Amazing how alcoholism took off after the invention of the distillery.
Obesity as a Disease
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Amazing how alcoholism took off after the invention of the distillery.
Amazing how bubonic plague took off once we were all crammed together.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Substance dependencies and addiction-related mental health issues have been around forever. Our modern lifestyle combined with bad government-sponsored nutrition education allows this to manifest itself physically much more easily.
ninja edit: lol at ^
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
If you label obesity as a disease doesn't this just give the pharmaceutical industry an excuse to drug everyone up and charge stupid premiums instead of educating people about how and why we get fat?
Random Painted HIghway
Member
Yes but to me the only positive of this would be to perhaps cover gym memberships under health insurance. IMHO, people will use the disease angle as a crutch much like you hear people claiming to have thyroid or glandular issues causing the obesity.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
So many people in here seem to think a disease is a kind of illness that you must either be born with or "catch" from someone else, or something. Just weird.
CornBurrito
Member
Interesting to note the difference in attitude people on this website have about obesity vs wealth disparity. Rising obesity rates? Man those fat people are just lazy. Huge disparity between the poor and the rich? People on here argue that isn't due to everyone magically becoming lazier. But that contradicts their view with obesity which requires them to believe that a large amount of the world population magically became lazy in the last few years.
Please don't act as if everyone here has the same opinion. I know it takes a little more time to qualify generalizations, but it will save you from getting banned.
Beer Monkey
Member
It's considered shameful to be obese in France, Italy, et al. and people don't want to be ashamed so they exercise more self-discipline. Obesity is soaring here because it isn't considered shameful. If you look back several decades ago our average weight was much closer to theirs, but it wasn't considered "OK" to be obese here back then.
The real problem with labeling obesity as a disease, as pointed out in the OP, is it can undermine weight loss. It weakens health focused dieting and leads to people making higher calorie choices. It lowers concern about weight. About the only benefit is it lowers body dissatisfaction.
1. Portion control. Go to a restaurant in Europe. The portions are like half the size they are in the US. Same with soda drink sizes.
2. US Corn subsidies. Shit is everywhere in our food, and it's horrible for you.
Those are the big two I can think of. We also don't have nearly the stigma as other countries do around the size of a person. I've been overweight forever, and I only decided to make a lifestyle change because I had too many friends who died in their 40s from unhealthy lifestyles. It certainly wasn't because it held me back personally or professionally, because it hasn't. Other countries? Much, much bigger stigma around being fat.
As to the topic, I believe that obesity is a self inflicted disease caused by the inability to control one's eating. Yes, it is just like alcoholism in that way. I used to smoke as well, and can tell you that eating healthier is much, much harder than quitting smoking. However, once I taught myself to not obsess over food and where my next meal was coming from, and I stopped treating food as a deserved treat, it became easier. Never easy, just easier.
Zoe
Member
Most obesity treatments (nutrition guidance and training programs) don't get covered by insurance. Classifying it as a disease could change that.
I think obesity is more of the result of one or several diseases or conditions much some sort of addiction that leads to the situation. In any case, it's not much different than drug abuse, or alcohol abuse. Obese people slowly self-destructs in their situation,and it leads to a very painful social exclusion.
I find it troubling to see gaffers (its not really the case in this thread) posting pretty vile and inconsiderate things about people suffering from obesity. It also baffles me to see people almost 'bragging' about losing 10kgs as it was some sort of heroic feat. Losing weight is a very nice thing and quite a challenge, and it's good to be proud of results, but let's say that having to lose 10kg is not the same challenge as losing 50.
And losing the weight is half the battle. It's not just a matter of going to the gym and eating well, you have to have a very strong support system there for you before, during and ESPECIALLY after the loss. I happen to know several people who dropped lots of weight and .. the after- effects were not as easy:
And all those "fat and proud" movements should be shamed into non-existence..
I find it troubling to see gaffers (its not really the case in this thread) posting pretty vile and inconsiderate things about people suffering from obesity. It also baffles me to see people almost 'bragging' about losing 10kgs as it was some sort of heroic feat. Losing weight is a very nice thing and quite a challenge, and it's good to be proud of results, but let's say that having to lose 10kg is not the same challenge as losing 50.
