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Non-Americans, who do you hate more: "Americans" or "Jews"?

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Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
Che said:
Did you know that the Israeli army sealed the exits so that the massacre would be more efficient? Did you know that the murderer who organized the whole thing was Ariel Sharon (Prime minister of Israel now)? How the hell do they expect from the Palestinians to negotiate with this monster? He's the true terrorist not the Palestinians. At least the Palestinians haven't massacred 3,500 people in one single day. And of course many Isrealis would protest, I never said all Israelis are idiots like I'm not saying all Americans are idiots. I hate generalizations (well I almost hate them since I have many wonderful generalizations to say about the Republicans -and trust me they deserve it).


it could be argued that the Phalange had been sent into the camps to clear out PLO fighters.. and not to massacre women and children. thus israel bore an indirect responsibility..

you also cannot discount the active roles that other people had in the matter..

the truth is, its a little more complicated than what youve made it seem.. this debate can go on for quite some time, which is not an avenue im in the mood to go down..

but lets say it was planned. ariel sharon sent the Lebanese milita in there to massacre all these women and children. . i still have trouble with this line:: "He's the true terrorist not the Palestinians" .. yes, ariel sharon would be a terrorist.. but that doesnt mean we should disregard the actions of those palestinian militia groups that have gone through with their own terrorist acts.
 

milanbaros

Member?
I respect both. Jews are probably the most intelligant and successful group of people in the history of the human race and americans deserve respect for having the largest economy in the world. Aa for hate, it would be americans because i dont hate jews at all whereas the americans arrogance can sometimes piss me off.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
*considers posting 16-page research paper on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict*
 
WARCOCK said:
Well when all or most of the international community condemns certain of Isreal's actions except the United States. In my opinion, it borders "whatever they want".
Not all Jews are Israelis; not all Israelis are Jews.
 

peedi

Banned
Nerevar said:
To be fair, the Europeans mostly served as enablers for different African tribes to carve eachother up throughout the region. Most slaves were not "caught" by Europeans, but were rather captured in warfare by various African tribes and bartered to Europeans for more guns (so they could capture more slaves ... you get the cycle). In truth, tribal warfare is and was what truly has wrecked Africa. Europeans setting up arbitrary boundries and attempting to get tribes with a history of centuries of warfare to coexist in peaceful democracies certailny didn't help, but don't fall into the trap that "Africa is all Europe and the white man's fault"

Colonial rape is what befell Africa. Before the diseased dregs of Europe set foot in Africa, the land was rich in resources that Africans enjoyed the material fruits of in spades. The nonsense above is what happens when liars write the his-story that an intellectually stunted public is fed. Colonialism blurred ethnic lines, pitting once civil communities against one another, destroying defined lines of culture that sustained the people of that land for centuries. The idea that war was a provincial staple of African culture, has no firm historical ground to stand upon.

When you invade a continent, raping its women, plundering its riches, and murdering any who refused to submit to the European plague, the only outcome is strife -- the cultural, economic, and political malaise that land is now mired in.
 
quadriplegicjon said:
it could be argued that the Phalange had been sent into the camps to clear out PLO fighters.. and not to massacre women and children. thus israel bore an indirect responsibility..

you also cannot discount the active roles that other people had in the matter..

the truth is, its a little more complicated than what youve made it seem.. this debate can go on for quite some time, which is not an avenue im in the mood to go down..

but lets say it was planned. ariel sharon sent the Lebanese milita in there to massacre all these women and children. . i still have trouble with this line:: "He's the true terrorist not the Palestinians" .. yes, ariel sharon would be a terrorist.. but that doesnt mean we should disregard the actions of those palestinian militia groups that have gone through with their own terrorist acts.

How about this, both sides are typically acting assholish and typically not helping the problem with their actions?
 

peedi

Banned
King Jippo said:
Just in case some of you missed the only intelliegent post found in this thread.

What was intelligent about that post? It's disingenuous to acknowledge and fight against the remnants of slavery? Maybe it's an "intelligent" post for those living within a historical vacuum. The vestiges of the Atlantic Slave Trade, for which African-Americans are due considerable monetary reparations, not only exist, but serve to fragment this country for ALL races.
 

peedi

Banned
ConfusingJazz said:
How about this, both sides are typically acting assholish and typically not helping the problem with their actions?

Both sides have competing claims to that land, yet only one is defensible. Israel, as it now exists, is illegitimate. The idea that "both sides" are held together by some moral equivalency, is myopic and self-serving. The PLO, "terrorists," what have you have every right to resist Israel. Not only is it their right, but it is their duty.
 
peedi said:
Both sides have competing claims to that land, yet only one is defensible. Israel, as it now exists, is illegitimate. The idea that "both sides" are held together by some moral equivalency, is myopic and self-serving. The PLO, "terrorists," what have you have every right to resist Israel. Not only is it their right, but it is their duty.

Look, I know Palestine and Israel have good points and bad points. The reason Israel keeps invading is a pretty good reason, mostly because they keep getting all blown up and shit, and they have every right to try to protect themselves, but at what costs?

I also think the PLO has a right to try to protect their land, especially when it seems like once a month you hear about Israeli tanks rolling over houses and crap, but once again, at what cost?

Its murky, filled with hatred, and religion. Its a bad situation all around, and I can't really throw myself in full support of one or the other. Every time I think one of the sides has changed, I hear things like a tel aviv cafe blowing up, a tank running over a kid, or Israel not pulling the settlers.

Personally, I think the biggest mistake of the whole situation was Arafat rejecting that sweet deal he got in 99 or 2000, mostly because he wouldn't have gotten a better deal from sharon, and he reason for rejecting it wasn't very good for something as ground breaking as that.
 

