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[chinch]

much todo about nothing.

BC is a non-issue for sales. Nevermind M$ is going to get alot of new customers who didn't buy Xbox (ie. those skeptical, current younger ps2 owners or new video gamers).

By the time PS3 launches only a few die hards would bother playing Xbox1 games anyways... and they'll have both boxes (along w/ every other console). Moot issue for sales.

Nevermind MS doesn't want all "$9.99 bargain titles" being purchased with the new XBOX2.

Common sense people.

 

[evil ways]

Well that pretty much guarantees that I will not buy the Xbox 2 at least until after a year or more of it's release. I just got an Xbox in April so I'm in no hurry to buy another console unless I can play the Xbox games I currently have in it.

 

[Spectral Glider]

Yeah, they did. Don't rely on Playstation games to sell your system when you have an asstacular launch lineup.

So has this officially moved from an old Sega DC warcry to a Microsoft warcry now? Recycling rules!

 

[MoxManiac]

No BC, no buy. I'll be waiting for PS3/N5 while I continue to enjoy Xbox/PS2/GC.

 

[GuntherBait]

Well that pretty much guarantees that I will not buy the Xbox 2 at least until after a year or more of it's release. I just got an Xbox in April so I'm in no hurry to buy another console unless I can play the Xbox games I currently have in it.

Same boat Evil.

I just got mine a week or so ago and I'm not buy ANY new consoles till 2006/2007 at the earliest.

MS has really got their head up their asses over their next console. Why you might ask? False reports like this one, that may or maybe true. No new hardware specs other than the rumored "non" HDD and ATi card + flash memory.

Honestly though, Sony is doing a good thing by being patient. MS hasn't been patient because they want profit, of which, they're not going to get if Xbox 2 comes out next Christimas. Only the hardcore fanboys will be buying it then since (I'm assuming... most SMART developers would) hold off making XB2 games since the Xbox base is still growing.

 

[CrimsonSkies]

I'd like to be able to buy a $50 adaptor for the Xbox 2 that would let me play Xbox 1 games. I however think the following now:

Xbox 2 in 2005.
Xbox 2 will not be B/C.
Xbox 2 will focus on a killer launch lineup.
Xbox 2 tech will be able to keep pace with the competition launching a year later.

I could be wrong on all four, but that's the way I'm thinking about it now.

 

[kaching]

I'm not saying that it will or will not end up being backwards compatible. No one knows at this point, not even MS -- because they are very much on the fence on the issue.

I'm simply commenting on the fact that Fahey makes about 3 articles a week about why MS is going to fail, full of "facts" for which he has no support other than his secret unnamed sources.

Well, if you're going to try to influence which way MS falls off their fence wouldn't now be the time to do it before there's been any formal product announcement, before they've finalized plans past the point of no return?

It's gotta be better than simply starting to rationalize away BC, like some people are doing...

 

[human5892]

Are you suggesting that we really have no clue how much BC helped the PS2?

No, I was not talking about the PS2 at all when I said that.

people argued that xbox would fail because it didn't have DC backwards compatibility.
people argued that xbox wouldn't get key publishers like EA, or Sega.
people argued that xbox would fail without keyboard & mouse support
people argued that XboxLive would fail without 56k support
people argued that XboxLive would fail without keyboard & mouse support (b/c of voice)

I'm surprised people aren't tired of the whole Xbox bashing bs.

Even if people did say all of those things, what do things like Xbox Live and third party support have to do with backwards compatibility being present or not? That was the whole point of my original statement.

Also, I don't think that debating over whether or not Xbox2 will include BC -- and whether or not said inclusion could be a possible selling point -- is "bashing" the Xbox.

 

[DopeyFish]

Even if people did say all of those things, what do things like Xbox Live and third party support have to do with backwards compatibility being present or not? That was the whole point of my original statement.

Also, I don't think that debating over whether or not Xbox2 will include BC -- and whether or not said inclusion could be a possible selling point -- is "bashing" the Xbox.

