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[Lime]

So I'm going to regret this later, but here goes.

I'm growing really weary of the division this sort of thing seems to bring. Right now the hot topic in gaming is women in games and the industry. I don't think anyone rational is denying women get treated like shit, and that's awful. However, whenever something along the lines of that "myth, men are bullied just as much. truth: women get it way worse" thing pops up, it annoys me.

As much as I think Phis Fish is an absolute tosser, that guy was absolutely decimated by the public. And I can't remember the guy who took the blame for nerfing CoD's sniper, but people threatened (disturbingly frequently) to rape his wife and daughter, force him to watch, and murder him.

Hell, I'm a no name Let's Player and someone threatened me over an LP of The Walking Dead.

My point is that violent and vitriolic nonsense do affect every gender in the gaming industry, and absolutely no one is safe from threats of rape and murder. I don't see many articles popping up about how men are treated shitty in the industry from fans or co workers but I think it's pretty obvious it happens. But then the general consensus is that men don't need protecting, so I guess it's cool to ignore them. Sexism can cut both ways.

I don't think this is overwhelmingly tilted towards men or women. I think it's tilted towards easily accessible personalities in a massive and growing industry. As more women become reachable through social media and become public faces with public personas, more women are going to get treated the way the men have. it isn't right, it isn't fair, but it isn't because they're women. It's because people are horrible and they are easy to reach now.

That's at least on the fan level. As for workplace harassment, that's just close quarters scumbaggery which thankfully has a better chance of being dealt with. Even if people in the office won't listen, the court of public opinion can be pretty powerful.

When I see the "but men are harassed too!" I think of the white dude telling black people in the US that they too are harassed by Cops.

Also,

Marleigh Norton was attending a technical lecture on software architecture in video games last year when the presenter, an established game designer in his late 30s, clicked on a PowerPoint slide innocuously entitled “Dialogue Trees in CRPGs.” She found herself staring at a close-up of a voluptuous female buttocks.

For Norton, cofounder of and game developer at the Cambridge-based Green Door Labs, the slide and snickers that rippled through the predominantly male audience were reminders of the “boys locker room” mentality that permeates much of the video game business.

“If you are a woman in the industry, there are all these little signals that you are not part of the club, that this is not your tribe,” said Norton, 35. “After time, it wears you down.”

“Because conventions, where designers are celebrated, are unsafe places for me,” wrote Filamena Young, a game designer and co-owner of Machine Age Productions in Orange County, Calif. “Really. I’ve been groped.”

“Because I got blank stares when I asked why a female soldier in a game I worked on looked like a porn star,” responded Caryn Vaino, a user interface designer in Seattle

“There is a sense that we need to cater to a certain demographic,” said Kaufman, who recently left Nuukster for another local game company, “and it seems to be based on these very antiquated attitudes towards women.”

As a gamer, Cail said, she has seen female players harassed, hit on, and asked to show their breasts via webcams. As a student, Cail said, she has had a few encounters with other students skeptical of her technical abilities because she is a woman.

from
Link to article

And:

from: http://blog.pricecharting.com/2012/09/emilyami-sexism-in-video-games-study.html

 

[remnant]

Probably when we actually start doing something about it rather than deciding to ignore it because, "it's hard".

WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO!? Do you have an answer?

Anyone have an idea, besides writing on gaming editorials?

 

[Dragonborn]

Holy jeezus.


I highly recommend reading the article and there's a LOT of reading to do between just the myth/reality parts. There's also conclusions to each, and there's a lot to talk about.

Something that stood out to me in Case Study 1 was this:

"A male friend of mine that develops AAA games told me, "When a woman criticizes me, it goes to a different part of my brain than when a man on my team does. I get defensive really quickly. I’m trying to get better about it." I don’t think his is a unique experience."

To the males: Are you trying to get better about it? Have you felt that way?

I don't actively feel that way but I guess, when I think about it, yea sometimes I have felt that way. As in I'll feel more defensive if it's a women telling me I'm wrong or I'll place more weight on a man's opinion. The thing is, I realize this, and correct myself to remove the bias. Essentially telling myself, wait a second, why am I thinking like this.