And losing the weight is half the battle. It's not just a matter of going to the gym and eating well, you have to have a very strong support system there for you before, during and ESPECIALLY after the loss. I happen to know several people who dropped lots of weight and .. the after- effects were not as easy:
- woman, who had part of her stomach removed. Lost over 70kb. She had lots of issues after when it comes to dealing with the new male attention, the system shock of having lost so much weight. she also has to take daily vitamins as her iron levels are affected for life. Physically she looks fine, but inside she is an emotional mess
- man, had some intense bypass+stomach removal surgery done, he is dealing with it well but has a very solid crew of people behind him, married man, but almost ruined everything SEVERAL TIMES due to the renewed female attention. he's Shaq-Sized too. he's the better off example of people i know
- woman, lost 50kg, naturally. She wasnt a lifer, but multiple pregnancies caused the situation. She had a massive downfall and has lots of problems with her iron lvels too, had to go to the doc for regular checks monthly and is now also followed by a psychiatrist due to emotional downfall from the weight loss
- woman, some sort of primitive stomach surgery done, lost about 30kg.. But not really motivated. She is taking it well but wish for more. No downfalls, nothing so far.
And all those "fat and proud" movements should be shamed into non-existence..
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
This is a hard one for me, because I can see both sides. There are a lot of people out there that could just skip dessert and exercise a bit and get their weight down as to not be obese. I don't like the idea that these people (or myself even) could go eat Taco Bell for lunch every day instead of bringing a sandwich from home and just say "oh, well I have a disease." It seems to be used as a crutch not to do anything.
There are some serious medical conditions that cause weight gain, and some mental issues as well.
But if I, a normal and fully-functioning person with no mental issues, became fat I don't see how I could just say "oh it's alright, it's a disease, nothing I did."
There are some serious medical conditions that cause weight gain, and some mental issues as well.
But if I, a normal and fully-functioning person with no mental issues, became fat I don't see how I could just say "oh it's alright, it's a disease, nothing I did."
It surely can't really be 100% genetic, otherwise the obesity outspread wouldn't make sense. There is obesity caused by genes of course, but that variant is rare.
I would guess that it has something to do with high fructose corn syrup and the idiotic usage of it in all sorts of food, especially in US. I wonder when this "super-size everything" started.
Those curves sort of fit:
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sugar+consumption+per+capita+in+USA+and+France
Smaller portions.
They didn't abandon saturated fats in the 1980s and replace it with sugar to the extent that we did.
This right here? -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_paradox
Not that big of a paradox, after all.
Correlation doesn't imply causation, and you're ignoring the large sectors of the world that exist without HFCS that have seen an almost identical rise in obesity rates. Such as Australia, the UK, Germany, and others.
Yet obsesity rates are rising everywhere, including Asia. While not as fast as the U.S. has, they are rising which means it's not just something about the uncontrolled lazy Americans.
OriginofHysteria
Banned
Pretty much this, you look at portions in other countries and then come back here and it's a huge difference. And not to mention that since we appreciate value so much, that we are willing to super size our meal for that extra 50 cents because it's such a good deal.
Citation needed. is not like the current approach has tremendous success.
We'd also have to note that Americans were not nearly this obese even in the recent past. Therefore, you'd have to argue that Americans decided to suddenly get lazy en masse. We're not even talking about a full generation here; people who were alive in 1980 (when the obesity rates in the US began increasing rapidly) are still alive today. Did Americans all collectively just decide to get lazy?
Phobophile
A scientist and gentleman in the manner of Batman.
Reaganomics, baby! Why bother working? That wealth'll trickle down to me!
The access to shit food is more prevalent and cheaper. Nobody decided to get lazy, it's just a by product of convenience.
CornBurrito
Member
Fair enough. I didn't mean to lump every participant in the same boat, but just note the majority opinion based on my reading of the first two pages.
I agree, but we've now taken the discussion out of framework of choice. You are describing obesity as a product of a (more) deleterious environment rather than a product of suddenly worse decision making by consumers. The solution, then, would be to change the environment, not change the consumer.
OriginofHysteria
Banned
Why should the environment change though? I for one enjoy it when 20 piece nuggets are on sale at McDonalds for 4 dollars. I don't think anything is wrong with trying to change the consumer through education and awareness. I mean if you're looking to change the environment then you're looking at NYC and it's taxing on Big Gulps which I don't think will go over well with anyone.
We're trying to solve the obesity problem, correct? Darksol cited environmental changes (specifically easier, cheaper access to "shit food") as the root cause of the problem. If you want to solve a problem, you confront the cause.
CornBurrito
Member
Well that's the trade off. More freedom doesn't always equal more happiness or health.