Because they are all claiming bomb when it doesn't have something they want *at the time*

 

[human5892]

Because they are all claiming bomb when it doesn't have something they want *at the time*

True...but just because those other things turned out contrary to what some people were asserting, that doesn't mean that the whole BC issue will follow suit. After all, some people are always going to be wrong in every scenario.

 

[MoxManiac]

Dopey, does MS plan to keep original Xbox games playable on live at and beyond Xbox2's launch?

 

[DopeyFish]

I haven't really asked anyone, but remember Allard said something that people will be playing Halo2 on Live for 10 years.

I remember hearing before XboxLive was announced that the online plan will be cross platform (Live on Xbox, Xbox2) and will have about 10 years on top before a consoles support is removed (could be longer depending on popularity ala Dreamcast)

 

[krypt0nian]

I haven't really asked anyone, but remember Allard said something that people will be playing Halo2 on Live for 10 years.

On the PC maybe....

 

[akascream]

No, I was not talking about the PS2 at all when I said that.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[maximum360]

BC is pointless. If you already have an Xbox use that.

Most people buying an Xbox Next won't be buying it to play regular Xbox games anyway (until you're the hardcore gamer type which is a small base).

I just want to see a great machine that rivals (or surpasses) the PS3 and GCNext.

 

[BuddyC]

i miss the days of "xb will fail because it won't play DC games."

sidenote: this thread makes me weep

 

[FinFan]

All they need to do is have a way to link the Xbox 2 to the Xbox 1 using the ethernet port and BC shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Ashitaka]

All they need to do is have a way to link the Xbox 2 to the Xbox 1 using the ethernet port and BC shouldn't be a problem.

Huh? Wouldn't that require that you still have an Xbox 1, which defeats the point of BC?

 

[human5892]

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Eh? The PS2 was not part of the discussion I was having with Dopeyfish; neither he nor I brought it up. I don't see why the PS2 would be a part of what I said.

 

[AirBrian]

I however think the following now:

Xbox 2 in 2005.
Xbox 2 will not be B/C.
Xbox 2 will focus on a killer launch lineup.
Xbox 2 tech will be able to keep pace with the competition launching a year later.

I could be wrong on all four, but that's the way I'm thinking about it now.

My thoughts exactly. I fully expected Halo 3 to be a launch title, but seeing how long Halo 2 has taken, do you still think it's possible if Xenon is in fact released Holiday 2005?

 

[FinFan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by FinFan
All they need to do is have a way to link the Xbox 2 to the Xbox 1 using the ethernet port and BC shouldn't be a problem.


Huh? Wouldn't that require that you still have an Xbox 1, which defeats the point of BC?

exactly.

 

[open_mouth_]

Huh? Wouldn't that require that you still have an Xbox 1, which defeats the point of BC?

ROFL!

If the costs are too high, then I don't mind if they skip BC. As long as MS and 3rd parties continue to support the Xbox even after Xenon is released, then it's all good. There's a large mass market out there that are looking for cheap, quality games.

 

[BeOnEdge]

who cares if its not backward compatible. you guys act as if MS forces you to trade in your old xbox and without an option to ever buy one again leaving your old xbox games worthless. geez. i think i've played old psone games on my ps2 less than 10 times in 3 years.

 

[Bluemercury]

I'm not saying that it will or will not end up being backwards compatible. No one knows at this point, not even MS -- because they are very much on the fence on the issue.

I'm simply commenting on the fact that Fahey makes about 3 articles a week about why MS is going to fail, full of "facts" for which he has no support other than his secret unnamed sources.

Well at least its nice for a change instead of having the double of articles about why Nintendo is doomed.....

 

[Tenguman]

who cares if its not backward compatible. you guys act as if MS forces you to trade in your old xbox and without an option to ever buy one again leaving your old xbox games worthless. geez. i think i've played old psone games on my ps2 less than 10 times in 3 years.

Yeah, but there was no online service

BC becomes a very attractive feature if you still want to play your favorite games online.

MS thinks people will still be playing Halo 2 online 10 years from now. I guess those xboxen better be built sturdy....

