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[QaaQer]

These are really different situations. Stigs game consistently missed milestones in development due to constant reboots and after Sony had invested an ungodly amount of money Stig had very little to show for the investment when the time came to check in because he had retooled the game so many times it just burnt through all the funding. This is what insiders have stated happened here.

The Order is more of a situation of unrealistic ambition that resulted in a muddled confused final product. Going from what their intentions were with the game and whatever received on release its clear something got in the way of production. Whether it was time, management, or funding caps we will probably never know for sure. But it seems obvious that their inexperience in AAA development led to unrealistic goals and as a result they were forced to salvage a game from what they managed to complete and polish it as much as possible. We know that they recorded a much more dialogue than was used in the game. That right there should tell you a significant amount of content was left on the cutting room floor for whatever reason.

The situations are sufficiently different as to not be analogous.

Although I've not played the order, it looks to be a competently made game. What makes you think they had to 'salvage' it? Just the extra dialog? Or were there chunks missing as with Destiny?

I will never get the comparison to the first Uncharted and don't understand why people are pushing this narrative. Go back and play the game, it's still fun popcorn ride with a better story than The Order and more variety. The comparisons that do make sense are HS, Haze and Lair which were not well received by critics and gamers or showed amazing tech in HS case but were unambitious and expensive to make their money back.

UC is a tps cinematic adventure game, same with the order, and the last of us for that matter. Its kinda Sony's thing, hence the comparisons. And I wouldn't recommend playing uc1, it's janky and kinda dull.

 

[stryke]

I'm not familiar with market research firms so I've never heard of Newzoo before but regarding company rankings in terms of games revenue in 2014

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

As far as Sony's IP management goes, honestly I'd rather they continue to take risks on new IPs like the Order, Puppeteer, Journey, The Last of Us, Tearaway, Bloodborne, Rime, No Man's Sky, Little Big Planet etc than get another Killzone, God of War or Uncharted game.

This is the argument against ever touching The Order as an IP again.

if you think more money was invested in the development of The Order than Uncharted 1, The Last of Us or Little Big Planet then you are almost certainly wrong.

You really need to source that, because The Order was developed on a platform where production costs have - at least - doubled since the previous generation, and was in development for more than 5 years, which - with the possible exception of TLOU - cannot possibly be the case for those other titles.

If you're talking about failure to sell I think, as depressing as it might be, Battle Royale, Puppeteer and Tearaway all performed even worse at the same point in their lifetime.

And all of those titles development costs combined don't come close to the money that was clearly spent on The Order.

 

[Mory Dunz]

guess the order is all the rage again

 

[RexNovis]

Although I've not played the order, it looks to be a competently made game. What makes you think they had to 'salvage' it? Just the extra dialog? Or were there chunks missing as with Destiny?.

Well its a combination of the known missing dialogue, disjointedness in the story/transitions in the game and the intentions the dev had for the game. Like I said I had the chance to speak to them at length after a SIGGRAPH presentation and from what they were telling me then about where they wanted to o with the game and the sorts of things they wanted to do it's pretty clear to me that what we got were parts of their intended whole. A big part of it is based on personal conversations with them so take it as you will. Like I said I don't claim to be an insider with any insight on development or anything like that but i think its a reasonable deduction given what I know.

 

[gtj1092]

I'm not familiar with market research firms so I've never heard of Newzoo before but regarding company rankings in terms of games revenue in 2014

Xbox revenue looks like it includes everything in the division but not sure. Last I looked MS includes Surface Pro sales and the like with the Xbox revenues but it may have been different in 2014 and 2013.

This is the argument against ever touching The Order as an IP again.



You really need to source that, because The Order was developed on a platform where production costs have - at least - doubled since the previous generation, and was in development for more than 5 years, which - with the possible exception of TLOU - cannot possibly be the case for those other titles.



And all of those titles development costs combined don't come close to the money that was clearly spent on The Order.

You ask for sources then make up facts.




What's with the constant hate of the Order? It's not the first bad game ever. Don't know if its bad or not never played it. Seems you can't even say its name with out people streaming in to tell you why they hate it.

 

[QaaQer]

Well its a combination of the known missing dialogue, disjointedness in the story/transitions in the game and the intentions the dev had for the game. Like I said I had the chance to speak to them at length after a SIGGRAPH presentation and from what they were telling me then about where they wanted to o with the game and the sorts of things they wanted to do it's pretty clear to me that what we got were parts of their intended whole. A big part of it is based on personal conversations with them so take it as you will. Like I said I don't claim to be an insider with any insight on development or anything like that but i think its a reasonable deduction given what I know.