Then this is pretty much cultural, isn't it? Because countries like France or Japan absolutely do eat fast food and overall high-calorie stuff. I'd agree that portion sizes are a pretty big difference.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Click on the wolfram alpha link
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sugar+consumption+per+capita+in+USA+and+France
Coffee Dog
Banned
I think obesity is a symptom of other mental or physical diseases, but i do not belive it itself is a disease.
I'm in favour of changing both and place a bulk of the responsibility on the environment. We're genetically programmed to seek out salt and sugar, and there's no denying fast food chains exploit that. However, until (if ever) the public or government take more initiative in bringing down these societal ills, all we're able to affect is ourselves.
People used to cook for themselves more often and exercised more. It comes as no surprise to me that generally, more active individuals, especially when paired with a basic understanding of nutrition and caloric intake, are less likely to be overweight or obese.
I'm sympathetic to people struggling to maintain a healthy weight and it's an issue I deal with as well. But to label obesity as a disease insinuates that we're powerless to change, which simply isn't true for most people.
MrToughPants
Brian Burke punched my mom
Ignorance isn't a disorder.
If you can count and are able to exercise as an adult, ignoring those with real medical conditions, you only have yourself to blame for being obese. If you really like to eat and it makes you happy, like me, just exercise.
I eat 50% healthy/50% garbage, unhealthy food isn't an excuse.
My favorite part about this is that France eats more wheat than the US
Bread might not be evil. Sugar, I think pretty much everyone knows or should know that sugar is bad.I agree, on an individual level, that we have far more control over our own situation than we do on society in general.
But when confronting the obesity epidemic, we're explicitly talking about society as a whole, and not just ourselves. In those cases, we do not have control over other people. Generally speaking, it's far easier to change the environment than it is to get hundreds of millions of people to consciously avoid the dangers of that environment.
Related: one of the most thoughtful essays on the subject I've ever read. http://lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_questions_about/
We're not discussing ignorance, we're discussing overeating. Not many people get fat on McDonalds and Burger King and Ice Cream without knowledge that the food probably isn't healthy for them. It may happen occasionally, but not typically.
Similarly, someone who is depressed has constant, unrepressable thoughts about how worthless they are. The problem isn't ignorance; it isn't as if you can go up to them and say, "Oh, those thoughts will make you sad. Just think about things that make you happy," and suddenly depression is cured.
Zoe
Member
I know exactly what I should be eating. I know exactly how much I should be eating. That doesn't mean I'm going to order a salad and a water over a burger and a Coke.
I exercise plenty too. It takes athlete-level conditioning to out-train a bad diet.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Strange mentality you and many others seem to have in regards to the word disease. Having a disease does not necessarily wave all responsibility of the individual. Diseases can be self-inflicted. The "who's at fault" part should not really matter. I don't see why that is what so many people are focusing on.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Problem l have is l never feel full 
Addiction, how does it work? I mean I guess people do want to die by overdosing on heroine, or to kill their livers with alcohol, or get cancer from smoking. They want those things like fat people want cardiac arrests
ZombieSupaStar
Member
For me I gained weigh because of depression. I've lost a lot of the weight now, but I'm still the most depressed I've ever been. But at least I'll make a good looking corpse someday.
also once I got "into the groove" of eating right, and exercising it became easier. It's just that 3 week or so period in the beginning where you feel like you're starving, don't look any different, and have barely lost weight. Once you get the first couple "Oh wows!" when people see you, it gets easier to stick to it.
also once I got "into the groove" of eating right, and exercising it became easier. It's just that 3 week or so period in the beginning where you feel like you're starving, don't look any different, and have barely lost weight. Once you get the first couple "Oh wows!" when people see you, it gets easier to stick to it.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Show some empathy. Using yourself as an example is just ridiculous. Don't you lift heavy shit for your job day in and day out and then hit the weights heavy multiple times a week?
You're probably fully depleting your glycogen stores on a daily basis which is why you can get away with consuming so much crap and still remain quite lean.
Most people, for whom "exercise" might be a stroll in the park, need to be much more careful with their sugar and starch consumption.
Problem l have is l never feel full
What does an average day of eating look like for you?
This is excellent. It certainly describes my position more precisely and deliberately.
King Mac of Furry Frog
Member
Doesn't matter what you call it, at the end of the day you're still the one doing the shit to your body.
Willpower exists.
Willpower exists.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Your logic is, "if other people can do it, then so can you." Correct me if I'm wrong.
Would you apply this to all other facets of life, too?
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