 

[human5892]

who cares if its not backward compatible. you guys act as if MS forces you to trade in your old xbox and without an option to ever buy one again leaving your old xbox games worthless. geez. i think i've played old psone games on my ps2 less than 10 times in 3 years.

Gah. We've been through pro-BC arguments tons of times, and not all of them involve playing your old games again:

- Take away from the cost of a new system
- Opens up shelf space
- Reduces clutter/annoyance of having all kinds of connections and wires (some televisions may not even have enough inputs for multiple systems, resulting in having to buy more equipment or continuously swap wires in and out depending on what you want to play)
- Makes library of new system seem bigger, as well as being a "failsafe" of sorts in case of a weak launch
- Increases consumer perception of product's worth
- Builds brand loyalty
- Market leaders in both fields (console and portable) use it

Etc.

 

[sonycowboy]

Gah. We've been through pro-BC arguments tons of times, and not all of them involve playing your old games again:

- Take away from the cost of a new system
- Opens up shelf space
- Reduces clutter/annoyance of having all kinds of connections and wires (some televisions may not even have enough inputs for multiple systems, resulting in having to buy more equipment or continuously swap wires in and out depending on what you want to play)
- Makes library of new system seem bigger, as well as being a "failsafe" of sorts in case of a weak launch
- Increases consumer perception of product's worth
- Builds brand loyalty
- Market leaders in both fields (console and portable) use it

Etc.

You've got to add a monster one.

1) People will not buy a game if 6 months later the format is going to be outdated. PSOne games not only sold very, very well after the PS2 launch because of BC, but also for the months leading up to the launch. They knew that their investment in the games would be secure, even if they decided to upgrade the hardware. Without BC Driver 2, FFIX, Syphon Filter, Madden 2001, and many others would have been stillborn at launch much like the majority of N64 releases at the time.

I'm not going to argue that people couldn't keep playing the PSone games on their PSOne, but it's much like the transition from cassette to CD. People want their purchases to be viable parts of thier "library" even if they don't use it regularly. It's almost a subconscious compulsion.

 

[akascream]

Eh? The PS2 was not part of the discussion I was having with Dopeyfish; neither he nor I brought it up. I don't see why the PS2 would be a part of what I said.

I don't think Dopey was saying that Xenon will be successful because people were wrong about Xbox Live and 56k. I think he was saying exactly what you turned around and said in response (ie. you can't draw those kinds of conclusions). I just took it further. People say the PS2 or Gameboy lines were/are successful because of BC when there are far too many variables to draw any conclusions of the sort. So how can you say Xbox will fail if it lacks BC?

 

[bjork]

I'll buy Xhouse 2 either way, so I suppose it doesn't matter to me. It'd be nice if the b/c was in there, but if it's not :shrug:

 

[Prine]

I for one don't care if I can play XBox games on XBox 2.

 

[mj1108]

You've got to add a monster one.

1) People will not buy a game if 6 months later the format is going to be outdated. PSOne games not only sold very, very well after the PS2 launch because of BC, but also for the months leading up to the launch. They knew that their investment in the games would be secure, even if they decided to upgrade the hardware. Without BC Driver 2, FFIX, Syphon Filter, Madden 2001, and many others would have been stillborn at launch much like the majority of N64 releases at the time.

I'm not going to argue that people couldn't keep playing the PSone games on their PSOne, but it's much like the transition from cassette to CD. People want their purchases to be viable parts of thier "library" even if they don't use it regularly. It's almost a subconscious compulsion.

Plus another:

It's a selling point to the casuals and parents who buy the system for their kids.

 

[element]

It's a selling point to the casuals and parents who buy the system for their kids.

These people wouldn't buy their kid a brand new $300 game machine when it comes out. These are the type of people who buy after the first price drop.

 

[Mega Man's Electric Sheep]

"According to a source close to the project, internal Microsoft figures suggest that only 10 per cent of PlayStation 2 purchasers were interested in the console's ability to play titles developed for the original PlayStation."


And only 10% of XBOX users are interested in LIVE, so I guess they'll just drop online play, right?