Cheers.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

You ask for sources then make up facts.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...n-development-is-eight-to-ten-times-more-work
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-11-13-epic-expects-next-gen-game-costs-to-double
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-04-03-next-gen-consoles-mean-increased-development-costs

What's with the constant hate of the Order? It's not the first bad game ever. Don't know if its bad or not never played it. Seems you can't even say its name with out people streaming in to tell you why they hate it.

I don't give a shit about The Order, but it was received poorly both critically and commercially.
It needs a stronger defence as to WHY it should have more money thrown at it - money that would otherwise be going to someone elses attempt at creating a viable game IP than "well *I* liked it, screw the haters"

EDIT:
Because let's take a hypothetical example here;
5 years ago both From and RAD were pitching similarly themed games about killing monsters in a Victorian setting.
Sony passed on Bloodborne and greenlit The Order.
If this had happened and you knew of it, would you still be sat here going "oh go on, give RAD another chance, I bet they can fundamentally improve every aspect of the game in a sequel done in a much shorter timeline on lower budget!"

 

[RexNovis]

This is the argument against ever touching The Order as an IP again.



You really need to source that, because The Order was developed on a platform where production costs have - at least - doubled since the previous generation, and was in development for more than 5 years, which - with the possible exception of TLOU - cannot possibly be the case for those other titles.



And all of those titles development costs combined don't come close to the money that was clearly spent on The Order.

Up until the last two years of development RAD was a VERY small studio working almost exclusively on their engine which they plan to use for multiple games. Development costs during those first few years would have been very minimal given their staff. This idea that The Order was such an incredibly expensive game to make seems to stem solely from either the misrepresented 5 years of development line or because the graphics were so impressive. SO many just seem to accept this idea that the Order was incredibly expensive when historically Sony has been very conservative with development budgets compared to industry norms. You claim so much money was "clearly sent on the Order" prove it. How do you know what the budget was. Why is it inconceivable that it would be inline with Sony's other recent blockbuster new IPs? If the only ground you have to stand on for this is on time in development than I'm sorry that doesnt prove anything thanks the front loaded engine work.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...n-development-is-eight-to-ten-times-more-work
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-11-13-epic-expects-next-gen-game-costs-to-double
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-04-03-next-gen-consoles-mean-increased-development-costs

These are all in reference to third party development. Thats an entirely different beast from first party development where budgets are traditionally much smaller. Furthermore these are predictions from industry figures not factual development figures. Testaments from devs are that development on PS4 has proven faster and easier than PS3 thus potentially helping to decrease budget inflation.

I don't give a shit about The Order, but it was received poorly both critically and commercially.

And yet your compelled to post in regards to its worthiness of investment? Hmmmm. Yes this game was received poorly but their tech was not. Some believe they should get a chance to deliver on the potential of their engine. You don't. But that doesnt some how invalidate everyone else's thoughts to the contrary on the matter.

It needs a stronger defence as to WHY it should have more money thrown at it - money that would otherwise be going to someone elses attempt at creating a viable game IP than "well *I* liked it, screw the haters"

EDIT:
Because let's take a hypothetical example here;
5 years ago both From and RAD were pitching similarly themed games about killing monsters in a Victorian setting.
Sony passed on Bloodborne and greenlit The Order.
If this had happened and you knew of it, would you still be sat here going "oh go on, give RAD another chance, I bet they can fundamentally improve every aspect of the game in a sequel done in a much shorter timeline on lower budget!"

OK lets count the ways shall we

1. Development of a second game will be cheaper thanks to shortened development time and the already completed engine. As such it would almost certainly take less investment than a different brand new IP of similar potential quality while also potentially generating more ROI for further IP investments.
   
2. Sony invested in the development of their engine and presumably had the intention of utilizing that engine in future development
   
3. Most importantly some see the story, setting and technology as having incredible potential and should it be capitalized on Sony could reap the benefits as they have with so many other IPs
   
4. Sony wants to secure a major franchise in the same genre as the Order
   
5. Regardless of your opinions on the game there is a market for a sequel and Sony can budget accordingly to appeal to that market while minimizing potential for loss.