AntoneM

Member
peedi said:
What was intelligent about that post? It's disingenuous to acknowledge and fight against the remnants of slavery? Maybe it's an "intelligent" post for those living within a historical vacuum. The vestiges of the Atlantic Slave Trade, for which African-Americans are due considerably monetary reparations, not only exist, but serve to fragment this country for ALL races.


if you're going to bring up reparations, then we might as well give the entire western hemisphere back to the indiginous population.
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
peedi said:
Colonial rape is what befell Africa. Before the diseased dregs of Europe set foot in Africa, the land was rich in resources that Africans enjoyed the material fruits of in spades. The nonsense above is what happens when liars write the his-story that an intellectually stunted public is fed. Colonialism blurred ethnic lines pitted once civil communities against one another, destroying defined lines of culture that sustained the people of that land for centuries. The idea that war was a provincial staple of African culture, has no firm historical ground to stand upon.

When you invade a continent, raping its women, plundering its riches, and murdering any who refused to submit to the European plague, the only outcome is strife -- the cultural, economic, and political malaise that land is mired in.

:lol

I have never seen such superfluous hyperbole in a single post. Keep fighting the good fight against western civilization Peedi. I'm glad you're every bit as intelligent and coherent in the OT forum as you are in the gaming forum. That was almost worth me taking you off my ignore list for pure entertainment value.
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
"hot hands in a dice game baby, 6 straight hours talkin bout clickty clack clickity clack, now you're lookin at the worlds rich~est ma~n, and im black kiss my black ass america!"
 
WARCOCK said:
Fine, let me exclude from my previous statement any Jews who do not embrace or staunchly support Isreal.

:rolleyes
No need to be an asshole - you're wrong. By categorizing all behind Israel's policies as Jews, you're incriminating all Jews. You're essentially saying there's no difference between Jews and Zionists, and I think that's a distiniction that must be made.

-

Peedi is Futami; don't bothering arguing with him.
 

Che

Banned
quadriplegicjon said:
it could be argued that the Phalange had been sent into the camps to clear out PLO fighters.. and not to massacre women and children. thus israel bore an indirect responsibility..

you also cannot discount the active roles that other people had in the matter..

the truth is, its a little more complicated than what youve made it seem.. this debate can go on for quite some time, which is not an avenue im in the mood to go down..

but lets say it was planned. ariel sharon sent the Lebanese milita in there to massacre all these women and children. . i still have trouble with this line:: "He's the true terrorist not the Palestinians" .. yes, ariel sharon would be a terrorist.. but that doesnt mean we should disregard the actions of those palestinian militia groups that have gone through with their own terrorist acts.

Palestinians are not terrorists. They're defending against the Israeli oppressors thus I consider every Palestinian organization like Hamas a resistance group, and so do many European countries, although not officially due to the US pressure.

Sorry but the way I see it someone is depriving you of your freedom and your legal rights, treats you like an animal, destroys your home, kills your child because it was throwing rocks against tanks etc etc you have every right to defend in any way to see fit. And yes that includes blowing up buses if it can help your cause. If you try to negotiate with monsters like Sharon and his gang you will get nowhere. Afterall the only reason these monsters decided to negotiate with the Palestinians is because Isrealis economy and morale has been destroyed by these violent acts. And since Israel always had USA's complete support they would never EVER negotiate with the Palestinians.
 

WARCOCK

Banned
Dont put words in my mouth, :p.

There obviously is a distinction, but their relevance in this specific conflict still needs to be proven.
 

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
GaimeGuy said:
*considers posting 16-page research paper on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict*

"this debate can go on for quite some time, which is not an avenue im in the mood to go down.."


:)

ConfusingJazz said:
How about this, both sides are typically acting assholish and typically not helping the problem with their actions?

ya, that i agree to.. actually. recently, things have gotten much much better..



peedi said:
Israel, as it now exists, is illegitimate.

its as legitimate as the US. even more-so, actually. the palestinians got screwed. yes, but it wasnt only by the israelis (or the US)...
 
I think my dad blames the Jews for the death of Jesus. Although it makes no sense since He was a Jew. It's like so much other racism, people don't know why they hate a race they just do because racism is contagious.
 

peedi

Banned
Nerevar said:
:lol

I have never seen such superfluous hyperbole in a single post. Keep fighting the good fight against western civilization Peedi. I'm glad you're every bit as intelligent and coherent in the OT forum as you are in the gaming forum. That was almost worth me taking you off my ignore list for pure entertainment value.

Responses like the one above are why I'm reluctant to participate in threads of this vein. So many of you are unable to examine history with a critical eye, partcularly when that history begs you to assess the very avenues your station is derived from. I was bred by Western civilization, man. What it subjected my ancestors to, my brothers, my sisters, and my children -- that is how my perspective was molded. People like you are the source of black anger.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Hmm, shit, my paper is saved on the school server. I'll email it to myself tomorrow or post it from the school tomorrow, Iguess.

I'll say this right now, though:

My presentation of the history of the conflict is pretty obviously slanted towards Israel, but, when I presented my solutions to the conflict, I was impartial, and clear on what both sides need to do.
 

Azih

Member
Of all sides in the conflict, the least rational to my mind are the settlers. The IDF are just doing their jobs and the suicide bombers, sick twisted and pathetic as they are, are just fighting back against occupiers that are protected by one of the most skilled and technologically advanced armed forces in the history of the world the only way they can.

The settlers on the other hand are occupying Palestenian land just because the Old Testament says it's theirs. Indefensible.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Azih said:
Of all sides in the conflict, the least rational to my mind are the settlers. The IDF are just doing their jobs and the suicide bombers, sick twisted and pathetic as they are, are just fighting back against occupiers that are protected by one of the most skilled and technologically advanced armed forces in the history of the world the only way they can.

The settlers on the other hand are occupying Palestenian land just because the Old Testament says it's theirs. Indefensible.

I touch on this in my paper, but both the settlers and the militants kind of have the same idea. Both want to completely eradicate the other group. (Although there are settlers and militants who simply want revenge)
 
I think I like americans in general, with some exceptions of course. I don't like american bureaucracy, administration, imperialistic views and 'jesusland', but I think I fit in better with them than the quebequers here.

