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NYT Editorial: Obama Administration "Has Lost All Credibility" (Re: NSA monitoring)

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MIMIC

Banned
We never get the perfect candidate. I can vote for someone and say "I endorse your stances on X, Y and Z and that's why I'm voting for you, but I can't endorse what you do on A and B and I wish you wouldn't". If you don't vote until you have a candidate you agree with everything on well...you won't vote

Well I'm probably not going to vote anymore (at least for a Democrat....and certainly not for a Republican).

I honestly feel betrayed. If this had come up during the debates, I'm 100% certain that Obama wouldn't have said that he would agree to something like this. The voting process feels like how bills get passed in Congress: if you want something dumb to get passed, attach it to something good and hide the bad shit underneath.

And since no one is paying attention or asking the right questions, it slips by unnoticed.
 
Well I'm probably not going to vote anymore (at least for a Democrat....and certainly not for a Republican).

I honestly feel betrayed. If this had come up during the debates, I'm 100% certain that Obama wouldn't have said that he would agree to something like this. The voting process feels like how bills get passed in Congress: if you want something dumb to get passed, attach it to something good and hide the bad shit underneath.

And since no one is paying attention or asking the right questions, it slips by unnoticed.

The way the politicians are defending it is that we need this in order to prevent terror attacks and if we don't bin laden will rise from the grave and kill us all.

I'm sorry but this isn't worth it. Politicians are using this as a power grab and shouting terrorism to silence criticism.
 
There's never been a President in history that has talked so much shit about how he's do things right and yet backtrack once he was in the chair:
There's no way you actually believe that. Like you cannot believe Obama is the first or only president to run in a positive platform where the administration doesn't live up to it. No fucking way. The likelihood is, the only reason you think that is because you're paying more attention now.
 
There's no way you actually believe that. Like you cannot believe Obama is the first or only president to run in a positive platform where the administration doesn't live up to it. No fucking way. The likelihood is, the only reason you think that is because you're paying more attention now.

Like I said no one that talked as much shit and let me add:No one that had such hype.
 
It's funny that so many just give Obama the benefit of the doubt, like, "Oh he didn't want to do this stuff but he was probably forced into it." Why?

Why is it easier for you to believe that instead of that he was just telling you what you wanted to hear so that you'd vote for him? Is it because it doesn't make you feel like a sucker?
 

~Devil Trigger~

In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
-Give govt power to do what they want

-then bitch about it, when they use it.

FISA and Patriot act were renewed like a thousand times already, nobody wants to hold they reps responsible, and ya'll keep voting for them.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Its not Spy vs Torture. We're talking about spying right now and in that area Obama is significantly worse than Bush. As PP said, Bush never assassinated American citizens abroad. Obama has.

At least not that we know of.

It's appalling and terrible, but how do we fix it? Vote Democrat and hope that their SCOTUS appointees overturn these laws piecemeal? What kind of oversight can we expect from a Congress that believes these practices are actually necessary? Do you vote Libertarian and value civil liberties over legislation that would repeal basic social safety nets that are imperative to a functioning society, as well as right for minorities, gays, and women?

I have no idea. It's beyond discouraging.
 

inm8num2

Member
culture of Washington.


They're all pawns in a sick game.
None of this surprises me. I do feel a bit sorry for people who actually thought or still think this administration is so. ehow different than its predecessors. All that has changed is the color of the tie of the guy in the oval Office. People in DC are like interchangeable parts and they all come from the same rotten tree.
 

Chiggs

Gold Member
Great read.

President Obama is a complicated man. On one hand, I don't regret voting for him at all--on either term--because the other options were simply awful. That said, this sort of behavior is inexcusable; he's now coming across as a sinister figure--nothing like the man a lot of us believed in during 2008.

It's just frustrating to see all this shit happen. Bush the reckless idiot and Obama the modern-day Nixon. Yay for the USA.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9845595-7.html

Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me

The front-running Democrat in the New Hampshire primary makes the promise in one last stump speech at an election day rally with the Facebook generation.

For one thing, under an Obama presidency, Americans will be able to leave behind the era of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and "wiretaps without warrants," he said. (He was referring to the lingering legal fallout over reports that the National Security Agency scooped up Americans' phone and Internet activities without court orders, ostensibly to monitor terrorist plots, in the years after the September 11 attacks.)

