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[Afrikan]

The latency problems are an entirely different beast when you're talking about head tracking. Carmack isn't talking about latency for button presses or stuff like that, he's talking about not having your view lag behind your head movement.

If the Rift is going to trick your brain into thinking you're standing and looking around in a game, you need to get under a certain threshold. The HMZ is way, way too slow.

haha what the hell are folks talking about in here.. Do ANY of you have the HMZ? and a PS3 game that allow you to use head tracking?

I have the thing and like I said, it is one to one with no sense of "lag behind your head movement".

i wonder if Carmack has used this setup as well (PS3, 3D, Move)...or is he just going based off specs and math. or just hooking it up with PC use. I know the guy is a 1000x smarter than me regarding this field. But its like he says something, then everyone here just repeats what he says without having experienced it to confirm. I'm reading "killz it" or "shits on it" or "omg the lag is so obvious, it is unplayable".. I'm like whaaaat?

i believe 1-D_FTW has it, and has his own complaints regarding the HMZ. But I don't know if he tried it with Datura, with head tracking.

 

[Shawsie64]

haha what the hell are folks talking about in here.. Do ANY of you have the HMZ? and a PS3 game that allow you to use head tracking?

I have the thing and like I said, it is one to one with no sense of "lag behind your head movement".

i wonder if Carmack has used this setup as well (PS3, 3D, Move)...or is he just going based off specs and math. or just hooking it up with PC use. I know the guy is a 1000x smarter than me regarding this field. But its like he says something, then everyone here just repeats what he says without having experienced it to confirm. I'm reading "killz it" or "shits on it" or "omg the lag is so obvious, it is unplayable".. I'm like whaaaat?

i believe 1-D_FTW has it, and has his own complaints regarding the HMZ. But I don't know if he tried it with Datura, with head tracking.

I think Carmack has it, well he was comparing it directly to the HMZ he had on his desk in the Giantbomb video.. I however don't have the HMZ so cant say how good it is.

Actually I think he said he has directly measured the HMZ latency.

 

[Afrikan]

I think Carmack has it, well he was comparing it directly to the HMZ he had on his desk in the Giantbomb video.. I however don't have the HMZ so cant say how good it is.

Actually I think he said he has directly measured the HMZ latency.

yeah he does have it...and I believe he used some type of device to measure the latency...but again, from what Carmack shows...to what some interpret from that (ex- OMGz its unplayable don't you know!)..I think there is a disconnect there.

 

[Shawsie64]

yeah he does have it...and I believe he used some type of device to measure the latency...but again, from what Carmack shows...to what some interpret from that (ex- OMGz its unplayable don't you know!)..I think there is a disconnect there.

Yeah its a bit of hyperbole I think, i'd love to have a HMZ but my wife would kill me.. Luckily she doesn't know i've backed this project.. yet.

 

[Durante]

lol, "kills it", come on!
Ignore Carmacks moans about latency, the man is a robot from the future, able to detect motion timings to within one nanosecond.
No-one who has ever played with the HMZ-T1 has said anything about lag, its only Carmack when he was reverse-engineering the thing.

This is completely wrong, sorry. I was utterly hyped for the HMZ and planning on buying one -- in fact I would have gotten one immediately had it not been so rare at the start. But then I heard the first rumours of latency, and actually got it confirmed as noticeable here on GAF. That killed my interest, long before Carmack put a specific number on it.

You can check out all of that with a search on GAF.

Almost 2500 prototype units ordered. From the start of production, how long would it take this startup company to manufacture over 2500 units of this thing? Since the project hit the goal already, my card would be charged immediately, right? If so, my worry is that it would be an eternity waiting for them to produce that many units (I'm still waiting for a Raspberry Pi -_-)

This sounds amazing though; I'm definitely tempted.

People were worried about this on the MTBS3D forums before the kickstarter even began, but Palmer said that they are ready to build anything from 100 to "tens of thousands" of units. I guess it will reach 10000 at the very most, so that should be fine.

 

[1-D_FTW]

haha what the hell are folks talking about in here.. Do ANY of you have the HMZ? and a PS3 game that allow you to use head tracking?

I have the thing and like I said, it is one to one with no sense of "lag behind your head movement".

i wonder if Carmack has used this setup as well (PS3, 3D, Move)...or is he just going based off specs and math. or just hooking it up with PC use. I know the guy is a 1000x smarter than me regarding this field. But its like he says something, then everyone here just repeats what he says without having experienced it to confirm. I'm reading "killz it" or "shits on it" or "omg the lag is so obvious, it is unplayable".. I'm like whaaaat?

i believe 1-D_FTW has it, and has his own complaints regarding the HMZ. But I don't know if he tried it with Datura, with head tracking.

