The Metal Face
Member
That's what I'm trying to say to the guy I quoted. There are people way worse off than us black people. I'm sure Turkey loves their sole red devil, with blue lego hair covered in oil representative.
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Officer Chun-Li costume spotted in latest SFV beta, also some other lame costumes
- Thread starter Warxard
- Start date
That's what I'm trying to say to the guy I quoted. There are people way worse off than us black people. I'm sure Turkey loves their sole red devil, with blue lego hair covered in oil representative.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Maybe I went too far there, and I can only assume as I'm not Arab so if someone is they can give me their take, but I'd imagine that someone who is Arab wouldn't really want every Arab character to look so stereotypically Arab.
To me it's like if every Japanese character in the games wore a kimono or something, since they're Japanese and OF COURSE they wear kimonos. But it's not the case. For the Japanese characters you've got Ryu wearing a cool gi, Karin, Mika, and while there's stereotypical characters like schoolgirl Sakura and sumo wrestler E. Honda, there's some nice variety there.
So between Tekken 7 and SFV, both characters look identifiably Arab to the point where you don't have to point it out. There's nothing wrong with this per se because the games have a World Warrior type theme going. While his attire is traditonal, it feels like they're screaming at you that this character is Arab. There's nothing necessarily wrong with it, but is it not possible to do an Arab character that you can tell is Arab is and still doesn't feel so stereotypical? It's like having a Mexican character wear a poncho. Sure, Mexican's wear ponchos. But does it have to be such a defining characteristic in the characters design when there are White American characters that look cool as fuck and aren't designed so stereotypically? Guile for instance. There's nothing stereotypical about his character.
That's what I mean.
But this factors into what I mentioned earlier about how I feel the World Warrior element of SF is really outdated and in our more globalized world of 2016 just feels unnecessary and boring. It's not a surprise that Rashid's character design is deemed boring by many. Just slap him in traditional Arab garb and you're good. There's an inherent feeling of laziness compared to the amount of effort put into redesigning Charlie looking like the badass he does now, comparing it side by side to Rashid's design. That doesn't mean it IS lazy, but that's the general feeling for me.
I guess I just prefer Virtua Fighter's way of handling things. It's a world warrior fighter and while some characters are what you'd expect (Chinese monk, for instance), there's a consistency there in VF's characters that make them all sort of fit.
What I'm saying can be reduced to: if you're going to make a character does it really need to represent that areas more stereotypical look? Notice that Abel for instance is French, but he's wearing a cool ass judo gi and shit. Juri is Korean and wears cool baggy pants and has those buns. But when you make the first Arab SF character you go with the safest thing, the most stereotypical thing? When making a Turkish Oil wrestler you make him look like an alien? You see where I'm going with this?
Of course, most of this is made pointless in the era of alt costumes, but who knows? Almost all of Dee Jay and Balrog's costumes in IV can be reduced to "I'm Jamaican" or "I'm a Black thug" so there isn't a guarantee for Rashid having better alternatives unfortunately.
Does that make any sense?
zedreamcast
Member
I know i love my countries luchador whos attacks are all named after mexican food
I'm not understanding this "single respectable black character" thing that's been brought up here. Let's look at this game series in general.
- You have a wandering Japanese man who uses a fighting style which a lot of casual fans think is karate with fireballs.
- You have a blonde American who a lot of casuals think is literally Ken from Barbie except in fighting form (they damn sure used to think it was a reference back in the day hence the last name Masters).
- You've got an American with the flag on his arm with army gear on.
- Japanese schoolgirl with the school uniform as well.
- Huge wrestling Russian who sounds like damn near every WWE/F Russian/Bulgarian wrestler you can think of.
- Boxing African-American who's made after Mike Tyson who's black.
- Indian man who spits fire and I ain't talking no mixtape.
- Asian man who was Bruce Lee clone #234 when he was invented, still is.
There's tons more but SF, and tons of other fighting games, this isn't anything new. You can go down the line and see this, same for Tekken, Mortal Kombat does as well. With that said I have to wonder why people think this is a big shocker because, honestly speaking, a lot of these characters were created this way in the beginning for people to easily identify. However, you have others on the lineup who don't fit any kind of stereotype you can think of. It goes both ways.