Yes, a lot of people don't care about backwards compatibility, but quite a few do, especially those who just bought their XBOX this year.

 

[sonycowboy]

These people wouldn't buy their kid a brand new $300 game machine when it comes out. These are the type of people who buy after the first price drop.

Wrong. I've seen parents drop money for their kids that would make your eyes bleed. Casuals <> poor.

 

[belgurdo]

Why would you need BC anyway if you already have an Xbox to play the old games?

 

[XboxGamers]

Speculation about the backwards compatibility functionality has been rife since it emerged that Xbox 2 - codenamed Xenon - will have radically different hardware to the original system, with a non-x86 processor, no hard drive and an ATI, rather than NVIDIA, graphics chipset, all of which would make running Xbox titles on the platform very difficult.

How the hell the system is going to live without a HD? I need backwords!

 

[element]

Wrong. I've seen parents drop money for their kids that would make your eyes bleed. Casuals <> poor.

Then those people have money, which is the minoirty of parents.
With the economy the way it is. Parents aren't going to shell out $400 (system & games) for a Xmas present. No matter what the system can do.

And only 10% of XBOX users are interested in LIVE, so I guess they'll just drop online play, right?

Hmm, support a feature that lets you play OLD games or support a feature that changes games for the FUTURE?
hmmmmmmm. let's think about that one.

 

[DopeyFish]

How the hell the system is going to live without a HD? I need backwords!

just keep in mind this:

the only thing official about "Xbox 2" is that ATI, IBM and M-Systems are parts for it.

 

[Mega Man's Electric Sheep]

Because I will not invest money in another XBOX only a year after I bought this one, but I would if I could sell my XBOX and my sucky games to some dumb kid and put the money towards the new XBOX. Otherwise, I can wait until it is out for a year. It's not like any system has enough interesting stuff to play at launch anyway.

 

[Apharmd Battler]

I for one don't care if I can play XBox games on XBox 2.

I also could care less. I mean really it was a much touted feature for the PS2, but how many play PS1 games on it (let alone howmany people didn't already own 1 or more PS1 consoles). In my opinion the PS1 emulation is what kind of anchored down the PS2 and IMHO kept the system from reallyl taking off graphcally (I'll explain later).

I'd rather have the new hot piece of hardware than worry about BC, I've already got 3 XBox consoles. It would be nice, but it makes perfect sense why M$ is moving forward. Why waste money developing emulation and paying Nvidia licensing fees (who's probably miffed at not providing the GPU to XBox2, not too mention the chip price fiasco), then just taking the technology forward. But hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.....

 

[DopeyFish]

Because I will not invest money in another XBOX only a year after I bought this one, but I would if I could sell my XBOX and my sucky games to some dumb kid and put the money towards the new XBOX. Otherwise, I can wait until it is out for a year. It's not like any system has enough interesting stuff to play at launch anyway.

Xbox had a pretty good launch, considering the time when the devs first got their first devkits (around E3 2000) ... heck even the devkits containing the NV20 didn't come till around christmas 2000/early 2001. And they still had a 15-20 game launch containing titles such as Amped, PGR, Dead or Alive 3, Oddworld, Halo and more. They will have a lot better opportunity to get a better launch this time too.

 

[Rhindle]

Then those people have money, which is the minoirty of parents.
With the economy the way it is. Parents aren't going to shell out $400 (system & games) for a Xmas present. No matter what the system can do.

I don't think early sales of the system are the issue. Any system is going to sell every unit you can manufacture for at least the first six months. The early adopters are going to pick it up no matter what.

It's what happens after supply catches up with demand that's important. That's when appeal to casuals/parents becomes important. With parents in particular, I agree that having a salesperson tell you that one system will play all of Jonny's old games, and the other one won't, could make or break the sale to the parent. It's one of those things that really helps parents rationalize their purchase.

 

[Prospero]

Does anyone have a link to the Wedbrush report cited in the original article? Google's not helping me out here.