Your hypothetical is ridiculous in that it assumes Sony would turn down funding a game from an established studio with which they have a previously successful relationship. That is, frankly, laughable. Sony likely turn down and greenlight projects every day. Funding new IPs is risky. We have already said as much. Arguing that they should ignore the investment theyve already made with a studio and their engine because further investment might encroach on "the next Bloodborne" is so fucking off-base its not even in the ballpark of logical. This is not a zero sum game. They have already invested and they have potential to see increased ROI with further development. That's a completely different situation than "so there were these two games pitched at the same time."

 

[Percy]

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...n-development-is-eight-to-ten-times-more-work
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-11-13-epic-expects-next-gen-game-costs-to-double
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-04-03-next-gen-consoles-mean-increased-development-costs

Those aren't so much facts as general expectations from a couple of companies with no connection to the game in question though. You were asked about sources for what you were saying about the development costs of The Order which you were presenting as factual statements rather than assumptions.

I don't give a shit about The Order,

Clearly not the case.

What's with the constant hate of the Order? It's not the first bad game ever. Don't know if its bad or not never played it. Seems you can't even say its name with out people streaming in to tell you why they hate it.

This is the thing that I'm having trouble understanding also. I rented it out expecting the worst gaming experience I'd ever had to listen to many on here, but what I got was a game that was just really badly paced and mediocre. I've played a hundred games I'd describe similarly in the past couple of years alone, but The Order seems to attract hatred like nothing I've seen in all my years of gaming.

I mean, I could understand people who paid full price for the game at launch being pissed off, sure, but the sheer rage at it's existence even from people who haven't played it alone has been pretty shocking in all honesty.

 

[Navid]

http://1u88jj3r4db2x4txp44yqfj1.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Newzoo_Top10_Public_Companies_Game_Revenues_FY2014_v2.png

Surprised at how seemingly smaller Ubisoft is compared to EA/Activision... Considering their massive studios and the amount of titles they put out I had assumed they were more along the same ballpark.

 

[gtj1092]

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...n-development-is-eight-to-ten-times-more-work
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-11-13-epic-expects-next-gen-game-costs-to-double
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-04-03-next-gen-consoles-mean-increased-development-costs




I don't give a shit about The Order, but it was received poorly both critically and commercially.
It needs a stronger defence as to WHY it should have more money thrown at it - money that would otherwise be going to someone elses attempt at creating a viable game IP than "well *I* liked it, screw the haters"

EDIT:
Because let's take a hypothetical example here;
5 years ago both From and RAD were pitching similarly themed games about killing monsters in a Victorian setting.
Sony passed on Bloodborne and greenlit The Order.
If this had happened and you knew of it, would you still be sat here going "oh go on, give RAD another chance, I bet they can fundamentally improve every aspect of the game in a sequel done in a much shorter timeline on lower budget!"

Your links won't work for me at work but I assuming that none of them detail the cost of the order. Cost can't simply double just because for every game. I assure that NIS's cost didn't double. RAD is a small team as well.

Your hypothetical is silly to me because both games got made and if Sony passed on bloodborne I would be none the wiser. I haven't played either game so I don't care. Good and bad games get made every day. The whining about the order is just insufferable. It's just as bad as last gen when people whined about non-games on Wii ruining the industry.

 

[Endo Punk]

Most appropriate example is HS.
- Promising World
- Great Tech
- Mechanics that had a Good Foundation
- Ultimately mediocre and by the numbers

Exactly and Sony dropped that worthless IP like a sack of manure.

Better story is a subjective term. Order story and setting are great, and at least Order do not have some completely misplaced stuff like zombies in submarine in the middle of jungles. What Uncharted did differently was to include some humor (setting dictates) and add some simple platforming instead of plain storytelling parts in Order.
But still - Uncharted was very short. Very linear. And there were no point to play it again. Enemies was also not the most bright bunch. 80% of complaints to Order can be mirrored to first Uncharted.

And actually U1 sales was very poor initially. Pretty much the same situation as with Order.

Are we talking about the same game? And The Order story is good in which universe? It's the most dated/cliched story executed in the most awful way possible. And the zombie things in UC were a 100x more terrifying to confront than the misplaced werewolves in the Order.

U1 was a sleeper hit but it was a hit most assuredly. Sony even commented on its success in Europe compared the hush treatment regarding The Order. The game already dropped like a rock in UK and NA which bring in the most sales.

