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Deleted member 17706
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The things is that most of those other things have huge deterrents attached to them in the form of immediate negative consequences.
Obesity as a Disease
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The things is that most of those other things have huge deterrents attached to them in the form of immediate negative consequences.
So people have no foresight? That's the problem?
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Deleted member 17706
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You really don't know what you're talking about. This is hogwash.
Obesity and the associated diseases are causing massive, massive increases in the cost of health care. It's easy to keep the sick alive with drugs and treatment, and now you have most of the population getting sick. When you start having everyone receiving drugs and treatment and taking more from the system than they are giving, it is simply not sustainable in the long run. It's going to collapse.
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Deleted member 17706
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It's less of a problem and more of a trait of humanity. We are poor at long term planning. It's just part of what we are. Exploiting that trait for profit is the problem.
Bipolar may cause you to do this.
OCD might cause you to do this.
If you had Kleptomania, you might.
Gee, that sounds like another symptom.
This can indeed be a real disorder. Sex addiction exists; so does OCD. Even Tourette's could manifest this way (as Tourrette's sufferers exhibit motor as well as verbal malfunction).
Again, this is a real disorder. Kleptomania may be mostly a punchline to some, but it's a real problem for real people.
Your examples were pretty poorly chosen; yes, there are real, medically recognized disorders that apply to these situations.
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Deleted member 17706
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Separating the mind and the body is an issue, too. Both your mind and your body react to what you eat and both can have profound effects on the other. Obesity can lead to depression or vice versa, for example.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
So, more than one third of adults in the US are diseased.
I guess I have no problem labeling obesity a disease. It's all semantics, I suppose.
The main problem I have is in how obesity is defined.
If BMI is the measure of this disease, it's probably one of the most misdiagnosed disease in the world. BMI needs to be replaced with a better indicator.
I guess I have no problem labeling obesity a disease. It's all semantics, I suppose.
The main problem I have is in how obesity is defined.
If BMI is the measure of this disease, it's probably one of the most misdiagnosed disease in the world. BMI needs to be replaced with a better indicator.
Mental illness is still a disease.
I'm not sure if its a disease or not but I'm glad people in the medical community are talking it over.
It has always seemed strange to me how different things effect people in different ways. For some food is their vice, other spending money or booze. The obese person might be fiscially conservative and a great investor, showing their ability to have control and plan long term. Then food comes along and all of the restraint and planning are forgotten. On the other hand we have a normal weight person who is constantly broke and just can't stop spending. They control one impulse easily but are completely broken by the other. If it was all just will power then why does one thing effect a person while another doesn't.
The whole thing, needs/wants in different people and how they react to them is really interesting.
It has always seemed strange to me how different things effect people in different ways. For some food is their vice, other spending money or booze. The obese person might be fiscially conservative and a great investor, showing their ability to have control and plan long term. Then food comes along and all of the restraint and planning are forgotten. On the other hand we have a normal weight person who is constantly broke and just can't stop spending. They control one impulse easily but are completely broken by the other. If it was all just will power then why does one thing effect a person while another doesn't.
The whole thing, needs/wants in different people and how they react to them is really interesting.
If we accept that 100% of people that are overweight are so because they eat beyond their BMR then no, I don't agree it is a disease.
The comfort eaters out there, the people that are only happy when eating tons of crap are the only ones I could see being argued for the disease label.
Even then, people choose every mouthful of food they chew and swallow.
Eat too much, you get fat. How is this choice a disease.
The comfort eaters out there, the people that are only happy when eating tons of crap are the only ones I could see being argued for the disease label.
Even then, people choose every mouthful of food they chew and swallow.
Eat too much, you get fat. How is this choice a disease.
Hobbestetrician
Member
So what do we do that isn't a disorder?
I'm aware, and that's kind of my point. Of the examples I gave, the majority of the times those things happen are not due to a disorder, or disease but due to poor decision making. Our society loves labels, and no one will be happy until everything is labelled and blamed appropriately.
Can you honestly tell me the majority of obese people are obese because of a disorder or disease? Or simply because unhealthy food is delicious and cheap and exercise is difficult and requires effort.
Our society isn't doing the labeling here. Medical science is.
Yes, I can honestly say that it is because of a disorder -- a disorder precipitated by the ubiquitous, cheap access to unhealthy foods.
Alcoholism, another disorder, also doesn't occur in a vacuum. It only occurs once someone has access to alcohol.
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Deleted member 17706
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Exactly. We'd have a hell of a lot more alcoholics if it were dirt cheap, hyper-palatable, available everywhere, and we were constantly being bombarded with advertisements and new flavors on a daily basis.
Any function which does not impair our normal state or which does not interfere with vital functions.
People think obesity is a problem, it isn't. (In medical terms)
Metabolic syndrome is the problem.
