R10Neymarfan
Member
You're honestly asking this?
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North Korea missile launch thread for September 15. 2017
- Thread starter ponpo
- Start date
You're honestly asking this?
MetalliCabombination
Member
Do you seriously not understand the difference between provocation and deterrence?
You cant keep firing empty shells at people just to tell them you can defend yourself
I understand why we musnt retaliate with force but its so weird seeing people act like this is nothing
KojiKnight
Member
It's not about North Korea protecting itself, it's about Un protecting himself and the elites. If they cared about their people, they would have fed them first.
Polishin8r
Member
Russia is doing military manuvers with bialorusia on West front while it's alies shooting practice shooting rockets on the east side your move eu/ USA....fucking geopolitical horssshiet that the regular people will pay for that want nothing to do with this
North Korea is one of those situations with no good solution. Leaving them alone will result in this, but economical sanctions aren't doing anything. Direct intervention would be a disaster for all of the innocents living in there, and million of people living in Seoul at the very least.
superdeluxe
Member
"This humanitarian disaster is epic! Biggest ever on record! Thanks!"
Blackage
Member
Yeah I don't understand NK's motive/goal. Carrying out nuclear tests and showing the world invading is ill advised is a great deterrent, but launching missiles over other countries is just some, "come at me bro!" Shit.
The former let's them exist, which is what I assumed they wanted to do, the latter could accidentally trigger events that end their regime. I have no idea what NK is thinking at this point.
The former let's them exist, which is what I assumed they wanted to do, the latter could accidentally trigger events that end their regime. I have no idea what NK is thinking at this point.
Internal politicking? Maybe a faction of elites need to shore up support or project themselves from a more immediate threat?
Hamlet Machine
Member
Maybe you have to show the world that you have the means to use those nuclear weapons you just happen to have and send them beyond your territory, to lets say, Japan or overseas?
Honestly, I don't logically see how a "little" country like North Korea would want to provoke a war where they will most likely lose... because there is clearly a great disparity between the NK arsenal and the USA..
Is there a reason why ballistic missiles are supposedly hard to shoot down? in my head intercepting hundreds of small rockets at a time seems like a bigger feat, and those defence systems are about >90%
A giant missile that has to travel hundreds of miles seems like it has a million more chances to get intercepted.
ICBMs are *really* fast.
dark_chris
Member
Are you fucking kidding me?
No really, are you?
Do you have any sense of what NK is like?
And they almost get into the upper atmosphere before they start approaching there target. Super difficult to shoot down something traveling that fast and that far.
Kittehkraken
Member
One missile can be intercepted with enough warning, but nothing is 100%. Problem is nobody will fire just one nuclear tipped ICBM in anger. It will be dozens at a single target. The likelihood of getting them all before one hits is pretty slim, if not impossible.
Short range missiles like scuds with nuclear warheads are just as dangerous if not more so for countries like South Korea. The Allies had a tough time finding them during the Iraq War because they were easily hidden in the ground clutter and constantly on the move.
In my previous years of working in China, the people there have been "protective" of North Korea, believing it to be the defensive barrier between South Korea/Japan (pro US) and China.
Granted, it's only a small handful of people I work with, but the general consensus always seem to be around this idea of North Korea being a "firewall" of some sorts.
Granted, it's only a small handful of people I work with, but the general consensus always seem to be around this idea of North Korea being a "firewall" of some sorts.
Clockwork5
Member
It's most likely internal.
This makes for a great state run media nationalistic headline.
Unless it actually caused damage on the ground, I still doubt the Japanese would do anything. Spending the money and resources necessary to deploy a military to North Korea would cripple their economy in the short term.
MonsterHunter
Member
Considering just having the Self Defense Forces is technically violating the terms, common sense disagrees with the Article
You need increased offensive capabilites to deal with increased threats to peace. The alternative gets you Ukraine'd
It's not all-or-nothing. Removing article nine would result in an unfettered increase in the build up of Japan's military. While the current administration would be more than happy to abolish the amendment (and they have attempted to do so already), the people have made it clear that they do not wish to return to a pro-war / pro-military society.