On the jews, it's hard to say. I won't take part in any Isreal debates. I know a few jews that have positively influenced music, movies and video games (Ralph Baer anyone?). Jews are more often than not, very educated people and I've heard many interpretation that the Jewish faith is supposed to set an example for other religions. I've experienced first hand some arrogant and self-boasting on their part, usually about how succesful they are and which schools they went to, adding that little bit of detail to make them seem more important and on top of other people. Not that all jewish people are like this, but having seen it and being told by other people on these accounts, I can vouch that it's more than just a myth. And yes, the cockiness and boasting (they probably even do it without noticing) does get on people's nerves. I've been told that people disliked jews because they lived in closed communities composed of only jews and that they "looked down" (or atleast, people got that impression) on people outside their religion. Added with the fact that some jews are very succesful people, this can easily create jealousy amongst the other people. I think their religion is extremely well built and preserved, and this of course, almost to a fault.

And for the guy that said that the creation of a jewish state went hand in hand with jewish people as a whole : I happen to know a number of jews that are against the creation of Isreal (one documentary that looked at the poor palastinian situation was actually directed by a jewish man).
 

peedi

Banned
Azih said:
The settlers on the other hand are occupying Palestenian land just because the Old Testament says it's theirs. Indefensible.

They're occupying the land because they're racist and unrepentantly greedy. They care no more about the "Old Testament" than Bush does the word of God.
 

Azih

Member
GaimeGuy said:
I touch on this in my paper, but both the settlers and the militants kind of have the same idea. Both want to completely eradicate the other group. (Although there are settlers and militants who simply want revenge)

Sure there is a hard core of millitants that do want to eradicate Israel. But the primary motivation is the occupation. Eradicate the occupation and the millitants will wither to a shadow of their current strength. On the other hand the ONLY motivation for the settlers is religous zeal. Eradicate the millitants and the settlement activity will accelarate.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Time to add fuel to the fire with my paper! (I apologize for the formating, but I don't feel like going through and correcting everything to match what it is in the text file)


The Leibowitz family had just left the bar mitzvah party of one of their cousins in Jerusalem on June 17, 2003. Seven-year-old Noam, loved by staff and students alike at school, missed her 2nd grade graduation for the party. On that fateful June night, as the Leibowitzes’ car sped down the Trans-Israel Highway, six gunshots were fired through its windshield by a member of the Islamic Jihad, fatally wounding Noam. She died almost instantly (“Palestinian terrorist...”). Meanwhile, Israeli tanks marched into Palestinian-occupied areas of the West Bank and tore down settlements. This brutality is what the Palestinian-Israeli conflict has degraded to. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict has done far too much damage. In order to end this conflict, the international community must intervene and help mediate the peace process. Israel and the Palestinian Authority must cooperatively devise a solution while also attacking the extremists on both sides who are unwilling to compromise. Above all else, Israel and the Palestinian Authority must let neither increased tensions nor terrorism deter them from their course towards peace.
In order to understand the ongoing conflict between Palestinians and Israelis, one must
first learn about the past relations between these two peoples. During the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the land of Palestine, which is modern-day Israel, a colony of the Ottoman Empire, consisted of a diverse population numbering between three hundred and four hundred thousand people, the majority of which were followers of Islam (Peters and Katz). A 1920 historical study conducted by Britain cites that, contrary to what they had believed, the majority of Palestinians were not Arabs, but merely Arabic-speaking. The Palestinians were, in fact, of mixed race (“Welcome to...”).

But this ethnically diverse and relatively peaceful territory was about to be shaken up by an influx of Arabs and Jews. During the 1890s, Muslim Arabs and Jews began migrating to Palestine to reclaim their holy land (“Brief History...;” “Arab-Israeli Conflict”). As a result of these religious movements, Palestine’s population doubled to over seven hundred thousand people by 1914 (Peters and Katz). Arabs and Jews continued to migrate to Palestine after it was colonized by Britain following World War I all the way through World War II. Over this period of time, the Arab immigrants became associated with the natural Palestinian ethnicity, due to the common religion of Islam shared between the two. The majority of Palestinians today are actually Arabs whose ancestors migrated to Palestine during the early 20th century. These Arabs found themselves competing with the Jewish immigrants.
After World War I, Britain decided to thank the Muslim and Jewish world for helping the Allies defeat the Ottoman Empire. In the 1920s, Britain, through the Hussein-McMahon correspondence, promised the formation of a new Arab-Palestinian state in Palestine. A few years later, Britain promised a Jewish state in the land of Palestine in the Balfour Declaration (“Learn About...”). Reacting to these two conflicting statements by Britain, Arab and Jewish inhabitants of Palestine fought with each other over land for the next twenty years. In 1929, a group of Arab settlers invaded the Jewish city of Hebron, killing dozens, and forcing survivors to evacuate (“Learn About...”). Skirmishes between the Palestinians and Jews were common in Jerusalem, particularly near the Western Wall. Violence continued through the Second World War.

After World War II ended, Britain decided to deliver on its promise to establish Palestinian and Jewish states. The entire globe was in shock from the actions of Nazi Germany during the Holocaust, and was, for the most part, sympathetic towards the establishment of a Jewish nation. Therefore, on November 29th, 1947, the United Nations passed Resolution 181, which called for the partition of the colony of Palestine into the nation of Israel and the nation of Palestine (“The Arab...”). The nation of Palestine was to consist of the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, as well as a portion of land directly adjacent and south of the Golan Heights, a mountain range in Syria. Jerusalem was to be a neutral zone shared by Israel and Palestine, serving as a capital for both nations. Jews accepted the United Nations’ plan, while the Arab world rejected it and prepared for war, as they did not want the Jews to have any of Palestine. Both the Jewish and Arab immigrants were rather extreme in their desires to control all of Palestine, but the Jews were willing to accept any part of Palestine in the aftermath of the Holocaust. Between April and December of 1948, over seven hundred thousand Palestinians abandoned their homes in Israel, despite repeated promises from David Ben-Gurion, who was set to become the first Israeli Prime Minister, that they would not be harmed (“The Arab...”). After the Palestinians retreated to the surrounding Arab nations, the Arab armies thought that they could easily pass through and crush the Israeli forces. A holy war was on the horizon.