UC is a tps cinematic adventure game, same with the order, and the last of us for that matter. Its kinda Sony's thing, hence the comparisons. And I wouldn't recommend playing uc1, it's janky and kinda dull.

Sure I get that but how the game was received by critics and gamers the comparison makes more sense with the games Ive already mentioned than UC and TLOU.

UC1 definitely hasn't aged well but it is still more playable than TO and story worth your time even if its cliche but still executed well in comparison.

OK lets count the ways shall we

1. Development of a second game will be cheaper thanks to shortened development time and the already completed engine. As such it would almost certainly take less investment than a different brand new IP of similar potential quality while also potentially generating more ROI for further IP investments.
   
2. Sony invested in the development of their engine and presumably had the intention of utilizing that engine in future development
   
3. Most importantly some see the story, setting and technology as having incredible potential and should it be capitalized on Sony could reap the benefits as they have with so many other IPs
   
4. Sony wants to secure a major franchise in the same genre as the Order
   
5. Regardless of your opinions on the game there is a market for a sequel and Sony can budget accordingly to appeal to that market while minimizing potential for loss.

Your hypothetical is ridiculous in that it assumes Sony would turn down funding a game from an established studio with which they have a previously successful relationship. That is, frankly, laughable. Sony likely turn down and greenlight projects every day. Funding new IPs is risky. We have already said as much. Arguing that they should ignore the investment theyve already made with a studio and their engine because further investment might encroach on "the next Bloodborne" is so fucking off-base its not even in the ballpark of logical. This is not a zero sum game. They have already invested and they have potential to see increased ROI with further development. That's a completely different situation than "so there were these two games pitched at the same time."

Sony gave them a shot and likely lost money because they have yet to say anything about the sales but it's clear as day from all the sales figures we have from npd and media create that the game very likely bombed. All the good will and relationship wont change the fact that RAD let Sony down and wasted their time. So what if they built an engine, that's doesn't mean Sony need to commit to it especially from a developer who is outside of SWWS. You know another developer who built their own engine to make a game? Ninja Theory with Heavenly Sword and we all know how well their relationship turned out.

Sony have no reason to secure another TPS franchise, sure they needed it now when ND were still cooking their stuff just like Sony needed Driveclub until PD is done with GT7. When ND finally arrive on PS4 with biennial releases they will have TPS covered for good this gen. When Sony needed RAD the most they let them down even with all the time and resources in the world. We can go on about how cheap it would be to continue and potential crap but the failure is too strong with the IP just like it was with Lair, Heavenly Sword and Haze. What exactly became of those new IP's?

The Order's failure as a new IP is even more apparent next to the great success of Bloodborne which also a new IP despite similar to Souls games just like TO has similarities to Gears and Uncharted. Sony are not in a position to throw money like they were last gen. I think it's very fair that Sony give devs 1 shot and if they fail critically and commercially there really is nothing to salvage by continuing it. Sure you will make a a few people very happy but a business can't be sustained on a few people.

 

[RexNovis]

Exactly and Sony dropped that worthless IP like a sack of manure.



Are we talking about the same game? And The Order story is good in which universe? It's the most dated/cliched story executed in the most awful way possible. And the zombie things in UC were a 100x more terrifying to confront than the misplaced werewolves in the Order.

U1 was a sleeper it but it was a hit most assuredly. Sony even commented on its success in Europe compared the hush treatment regarding The Order. The game already dropped like a rock in UK and NA which bring in the most sales.



Sure I get that but how the game were received by critics and gamers the comparison makes more sense with the games Ive already mentioned than UC and TLOU.

UC1 definitely hasn't aged well but it is still more playable than TO and story worth your time even if its cliche but still executed well in comparison.



Sony gave them a shot and likely lost money because they have yet to say anything about the sales but it's clear as day from all the sales figures we have from npd and media create that the game very likely bombed. All the good will and relationship wont change the fact that RAD let Sony down and wasted their time. So what if they built an engine, that's doesn't mean Sony need to commit to it especially from a developer who is outside of SWWS. You know another developer who built their own engine to make a game? Ninja Theory with Heavenly Sword and we all know how well their relationship turned out.

Sony have no reason to secure another TPS franchise, sure they needed it now when ND were still cooking their stuff just like Sony needed Driveclub until PD is done with GT7. When ND finally arrive on PS4 with biennial releases they will have TPS covered for good this gen. When Sony needed RAD the most they let them down even with all the time and resources in the world. We can go on about how cheap it would be to continue and potential crap but the failure is too strong with the IP just like it was with Lair, Heavenly Sword and Haze. What exactly became of those new IP's?

