

I was talking about handhelds and they would obviously have to adjust in order to make money.

Nobody is going to buy a Nintendo tablet.

I don't think we're going to see a Nintendo tablet anytime soon.
 

GeeDuhb

Member
I am just jumping in to this thread and have not read much more than the back and forth about the translation in the first 100 or so posts, but...

I know this largely relates to the US, but is it just me who feels it is obvious that targeting kids or not, the economy [in the US] has not done Nintendo any favors? Kids might love playing games on mobile devices and the ability to play them at home, on the go, etc...But I am sure parents, especially in an economy like this, would rather spend a similar amount (or possibly even less) to buy their kids a phone/iPod touch/tablet and let them buy games that are free or cost them a few bucks, as opposed to dropping $30, $40, or $60 on a single game that said child will likely become bored with in due time...let alone the cost of the console.

Unfortunately for Nintendo, there are many more viable options now that cost a substantial amount less than they used to.

I think that they are onto something with a realization that their younger audience might have faltered in the past few years, but I don't think that "targeting" kids more is going to fix the situation. I think it is just largely a result of the way the industry has changed. And yet again, I think it points to the fact that by jumping on the mobile bandwagon, Nintendo might be able to reel back in some of those younger gamers, while making plenty of money from older ones as well.
 
Didn't Chinatown sell worse on the PSP?

Yeah it most likely did, which is why the iOS port exists. Rockstar likes money, they like to release their games on platforms that can make them money. On the handheld side of gaming. Rockstar has been putting all their focus on iOS and Android, with ports of Max Payne, GTA III. GTA VC and GTA San Andreas.The dedicated handheld market hasn't been cutting it for them over the last few years.
 
Nobody is going to buy a Nintendo tablet.

Tons of people would buy a Nintendo tablet if it was in the "budget tablet" price range. Are you kidding? Parents are buying truck loads of cheep android tablets for their kids. Nintendo should ride that wave.
 
Kids have extreme end in tastes of games too, from angry birds/skylanders to call of duty/GTA. Watch Nintendo announce a GTA clone and other m rated games.


:|
 

boyshine

Member
Nintendo should be more active in getting the iOS bestsellers to eShop as quickly as possible. The fact that Minecraft came to Xbox, then PlayStation, and still not any Nintendo platform is a sign of what's wrong. It's not enough to simply say "come to us if you want", they need to approach developers asking "how can we get your game on our platform?".. I sincerely hope that's the business change they're talking about. Abandoning Wii U for another system that may fail as well unless they fix the core issues with software support and brand image, is 32X/Saturn/Dreamcast all over again.

What worries me is that I'm not seeing any sign of assurance towards committing to a Wii U "comeback". There's a lot of potential in the system, it was a mistake to launch it when people were starting to talk about PS4 and XO, it was totally lost in the shadows from the beginning. When the hype cools, and it becomes clear exactly how much better the library on Wii U is for kids compared to PS4/XO, then interest should rise. And why the hell they keep doing those "Wii Party" games when they know that Mario Party is the one people want is beyond me. Release Mario Party 10, Kirby, Yarn Yoshi. And together with what's already out + coming soon (DKC,MK8,Smash), the library is unbeatable for that 6-12 audience..

And.. coming from a retail perspective.. release educational games on eShop for the 2-5 age groups as well. Simple stuff, animal sounds, pictures, shapes, using touch and GamePad only. No other console offer that. And it's a constant request from parents who want to buy consoles for kids as young as 2 years old.
 

Jarmel

Banned
Tons of people would buy a Nintendo tablet if it was in the "budget tablet" price range. Are you kidding? Parents are buying truck loads of cheep android tablets for their kids. Nintendo should ride that wave.

And why would someone get a Nintendo variant when they can get an Android one with better features,specs, stores and functionality?
 

Snaku

Banned
The one IP you have that still maintains a strong connection with children you simply refuse to develop on home consoles out of some misplaced mantra that it should only be played on portable devices. Make a mainline Pokemon game for WiiU if you want children kicking and screaming for the system.
 

Snakeyes

Member
Can you elaborate a bit on what this would entail and why exactly it would entice PS4/XB1 owners over?

Aside from having a console that's more attractive from a technical standpoint, core-friendly marketing and better third party relationships, it's all about making games that audience wants to play, but with a Nintendo touch.

For example, look at Titanfall and its increased focus on movement, platforming and vertical levels. It's a fresh take on the FPS genre that's getting a lot of positive buzz everywhere, and it's exactly the type of shooter I could see Nintendo making given their pedigree.
 

AzaK

Member
So Iwata's answer for Nintendo is to become even more kiddie? Awesome. :I

Makes sense though. To get the enthusiast, adult, sophisticated gamer would require them to:

1) High end hardware
2) Third party support
3) Exciting ecosystems and general infrstructure

To get kids:

1) Make it cheap
2) Make it cute
3) Advertise to them and parents

Which one do you think Nintendo would prefer to do in order to generate the most profit?
 

ironcreed

Banned
Tons of people would buy a Nintendo tablet if it was in the "budget tablet" price range. Are you kidding? Parents are buying truck loads of cheep android tablets for their kids. Nintendo should ride that wave.

Now if they go all in on a tablet they might see some success. But it sure would be sad to see that instead of seeing them come out with guns blazing on the home console front with a revamped strategy and some bold new IPs.
 
Top Bottom