On May 14th, 1948, the nation of Israel declared its independence. Less than twenty-four hours later, Palestinian insurgents and the nations of Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt invaded Israel (“Basic Facts...”). During the war, Egypt took over the Gaza Strip, and Syria, the Palestinian land directly south of the Golan Heights, to use both as fronts for their troops invading Israel. In addition, Jordan took over the West Bank. Syria was also attempting to cut Israel off from Lake Kinneret, Israel’s sole water source. Israel took over the Syrian occupied land, driving Syrian forces back towards the Golan Heights, while also defeating the forces of the other five Arab nations that were invading Israel (“Learn About...”). In 1949, Israel signed armistice agreements with its enemies in a stunning victory (“Basic Facts...”). Now, the land that was to be the new Palestine, according to the U.N.’s partition plan, was under the occupation of Jordan, Israel, and Egypt. The seven hundred thousand Palestinian refugees who had fled Israel during 1947 and 1948 had nowhere to return to after the war. They were not welcomed in any of the Arab countries, except Jordan, which changed its name from Trans-Jordan, following the capture of the West Bank. Jordan was the only country which admitted the Palestinian refugees as citizens. Most of these Palestinian refugees settled in camps inside of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. These areas became Palestinian communities, but they were generally plagued with substandard housing, poor education, and no health benefits. Psychological and physical health remained below average in Palestinian communities for decades; only recently have conditions begun to improve. Despite the majority of Palestine being captured by the Arab nations in the War of 1948, and the choice of the Palestinian refugees to abandon their homes in Israel in 1948, the Palestinians, requiring a scapegoat for the misfortune of their lives, channeled their anger towards those whom they had competed with for the land of Palestine during the entire first half of the 20th century: The Jews of Israel (“The Arab...”).
The Palestinians became increasingly angry with Israel throughout the 1950s and expressed this anger passionately. Already frustrated by the failure of the Arab coalition to destroy Israel, the Palestinians became increasingly hostile following the passing the Absentee Property Law in Israel. This law gave Israel permission to confiscate the property of the Palestinian refugees who had fled Israel in 1948 and who had chosen to not return (“Learn About...”). Several Palestinians resorted to terrorism as a way to express their frustrations. From 1949 to 1956, over 1300 Israeli civilians were killed in these attacks (“The Arab...”). Yasser Arafat emerged as a power in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict when he started up Fatah, a terrorist faction devoted to the destruction of the Jews and the liberation of Palestine, in 1959 (“Basic Facts...”).

The misfortune of the Palestinians is not the only reason for Palestinian violence towards Israel. Israeli aggression during the Suez War and the 6-Day War also contributed to the conflict. When Egypt prevented Israeli traders from crossing the Suez Canal in 1956, Israel initiated a war against Egypt. The Israeli military took over the Sinai Peninsula, crossed into Egypt, and surrounded Cairo itself. Israel retreated and returned the Sinai Peninsula in exchange for the end of Egypt’s blockade on Israel’s ships at the request of the United Nations (“Learn About...”). A decade later, in early 1967, all six countries of the Arab coalition from Israel’s first war in 1948 began building up their military forces in preparation for an invasion of Israel on June 6th. However, Israeli spies learned of the coalition’s plans, and on the night of June 5th, 1967, Israel launched a full-scale aerial assault on Egypt, whose forces made up more than half of the entire Arab coalition. Iraq, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia pulled their troops back, and Israel easily defeated Jordan and Syria, along with the crippled Egyptian army, in six days. In addition to defeating its enemies, Israel also captured the entire Sinai Peninsula, the Golan Heights, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip (“Arab-Israeli Conflict”). Palestinians who inhabited the Gaza Strip and the West Bank now found themselves under the occupation of their enemy. From their perspective, the Suez War and the Six-Day War were two wars in which Israel fired the first shot and over-aggressively fought its enemies, instituting a sense of fear in the Palestinians.
The Arab world further backed the Palestinian Liberation Organization following these wars. The Palestinian Liberation Organization was founded during the 1964 Arab summit in Cairo. The PLO serves as an umbrella organization for six Palestinian groups, the largest of which is Yasser Arafat’s Fatah, and quickly became the official political representation of the Palestinian people (“Basic Facts...”). Yasser Arafat was elected the chairman of the PLO in 1969. Following Yasser Arafat’s election, the PLO relocated to Lebanon. After it relocated, the PLO embarked on a series of terrorist attacks on the Israelis, including the infamous slaying of eleven members of Israel’s team at the 1972 Munich Olympics (“International Olympic...”).