Basically I'm saying we have stereotypes for characters and some we don't have stereotypes. The longer the series goes on, the less stereotypical new characters are. Look at the mid-late 90s for example, the SF3 era. Elena, Sean, Alex for example. If Alex were made around 1990 you damn sure he would have looked like Hulk Hogan. Now you look to the SF4 era, Viper? It's not like she's some blonde with huge breasts dressed like she's in Baywatch.
I mean, Namco for example asked for help from people who live in the Middle East in regards to Shaheen's character. They asked about looks, fighting styles, how people dress and fight over there. They wanted to make sure they got an accurate representation of someone in the 2010s who looks like they live in said area.
How did he end up looking?
You mean to tell me that people can get bent out of shape over a guy who looks like this after all the help they've gotten from people who live in said area with said knowledge? Same thing happened with Rashid and people automatically jump the gun.
Come on now dog.
Now finally to the drama with "characters who don't have enough clothes", let's bring this up.
Chilllllllll.
- You have a wandering Japanese man who uses a fighting style which a lot of casual fans think is karate with fireballs.
- You have a blonde American who a lot of casuals think is literally Ken from Barbie except in fighting form (they damn sure used to think it was a reference back in the day hence the last name Masters).
- You've got an American with the flag on his arm with army gear on.
- Japanese schoolgirl with the school uniform as well.
- Huge wrestling Russian who sounds like damn near every WWE/F Russian/Bulgarian wrestler you can think of.
- Boxing African-American who's made after Mike Tyson who's black.
- Indian man who spits fire and I ain't talking no mixtape.
- Asian man who was Bruce Lee clone #234 when he was invented, still is.
There's tons more but SF, and tons of other fighting games, this isn't anything new. You can go down the line and see this, same for Tekken, Mortal Kombat does as well. With that said I have to wonder why people think this is a big shocker because, honestly speaking, a lot of these characters were created this way in the beginning for people to easily identify. However, you have others on the lineup who don't fit any kind of stereotype you can think of. It goes both ways.
Basically I'm saying we have stereotypes for characters and some we don't have stereotypes. The longer the series goes on, the less stereotypical new characters are. Look at the mid-late 90s for example, the SF3 era. Elena, Sean, Alex for example. If Alex were made around 1990 you damn sure he would have looked like Hulk Hogan. Now you look to the SF4 era, Viper? It's not like she's some blonde with huge breasts dressed like she's in Baywatch.
I mean, Namco for example asked for help from people who live in the Middle East in regards to Shaheen's character. They asked about looks, fighting styles, how people dress and fight over there. They wanted to make sure they got an accurate representation of someone in the 2010s who looks like they live in said area.
How did he end up looking?
You mean to tell me that people can get bent out of shape over a guy who looks like this after all the help they've gotten from people who live in said area with said knowledge? Same thing happened with Rashid and people automatically jump the gun.
Come on now dog.
Now finally to the drama with "characters who don't have enough clothes", let's bring this up.
Chilllllllll.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
A Black female grappler. There's barely any Black women in fighting games and even less female grapplers. She can be Laura's rival!
There was backlash by white kotaku type peeps to Rashid for this before.
Arabs who were at the show and in the region were just like "you know everyone wears that here right? It's hot as fuck"
Seems like complaining about a teenager wearing a t-shirt.
If representation is just "character has a similar skin color as me", than Africans and Indians would be "represented" just as equally by Elena and Dhalsim and Evil Ryu.
Maybe some people find it a bit odd that blond/white haired, blue eyed, Africans or Africans without Afro-ethnic features may be just as equally represented as the majority. Or maybe that's just how some perceive it. It's not a nice thing to say, but there's nothing pleasant about this kind of discussion anyway.
Maybe some people find it a bit odd that blond/white haired, blue eyed, Africans or Africans without Afro-ethnic features may be just as equally represented as the majority. Or maybe that's just how some perceive it. It's not a nice thing to say, but there's nothing pleasant about this kind of discussion anyway.
Or it could be of another thing, like seriously why are you so hellbent on this?