I understand many men feel may feel this way because that's just the way society has taught many of us to feel. When you're told something form the moment you're born, it becomes engraved in your mind. The key, for me, was understanding that I have bias in the the first place, and actively choosing to ignore it. Now, I was never disrepectful towards women or anything like that (it was more something that just crossed my mind), but learning to ignore the bias and get over that has, I feel, made me better for it.

 

[Netherscourge]

This is such a stupid idea on so many levels, I mean there's barely any fucking point posting anything on the internet at that point if it makes practically all your personal information readily available to every tom dick and harry that wants to find it.

Exactly my point.

It's the "this is why we can't have nice things" argument.

The sociopaths are ruining everything for the rest of us, but for the greater good, it may be necessary.

 

[Mesoian]

Bring him to court for what?

These articles and threads are becoming almost masturbatory. We believe everything in the article(especially the death threats for some reason) and then proclaim how we would never do it. and how it makes us sick blah blah blah.

Okay, you're a great person, but what exactly should we be doing? Talk about it? Haven't we been talking about it for the last four years? Ban people from SM sites? They will just make troll accounts

Yo, texting someone their address randomly and saying "You're next" is a THREAT. I don't care if it's a joke or what, you go to the police and have them investigate that shit.

WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO!? Do you have an answer?

Anyone have an idea, besides writing on gaming editorials?

No, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THESE DISCUSSIONS. So we can come up with a solution together. Because you know what doesn't solve the problem? Clasping your hands over your eyes and saying, "man can't we just talk about video games again?"

 

[Silky]

WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO!? Do you have an answer?

Anyone have an idea, besides writing on gaming editorials?

So speaking up and getting this information out to people is wrong, now?

There are grown ass men and women, of all shapes and sizes, threatening to kill, rape--they're harassing. We--people-- shouldn't back down from a threat, right?

Educate yourself.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO!? Do you have an answer?

Anyone have an idea, besides writing on gaming editorials?

Listening is important

 

[Einbroch]

While I appreciate the fact that this article is written and bringing important topics to light, you know what? Nothing will happen. Nothing will change.

We're all going to post about how awful it is. We're all going to say that things should change. And twenty years later we'll be saying the same thing. There will always be people who post these hateful things. There will always be trolls, sexists, racists, and bigots. With the nature of the internet this will NEVER go away. Ever. Even if people knew the name and address of the people who posted these things, this will exist.

I guess the grand point I'm making is that these articles are pointless except for a place to vent for the author (which doesn't make them pointless if it makes the author feel better, I suppose).

That may be cold, but I just don't see what this accomplishes, at least on the internet side of things.

 

[Petrae]

Remove internet anonymity and show everyone who posts a comment or sends an Email's real name, address and phone #.

I guarantee that 90% of the horrible comments would end immediately.

The other 10% would be in jail or served subpoenas by the end of the week.

Imagine when a vigilante decides to straight-up murder someone for posting a comment that he/she didn't agree with. Give your personal info and you're easy to find. Sure, that might dissuade poor comments, but it also opens the door to far, far worse acts from someone else who gets pissed off at what was said.

 

[Frank_Tha_Noob]

Ever heard of not feeding the trolls? Most people just say things to offend people and get a reaction. All this article shows is that harassment is effective.

 

[EscoBlades]

WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO!? Do you have an answer?

Anyone have an idea, besides writing on gaming editorials?

Listen genuinely, and educate yourself. The rest will flow from there.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Ever heard of not feeding the trolls? Most people just say things to offend people and get a reaction. All this article shows is that harassment is effective.

I guess they'd get less trouble if they stopped being women.

 

[Orayn]

WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO!? Do you have an answer?

Anyone have an idea, besides writing on gaming editorials?

Drawing attention to the problem is doing something. If this article causes a single person to reconsider the issue, think "Wow, that's pretty fucked up," and speak up when they encounter it instead of remaining silent, then it's done some good.

 

[besada]

WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO!? Do you have an answer?

Anyone have an idea, besides writing on gaming editorials?

Sure. Condemn it when you see it happening. Make it clear to your friends and fellow gamers that you don't think it's okay to be sexist or misogynist. If you're playing online and some starts ripping on a female player, speak up. Demand that the people who make your games treat the issue seriously. Demand that the cons that want your business take the matter seriously.