Some progress was made towards peace between the PLO and Israel with the signing of a cease-fire in 1981. However, the PLO continued to attack Israel with terrorism. On May 9, 1982, one hundred Katyusha rockets were fired from southern Lebanon into Israel. A month later, the PLO severely wounded Israel’s Ambassador to the United Kingdom (“The Arab...”). Israel responded to these attacks by invading Lebanon in order to destroy the Palestinian Liberation Organization. By July, Israel had laid siege to Beirut and forced the PLO to withdraw from Lebanon and relocate in Tunisia. Israel occupied Beirut until the end of 1983. Three years later, in 1985, Israel bombed the PLO’s headquarters in Tunisia, forcing the PLO to scatter across nine Arab nations.
Israel, unfortunately, did not consider how people would react to its attacks on the PLO. After Israel occupied Beirut and bombed the PLO’s headquarters, the Palestinians located inside of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip became afraid that Israel’s next target would be them. This fear exploded when four Palestinians were killed in a car accident with an Israeli on December 8, 1987. Hundreds of Palestinians turned on Israeli troops stationed in the Gaza Strip’s largest refugee camp of Jabalya, and demonstrations and riots spread like wildfire throughout the Gaza Strip and the West Bank (“The Arab...”). The Intifada, which lasted for the next two years, became more and more violent over that period of time. Palestinians began protesting by throwing rocks, but soon started using Molotov bottles, then hand grenades, plastique explosives, and guns. Responding to these protests, Israel attempted to use its military force against the Palestinians by opening fire on the protesters and surrounding the Palestinian compounds with tanks. Israel even went so far as to use its bulldozers to demolish several Palestinian settlements. However, the Israeli Defense Force, trained to fight against foreign armies, had no effective answer to civil resistance in which all of its tanks and warplanes lost all significance against a scattered uprising with rocks and handguns.

The first Intifada brought the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to the forefront of international attention. In 1988, the United States opened discussions with the PLO, and the United Nations convinced Yasser Arafat to formally recognize Israel’s right to exist by having Arafat accept UN Resolution 242, which had been passed following the 6-Day War as an outline for establishing peace in the Middle East. The withdrawal of Jordan from the West Bank gave the Palestinians slightly more power in the international world. Furthermore, the fall of the Soviet Union gave the United States the power to mediate the peace process in the Middle East. President George Bush in 1991 promised Arab leaders that, should they join the U.S. led coalition against Iraq, Washington would later turn its attention to sorting out the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Following the Gulf War, a peace conference was held in Madrid on October 30, 1991. The Madrid Peace Conference established plans to address the issues of water, arms control, environment, refugees, and economic development in the Middle East, in addition to the establishment of peace between Israel and all of its Arab neighbors, including the Palestinians (“The Arab...”). Neither side of the conflict made the first step to implement these plans because they still were weary of each other following the first Intifada. However, the Madrid Peace Conference paved way for the Oslo Accords of Yitzhak Rabin’s administration.

Yitzhak Rabin’s administration made more progress in peace talks with the Palestinians than any other Prime Minister in Israel’s history. Rabin, who had been the Israeli Defense Force’s Chief of Staff during the Six-Day War, was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1992 (“Learn About...”). His administration immediately began conducting a series of confidential peace talks with the Palestinian Liberation Organization. On August 19, 1993 the Oslo Accords were initialized. The Declaration of Principles, the document which described the process for peace in the Oslo Accords, created a framework for areas of negotiation, and set outlines for a rapid hand-over of Gaza and Jericho to Palestinian self-rule. They also declared that, immediately following the implementation of the Gaza-Jericho agreement, responsibilities in education and culture, health, welfare, taxation, and tourism in these areas would be handled by the Palestinian government. A formal agreement on the Oslo Accords was signed by Rabin and Yasser Arafat on the White House’s garden on September 13, 1993 (“The Arab...”).
Two years later, the Oslo II Accords were signed on September 28, 1995 (“The Arab...”). The Interim Agreement, one of the two provisions of the Oslo II Accords, declared that elections would take place in the West Bank and Gaza Strip for a new Palestinian Authority. It also detailed the self-government arrangements in these areas. This self-governing body would be headed by Yasser Arafat, who was elected Chairman of the Palestinian Authority in January of 1996. Furthermore, the Interim Agreement stated that Israel would pull out its forces from Palestinian populated areas and allow a Palestinian police force, under the Palestinian Authority, maintain public order. The second part of the Oslo II Accords stated that, no later than May, 1996, talks would commence concerning all remaining issues between Palestine and Israel, including: refugees, borders, Jerusalem, security, settlements, and relations. According to the Oslo II Accords, these were to be implemented by no later than May 1999 (“Basic Facts...”).
The Oslo Accords never succeeded because of several reasons. The assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by an Israeli extremist in November 1995 delayed the process of implementing the Oslo Accords. In addition, the Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and other terrorist groups continued to suicide bomb Israel. Yasser Arafat made no effort to discourage the Palestinian people from participating in these acts of violence, and also refused to hand known terrorists over to Israeli authorities. The Palestinian Authority also refused to remove a section in its charter which called for the destruction of Israel. Also, Israel moved its tanks to the borders of the West Bank and Gaza Strip at several tense moments of conflict, and did not enforce the free passage routes, which were transportation zones for Palestinians crossing between the West Bank and Gaza Strip (“Learn About...”).

Despite the failure of the Oslo Accords, Benjamin Netanyahu, who was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1996, continued negotiations with Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority. In 1998, Israel and the PA passed the Wye Agreement, which stated that Israel would relinquish 13 percent of its Har Homa settlement in Jerusalem and give it to the Palestinians. In exchange, Arafat promised to take preventative measures against terrorist attacks on Israel, to arrest and punish all those involved in terrorist activity, and to collect all illegal weapons from the Palestinians. However, Arafat never followed up on his commitments. Arafat did not make any efforts to collect illegal weapons from the Palestinian people, nor did he crack down on known terrorists. In fact, he started acting on his own without communicating with the Israeli government, going so far as to unilaterally declare his intentions to create an independent Palestinian State later that year. In response to Arafat’s actions, Israel halted the transfer of land which it had promised Arafat in the Wye Agreement (“Welcome to...”). Arafat’s actions following the Wye Agreement effectively killed any trust and support the Israelis held towards him. His reputation as the “original terrorist” followed him until his death.
Despite repeated failures in peace talks, Yasser Arafat and Ehud Barak, who was elected Israel’s Prime Minister in 1999, met at Camp David with President Bill Clinton in July, 2000, for the Camp David II Peace Summit. Barak offered Arafat ninety-one percent of the West Bank and half of Jerusalem to the Palestinians, which would become the new independent nation of Palestine, but Yasser Arafat turned down Barak’s offer. Arafat demanded that all of Jerusalem be given to Palestine, and that every single Palestinian refugee was unconditionally granted the right to return to his or her home in Israel, and that the Israeli government would provide compensation for all four million Palestinian refugees (“Arab-Israeli Conflict”). Needless to say, Camp David II ended in failure.