There are plenty of people who aren't obese who suffer from metabolic syndrome, and there are plenty of people who are obese who do not have metabolic syndrome, aren't at risk of diabetes type 2 or heart disease and will live normal lives.
The problem isn't subcutaneous fat, the fat that lines the skin, it's visceral fat, the fat that lines organs...and researches are becoming quickly aware that the presence of one isn't necessarily a reliable predictor of the other.
Metabolic syndrome is the problem.
There are plenty of people who aren't obese who suffer from metabolic syndrome, and there are plenty of people who are obese who do not have metabolic syndrome, aren't at risk of diabetes type 2 or heart disease and will live normal lives.
The problem isn't subcutaneous fat, the fat that lines the skin, it's visceral fat, the fat that lines organs...and researches are becoming quickly aware that the presence of one isn't necessarily a reliable predictor of the other.
Masturbation is evil, but a box of donuts... is ok.
Hobbestetrician
Member
If Obesity is a Disease, then Exercise is Medicine.
This really becomes a connotation versus denotation problem as terms like 'disease' or 'medicine' have certain definitions in their field but mean slightly different things to the public.
This really becomes a connotation versus denotation problem as terms like 'disease' or 'medicine' have certain definitions in their field but mean slightly different things to the public.
So what is our normal state and what is vital? Is being human a disorder?
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Deleted member 17706
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Bullshit. You aren't going to exercise your way out of a poor diet. Prescribing physical activity for the very obese can do damage.
Exercise is great, but it shouldn't be viewed as the main path to weight loss. This whole "overweight as the product of energy imbalance" nonsense has caused so much damage.
Aeriscloud
Banned
Whatever it is, it sure does make a lot of people angry for some reason.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
1. It's a disease.
2. The study wasn't refuting its classification.
South Park has an episode covering this (dealing with alcoholism, though) "You lack discipline!"
http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s09e14-bloody-mary
2. The study wasn't refuting its classification.
South Park has an episode covering this (dealing with alcoholism, though) "You lack discipline!"
http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s09e14-bloody-mary
Wow, great insight. I don't know why we even had this thread.
No it does not have to specifically be McDonald's. If the Twinkie company shutting down can cure your disease, it isn't a real disease.
No. It's a legit therapy for the other 99% of people without medical issues who just eat and eat and sit on the couch.
maniac-kun
Member
Some people probably will say well i have a disease and i need to fight it now.
speculawyer
Member
It is certainly a dangerous public health issue. But 'disease' seems to be the wrong word. If I break my arm, that is also a medical issue but not a 'disease'.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
For the most part, people are not fat because they don't exercise. They don't exercise because they are fat.
I really hope that some day the common wisdom shifts to something more sensible and less vile.
I really hope that some day the common wisdom shifts to something more sensible and less vile.
You also aren't going to excercise your way out of a poor socioeconomic standing to have access to more healthy food options.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
This is also a huge problem. For some people out there, garbage is really the only realistic option they have for food.
It's not a disease. It's a side-effect from a massive shift to processed and fast foods in the US (and others') culture in the last 30 years. When going to the grocery store and picking up fried chicken and some sides, or heating up lasagna in the oven is considered 'cooking', of course people are going to add weight. That stuff is filled with so much sugar, salt, and additives that only very active or high metabolism people are going to stay thin (if still unhealthy).
Add in downing it all with a can or two of Coke, and it's easy to see why people are adding weight, and why some people get addicted to sugar and eat so much. It's not like sugar is very filling, but it does taste VERY good if you're used to it.
Add in downing it all with a can or two of Coke, and it's easy to see why people are adding weight, and why some people get addicted to sugar and eat so much. It's not like sugar is very filling, but it does taste VERY good if you're used to it.
I guess it's "let's just grab percentages from our derriere" day.
The discussion of whether or not obesity is a disease, a disorder or something else entirely is extremely meaningful. Dismissing these designations as semantics is dismissing the very signs we use to communicate to each other. Language drives thought and meaning and even something as supposedly subtle as designating obesity as a disease changes behavior! Opiate caught this discussion and rephrased it better early on but he's been about the only one to carry on looking at the subject in that lens.
Despite how fashionable it is to dismiss a thing outright as 'mere' or 'just' semantics, it's very important. And in the interest of clarity this isn't a charge leveled specifically at you, but rather it's a launching pad for further discussion.
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Deleted member 17706
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It's a disease largely caused by the shift you described. Why do you want to classify it as a "side-effect" (what would the primary effect be in this case, anyway)?
Shouta
Member
The focus on it being an issue wholly placed on the individual actually makes it a prime part in tearing down obese individuals and often ruins their self-esteem, willingness to tackle any issues, and can cause a distorted (or perhaps not so distorted) view of everything. In some respects, the way we handle obesity has an effect that's akin to how the perception of beauty in society can warp the minds of girls and women. It becomes ingrained in the person and sets them up for failure in future endeavors without the proper counseling. It's obviously not the same but the type of messages that are sent to individuals actually impact how they respond and what they can do from there.