The Order's failure as a new IP is even more apparent next to the great success of Bloodborne which also a new IP despite similar to Souls games just like TO has similarities to Gears and Uncharted. Sony are not in a position to throw money like they were last gen. I think it's very fair that Sony give devs 1 shot and if they feel critically and commercially their really is nothing to salvage by continuing it. Sure you will make a a few people very happy but a business can't be sustained on a few people.

So basically "Guys the Order is sooooo bad. It failed soooo bad. Even though I have no idea what the development budget for the game was or what Sony's intention for their tech is they cant over look how bad this failed. It failed too much and Sony doesn't forgive failures when they really fail and Devs should only get one chance because I said so. That's fair. That's how it should be."

Do you even read things before you respond to them. So far you have parroted the same "it failed so bad" argument over and over despite being repeatedly and directly addressed with counter arguments. If you have nothing to say to respond or nothing new to add then what the hell is the point of posting the exact same thing over and over? What exactly is this broken record routine meant to achieve? You cant convince people to agree with you by simply bludgeoning them over the head with the same damn words over and over again. That's not how things work.

 

[DC1]

Uncharted was very short. Very linear. And there were no point to play it again. Enemies was also not the most bright bunch. 80% of complaints to Order can be mirrored to first Uncharted.

Not sure if you remember playing Uncharted 1. The AI was pretty sophisticated at higher difficulties. The flanking and enemy team work was very impressive.

99% of all games are incredibly linear (from my butt). To put this in perspective, if its not open world, then you're looking through a straw regardless of how well decorated the walls are.

Linear concepts should never be used as throwing stone. UC1 was well paced an had a variety of paths to get from point A to B.

Lastly the writing, acting and direction (game was great) was spot on.

Really not sure what you're talking about friend.

 

[Scientificreason]

Why do so many threads turn into the order threads lol.

 

[allan-bh]

Why do so many threads turn into the order threads lol.

Games that are major bombas generates much subject.

 

[EGM1966]

ITT: gamers unironically arguing for fewer new IPs because some new IPs might suck.

Blows my mind. I mean don't get me wrong, I totally understand a publisher (Sony, MS, EA or whoever) not continuing with an IP if it doesn't pan out. The Order may well fall into this category but to argue against taking the risk in the first place... that I just don't get.

The industry needs the big publishers (and platform holders) to invest in new IP and take risks, and to build and go ahead with those that succeed while allowing natural market forces (and sometimes luck be it good or bad) weed out the failures.

 

[Eolz]

ITT: gamers unironically arguing for fewer new IPs because some new IPs might suck.

Blows my mind. I mean don't get me wrong, I totally understand a publisher (Sony, MS, EA or whoever) not continuing with an IP if it doesn't pan out. The Order may well fall into this category but to argue against taking the risk in the first place... that I just don't get.

The industry needs the big publishers (and platform holders) to invest in new IP and take risks, and to build and go ahead with those that succeed while allowing natural market forces (and sometimes luck be it good or bad) weed out the failures.

The problem isn't new IPs. The problem is when they are done just for the sake of doing new IPs.
It doesn't always make sense to make a new IP, but it did for The Order. Wouldn't make sense to make a sequel before the next generation though (where people might have forgot some points and/or might be more prone to accept possible improvements).

It also makes no sense to compare it to Uncharted 1 though.

 

[Percy]

Games that are major bombas generates much subject.

No they don't normally. How often do you see threads derailed by discussions of the failure of high profile titles like Sunset Overdrive for example? Can't say as I've seen that happen once and it seems to have done much worse than The Order by all accounts.

Exactly and Sony dropped that worthless IP like a sack of manure.

They made a Heavenly Sword animated movie last year.

You know another developer who built their own engine to make a game? Ninja Theory with Heavenly Sword and we all know how well their relationship turned out.

Must be pretty well seeing as Ninja Theory's new game is console exclusive to PS4.

Sony have no reason to secure another TPS franchise, sure they needed it now when ND were still cooking their stuff just like Sony needed Driveclub until PD is done with GT7. When ND finally arrive on PS4 with biennial releases they will have TPS covered for good this gen. When Sony needed RAD the most they let them down even with all the time and resources in the world. We can go on about how cheap it would be to continue and potential crap but the failure is too strong with the IP just like it was with Lair, Heavenly Sword and Haze. What exactly became of those new IP's?