 

[SJS]

My point is that violent and vitriolic nonsense do affect every gender in the gaming industry, and absolutely no one is safe from threats of rape and murder. I don't see many articles popping up about how men are treated shitty in the industry from fans or co workers but I think it's pretty obvious it happens. But then the general consensus is that men don't need protecting, so I guess it's cool to ignore them. Sexism can cut both ways.

I don't think this is overwhelmingly tilted towards men or women. I think it's tilted towards easily accessible personalities in a massive and growing industry. As more women become reachable through social media and become public faces with public personas, more women are going to get treated the way the men have. it isn't right, it isn't fair, but it isn't because they're women. It's because people are horrible and they are easy to reach now.

That's at least on the fan level. As for workplace harassment, that's just close quarters scumbaggery which thankfully has a better chance of being dealt with. Even if people in the office won't listen, the court of public opinion can be pretty powerful.

Thank you. You're probably going to have GAF all over you in a few minutes, as you expected, but I want to let you know that the more people like you speak the truth, the more we can get back to the more general issue of harassment in the gaming community.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

As I see it, all these cases are work for the police.

 

[Terrified]

Hell, it's tangential but that wankfest over Chloe Dykstra in that stupid XBO/PS4 thread was a fucking embarrassment and reeked of boys club.

I'm really glad I wasn't the only person who felt like that...

 

[obauma]

"The Myth: Everyone in the games industry experiences harassment. Women are just too sensitive about it.

The Reality: If you are a woman in the industry with a critical opinion, you will get a disproportional amount of criticism, hostility, and scrutiny compared to men."

I'd really like to see this proven as something that is generally true rather than something that happens sometimes.

Yeah I thought that point was a bit weak, BUT I guess that men are hardly ever confronted with harassment that is directed at their gender specifically - sexual harassment, rape threats, comments on looks and stuff like that.

I'm sure however that famous male game developers get their share of death threats and insults too...

 

[The Librarian]

While I appreciate the fact that this article is written and bringing important topics to light, you know what? Nothing will happen. Nothing will change.

We're all going to post about how awful it is. We're all going to say that things should change. And twenty years later we'll be saying the same thing. There will always be people who post these hateful things. There will always be trolls, sexists, racists, and bigots. With the nature of the internet this will NEVER go away. Ever. Even if people knew the name and address of the people who posted these things, this will exist.

I guess the grand point I'm making is that these articles are pointless except for a place to vent for the author (which doesn't make them pointless if it makes the author feel better, I suppose).

That may be cold, but I just don't see what this accomplishes, at least on the internet side of things.

Uh. So we shouldn't say anything at all? You're advocating ignoring the problem even if you agree with it.

Sorry, but that's not the right thing to do.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Use your privilege (assuming you are a white male) to speak up and help. Women routinely get ignored, their opinions stuffed away - but you can help. Use your privilege against this kind of shit.

 

[Pseudo judo]

This type of behavior gets excepted because the men and the women do not take the steps to do something about it. I don't mean file a complaint, though that should be done, I mean treating the men who do this like the pieces of shit they are. Treat them with open disdain, segregate them from the group and if it means having a couple of the guys taking the time to pull the man in question aside to have an aggressive conversation about it then so be it. Stop treating the issue with kid gloves.

There's a reason why racism isn't openly tolerated in the vast majority of work places and it's not because you'll get reported to human resources. It's because no one excepts that shit and if you can't learn to spit your hate elsewhere sooner or later some one's going to bloody your nose.

This is how it is where I work. I don't understand why the gaming industry seems to be a misogynists wet dream.

 

[PSOreo]

My recommendation to you, and others who don't feel the subject is worth discussing, is to not post in the thread. This thread is about sexism and misogyny in the video game industry. If that discussion doesn't interest you, don't post.

I've seriously written this poorly. I do think its worth discussing and I would just love to see something more effective. Awareness and discussion is great but its always with people who already recognise its wrong and a problem. How do we reach out to those more ignorant?

 

[Gaz_RB]

Later that day, someone texted me my address — telling me they’d "See me when I least expected it."

I want to choke whoever would send something like this over anything, let alone fucking video games.

 

[Jetfire]

Crazy shit like that needs to be forwarded to low enforcement asap. Let them know shit like that ain't play play.

Reports like these are very rarely taken seriously by law enforcement or police. "Hello, I'm a woman and an anonymous person on the internet threatened me, I have no identifying information because it's the fucking internet" is a pretty damn fast way for them to not give your problems a second thought. Not their division? Not their problem.