I think Carmack has it, well he was comparing it directly to the HMZ he had on his desk in the Giantbomb video.. I however don't have the HMZ so cant say how good it is.

Actually I think he said he has directly measured the HMZ latency.

I had it. I returned it. But, yeah, Carmarck has most definitely spent a lot of time talking about input lag on the Oculus and HMZ. He developed a device that could physically measure the input lag and it was 50 ms on the HMZ. This was one of my complaints about the HMZ. I'm very sensitive to it, and I tried a number of PC exclusive games that demanded precision control and absolutely couldn't use the thing because of it. Others have a higher threshold before it becomes an issues. But for me, it has too high and only really suitable for console games that were designed to be played on high input lag displays.

I'm pretty sure he's also spent time talking about the necessary lag levels for head tracking, but I know he's spent vast chucks of interviews on the input lag issue. Because this is a massive sore spot for me with all displays and I love listening to Carmack evangelize on the issue.

lol, "kills it", come on!
Ignore Carmacks moans about latency, the man is a robot from the future, able to detect motion timings to within one nanosecond.
No-one who has ever played with the HMZ-T1 has said anything about lag, its only Carmack when he was reverse-engineering the thing.

Which is hilarious. Because you were getting very personal and basically calling me a liar in the official thread for saying this thing had substantial lag. It's why I almost fell out of my chair laughing so hard when Carmack revealed he'd developed a device that could measure it and confirmed you were full of it. You conveniently stayed away from the official thread when this was reposted and rebutted your comments. It's one thing to be open minded that people can sense different levels, but you were just a plain asshole to me about this issue.

 

[Shawsie64]

I had it. I returned it. But, yeah, Carmarck has most definitely spent a lot of time talking about input lag on the Oculus and HMZ. He developed a device that could physically measure the input lag and it was 50 ms on the HMZ. This was one of my complaints about the HMZ. I'm very sensitive to it, and I tried a number of PC exclusive games that demanded precision control and absolutely couldn't use the thing because of it. Others have a higher threshold before it becomes an issues. But for me, it has too high and only really suitable for console games that were designed to be played on high input lag displays.

I'm pretty sure he's also spent time talking about the necessary lag levels for head tracking, but I know he's spent vast chucks of interviews on the input lag issue. Because this is a massive sore spot for me with all displays and I love listening to Carmack evangelize on the issue.

Ah, thanks for the info

 

[1-D_FTW]

edit: [removed] This shit is getting crazy.
Its like system wars: HMZ vs Carmack fans.



Not really, i looked around several owner threads to see if anyone else was complaining about lag and couldn't find any. And i looked, really looked for it, in fast games like Motorstorm and Batman, both PS3 and PC, and couldn't see any. So i just assumed you had a faulty unit and ignored your whining.

How's it whining when it's true? If it had been the greatest thing in the world, I would have acted like a video game writer and claimed it was the greatest thing in the world. All I did was talk about issues that were incredibly real and substantial. Had you just let the posts die instead of constantly challenging me on them, it wouldn't have become an issue in the thread. But if you're gonna constantly argue when you're on the wrong side of an issue, I'm not gonna let it die. Not when this was info that should have been public domain for anyone interested in the device.

Same thing with the optics. It's not whining to speak the truth. Some people value that. You're supposed to be able to see the entire screen (and not have the corners blurred). I gave you a technical answer for precisely why it was happening from an engineering POV. And you just pretended that wasn't the truth either.

 

[Durante]

edit: [removed] This shit is getting crazy.
Its like system wars: HMZ vs Carmack fans.

No, it's people that accept measurements and reality versus those trying to discredit them based on "feelings", while conveniently rewriting history.

It is, in fact, like intelligent design.

 

[gutterboy44]

It is probably good new that Sony is restructuring their entire company. I can see them much more likely to adopt the Rift as device for the PS3 and future consoles today than they may have as recent as two years ago. With Sony more likely to accept someone else shouldering the cost of hardware development and MS content to integrate their software across other hardware platforms I hope we see this become a true alternative display to regular HDTVs and monitors. Unfortunately it leaves the Wii U in a funny position since using a Rift eliminates the entire WiiU pad screen.

I didn't pull the trigger on the dev kit but I can't wait to see users impressions when they finally start to ship out.