I'd take a lot of other minorities or underrepresented nationalities/ethnicities over one more black character.
zedreamcast
Member
Im mexican and i find both of the mexican fighters racist. They decided Mexican wrestler and native american with an eagle. Also
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
The problem with your stance is that you're being extremely selective and dismissive of portrayals you don't consider ideal, and that's a similar bias as those who only picture people of these groups as looking a certain way. Like for example, recently I just rewatched an episode of Flavor of Love. I don't know why, but I did. And Flavor Flav, of course, acts rambunctiously and like a clown. I can see how acting that way is considered a negative stereotype to a degree.
However, I definitely recall many people saying he looked like a stereotype as well, even when you remove the clock and the horns and just put him in normal clothes. These are the same sorts who'd claim Harriet Tubman looks like a stereotype, etc. And for a while I agreed with that without question, but lately I decided to look within myself and wonder....if I'm the problem in supporting that train of thought.
I imagine you would have a problem with a black character who looked like Flavor Flav in a game, and consider that a stereotype. But what if there are black people who happen to look like Flav? If you're saying that's a stereotype don't they have just as much a right to say you're discriminating against them b/c they don't meet an ideal of beauty you prefer when it comes to black representation? Wouldn't you (or others) considering that a stereotype, say more about you than it does about that type of person?
That shouldn't be used as a cop-out excuse by devs to only put in black people of that description within their works, but more as a cautionary tale for those who demand only one specific type of representation, as that eventually limits and typecasts the gamut either way. We also need to understand that there are positive, negative, and neutral stereotypes.
Balrog/Bison, for example, I would consider a neutral stereotype. He's based off of boxer Mike Tyson's early/mid-90s persona, and was extremely accurate to that in a simplified way. Balrog doesn't represent all black people....he doesn't have to, anyway. And in fact, Rashid is another example of someone I'd classify as a neutral stereotype, and there may be those who see him as a positive stereotype (myself, for example).
Why? Well, he doesn't embody any of the personality traits associated with negative portrayals of Arabs in the media. He's not a crazed Quran-quoting terrorist lunatic. He doesn't talk about bombs or degrading women, preaching hatred for the West, etc. To me he seems like a normal guy, maybe something of a playful rich guy (like Ken) who just happens to be Arab. Same with F.A.N.G. in terms of being a neutral stereotype, Chun-Li being a positive stereotype, etc. People should really go study more on the fuller use of the word and understand that not all stereotypes are inherently negative.
Also, I remember that Hugo thread. I posted there. I still stand by my positions in that thread. Who are we to infer the artist's intent without them saying as such? If the contextual evidence is strong enough than yeah, but often it isn't and we see just as many people claiming a character "can't possibly be black" in those instances because reasons, as we see people attempting to claim certain fair-skinned anime characters as being white because they may happen to have blond hair or blue eyes.
In both cases, you're already working with pre-conceived notions of what qualifies as "black" or "white" or whatever in your head, and often times those notions are based on exaggerated expectations. And usually the justification of people falling on those arguments goes back to details that essentially boil down to stereotypes, usually negative stereotypes to be specific.
The more alarming thing is how easy/swiftly people seem to dismiss a character as being black or another given ethnic minority if they don't meet all the checkboxes upon a first glance. It's like mentally putting a barrier in front of yourself for no good reason. I think people should just slow down and get to know the characters more as characters first before then trying to dismiss them possibly being this or that, because by that point, even if they're able to then more astutely identify a character's ethnicity, they'll realize how little that matters in defining the character (a well-written character, mind you) and relating with them to a large extent.
EDIT: Also, Guile is literally a walking stereotype. The difference is in knowing what type of stereotype he is. He technically falls into a neutral/positive stereotype, but I'm sure there are some who may see him as a negative stereotype, as as those who see Balrog as such. I can't say they're wrong in thinking that, just that I'm likely able to argue against their idea of them being negative much better than they are in claiming why they're negative.
As a Native American guy, let's see what we got...
... Okay, well maybe his alternate costumes are a bit less stereotypi...
Geez, Capcom! Even G Gundam didn't stereotype that hard!
zedreamcast
Member
lucebuce12
Member
Red Thong, Blue Thong, Fedora and Green Tie alts.
Im mexican and i find both of the mexican fighters racist. They decided Mexican wrestler and native american with an eagle. Also
And then dig deeper and find the concept art for Rufus before they went with fat white guy
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Nailed it.