I'm assuming you're trying to cultivate some comedy blowhard persona here, but on the offchance you're serious, it's worth pointing out that Haze was made by Ubisoft, Sony had nothing to do with it beyond exclusivity as far as I'm aware.

 

[Javin98]

Looks like we're back to talking how The Order was a critical and commercial failure.... It seems people can't let it go.

 

[sploatee]

Umm...The Order is short, incredibly narrow, has a fantastic setting and promising lore, has a cliched story with some terrible dialogue, has fantastic graphics and sound, has great voice acting and I found the shooting sections to be great fun.

I don't think it's either the worst game or the best game ever. I can't understand why it would be hated or loved, to be honest.

 

[1st Course]

Surprised at how seemingly smaller Ubisoft is compared to EA/Activision... Considering their massive studios and the amount of titles they put out I had assumed they were more along the same ballpark.

Well they don't have much going for them aside from the open world games, their other titles don't bring much.

Other than the typical console releases, Activision for example has one of the biggest PC houses in form of Blizzard while EA has a successful mobile division plus the Ultimate Team business. Ubisoft is not as diversified, only significant money makers they have are open world games.

 

[Endo Punk]

So basically "Guys the Order is sooooo bad. It failed soooo bad. Even though I have no idea what the development budget for the game was or what Sony's intention for their tech is they cant over look how bad this failed. It failed too much and Sony doesn't forgive failures when they really fail and Devs should only get one chance because I said so. That's fair. That's how it should be."

Do you even read things before you respond to them. So far you have parroted the same "it failed so bad" argument over and over despite being repeatedly and directly addressed with counter arguments. If you have nothing to say to respond or nothing new to add then what the hell is the point of posting the exact same thing over and over? What exactly is this broken record routine meant to achieve? You cant convince people to agree with you by simply bludgeoning them over the head with the same damn words over and over again. That's not how things work.

That's rich coming from a dude who keeps bringing up how "ambitious" the developers were and how much "potential" the IP has. Would be easy for me to come up with new material if the people supporting the game would stop acting like ostriches with their head in the ground. It's mind boggling that people feel a damaged and destroyed IP should get another shot then list stupid reasons to justify their position.

Yes we don't know how much the game cost but the double standards people use for continuing the IP is insane. Apparently we cannot mention budget because we don't know but we can say it would be cheaper and the potential will be realised next time around without any evidence. Even if the game cost 30-40 million and they can bring the cost down to 20 million that's still a lot of money being thrown on a terrible IP. Sony can fund a number of amazing indie titles that would play 10x better than TO.

People in support of continuing TO are completely oblivious to Sony's state in the console space. Here's a hint, they are not as financially stable as they were a decade ago when they could fund a number of financial duds.

 

[Boke1879]

Looks like we're back to talking how The Order was a critical and commercial failure.... It seems people can't let it go.

It's honestly annoying. Every time it gets mentioned people either talk about how they are glad it failed or how bad it is. People just have to move on

 

[allan-bh]

No they don't normally. How often do you see threads derailed by discussions of the failure of high profile titles like Sunset Overdrive for example? Can't say as I've seen that happen once and it seems to have done much worse than The Order by all accounts.

Expectations for The Order was much higher than Sunset Overdrive. If Quantum Break fails then will have a similar case.

 

[Percy]

Expectations for The Order was much higher than Sunset Overdrive.

Really? How so?

I'd be interesting in reading about the expectations for both titles if you have any links.

 

[allan-bh]

Really? How so?

I'd be interesting in reading about the expectations for both titles if you have any links.

Links for what ?

 

[Bgamer90]

Expectations for The Order was much higher than Sunset Overdrive. If Quantum Break fails then will have a similar case.

Really? How so?

I'd be interesting in reading about the expectations for both titles if you have any links.

I would assume that The Order being a new IP that didn't release during the busy Holiday season would cause bigger expectations.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

And yet your compelled to post in regards to its worthiness of investment? Hmmmm.

Clearly not the case.

Posting about The Orders sales in a sales thread and pointing out that it was both hugely expensive to make, has been an absolute flop commercially, and has no critical acclaim to fall back on isn't exactly running an anti-Order hate campaign guys, and if you think I am you can check your own observation bias.