 

[The Elite]

if all those guys endorse the product - why arent they funding it?
250k of gabes steam dollars wont hurt him a bit.

I have to imagine they are already backed in some form. 250k is awfully low for what they are developing.

 

[ido]

With HMDs, resolution(to a certain extent) is nowhere near as important as immersion(FOV, headtracking, 3D, etc).

The HMZ is not immersive. I've owned a dozen HMDs in my life and I have used HMDs with resolutions considerably less than even 480, yet I still maintain the most important feature of all is FOV.

FOV is where pretty much every HMD has failed(sans the ones that cost a fortune like the Fakespace Wide5 or the Sensics models). Only a very small handful of early 90's consumer level HMDs had a FOV at or above 60 degrees. Today, you are lucky to get even half of that.

With the Rift pushing on 100 degrees, you -really- have to understand the significance here. Anyone fond of VR knows what I mean. From experience, most HMDs feel like you're looking at a faraway screen in a tunnel and it is very hard to immerse yourself. Having such a drastic difference in FOV will finally give people an idea of what a true VR experience is able to accomplish.

I really, really hope HMDs/VR receive a swift resurgance of interest and companies start to understand the importance of immersion(FOV) over everything else.

 

[HoosTrax]

If the Amnesia devs guarantee support for this I would back this minute.

Would need a Surgeon General warning on it -- do not play this game with the Rift if you have pre-existing heart conditions.

 

[diamount]

I'll wait for the consumer version to come out into retail, but it looks pretty awesome and a potential game changer.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

I'll wait for the consumer version to come out into retail, but it looks pretty awesome and a potential game changer.

Even though I've backed this up, I have a feeling that the retail version will be more improved and more practical (and most likely cheaper).

Decisions, Decisions.

 

[Durante]

Even though I've backed this up, I have a feeling that the retail version will be more improved and more practical (and most likely cheaper).

Decisions, Decisions.

It's a question of whether its worth it to you to pay $300 to get it 9-12 months earlier. (for me, the answer is HELL YEAH, but I can certainly see that it wouldn't be for everyone)

Though I'm not certain at all about the "cheaper" part, especially with a better screen.

 

[Stealth20k]

If it feels like your there rather than looking at a screen then of course it's immersion. (assuming it's close to that good)

It's like the difference of looking at a picture from the outside compared to stepping into that picture and actually being there.

many things lead to immersion..........

a big screen isnt the only way

Sorry but when I play a game Id rather get the outside vantage point. thats just me

 

[1-D_FTW]

It's a question of whether its worth it to you to pay $300 to get it 9-12 months earlier. (for me, the answer is HELL YEAH, but I can certainly see that it wouldn't be for everyone)

Though I'm not certain at all about the "cheaper" part, especially with a better screen.

Better screen and the realization of "Oh, there's this much demand? They're fetching what on ebay? Maybe we shouldn't sell them at cost and should take some of the profits ourselves." I could easily see the consumer version selling for 500.

 

[DieH@rd]

I wonder why Carmack did not implement Oculus Rift support for Quake 3?

 

[Trogdor1123]

Wish there was a way to kick start it and get a full retail version instead of what they have there...

 

[HoosTrax]

I wonder why Carmack did not implement Oculus Rift support for Quake 3?

Isn't it a bit cheaty for those people who have to work with 90 degree FOV to play against someone with natural FOV?

 

[RadicalVelocity]

many things lead to immersion..........

a big screen isnt the only way

Sorry but when I play a game Id rather get the outside vantage point. thats just me

Outside vantage point? Playing on a traditional screen is more akin to watching what's outside through a window, from several feet away.

Rift moves you closer to the window. Whether that window be first person, third person, well above the action (RTS), etc... If it makes you feel better, this will probably still be a niche product for the next decade.

Edit: And that doesn't mean it will change afterwards, necessarily. Just as likely to die and be replaced with something else.

 

[Stewox]

It has an integrated gyro/motion sensor, yeah.

Since you asked for a comparison to the HMZ:

HMZ wins:
+ contrast
+ resolution
+ pixel switching times
+ compatibility

Rift wins:
+ display latency
+ integrated low-latency gyro/motion sensor
+ field of view (massive difference)
+ community support (this one is an assumption, but a well reasoned one I believe)
+ price

As I said above, they are very different devices, despite the form factor. The HMZ is almost unusable for VR (due to latency/FoV), and the Rift is almost unusable for movies (due to low res, and FoV again ).