The argument that "Well, the SDF technically already violates this amendment so we should just arm up." is not only untenable, it's self-defeating. You would propose increased "offensive" abilities (which is interesting in itself--you said "offensive", not "defensive"), but increased offensive ability has never lead to stabilization or decreased tensions. In fact, it's the "increased offensive capabilities" of NK that is causing this very problem.
The answer is not "a bigger gun", it's how can we and the other nations of the world convince NK to abandon its current policies for ones that benefits its people and its neighbors.
You think on it and let us know what you come up with.
8-Bit Sunset
Banned
You really need to educate yourself a little on the matter before typing out that nonsense!
How about mass famine, murder and concentration camps for starters.
SaviourMK2
Member
I don't like advocating war and death. But seriously, China, Russia and the US need to fucking bring down a heavy hammer on Kim before innocent people in South Korea, Japan or anyone of ours on the West coast are murdered.
Its only a matter of time before they actually do it or one of those pieces of shit fails and falls into civilian territory.
Its only a matter of time before they actually do it or one of those pieces of shit fails and falls into civilian territory.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
Wow, this was really sincere. Apology accepted.
ImaLemming
Member
PatThePassive
Member
I talked to my cousin for about 2 hours tonight about this, he was stationed in South Korea 2 years ago, now he's in DC and he got me a little more spooked about this whole thing.
Hes convinced China is near being fed up with NK and something about Japans current leader declaring he will override the pacifist constitution (in 2020 if NK is still around?) if NK continues on with these tests has him on edge, but hes certain Un is legitimately ready to push the button.
With Russia using the Ukraine to sell NK missiles I'm worried Russia wants the US to stretch themselves thin to allow for Russia to flex on NATO and annex some Baltic states.
Those saying NK just wants to defend themselves remember that military officer who fell asleep in a meeting with Un so the officer was stood in front of a Anti-aircraft gun and shot as an example.
Hes convinced China is near being fed up with NK and something about Japans current leader declaring he will override the pacifist constitution (in 2020 if NK is still around?) if NK continues on with these tests has him on edge, but hes certain Un is legitimately ready to push the button.
With Russia using the Ukraine to sell NK missiles I'm worried Russia wants the US to stretch themselves thin to allow for Russia to flex on NATO and annex some Baltic states.
Those saying NK just wants to defend themselves remember that military officer who fell asleep in a meeting with Un so the officer was stood in front of a Anti-aircraft gun and shot as an example.
Randomizer123454444
Member
They are means to attack other countries as NK has repeatedly said. We have every right to defend ourselves by making sure the guy who has gun pointed at us gets disarmed.
TheDrizzlerJ11
Member
Thing is bringing down the hammer means South Korea probably gets fuuuuuuucked. I feel like both SK and Japan need to ask us to attack. They're the most at risk in every scenario, should be up to them.
And this is by no means WWIII, nobody is defending NK at this point. This is just a continuation of that Korean War we never finished.
Green Yoshi
Member
Do you think only democratic countries should have the right to defend itself?
Why is it so hard for Americans to view things from a different perspective? Iraq and Libya were attacked by the USA, North Korea is part of the "Axis of Evil". So what do you expect them to do? I'm not defending the regime, but I understand why they are not giving up on their nuclear arsenal.
They don't need nukes to defend themselves, they can do that just fine by holding Seoul hostage with artillery. The only reason they want them is to get a seat at the big boys table. This has nothing to do with deterrence.
MarkMclovin
Member
I don't agree that the 'only solution is war'. That's a typical response coming from someone that has no idea what they're talking about.
However, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, and to also put in simple terms, do you realise the position NK knows it's in, and the hate it has for certain countries? It has repeatedly made threats towards the US, SK JPN etc but at the same time expresses it's 'if you can so can we' stance on becoming a nuclear power. It doesn't look good does it?
Yes, I think all countries should have the right to defend itself, but at the same time, not be a country full of famine, slavery of it's own people, hold such hate for the US and it's allies and have a fucking nutter as a leader. They could be spending all this time, money and research in something that actually benefits the country better... you know that doesn't involving mass killings of it's own people.