It's hardly a new stance for Obama, who has made similar statements in previous campaign speeches, but mention of the issue in a stump speech, alongside more frequently discussed topics like Iraq and education, may give some clue to his priorities.

At the event, which was interrupted for about 10 minutes when a woman in the audience felt faint and was carried out on a stretcher,

Ah the good ol' days, of lofty ideals and fainting women. I miss them so.
 
I haven't fully understood what all the hubbub has been about. We passed the stupid Patriot Act like a decade ago and they've kept it in place. What the fuck did people think they were doing with all that power?


Bring back Russ Feingold!
 
"This administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our constitution or our freedom. That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. Or tracking citizens who do no more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are."​
 
Does anybody really think the President has the power to change anything substantially anymore? NSA has and will always do what they want






.
 

Slavik81

Member
Does anybody really think the President has the power to change anything substantially anymore? NSA has and will always do what they want
I think he could do something if he cared to. Unfortunately, almost nobody in Congress cares about civil liberties when it's framed in the context of national security. Democrats and Republicans are united on this front. What a real shame.
 

tHoMNZ

Member
Today's news relating to the Verizon data and records siege speaks volumes about this president and his absolute abuse of power.

And when coupled with Eric Holder's abuses regarding the targeting of journalists and whistleblowers, Obama's positioning of John Brennan at CIA and James Comey at FBI, along with Obama's shift of drone warfare from CIA to DOD, which will now conveniently enable drones to operate within our borders, we all should be very, very scared. Because dissent, discussion, debate can no longer exist with this sort of omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent government.

In short, the deck is stacked against us.

Years ago, while in the midst of fighting the Bush administration for access to 9/11 documents that the 9/11 Commission needed to conduct its investigation, I met some old law school buddies for drinks. During our conversations, I railed against the Patriot Act and its inherent triggers against "our" privacy rights.

My friends -- all up and coming partners at law firms -- couldn't quite understand what I was so riled up about. As far as they were concerned, they didn't really care if anyone listened into their conversations or monitored their activities because they weren't doing anything wrong. Shrugging their shoulders, they ordered more drinks.

Because of the battle that I was up against in Washington and my self-described status of "activist," I felt quite differently. I wanted to know the definition of a "threat to national security" because I worried that with elastic logic I could potentially be deemed a "threat" to national security. Paranoid or not, I was concerned about the slippery slope.

But probably most importantly, after I watched my husband blow up in his office building while my government stood by and did nothing, I didn't trust my government -- not one bit.

Ten years later, I still don't blindly trust my government. And now it seems, for even better reasons.

Because to me, it doesn't matter what political party a president or his underlings profess to belong to. Every president (and all of his cabal) should be judged and held accountable for their actions -- not their words, their empty promises, pathetic excuses, or their lame marshmallow legalistic rubber-band rationalizations.

For years during the Bush administration, many groups fought against the Patriot Act and its illegal surveillance of U.S. citizens. They screamed about pre-emptive war based on lies. They questioned illegal "detainment" of "enemy combatants." They were horrified by torture and extraordinary renditions. They fought for the sanctity and protection of whistleblowers. They spoke out against Cheney and Rumsfeld and their evil Executive Branch power-grab that threatened the very principles of democracy, our Constitution and our precious balance of powers.

And yet, where are these people now?


Where are their eyes, their ears, and their screaming voices?

Why aren't their fists in the air and their passions emboldened?

Where is our collective conscience?

Because at this point, our Constitutional rights and privileges -- our national security -- are once again under attack.

We all need to pull ourselves out of our collective morass of self-absorption and myopic disconnect and start paying better attention -- hell, ANY attention -- to exactly what is going on in our country at large.

We need to start asking questions and demanding answers.

We need to rein in Obama's power. And the power of the Executive Branch.

Because at this point, given the boundless parameters now put in place by our Nobel Peace Prize-winning-former-community-organizer-of-a-President, none of us can afford to be innocent, benign bystanders.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/krist...m_b_3396464.html?utm_hp_ref=politics#comments

I really have to laugh that this is a surprise to people. 'kooks' have known it for years.
 