Besides, the issue isn't simply good diet and regular exercise, food culture and cooking methodology is really fucked up in the US.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
Really? Bit of a chicken egg argument, but if obese maintained an active lifestyle in their youth and adult life would they have become obese? Obesity is not the default state of humanity.
Hobbestetrician
Member
The article doesn't actually say that exercise is being pushed as a cure for obesity but rather issues (cardiovascular, diabetes, back pain) that can occur from obesity or not. And it also says nowhere that it should be the only approach. Also, the bolded is you putting words into my post/article that were not there or even suggested.
Of course that is true but let's not just disregard exercise as something people should be doing regardless.
Exactly why I'm against labelling it as a disease. The general population, including myself, doesn't know the exact definition of the word disease. I'm betting most people would associate a disease with something that happens to you regardless of your day to day choices (food consumption in this case). I believe labelling it as a disease will ultimately increase obesity as people feel that it is a disease with no cure.
The cure is out there, exercise is free and easily available. Education is key. I think there are people who actually do not know what is good and bad for them anymore, actually I think most people don't always know.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
It's definitely a lot easier and more enjoyable to exercise when you aren't carrying around a ton of extra weight that is causing pain on your joints. When you are obese, you are most likely there because you are eating certain foods and in such a way that you are sending signals to your body to accumulate and retain as much fat as possible. In that state, the last thing the body wants is to move around and be forced to release any of its precious fat for energy. It will down regulate and make you feel sluggish, tired, and without energy.
The focus needs to be first and foremost on the diet. Once you've gotten to a point where you are readily mobilizing fat tissue for energy use, and are at a more reasonable weight, introducing exercise would be a good idea.
Sorry, I kind of TLDR'd your post there and merely responded to the statement in the first sentence.
Even if we assume that the only important decision factor of obesity is will power -- the ability to not do what you want to do -- that doesn't make obesity simple, because will power isn't simple.
As far as we can tell, different people simply have different reserves of will power. And one can reach a state called ego depletion, where one has used all the will power one has.
We, of course, don't like to think of ourselves as out of our executive control, so we tell ourselves we're good when we successfully exert will power and we tell ourselves we're bad when we don't, but the science of will power suggests that the number of times we've told ourselves no over a time period reduces our ability to continue doing so, which is likely why most diets simply do not work in the long term.
None of the new science regarding obesity is going to make any difference to someone who has already decided that this is a moral problem, though. We like simple answers, even when they're wrong or incomplete.
As far as we can tell, different people simply have different reserves of will power. And one can reach a state called ego depletion, where one has used all the will power one has.
We, of course, don't like to think of ourselves as out of our executive control, so we tell ourselves we're good when we successfully exert will power and we tell ourselves we're bad when we don't, but the science of will power suggests that the number of times we've told ourselves no over a time period reduces our ability to continue doing so, which is likely why most diets simply do not work in the long term.
None of the new science regarding obesity is going to make any difference to someone who has already decided that this is a moral problem, though. We like simple answers, even when they're wrong or incomplete.
Hobbestetrician
Member
I suppose my first sentence would lead someone to believe I was conflating the two things so no worries. My point was more about phrasing and how things can have different meanings so if obesity is a disease then exercise could also be medicine, just not necessarily for the disease of obesity. It's all good.
An unhealthy food supply and laziness/lack of time when preparing food.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
As far as I understand, the AMA calling it a "disease" has no legal bearing and this was done against the recommendation of a panel specifically assigned to looking into this matter by the AMA. Also, there's no clear cut medical definition of a "disease". AND the definition of obese relies on an ancient, crude, unreliable measurement (BMI). So, I'm going to say again that a lot of this controversy involves semantics.
I know man.I live in Kuwait and its currently 2nd in obesity ( small Population). obesity is so popular here we have special line in the medical centers pharmacies for people with diabetes and blood pressure (which is usually longer than the normal line in the morning).
Im glad i changed my lifestyle otherwise i would have been standing that line right now.
BossLackey
Gold Member
As recently as 100 years go, even the most obese people on the planet didn't hold a candle to fat people now. People who can't even move without assistance.
The recent epidemic of obese individuals can be attributed to easily available and cheap processed foods that contain several times the calories of food eaten any time on the planet before now. That mixed with automation and sedentary lifestyles = a bunch of fatasses.
The recent epidemic of obese individuals can be attributed to easily available and cheap processed foods that contain several times the calories of food eaten any time on the planet before now. That mixed with automation and sedentary lifestyles = a bunch of fatasses.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Breaking your arm isn't a psychological issue, though. If alcoholism is a disease, so is obesity, especially since sugar does contain some characteristics of substance dependence.
http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S22/88/56G31/index.xml?section=topstories
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