From what, itself?
dragonelite
Member
That is how the communist party also sees it.
No non western or western allied country want western military bases at its border. Especially USA ones they will probably smuggle weapons in your country and start a rebellion.
And replace the government with a pro western one.
saying "i'm not defending them" while defending them having nuclear weapons :/ dude.
VivaciousSoul
Member
I don't know that there's any rule that says that a country has the right to defend itself. Or there is but that doesn't stop any other country from doing whatever it will also. There is only self interest. Nations will do whatever. If getting nukes and then stopping you from getting them puts my state in the strongest position, no amount of name calling and saying that's not fair is going to do anything. A country will never feel bad about interfering with another's ability to harm it.
Nukes are the big game now. But I don't think for a second that if there were ever to be developed an airtight seal against them that US would think oh no Russia and China can no longer nuke us and that's not fair it doesn't allow them to defend against our overwhelmingly powerful military force.
Nukes are the big game now. But I don't think for a second that if there were ever to be developed an airtight seal against them that US would think oh no Russia and China can no longer nuke us and that's not fair it doesn't allow them to defend against our overwhelmingly powerful military force.
mavericktopgun
Member
Stupid as hell.
Can you argue that not doing anything is still a humanitarian disaster on an epic scale? But something no-one has the direct ramifications of except for NK itself?
Defend itself from who? No one is at all interested in this country. They literally have made up a bogeyman (previous war aside).
They use this bogeyman to get concessions and keep power.
Green Yoshi
Member
I only explained why they have nuclear weapons. Stalin was one of the worst persons of the last century, still you can explain why he developed and tested nuclear weapons.
vonStirlitz
Unconfirmed Member
I dont understand why the PRC continue to support NK.
It brings nothing but blowback. It associates China with those fuckwits, at a tine when Xi is trying to assume regional leadership, it makes Xi look weak, because he cant reign in his boy, it leads to missile defense in SK and Japan, which weakens the PRCs security position, and it may lead to increased reliance on the US when Xi is trying to wean East Asia off the West.
Really, Xi has got no fucking cajones. Incapable of taking any realistic strategic decisions and just letting it slide. No way he, or the PRC, are mature enough for any global leadership role until they sort this mess out.
It brings nothing but blowback. It associates China with those fuckwits, at a tine when Xi is trying to assume regional leadership, it makes Xi look weak, because he cant reign in his boy, it leads to missile defense in SK and Japan, which weakens the PRCs security position, and it may lead to increased reliance on the US when Xi is trying to wean East Asia off the West.
Really, Xi has got no fucking cajones. Incapable of taking any realistic strategic decisions and just letting it slide. No way he, or the PRC, are mature enough for any global leadership role until they sort this mess out.
There's a huge difference between taking the situation seriously and acting as if this is the last straw that will lead to nuclear war. NK has killed service men from other countries and we haven't entered a nuclear apocalypse. The "THIS IS IT!" weekly panic isn't productive or comforting to those at risk.
Not even Trump and his clowns have given up on every alternative outside of military action. Why don't you guys contribute to the diplomacy discussion instead of jumping straight to wondering how many people will die? Or maybe explain why you think the repeated statements from key members of his administration are lies and that they'll be sending the bombers over any minute now.
hydragonwarrior
Member
They just want attention... again. IN this case it's their retaliation against more sanctions. At some point we need to address them with talks.
They ARE on the winning end of any sort of negotiation because that's just how it is. The best deal in my opinion is to reduce sanctions and basically give them a free pass to being a horrible dictatorship with a terrible human rights record.
In any case, they also aren't dumb. They won't start a war but we've allowed them to push the envelope in being intimidating.
What's concerning is that any deal we give them, they may accept, but if they want more they can simply start shooting into the ocean again. But really what else can be done? With your allies so close to NK, it's hard to get away from them.
What may help would be for China and Russia to tell them to stop.
R10Neymarfan
Member
Russia and China would never because the country is a buffer zone. The regime is a useful idiot to them. But I have to imagine there is a point where they would lose if NK playing chicken with the world.