 

[Kill3r7]

Well they don't have much going for them aside from the open world games, their other titles don't bring much.

Other than the typical console releases, Activision for example has one of the biggest PC houses in form of Blizzard while EA has a successful mobile division plus the Ultimate Team business. Ubisoft is not as diversified, only significant money makers they have are open world games.

This.

EA has the two biggest selling sports franchises, BF and a slew of other popular games in various genres. Activision has COD, Destiny, Skylanders and all the big money making games from Blizzard.

 

[Conduit]

Looks like we're back to talking how The Order was a critical and commercial failure.... It seems people can't let it go.

Yep! Really hope that they will eat crow someday. Have hopes in RAD. They can make it up.

 

[Boombloxer]

Some folks need to stop pushing the garbage of Uncharted 1 not selling well to justify a sequel to the Order, it's not true.

It sold 1M copies in 10 weeks and 2.6M in 2 years with an 89 MC. There was every reason to think it had promise to get bigger, which it did. Not to mention that the studio was coming off Jak, which was a top franchise for the PS2. I really wish people would take 10 seconds to actually look something up rather than spouting bullshit.

The Lair comparison is more apt. Gorgeous, short, shallow. Doesn't mean the studio is bad, they just made a mediocre game.

 

[Stampy]

So basically "Guys the Order is sooooo bad. It failed soooo bad. Even though I have no idea what the development budget for the game was or what Sony's intention for their tech is they cant over look how bad this failed. It failed too much and Sony doesn't forgive failures when they really fail and Devs should only get one chance because I said so. That's fair. That's how it should be."

Do you even read things before you respond to them. So far you have parroted the same "it failed so bad" argument over and over despite being repeatedly and directly addressed with counter arguments. If you have nothing to say to respond or nothing new to add then what the hell is the point of posting the exact same thing over and over? What exactly is this broken record routine meant to achieve? You cant convince people to agree with you by simply bludgeoning them over the head with the same damn words over and over again. That's not how things work.

Although his arguments do seem harsh, but on a personal level I have to admit that I agree with him. I also wouldn't like for Sony to finance another RAD's game. There are many other devs who can be given this opportunity and Order didn’t' really show any potential for growth. They would have to fire and hire a complete set of new writers and gameplay designers for me to be a believer again, and that isn’t happening, since the main writer is the co-founder of the company. And he is just bad. He maybe had an interesting vision, but failed so magnificently in execution. And I am saying this as someone who was really looking forward to their game, and played it with an open heart, which is now corrupted, dark and broken… :'(

 

[allan-bh]

It sold 1M copies in 10 weeks and 2.6M in 2 years with an 89 MC. There was every reason to think it had promise to get bigger, which it did. Not to mention that the studio was coming off Jak, which was a top franchise for the PS2. I really wish people would take 10 seconds to actually look something up rather than spouting bullshit.

I belive that Uncharted was pushed with bundles.

But you're right about 89 MC point. Contrary to The Order, is a good game.

 

[Fdkn]

There is a vast middle ground between Uncharted and Lair.

 

[Birgitte2004]

I would assume that The Order being a new IP that didn't release during the busy Holiday season would cause bigger expectations.

Not releasing during the holiday season would cause bigger expectations?

Really?

Usually stuff is released at the holidays because it's supposed to be the cream of the crop.

 

[slavesnyder]

If I always knew in advance if something new will be a success or failure I would be a much happier person.
Only alternative: Never risc anything and do the same stuff over and over again.

 

[Nightengale]

Sigh.

It's really frustrating to see threads turn into Order talk in this vein.

 

[Percy]

Links for what ?

Um... for wherever you got your information on expectations for these two titles?

Posting about The Orders sales in a sales thread and pointing out that it was both hugely expensive to make, has been an absolute flop commercially, and has no critical acclaim to fall back on isn't exactly running an anti-Order hate campaign guys, and if you think I am you can check your own observation bias.

You made very specific claims about how much The Order cost to develop and were asked for sources by other posters (Still waiting on those btw.) and then stated pretty definitively you don't give a shit about the game when clearly you are pretty worked up.

What does the above post have to do with any of this?

Not releasing during the holiday season would cause bigger expectations?

Really?

Usually stuff is released at the holidays because it's supposed to be the cream of the crop.

Yeah, I'd have thought titles released during a holiday period would have higher expectations placed on them tbh.