 

[Silky]

While I appreciate the fact that this article is written and bringing important topics to light, you know what? Nothing will happen. Nothing will change.

We're all going to post about how awful it is. We're all going to say that things should change. And twenty years later we'll be saying the same thing. There will always be people who post these hateful things. There will always be trolls, sexists, racists, and bigots. With the nature of the internet this will NEVER go away. Ever. Even if people knew the name and address of the people who posted these things, this will exist.

I guess the grand point I'm making is that these articles are pointless except for a place to vent for the author (which doesn't make them pointless if it makes the author feel better, I suppose).

That may be cold, but I just don't see what this accomplishes, at least on the internet side of things.

What about outside of the internet? Like there's a thread right now who snatched someone's glasses off because their insecurities are making them think that it's 'ruining a culture' or some bullshit. What about those people, who are harassed outside of the internet? You don't think this shit overall is worth talking about?

 

[SeanTSC]

Jesus, I mean, hate is expected on the internet, guys aren't exempt from it. Personally, I've gotten my share of hate, some of it pretty vile, and I find the key is ignoring it (I find, for example, that Reddit and Twitter are ripe for that kind of stuff), but I can say, I've never gotten anything near as bad as what that email said. That's just disturbing. Furthermore, it's easy for me to brush it off since it's not as common. I imagine getting a constant stream of nasty comments would eventually break one down a bit.

Still, look at all the hate people like Gies attract within the community. It's not all entirely about Gender, but there's no denying it's effect.

Guys definitely aren't exempt from it. I've made the mistake of sharing personal "health issues" and my living situation before on other forums and got harassment and hate for it all for years on end. I'm glad that it doesn't happen on GAF, but anywhere else, if someone has ammunition they can use against you they will use it and they will use it relentlessly. Doubly so if it's personal or a sensitive topic.

I've been on the receiving end of some incredibly hate-filled garbage just for not being totally "normal" to others. I've also been e-stalked for months before - guys aren't immune to that either. At a certain point it also does get really hard to ignore and just brush off. That kind of abuse does take its toll and it really wears you down.

The internet can be an extremely shitty place.

 

[Netherscourge]

Imagine when a vigilante decides to straight-up murder someone for posting a comment that he/she didn't agree with. Give your personal info and you're easy to find. Sure, that might dissuade poor comments, but it also opens the door to far, far worse acts from someone else who gets pissed off at what was said.

You're only looking at the one angle - the other angle is that NOBODY would post on the internet anymore.

General, real-life productivity would increase 1000% across the board!

(I kid...)

I'm playing extreme Devil's Advocate here. The point I'm trying to make is that it's anonymity that's empowering these psychos. Take away their anonymity and/or their ABILITY to post anything on the internet and suddenly these horrible comments disappear.

 

[cerulily]

These articles don't help other than to begin the blame game, just a quick look and its the usual "4chan and reddit" users being the sole people to blame. Its the horrible internet culture that thrives through anonymity and "freedom of speech".

Big mis-interpretation here. The reason 4chan and reddit usually come up is because they're extremely popular for being A) huge majority of men and B) relatively anonymous.

The reason it is often cited is because it is a perfect case study of "what do men actually think, and what are their values when allowed to express them without ridicule". And this isn't a "ALL MEN" thing, i am simply exemplifying that the perpetrators of such juvenile attacks are usually men.

People don't ACTUALLY comment negatively just because they can. They do it because that's who they are, and are simply unchained from social consequence.

 

[Anjin M]

As the father of a young daughter, I am continually appalled by the world I am raising her in. I want to share my love of gaming with her, but I know that I would be throwing her to a bunch of absolute monsters if I do so. This is not okay and I will do everything in my power, however limited it may be, to change this.

 

[mentallyinept]

This stuff is textbook harassment and the offenders should be prosecuted:

http://www.ncsl.org/research/telecommunications-and-information-technology/cyberstalking-and-cyberharassment-laws.aspx

 

[GotEmRunnin]

I want to see change I'm just not optimistic about it happening.

Well the first step to changing it, is openly admitting and talking about the problem. I'm not saying scream about how wrong it is. We all know it's wrong, but scream with a solution. The problem in my opinion is the very fact that some gamers gives dev's a pass because their game's are good or they are uncomfortable with the subject matter and simply want the discussion to go away.