You're missing one point, i've watched every interview of carmack i found, this is a development version and those things that HMZ has will go automatically up and aren't an issue at all.

HMZ is not VR at all, it's a 3DTV strapped onto your eyes.


Rift and Doom3 BFG will be playable at QuakeCon for everyone. http://www.own3d.tv/QuakeCon/live/95671

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

It's a question of whether its worth it to you to pay $300 to get it 9-12 months earlier. (for me, the answer is HELL YEAH, but I can certainly see that it wouldn't be for everyone)

Though I'm not certain at all about the "cheaper" part, especially with a better screen.

I suppose you can buy it and then *gulp* sell it when the retail version is released or those interested in SDK.

From reading FAQ, retail version will be much more improved including the compatibility, the aesthetics, higher resolution screen and more, at a price that their "goal is to deliver the highest quality virtual reality experience possible at a price that gamers can afford".

I guess I'll still get it especially since the resolution won't be a big difference when playing console or handheld games once it's made compatible to those (though it uses DVI instead of HDMI so audio will have a separate channel if I am correct).

Imagine playing a game like Dishonored or Battlefield 3 with this! *drools*

 

[DieH@rd]

Isn't it a bit cheaty for those people who have to work with 90 degree FOV to play against someone with natural FOV?

Professional Q3 players use higher FOV settings than ordinary users. I personally used between 110 and 120.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Isn't it a bit cheaty for those people who have to work with 90 degree FOV to play against someone with natural FOV?

Some games are hardwired at a FOV (usually a shitty one like 70). I personally couldn't play Mass Effect 2 until I changed the FOV to 90. For games where increasing the FOV creates an advantage it may be an issue (as in the in game FOV cannot be tuned). I can see this being an issue with console games obviously.

 

[DieH@rd]

I simply cannot play some games with low FOV on my PC sitting in front of 32" monitor [for example Syndicate].

 

[Stealth20k]

Outside vantage point? Playing on a traditional screen is more akin to watching what's outside through a window, from several feet away.

Rift moves you closer to the window. Whether that window be first person, third person, well above the action (RTS), etc... If it makes you feel better, this will probably still be a niche product for the next decade.

Edit: And that doesn't mean it will change afterwards, necessarily. Just as likely to die and be replaced with something else.

For me immersion is, how much can you get into this world. I think that can be achieved through gameplay, sound, characters, as much as this is what I am saying.


I just dont like the thought proccess that somehow there wasnt immersion before this

 

[BlueTsunami]

For me immersion is, how much can you get into this world. I think that can be achieved through gameplay, sound, characters, as much as this is what I am saying.


I just dont like the thought proccess that somehow there wasnt immersion before this

Odd that you're focused on various other aspects and yet video is 'good enough' for you and you seem to be cooking up arguments out of thin air. The argument for VR has been more immersion not the creation of immersion where there was none.

 

[Stealth20k]

Odd that you're focused on various other aspects and yet video is 'good enough' for you and you seem to be cooking up arguments out of thin air. The argument for VR has been more immersion not the creation of immersion where there was none.

I am just telling you what ive been reading. More immersion at the cost of screen resolution being able to look at other things not on the screen, ect.

Its a neat product, but I just dont see the wide appeal yet.

 

[jack.]

I suppose you can buy it and then *gulp* sell it when the retail version is released or those interested in SDK.

This is pretty much what I'm anticipating doing. I think there will be a large enough demand and small enough supply that if you want to eBay it once the retail version is near release, you won't take much of a loss.

 

[Stewox]

Some games are hardwired at a FOV (usually a shitty one like 70). I personally couldn't play Mass Effect 2 until I changed the FOV to 90. For games where increasing the FOV creates an advantage it may be an issue (as in the in game FOV cannot be tuned). I can see this being an issue with console games obviously.

It was 65, it was between 2007 to 2010 the time of total blatant xbox ports.

I couldn't play a minute, because my eyes hurt and I got all dizzy, blyak. Ofcourse i hacked and tweaked the heck out of any game to get me at least 80 FOV for then 19' LCD, those that couldn't be hacked i just didn't play, but I don't buy so much games today, bought 3 last year, none this year yet, if it happens it's going to be starcraft hots.

 

[DieH@rd]

FOV of ~85-90 is a sweetspot for me, but not for all types of games.

 

[Throwaway123456789]

I just dont like the thought proccess that somehow there wasnt immersion before this

Are people saying this?

For me immersion is, how much can you get into this world.