SixMachine
Member
And then dig deeper and find the concept art for Rufus before they went with fat white guy
Not many Americans have the swag of Kareem Abdul Jabbar. A fat white guy is honestly much more accurate.
Speaking of Rufus and his transformation, I wonder why they didn't go with the black Rufus look instead. After thinking about it, I can sort of see. Black Rufus would have been more serious given how he looks in the pics. It gives me a Ryu/Sagat type of serious rivalry. Standard Rufus however eh, he was too much of a joke to be taken seriously. Maybe they felt they needed another joke character or they felt that Ken didn't need another serious rival like with Ryu.
Eh, weird none the less.
Eh, weird none the less.
zedreamcast
Member
Her old voice in Alpha 3 is the same voice actress who plays Naruto. The more you knowR.Mika sounds exactly like Naruto in the dub, so i made a ninja alternate for mika!
better than the shitty red one!!!
zedreamcast
Member
The only alt costume i want is casual mika in sweat pants and a t shirt with a ponytail or her hair down.
I might be drawing work out mika and n~ko
It always gets like this, don't need to see the future to know we won't be seeing some of them in OTI'm ready for more costume shenanigans
**reads thread
I was honestly hoping more in this direction for alternate costumes. The Mika one is such a weird thing since it doesn't really seem like an "alternate", really.
zedreamcast
Member
The cut off a sleeve and a pant leg on her red alt and slapped the word heat on her thigh and called it a day.
And then dig deeper and find the concept art for Rufus before they went with fat white guy
What could have been
The Shogun of SF!
Still not too late Capcom.
Why do we need joke characters? it's a fighting game...I want FIGHTERS.
OG Rufus looks like a fucking badass fighter, What we got was the Michelin man doing flip kicks.
RockTurtle
Member
In my case. Ive always felt Any poc represents me. I identified with balrog. I identified with laura. I identified even with dhalsim. Heck even mexican characters with the pancho.To me just having a person of color or speaking my language even if they were white was representative. At extreme cases i can even be represented as a westerner by white people in asian works. I guess because i wasnt born in the us i have a different take of the aspect of representation. I know and respect those expectations like cindis because every person is different. The only thing that irks me is when people start saying you arent this or arent that when they arent from that culture or been exposed to it or try to apply their specific to their area issues across cultural boundaries. When people were saying laura wasnt brazilian or black or latina it irked me cause its indirectly saying people like me or my family who looks like her arent who they are. Our identity tarnished by well meaning motiffs.
COUGH COUGH COUGH
Shes doa she doesnt count!
This is how it always goes:I'm ready for more costume shenanigans
**reads thread
News
Excitement
Weird posts about video game ass
People mad at video game ass
The above people begin arguing
Repeat
Just enjoy steps 1 and 2 and then peace out until step 6.
again my bet is that most of these are story releated. Gief and Mika's "alts" are very similar for example so perhaps they team up.
Man this thread is off the rails. Even found some way to open up the Dudley/race conversation in SF. For what its worth, I think Capcom could do a better job representing people of color with more ethnic features and less anime hair or whatever but I'm a real big NON-fan of stuff like "Elena and Dudley aren't Black enough". We come in all shapes and types - we don't all fit a single mold for what is blackness or whatever.
Hyperbole always plays a big role in these sorts of discussions. Between the "slobbering" gifs and "I just don't like it but its an embarrassment to videogames!" talk its the same every time.
Yeah, if Rashid looks boring or stereotypical, its because he was focus-tested into the ground. I can't really blame Capcom here unless you blame them for actually looking for feedback from their Arab partners and consider that a mistake.
Hyperbole always plays a big role in these sorts of discussions. Between the "slobbering" gifs and "I just don't like it but its an embarrassment to videogames!" talk its the same every time.
Yeah, if Rashid looks boring or stereotypical, its because he was focus-tested into the ground. I can't really blame Capcom here unless you blame them for actually looking for feedback from their Arab partners and consider that a mistake.
zedreamcast
Member
Come on capcom dont be a wimp and being back dramatic battles!!!!