Admit, Discuss and Resolve.

 

[Einbroch]

Uh. So we shouldn't say anything at all? You're advocating ignoring the problem even if you agree with it.

Sorry, but that's not the right thing to do.

I'm saying doing it the way it's been going is not working. She's even admitted in the article that it's going backwards.

The way it's been presented is not working. That's what I'm saying.

 

[shadowkat]

I nearly closed it for the fact she used "trigger warning". That is so overused and incorrectly that it isn't even funny. Its diluting its original meaning with regards to serious mental problems. Get out of here.
Anyway, how many articles do we need to read about this very topic before people realise that this sadly isn't something is ever going to change any time soon? These articles don't help other than to begin the blame game, just a quick look and its the usual "4chan and reddit" users being the sole people to blame. Its the horrible internet culture that thrives through anonymity and "freedom of speech". People aren't ignoring its just so big that it would be impossible to know where to begin. The main point as well that this isn't a problem that is exclusive to the online world.

Edit: I've clearly worded this wrong. I want to see change I'm just not optimistic about it happening.

And if you don't talk about then change won't happen.

 

[Krejlooc]

I know this goes on - you'd have to be dumb to deny it - but it honestly blows my mind. I can't imagine seeing people speaking to me like that on a daily basis. It's truthfully shocking.

 

[The Librarian]

Thank you. You're probably going to have GAF all over you in a few minutes, as you expected, but I want to let you know that the more people like you speak the truth, the more we can get back to the more general issue of harassment in the gaming community.

Saying "men experience harassment too" is a way of undercutting the importance of the issue. Sure, men do experience harassment online (it's the nature of the internet), but it's *worse* for women.

 

[The_Almighty_Swan]

Sadly nothing probably will be done until something really severe or drastic happens because of all of this kind of harassment. Then all the companies will hop on board into nipping it in the butt.

 

[Lime]

Thank you. You're probably going to have GAF all over you in a few minutes, as you expected, but I want to let you know that the more people like you speak the truth, the more we can get back to the more general issue of harassment in the gaming community.

"let's move the discussion of minority-specific harassment to a discussion that doesn't actually address minority-specific harassment"

 

[Mesoian]

Okay, you're a great person, but what exactly should we be doing? Talk about it? Haven't we been talking about it for the last four years? Ban people from SM sites? They will just make troll accounts

I never addressed this, so...

Remember the kid in northern Wales who got arrested after sending joking threats to one of his classmates? That needs to start happening. There's a very real line between internet ribbing and actual very real threats and we need to start making examples out of people to show that this sort of thing isn't okay. Whoever texted this woman should be locked up, full stop, and his face plastered all over the news to tell people that you can't use the internet as your consequence-less hate machine.

This stuff is textbook harassment and the offenders should be prosecuted:

http://www.ncsl.org/research/telecommunications-and-information-technology/cyberstalking-and-cyberharassment-laws.aspx

Ab-So-Lutely.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

I never said "it's hard". Awareness is great but it only goes so far. Its just not something that is going to happen overnight. People who would want to see change can only change their own behaviour and educate themselves. Others do not want to hear it. I'm saying its deeply seeded and the people that say things like that aren't going to read it and think "wow I should change".

So we should sweep everything under the rug then? Just let it go on because people want to be sexist and racist, right? Rather than try to point out why they're being ignorant, why they're wrong?

 

[The Librarian]

I'm saying doing it the way it's been going is not working. She's even admitted in the article that it's going backwards.

The way it's been presented is not working. That's what I'm saying.

Then what do we do? Just not talk about it and hope that it goes away?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I've noticed that "Yeah but where are your solutions?" seems to be a common refrain to shut down all discussion about things that make people uncomfortable to talk about.

Is this a concerted thing or did people individually realize it's the best way to keep the status quo going?

 

[cerulily]

Guys definitely aren't exempt from it. I've made the mistake of sharing personal "health issues" and my living situation before on other forums and got harassment and hate for it all for years on end. I'm glad that it doesn't happen on GAF, but anywhere else, if someone has ammunition they can use against you they will use it and they will use it relentlessly. Doubly so if it's personal or a sensitive topic.