 

[sonycowboy]

Xbox had a pretty good launch, considering the time when the devs first got their first devkits (around E3 2000) ... heck even the devkits containing the NV20 didn't come till around christmas. And they still had a 15-20 game launch containing titles such as Amped, PGR, Dead or Alive 3, Oddworld, Halo and more. They will have a lot better opportunity to get a better launch this time too.

If they do (or more correctly, when they do), it will be because of mostly first party titles. Most publishers are not going to fully commit to the next generation until the PS3 launches. The XBoxNext will get some great games, but there will be a distinct lack of "next generation" 3rd party support. Although, I don't agree with him much, MP also expects muted support, mostly for publishers financial reasons.

"Given our belief that there will not be much software available to support a 2005 console launch, we do not expect any manufacturer launching a console next year to enjoy much success in the marketplace. We therefore conclude that notwithstanding the potential for a console launch in 2005, the current cycle will not end at that time."

"In addition to the time risk, the higher cost of next generation console games will make it unlikelythat many games will be produced. At present, most companies limit total game development costs (including the acquisition of intellectual property rights) to approximately 20% of revenues. Activision (the third largest publisher) has an annual R&D budget of approximately $140 million, and produces approximately 45 games at an average cost of around $3 million each. If the company were to decide to develop games for an average cost of $8 million, it could only justify developing 15 – 20 games per year. We think that a more likely result in the launch year will be the development of 3 – 5 next generation games carrying the $8 million price tag, and the development of another 30 – 35 games for the current generation consoles. We therefore expect the U.S. publishers to produce only a handful of games for the next generation consoles, and note that if there are few games available, hardware sales will likely be very slow to materialize."

 

[Deku Tree]

This news makes me sad.
I want bkwds compatibility in my consoles.

 

[element]

It's what happens after supply catches up with demand that's important. That's when appeal to casuals/parents becomes important. With parents in particular, I agree that having a salesperson tell you that one system will play all of Jonny's old games, and the other one won't, could make or break the sale to the parent. It's one of those things that really helps parents rationalize their purchase.

which is why i said these people wait until price drop to buy ANY system.

Most publishers are not going to fully commit to the next generation until the PS3 launches.

Not true in the slightest. All major US and UK publishers are already deep into next-gen development.

 

[Ristamar]

Wrong. I've seen parents drop money for their kids that would make your eyes bleed. Casuals <> poor.

I agree. Never underestimate the staggering amount of spoiled middle class kids out there.

 

[sonycowboy]

Not true in the slightest. All major US and UK publishers are already deep into next-gen development.

Not 1/10th as into next-gen development as they are into This gen development, which is my point as well as Wedbush's.

 

[Rhindle]

If they do (or more correctly, when they do), it will be because of mostly first party titles. Most publishers are not going to fully commit to the next generation until the PS3 launches. The XBoxNext will get some great games, but there will be a distinct lack of "next generation" 3rd party support. Although, I don't agree with him much, MP also expects muted support, mostly for publishers financial reasons.

That's just not true. MS has done an outstanding job of getting virtually all major publishers working on XB2 projects. If Pachter believes otherwise, he is clueless. Actually, he is pretty clueless based on most of the rubbish he usually comes out with.

Whether the launch titles will be good or fully take advantage of the hardware remains to be seen. But everyone wants to get in with some launch titles, because they will sell well regardless.

 

[human5892]

I don't think Dopey was saying that Xenon will be successful because people were wrong about Xbox Live and 56k. I think he was saying exactly what you turned around and said in response (ie. you can't draw those kinds of conclusions). I just took it further. People say the PS2 or Gameboy lines were/are successful because of BC when there are far too many variables to draw any conclusions of the sort. So how can you say Xbox will fail if it lacks BC?

Oh, I see what you were trying to say now. Sorry it took me a while to get it.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to say that the Xbox will definitively fail without BC (and in fact, I think I specifically stated earlier that such an assertion is not my intention); rather, my point was that comparing past unrelated instances where the doubters were wrong to this one is futile. I would also agree, as you said, that the GBA's/PS2's successes can obviously not be boiled down to BC; however, I would also argue that BC was a factor in their success...much like some say the lack of it could be a factor in a possible sales disappointment for the Xbox2.