After the failures of the Oslo Accords, the Wye Agreement, and Camp David II, the Palestinians had lost all confidence that they would ever get their own nation. On September 28th, 2000, Israeli Opposition Leader Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, the site of the Old Temple, the holiest place in Judaism. Within a mile of the Temple Mount is the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the holiest place in Islam. Though no Israeli came near the Al-Aqsa mosque, the failures of three consecutive peace talks and a crumbling Palestinian economy drove the Palestinians to riot in Jerusalem. They threw rocks and shouted at the IDF, and, once again, the violence spread throughout Israel (“Brief History...”). The Second Intifada, which is still going on in Israel today, had begun.

The Second Intifada has proven to be longer and much more violent than the First Intifada. On October 7, 2000, a Palestinian mob demolished Joseph’s Tomb, a Jewish holy site in the West Bank. Then, on October 12, two Israeli reservists who mistakenly wandered into the Palestinian city of Ramallah were lynched live on television. The violence continued to flare, and included a revival of suicide bombings on buses, in restaurants, shopping malls, and even schools. Members of the Tanzim, Yasser Arafat’s personal militia, have participated in several attacks using firebombs, automatic weapons, and grenades. The sight of children with rocks against Israeli tanks is a popular image of the Second Intifada, even though it ignores the Palestinians armed with explosives and automatic weapons behind the children (“The Arab...”). Since September of 2000, eighteen thousand Palestinian and Israeli civilians have been injured in this conflict, and over fifteen hundred Israelis and Palestinians have died, thirteen hundred of them being civilian casualties. Now, Israel has forcefully reoccupied nearly all Palestinian areas which were evacuated as a part of the Oslo Peace Process (“Learn About...”). In addition, Israel has begun construction of a wall to be used as a border between Israel and the future Palestine. However, this wall is being built on Palestinian territory; about seven percent of the Palestinian Authority’s land will end up being on Israel’s side of the wall, along with fifteen thousand Palestinians (“Israel frees...”).
Despite the violence of the Second Intifada, there are reasons to be hopeful for the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict. First of all, Yasser Arafat’s death in November, 2004, and the election of Mahmoud Abbas as his successor as President of the Palestinian Authority, is great for the peace process. Arafat was extremely popular with the Palestinians, but he had repeatedly shown that he is untrustworthy and unwilling to compromise for peace. Since Abbas became President of the PA, Israel and the PA have signed a cease-fire, and the Egyptian and Jordanian ambassadors to Israel have returned to Israel (“Palestinian, Israeli...”). On February 20th, Israel’s Cabinet approved the withdrawal of all Israelis from Gaza and the West Bank, to be completed by July 20th (“Israeli Cabinet...;” “Israel frees...”). In addition, Israel freed five hundred Palestinian prisoners as a good-will gesture on February 21st, and plans to release four hundred more prisoners over the next three months (“Israel frees...”). There are plenty of issues which are yet to be resolved, but Israel and the Palestinian Authority seem to be making progress.
In order for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to end, several criteria must be met. First, the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government must bilaterally discuss all courses of action. Second, efforts must be made to destroy the militant groups in the area. Third, Israeli and Palestinian extremists must both be discredited. Fourth, the development of a Palestinian state must be aided by several countries. This Palestinian state, however, should not take away from Israel’s right to exist. Finally, the Israelis and the Palestinians must be persistent in their peace talks.

Israel and the Palestinian Authority must cooperate with each other if the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is to be resolved. They must continue the peace talks that they were participating in during the month of February. Israel absolutely needs to halt construction of The Wall immediately. They cannot act unilaterally on a topic as important as the establishment of borders between Palestine and Israel, because it is, arguably, the most important aspect of the conflict. If necessary, these bilateral discussions can be mediated by other countries. Perhaps Ariel Sharon and Mahmoud Abbas could meet for the Oslo Accords III or Camp David III.
In addition to bilaterally discussing all aspects of the conflict, Israel and the Palestinian Authority must attack the Arab militant groups. The repeated suicide bombings on Israel following the Oslo Accords did nothing but increase tensions between the Palestinians and Israelis and move Israel’s military to action, often alienating the Palestinian public in the process. Furthermore, these militant groups do not want peace. One needs to only look at Hamas’ reaction to the recent cease-fire signed by Abbas and Sharon, which stated that it did not share the same stance as Abbas did on the issue. Hamas reiterated the fact that it is a group whose goal is the destruction of Israel (“Palestinian, Israeli...”). An ideal solution to this problem would be a co-operative military effort by Israel, the Palestinian Authority, and certain members of the Arab League to directly attack the headquarters and training centers of these factions. Jordan and Egypt would be two viable candidates as allies for this operation, as they are each allied with both Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