 

[dugdug]

I love that people think Sony should just give up on RAD after The Order.

Sure, let's just overlook that they put out two of the best games on the PSP, and, arguably, the second best God of War game ever (Ghost of Sparta).

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

You made very specific claims about how much The Order cost to develop and were asked for sources by other posters (Still waiting on those btw.) and then stated pretty definitively you don't give a shit about the game when clearly you are pretty worked up.

What does the above post have to do with any of this?

No, I ASKED for sources that "if you think more money was invested in the development of The Order than Uncharted 1, The Last of Us or Little Big Planet then you are almost certainly wrong." because - as I stated - current gen console development costs have risen over last generations, and I provided multiple sources that that is the case.

"Worked up".
Lol.

EDIT:

Sure, let's just overlook that they put out two of the best games on the PSP, and, arguably, the second best God of War game ever (Ghost of Sparta).

Do you want a list of shuttered studios where "let's just overlook they made x y years ago" was a valid statement?
If "But what have you done for me lately?" isn't the motto of the AAA games publisher, it should be.

 

[gtj1092]

I would assume that The Order being a new IP that didn't release during the busy Holiday season would cause bigger expectations.

So the game with out a bundle(a special edition one at that) far fewer commercials and not released during the holiday season had the bigger expectations. Ok I guess.

 

[allan-bh]

Um... for wherever you got your information on expectations for these two titles?

It's just a perception of the market. A shooter with amazing graphics versus a crazy action game like Sunset Overdrive.

It's not difficult to come to conclusion that The Order is more high profile project than Insomniac's game. This is so true that even being bad, The Order sold better.

 

[Boombloxer]

I belive that Uncharted was pushed with bundles.

But you're right about 89 MC point. Contrary to The Order, is a good game.

Not for the initial sales period it wasn't. It sold well enough to start that in the first place.

And yes, all new IP is a risk. Bioshock, Borderlands, Mass Effect, Red Dead, Gears were all new last generation to name a few. They all justified their existence with sales and MC praise.

But there's also Turning Point, Lair, Heavenly Sword, Kameo, etc that simply don't sell, and/or get panned critically. And this, no sequel. Guess which one the Order will most likely fall into? It's not hating on the game, it's reality.

People who'd rather see Sony sink money into something else are justified in that regard.

 

[qa_engineer]

Why do so many threads turn into the order threads lol.

Because the game raised the bar visually for both console and pc games, wasn't well received by most gaming outlets, but sold okay despite all of the bad reviews. There is still a lot of promise in that IP.

 

[Bgamer90]

Not releasing during the holiday season would cause bigger expectations?

Really?

Usually stuff is released at the holidays because it's supposed to be the cream of the crop.

So the game with out a bundle(a special edition one at that) far fewer commercials and not released during the holiday season had the bigger expectations. Ok I guess.

I would say that Sunset Overdrive's appeal/genre is far more niche than The Order's. This is on top of the PS4 having the bigger userbase -- especially after the Holiday season (in comparison to the Xbox One in November).

I also don't know about far fewer commercials. While I don't remember seeing many commercials just for The Order, there were many commercials that showed the game off alongside the rest of the PS4's first half of 2015 lineup.

 

[Vroadstar]

No, I ASKED for sources that "if you think more money was invested in the development of The Order than Uncharted 1, The Last of Us or Little Big Planet then you are almost certainly wrong." because - as I stated - current gen console development costs have risen over last generations, and I provided multiple sources that that is the case.

"Worked up".
Lol.

For someone who admitted doesn't give a shit about a game but kept on babbling about it, it's not so hard to agree with him.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

At some point I guess it will be possible to rationally discuss the sales, budget and expectations for The Order but apparently we're still not at that point.

"Babbling".
Lol.

 

[Nightengale]

I would say that Sunset Overdrive's appeal/genre is far more niche than The Order's. This is on top of the PS4 having the bigger userbase -- especially after the Holiday season (in comparison to the Xbox One in November).

I also don't know about far fewer commercials. While I don't remember seeing many commercials just for The Order, there were many commercials that showed the game off alongside the rest of the PS4's first half of 2015 lineup.

The appeal of SSO may be more niche, but genre? It's an open-world shooter with coop MP. In terms of being a popular genre, it's up there, imo.

It's just everything else about the game that isn't that appealing to the mainstream, unlike say. DARK AND GRITTY ZOMBIE OPEN-WORLD DYING LIGHT.