This puts your head inside the game world with a huge field of view. Isn't that pretty much the best we can do at the moment? It's not like the games will suddenly lack sound, story and gameplay.

 

[Stealth20k]

@FoxHimself

Yes and I know what it does, I dont need it explained, thanks.

 

[Zaptruder]

many things lead to immersion..........

a big screen isnt the only way

Sorry but when I play a game Id rather get the outside vantage point. thats just me

Oh shut it you ignorant goof.

First you go "Why do you need this? Do you even have a 100" screen??", then you follow up with "well, big screen isn't the only important point of immersion."

You're a know nothing that would do well to read and comprehend before you pipe up again.

Seriously though, the window analogies are not appropriate in this context - the big point is that the rift doesn't just give you a big screen - as you move your head, so does your view point.

Just close your eyes - imagine a gameworld that you like. Keep your eyes closed - turn your head; imagine that you continue to look at another part of the world. Move your head down - now you're looking at something closer than before.

This level of immersion is so beyond anything else that we can do now. To test it mentally - imagine controlling your daily activities through a controller looking at a TV screen. Visuals are absolutely perfect, but you have to interact with the world not with your arms or legs - only with a controller. And you don't see the world with your eyes - only see the world sitting from your chair, looking at your TV screen.

 

[bee]

Professional Q3 players use higher FOV settings than ordinary users. I personally used between 110 and 120.

ctf players do sure, the majority of pro duellers use 90 fov though, which is the default in Q3

 

[Stealth20k]

Oh shut it you ignorant goof.

First you go "Why do you need this? Do you even have a 100" screen??", then you follow up with "well, big screen isn't the only important point of immersion."

You're a know nothing that would do well to read and comprehend before you pipe up again.

Nobody is getting heated but you, chill out.

 

[Throwaway123456789]

@FoxHimself

Yes and I know what it does, I dont need it explained, thanks.

Who is saying this? As BlueTsunami said, it's not like anyone thinks this is the inventor of immersion or something like that.

My point wasn't to explain what it does to you, it was to point out your flawed logic. A game with great characters, story, sound, gameplay and graphics might be immersive indeed, but it will be even more so if the Rift can deliver what it promises.

You might like your 100" projector (I love my 60" TV too!), but you can't compare the immersion a large flat panel gives to this at all, no matter how good the criterias you posted are in the game. It's two entirely different things.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

sub'ed

 

[Tobor]

This is way more interesting to me than 3D tv's. I won't need to wear my normal glasses since the screens are inches away from my eyes.

 

[Stealth20k]

Who is saying this? As BlueTsunami said, it's not like anyone thinks this is the inventor of immersion or something like that.

My point wasn't to explain what it does to you, it was to point out your flawed logic. A game with great characters, story, sound, gameplay and graphics might be immersive indeed, but it will be even more so if the Rift can deliver what it promises.

You might like your 100" projector (I love my 60" TV too!), but you can't compare the immersion a large flat panel gives to this at all, no matter how good the criterias you posted are in the game. It's two entirely different things.

And I am saying at a lower resolution, something stuck to your face, it probably wont be.

But lets move on, this is going in circles

 

[Zaptruder]

This is way more interesting to me than 3D tv's. I won't need to wear my normal glasses since the screens are inches away from my eyes.

I don't think that's how it works...

 

[Wix]

As Tobor pointed out, the screens are inches away from your eyes. Wont this hurt your eyes?

 

[dollartaco]

And I am saying at a lower resolution, something stuck to your face, it probably wont be.

But lets move on, this is going in circles

What do you mean move on? Why not just exit the thread for a device that you don't even like?

 

[dollartaco]

I don't think that's how it works...

That's exactly how it works.

 

[Stealth20k]

What do you mean move on? Why not just exit the thread for a device that you don't even like?

If everyone didnt post in topics for things they didnt like, nobody would post in anything to be honest.

Try telling a ff hater in a square thread, not to post if they dont like lol

 

[7Th]

No wonder this project got such hardcore funding; they got Gaben's attached to it.

 

[Alexlf]

As Tobor pointed out, the screens are inches away from your eyes. Wont this hurt your eyes?

The optics put the focus point at near "infinity", so it feels like you're focusing on something far away.

 

[Zaptruder]

That's exactly how it works.

Well if you're going to be patronizing AND ignorant, then I'll just have to kindly inform you that no, that's not how this stuff works - because your eyes can't focus on things a few inches away - these devices have optics that increase the practical viewing distance, pushing it anywhere from a couple meters out to infinity - depending on the particular of the optics.