After destroying the military segments of these militant groups, an effort must be made to discredit their fanatical opinions. More often than not, the extremists’ opinions are the source of the conflict. These extremists are the Israeli settlers and the Palestinian militants. The settlers are those Jews who believe that they can do whatever they want to take over the region and claim it as theirs. They have little tolerance for Gentiles, and want to see the expansion of Israel back to and beyond its biblical borders. Many of the settlers have influence in the Knesset, Israel’s legislative body, and its. They often preach hatred towards Palestinians in the Knesset and encourage the soldiers to treat Palestinians badly. The settlers who believe that they can do whatever they want twist Judaism into something it isn't, and try to use it to justify their actions. Some Jews hold the same opinions as the settlers, but they believe that the land will eventually be delivered to them by God. In other words, they believe it is right for Judaism to spread throughout the world, and that it will happen, but that this spread will occur naturally, not by force, as the settlers resort to. Palestinian militants, like the Israeli settlers, claim that they have sole right to the land. Most of the militants hate the Jews and would rather have them all cleansed out of a Palestinian state. The Palestinian people are often controlled by the militant groups like Hamas, which show a face that Palestinians appreciate, by offering Palestinians financial aid and hospitals. By appealing to the Palestinian public, Hamas and other militant groups have a growing influence in politics, and often incite hatred towards Israelis, using even television to influence youth. Like the Jewish settlers who use Judaism to justify forceful expansion, the Palestinian militants twist Islam into justifying attacks on Israelis, and twist the idea of justice that exists in both Judaism and Islam into cold blooded revenge.
So how does one go about discrediting the opinions of these extremists? Most of these extremists see themselves as so righteous that only religious texts can change their thoughts. Rational arguments have not convinced Hamas to end its attacks on Israel, nor did they convince Yitzhak’s Rabin murderer that he was wrong to have killed Rabin. Therefore, it is necessary to sit these extremists down in front of religious experts, and have them educated on what their holy texts really say. The country of Yemen has done this exactly, with astounding results. In 2003, after capturing one hundred Al Qaeda operatives, Yemen’s president appointed an Islamic cleric, Judge Humoud Hattar, to go into the prisons and reason with the men, using his profound knowledge of Islam and considerable powers of persuasion. After months of considerable debate, Hattar and psychologists determined that the Al Qaeda operatives had seen the error of their ways and were repentant for what they had done. They were thus released from jail. Now, this process is an essential part of Yemen’s anti-terrorist operations, and these religious campaigns have enabled the government to dismantle over 90% of Al Qaeda’s network in Yemen (“Yemen Deploys...”). If these same processes are applied to the Israeli and Palestinian extremists, progress will surely be made in the efforts for peace.

The assisted development of a Palestinian state would help solve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. The Palestinians have desired their own country since the late 1800s, and not having a country has been the primary source of frustration for them. It’s even the source of frustration that led to the Second Intifada which is currently happening. To be honest, their property was taken away from them by Israel when it passed the Absentee Property Law. A Palestinian state should be made which consists of the majority of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with Jerusalem being a neutral zone shared by Israel and Palestine. The Palestinian Authority itself is already a rather efficient governing body of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which were granted autonomy by Israel after the Oslo Accords, and could serve as the government for Palestine. Israel and the Arab League should probably provide financial aid and loans to Palestine to help develop its economy. Perhaps Israel could make several donations to Palestine as good-will gestures. In order to give Palestine more resources and better passageways between Gaza and the West Bank, Egypt might want to consider donating parts of the Sinai Peninsula to Palestine, and Israel to donate a stretch of land on its southern end. These outlines for a Palestinian state would help the peace process between the Palestinians and Israelis.

The most important part of the peace process between Israel and the Palestinian Authority is to be persistent. The cease-fire which was recently signed by Ariel Sharon and Mahmoud Abbas is in considerable danger, because, according to Sharon, Israel will cease military operations in Palestinian locations in return for the halting of Palestinian violence against Israelis. A cease-fire based on an ideology such as this is susceptible to break down in failure by a few extreme acts of violence. Either the Palestinian Authority or Israel must show that it will remain committed to peace, even if the other side does not appear to hold up its end of the bargain. If attacks continued on Israel, but Israel did not react aggressively by occupying Palestinian territories, the Palestinians would have no reason to attack, because Israel would not be hostile towards them. This worked for Martin Luther King Jr., and it can work for the Israeli and Palestinians, as well. By leading by example, either the Palestinian Authority or the Israeli government can move the peace process forward. This lack of persistence is why the Oslo Accords, the Wye Agreement, and Camp David II all failed; both sides backed out of the agreements at the slightest hint of noncompliance by the other party. If Palestinians and Israelis do not let tensions interfere with the peace process, and if they are persistent in their efforts, they will eventually come to an understanding.
The Palestinian-Israeli conflict, though containing a complex and deep-seeded history, can be solved by cooperation, compromise, and an effort to remove the militant groups and violent extremists from powerful political and social positions. The Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government can work together with their allies to not only negotiate peace, but to weaken the power of those who do not want peace. In this struggle between the Palestinians and the Israelis, Noam Leibowitz’s death is only one of thousands. Noam’s little sister, Shira, is only one of several people who looked up to Noam. After Noam was buried in the Moshav Nir Etzion cemetery in Israel, her mother, Galit Leibowitz, said, “Noam always took care of Shira. Now who will take care of Noam?” If the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government do not work together to resolve this conflict, then the Palestinians and Israelis will eventually “take care” of each other. Israel and the Palestinian Authority must continue to negotiate and do whatever they can do to bring peace to the Middle East to help improve the lives of both the Palestinians and the Israelis.













Works Cited
“The Arab Israel Conflict in Maps.” The Jewish Agency for Israel. 2005. The Department for Jewish Zionist Education. 14 Feb. 2005 <http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/>.
“Arab-Israeli Conflict.” Microsoft Encarta Online Encyclopedia. 2005. 14 Feb. 2005. <http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761588322/Arab Israeli_Conflict.html>.