I agree with the NYT article, but god damn fox news is so fucking irritating.

http://www.foxnews.com/

They are running with the headline that the NYT claimed that the Obama administration has "lost all credibility". Actually what the editorial claimed was that the administration has lost all credibility *on this issue*. Those are totally different statements.
 

strobogo

Banned
I was out at my uncle's today and he went on a crazy drunken rant about Obama. He's a great guy and I love him more than most of my blood relatives, but I always find it so weird that these people get so pissed with Obama and won't even acknowledge that most of what he's done/doing is just continuation/expansion of Bush policies. And after we both agreed that someone who gets to that level isn't really in control and can't impose their own will, but still it's a personal thing with Obama. Racism and all, but it's weird.
 
He is a terrible president made less terrible by the administration that preceded him. It's not that he does more contentiously slimy stuff as Bush, it's that he does absolutely nothing. I mean, he sure does say a lot, but actions speak louder than words.
 

Jex

Member
For all those who feel that Obama is somehow neutral on this kind of issue it's worth remembering how he treats Government whistleblowers who, after all, are the one who can help inform the public about the abuses of Government power:

"Simultaneously, the Obama administration has attacked more national security whistleblowers as Espionage Act criminals than all previous administrations combined, lumping them in with spies." - source.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
He is a terrible president made less terrible by the administration that preceded him. It's not that he does more contentiously slimy stuff as Bush, it's that he does absolutely nothing. I mean, he sure does say a lot, but actions speak louder than words.

Even a president that wanted to fix things would get bent over by the quagmire of dumbfuckery that is Congress.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
He is a terrible president made less terrible by the administration that preceded him. It's not that he does more contentiously slimy stuff as Bush, it's that he does absolutely nothing. I mean, he sure does say a lot, but actions speak louder than words.

Obama not being able to pass any of his legislation isn't really pertinent of a discussion on his administration's value on civil liberties, nor is it really a reflection of him as a president but instead a reflection on the congress we elected in 2010 and 2012.
 
I agree with the NYT article, but god damn fox news is so fucking irritating.

http://www.foxnews.com/

They are running with the headline that the NYT claimed that the Obama administration has "lost all credibility". Actually what the editorial claimed was that the administration has lost all credibility *on this issue*. Those are totally different statements.

The original editorial stated "lost all credibility" without the qualifier.
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
He is a terrible president made less terrible by the administration that preceded him. It's not that he does more contentiously slimy stuff as Bush, it's that he does absolutely nothing. I mean, he sure does say a lot, but actions speak louder than words.
Considering the absolute stonewall Congress has become, I'm actually surprised at how much he's been able to get done.
 
How do you do one without doing the other?

"I don't like what you're doing but I'm going to put you in a position to do it."

How does that work?

You can vote for say, his economic policy or social but fight against his record on spying(through protests, voting a different representative, organizing against a certain policy, etc)
 

antonz

Member
This is why you never let Politicians make power grabs like the Patriot Act. Once the power is obtained its only going to get used and abused and expanded by each consecutive administration.

Once the power is given they want more and more
 

Qvoth

Member
i'm not an american, just wanna say that i still like him
matter of fact is, being a president/prime minister/king/whatever of any country is a dirty job, if you believe other wise then that's just being naive
 
The thousands of Americans who died on September 11 would be ashamed and sickened to learn that their deaths were being used to justify this shit.*

*if the afterlife is real of course
 

Nesotenso

Member
it is all the providers not just Verizon.

Most of the Senate knows that this has been going on for about 7 years.

NSA can't listen in on conversations.
 

Cheerilee

Member
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
 

ToxicAdam

Member
I haven't fully understood what all the hubbub has been about. We passed the stupid Patriot Act like a decade ago and they've kept it in place. What the fuck did people think they were doing with all that power?

Pretty much.


Although, I think many had hoped that Obama was going to relax it and stop the wars overseas. But his main goal seemed to be getting re-elected, he wasn't going to let another terrorist attack subvert that.

That's the catch-22 that every lawmaker is going to be in, going forward. If you relax the laws, the spying, the espionage and something happens, you and your party will be left holding the bag.
 
This whole "Assassinating American citizen" is fucking ridiculous. People EVERY SINGLE other country in the world, were they in America's situation would've done the exact same thing.

Moroever, why the fuck does it seem like you all care more that he was an "American" than the fact that he was (rightfully, I might add) assassinated? He was committing treason, which by definition, is the death penalty. Whether you agree with it or not, that shit was lawful.
 
The American government's obsession with war and national security is just creepy. Hardly a problem with just Obama though it is disappointing to see his continued policies with it. Shooshoo President Hussein Obamacare :eek:ooo
 
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