I've been on the receiving end of some incredibly hate-filled garbage just for not being totally "normal" to others. I've also been e-stalked for months before - guys aren't immune to that either. At a certain point it also does get really hard to ignore and just brush off. That kind of abuse does take its toll and it really wears you down.

The internet can be an extremely shitty place.

The difference here being that having health issues isn't usually a demographic issue. Everyone of every gender/race/creed has health issues. They're picking on the weak. But simply existing as a normal person shouldn't qualify the same vitriol unless you were viewed as fundamentally lesser.

 

[Perspicacity]

WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO!? Do you have an answer?

Anyone have an idea, besides writing on gaming editorials?

It isn't something we can change in a day, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth changing. The point of editorials is to change minds and cause us all to be more empathetic. In your personal life you shouldn't tolerate friends being shitty misogynists, you should think about how your words or actions might affect another person, you should support people who are being harassed.

 

[Silky]

I'm saying doing it the way it's been going is not working. She's even admitted in the article that it's going backwards.

The way it's been presented is not working. That's what I'm saying.

Until there's a much more viable option to use, this is the best option.

 

[remnant]

Yo, texting someone their address randomly and saying "You're next" is a THREAT. I don't care if it's a joke or what, you go to the police and have them investigate that shit.

Sure, and they will tell you to buy a gun or mace. No court is going to chase an anonymous person on the internet who sent a text.

No, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THESE DISCUSSIONS. So we can come up with a solution together. Because you know what doesn't solve the problem? Clasping your hands over your eyes and saying, "man can't we just talk about video games again?"

So speaking up and getting this information out to people is wrong, now?

There are grown ass men and women, of all shapes and sizes, threatening to kill, rape--they're harassing. We--people-- shouldn't back down from a threat, right?

When did I say "let's talk about games" or "back down from a threat"

Sure, we can talk about it. We've been talking about it for 4 years. It's accomplished nothing. The problem is still essentially the same, and no on has offered a real solution or advanced the dialogue.

 

[Kinyou]

When I see the "but men are harassed too!" I think of the white dude telling black people in the US that they too are harassed by Cops.

I can sort of agree in the sense that harassment seems to be a general problem in the industry. Women seem to get targeted more, but probably also because they pose an easier target for these assholes. I mean, the goal isn't that woman just receive the same amount of harassment as men, right? It's that all sorts of harassment stops.

 

[The_Almighty_Swan]

Saying "men experience harassment too" is a way of undercutting the importance of the issue. Sure, men do experience harassment online (it's the nature of the internet), but it's *worse* for women.

*worse* is an understatement.... It's a cold world for women in regards to online harassment.

 

[SmokyDave]

My recommendation to you, and others who don't feel the subject is worth discussing, is to not post in the thread. This thread is about sexism and misogyny in the video game industry. If that discussion doesn't interest you, don't post.

My issue is that this discussion really would interest me, if only we could move past this first bit. I'm quite OK with assuming that the games industry is a hotbed of rampant misogyny, I won't question the idea that it's an utterly toxic environment for women. My problem is, with that issue identified, what happens next?

I don't think I've read any of these articles that even attempt to offer a solution. Should dev studios have a mandatory quota on women to ensure their workforce has equal representation? Should studios that fail to protect their female employees be fined? Should women of the industry organise a strike? Boycott a certain game / publisher felt to be the most egregious offender?

I don't have the fucking foggiest, and so I'd love to read some solutions, and the potential pitfalls to those solutions. Rather than giving me empty fluff like this:

When you wonder why women aren't rushing to fix that balance, remember this is the fucking emotional and even physical minefield they're signing themselves up for. Growing a thicker skin isn't the answer, nor is it a proper response. Listening, and making the industry safer for the existence of visible women is the best, and only, way forward.

So, I've listened and I'm convinced. How do we 'make the industry safer'? How can I, as a consumer, assist in this matter?

Regardless, I understand that this issue isn't being dissected and a discussed solely for my interest, so I'll keep my grumbling largely to myself as suggested.

 

[Gaz_RB]

If we had solutions, we wouldn't need to discuss it...
Why shut down communications because no solutions can yet be found?

 

[x-Lundz-x]

The e-mails / posts in the OP. Those are not coming from other developers right? Just dumbass people on the internet? Right???