Arafat, Yasser. “Creating a Palestinian State Could Resolve the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.” Ed Auriana Ojeda. Greenhaven Press, 2003. Rpt. Of Yasser Arafat’s “The Palestinian Vision of Peace” speech on Feb. 3, 2002, in Ramallah. Reproduced in Opposing Viewpoints Resource Center. 14 Feb. 2005 <http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/OVRC>.
“Basic Facts You Should Know.” ADL.com. 2002. Anti-Defamation League. 14 Feb. 2005 <http://www.adl.org/Israel/advocacy/gl_indep_war.asp>.
“Brief History of the Israel-Palestine Conflict.” MidEastWeb.Org. 2005. Mid East Web. 14 Feb. 2005 <http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm>.
“International Olympic Committee - Olympic Games.” Olympic.org. 2005. IOC. 14 Feb. 2005 <http://www.olympic.org/uk/games/past/index_uk.asp?OLGT=1&OLGY=1972>.
"Israel frees 500 Palestinian prisoners." CNN.com. 2005. Cable News Network. 23 Feb. 2005 <http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/21/prisoners.freed.ap/index.html>.
"Israeli Cabinet OKs settlement withdrawals." CNN.com. 2005. Cable News Network. 23 Feb. 2005 <http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/20/cabinet.vote.ap/index.html>.
“Learn About the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict.” AFSC.org. 2004. American Friends Service Committee. 14 Feb. 2005 <http://www.afsc.org/israel palestine/learn/default.htm>.
Lochery, Neill. “Creating a Palestinian State Would Not Resolve the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.” Ed. Auriana Ojeda. Greenhaven Press, 2003. Rpt. of article from the Israel Report in 2002 with permission from original author. Reproduced in Opposing Viewpoints Resource Center. 14 Feb. 2005 <http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/OVRC>.
"The Origin of the Palestine Israel Conflict." Cactus48.com. Jews for Justice in the Middle East. 15 Feb. 2005 <http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html>.
“Palestinian, Israeli leaders announce cease-fire.” CNN.com. 2005. Cable News Network. 14 Feb. 2005 <http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/08/mideast/>.

"Palestinian terrorist murders 7 year old Israeli girl." Factsofisrael.com. 2003. 07 Mar. 2005 <http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000696.html>.
Peters, Joan, and Joseph Katz. "The Origins of the Arab Jewish Conflict Over Palestine." Eretzyisroel.org. 2001. 15 Feb. 2005 <http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/>.
“Welcome to Palestine Facts.” Palestinefacts.org. 2005. Palestine Facts. 14 Feb. 2005
<http://www.palestinefacts.org/index.php>.
“Yemen Deploys New Weapon in Fight Against Al-Qaeda: The Koran.” Lebanonwire.com. 2003. Lebanonwire. 08 Mar. 2005 <http://www.lebanonwire.com/0312/03121406TGR.asp>.
 

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
Date of Lies said:
And for the guy that said that the creation of a jewish state went hand in hand with jewish people as a whole : I happen to know a number of jews that are against the creation of Isreal (one documentary that looked at the poor palastinian situation was actually directed by a jewish man).


thats not what i said at all. i was specifically pointing out what peedi actually was implying with his comments.. it wasnt so much what he said, but the way he said it.
 

Piecake

Member
Well i dont know if this has been answered since i only read the first half of the first page, but a few questions were asked about how Jews got into the banking business and such.

Well, anyways im taking a British History course right now and we just learned that the Jews were excluded from guilds, so basically they were shut out from any kind of trade, and practically every single trade was controlled by a guild. Oh this during the 1000-1300's. The only trade, if you could call it that, that was not regulated by a guild was money-lending. Well, money lending was regulated by the king, but it was no where close as severly regulated as the other guilds so anyone could become a money lender.

So yea, basically, the Jews in England were forced to become money-lenders in England because they were excluded from any other trade.

Oh yea, one more thing, i believe the reason for this, although im not exactly sure because my prof didnt specifically state this, was that during the time period England the people were greatly concerened with foreign merchants and tried to highly regulate them. So i believe they were probably excluded from the guilds because the English were probably racist towards jews, and that the Jews were foreigners, since there was a mass influx of Jews to England because France kicked out all of their Jews.
 

FightyF

Banned
I hate neither Americans nor Jews, Zero. I hate j00!!

ahaha--erm

They're occupying the land because they're racist and unrepentantly greedy. They care no more about the "Old Testament" than Bush does the word of God.

This same problem exists within the Muslim world and has led to terrorism. Trying to use the Holy Texts to promote hate, racism, and justification for heinous crimes, when it's clear that the original teachers of both religions never did anything of the sort.

The Settlers and Terrorists need to be publically discredited...but we aren't seeing anything like that. The Israeli and Palestinian media should be painting them as the loons that they are...but for some reason both sides are given some credibility, and power in both governments.
 

Piecake

Member
Nerevar said:
The bolded point belies your ignorance of the situation. Africa has always been made up of tribes, and tribes (much like European nations) frequently are at war with one another. Most slaves were taken by African chiefs and sold to Europeans. Accept that and don't get all pissy about it. I acknowledged that much of the problem in modern day Africa is the system whereby Europeans created imaginary "borders" and then asked tribes that had been at war for centuries to create a peaceful democracy, but that doesn't change the fact that it was mostly Africans killing other Africans (Hutus and tutsis, for example? The African civil war in the Congo? There area a million other examples). Please, educate yourself before you spout such mindless drivel. As stated in my previous point, I'm not denying that Europeans took advantage of Africans, but claiming that Africa's problems today are solely a result of Europeans and white settlers is ignorant.

Thats statement is ridiculous. Europeans did not set up peaceful democracies in Africa, they set up dictatorships that built infrastures in the colonies to export African raw materials as fast as possible that Europe needed. To do this they sent in an army to subjugate the population. To control the population they gave one ethinic group beneifts, and demanded that they subjugate the other ethnic group and force them to work for the europeans and get the raw materials that they needed.

Do you want to know what this did? Africa became a mess thanks to European involvement.

Oh the period im talking about, i believe is referred to as Neo-Colonialism

If you want to know more you should read up on South Africa, and the Congo. I recommend reading King Leopold's Ghost for information of the Congo since its an easy, informative and entertaining read since its written by a journalist. At least i think its written by a journalist. I read it for a history class so the information inside is most likely accurate.
 
As an American I'd just like to state to the rest of the world. We hate you more. :D

Oh and their is ignorance on both sides for every argument in this thread. Selective history and one sided interpretations != fact.
 
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