Ok, so I probably should keep my mouth shut, but hasn't the entire cast of Street Fighter 2 pretty much been cultural stereotypes? Japanese Wandering Karate Man? Chinese Kung Fu Lady? Sumo Guy? American Black Boxer? French Weirdo? Big-Smiles Rasta? Brazilian Green Monster Man? You know, like you'd see at It's A Small World in Disneyland.
Because not everything needs to be super serious all the time? That's one of the best things about SF and Tekken to me. The weird ass wacky shit.
There is room for both.
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
No that's par the course for Capcom games, only games from them that kind of buck the stereotypes is Resident Evil
I love that about SF too, but when it gives us fucking Rufus and ...ugh El Fuerte, it's terrible.
Bruno_Arrais85
Member
What? No way Elena attitude, outfit or whatever apart from her fighting style screams Brazil.
SoundPulse
Banned
I've been asking for Chun in her officer uniform for years now, so it's great to see it finally come. Laura's is a bit ridiculous, imo.
I'm also still mad about that concept Rufus. I also like this Abel more than the one we got.
I don't know about that, man.
Tequila Gundam is also perfection in mecha form, and I await the day Bandai releases a PG of it.
I'm also still mad about that concept Rufus. I also like this Abel more than the one we got.
As a Native American guy, let's see what we got...
... Okay, well maybe his alternate costumes are a bit less stereotypi...
Geez, Capcom! Even G Gundam didn't stereotype that hard!
I don't know about that, man.
Tequila Gundam is also perfection in mecha form, and I await the day Bandai releases a PG of it.
loooks amaaaazzing
Maintenance
Member
Damn that Laura outfit, so good.
Razzorn34
Member
Eh. It's not terrible, it's just really bland compared to everything the others are getting. I wish it had something more to it.
SneakersSO
Member
I'm going to start my retort by stating - Capcom absolutely has used cultural generalizations as bases for its characters in the past. They usually take inspiration from a real world person or a real-world culture (or both), and distilling them down to commonalities has been something SF has ALWAYS done in Street Fighter, and it extends past the non-white characters. Zangief is a perfect example, as he was a huge generalization/caricature of Russian stereotypes from the late 80s/early 90s (huge, muscle-packed, slightly dim-witted; Ivan Drago from Rocky IV). It's not even like they don't do it to their dev team's own local culture, as E.Honda is a perfect example of a similar approach only for Japan, who came at a time when Yokozuna was popular.
Here's my problem with your critique of Rashid - while there are obviously some calls to cultural generalizations, more specifically the keffiyeh he is wearing on his head (which is common for people of the region he originates from, due to the natural climate of the area), Rashid is actually one of the more culturally 'aware' characters in all of the SF roster. When he was first announced, Capcom stated they worked together with a group that is ultimately going to be publishing SFV in the UAE in his design, and it shows in what we got. If you weren't aware, Rashid's design is derived from the Mevlevi Order, aka whirling dervish.
There is a ton about the Mevlevi that informs Rashid's design, from him constantly moving in neutral (he is maintaining rhythm & continuing his 'dance', if you will) its just that you need to look a little deeper to see its meaning. Not only that, due to this inspiration, Rashid represents one of the better new designs for a potentially Muslim character, that avoids many of the stereotypical trappings that are associated with the religion currently. I'm not Arab, so I can't speak on how Arab's feel Rashid positively or negatively represents them & people from their region. However, I have to give Capcom credit with at least giving way more thought & consideration when creating a character from an underrepresented region, especially since that region has a lot of negativity built-up in its cultural mindset here in the West.
Also, on a sidenote, being Brazilian myself, Laura's alt outfit is possibly one of the best depictions of street & beach wear i've seen on women in Brazil. The only thing off about it are the shorts + thong combo. From my experience, many women in Brazil would either just be wearing a g-string, or a bikini bottom in her shorts, or just shorts - not some crazy high-riding thong + those shorts. Also, the shoes in that outfit are on point for local-wear for Brazilian women.
Abilidebob
Member
Wait how is Laura's outfit ridiculous? Is it ridiculous because it's a beach outfit or because the beach outfit is "too much" or something?
it's bc of bonito
SoRuffShoNuff
Member
Why are you comparing the representation of a race to a nationality? You think black Americans feel represented by Ken and Guile?