Of course she was <3
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Officer Chun-Li costume spotted in latest SFV beta, also some other lame costumes
- Thread starter Warxard
- Start date
Of course she was <3
A creative vision is not an impervious shield to criticism; it also implies, when used to defy a backlash, that creative works are made in a vacuum, which is not true. They're both a reflection of the norms and values which predominate the society that begets them and also a means of further defining those values. The question is are we happy with the values being reinforced? I think it's important to ask these questions - of any game - even if the answer is, "yes, we're okay with it."
The creator doesn't do the criticism.
Yes. I find MKX to look boring. TO ME. Its a matter of taste. I don't like the asthetic. Its not because the women aren't showing skin anymore. I didn't like MK9's look either..I just personally feel like the changes weren't earnestly done but to appeal to the current climate, again not a bad thing and it seems to have brought in new peeps...which is great so it worked out in that case..I just rather not have every game go in that direction is all. If it does, I will have to deal with that I guess.
I also don't subscribe to the ideology that equality = taking away from someone else. I know you can't please everyone so someone always will be hurt. Actually equality would be that there is a fighter (in this example) out there that does appeal to you...and I'm sure there are. That doesn't mean this one has to as well.
idk it just sometimes feel like many (not you) are really going " I don't like thing but instead of just leaving it as that i'm going to say I don't like thing because it is <insert actual cause here> as that will get more people on my side". No one wants to like something that is sexist, racist or the cause of people being hurt....no one. So when something people like is called that, they tend to get upset because it ends up being a few steps away from calling THEM that. If one likes sexist material and sees it as that...then one could make the leap that that person is sexist, no?
also just because there are fuckbois who act like fuckbois doesn't mean everything should change...those dopes will continue to be those dopes. This boogeyman people are chasing here generally will not be the group actually effected by change IMO.
DannyDanger
Member
With all due respect, it doesn't matter what some guys/girls like
What does matter in this case, is the developer is using sexuality for its male AND female characters... So the whole sexist, female exploitation stuff, goes out the window
Ya, too bad the Japanese isn't better. Atleast her english taunt is decent, better than the japanese i guess. But man her recovery sounds get annoying quick.
Banana Aeon
Member
Saying someone deserves to be beaten because of what they are wearing is repulsive.
And you'll notice I didn't say "nudity never belongs". I said it isn't always appropriate. And that's true.
Inversely, I think Bioware having "people showering in their underwear" in ME3 was equally as ridiculous. The context was different and underwear, in that regard, was inappropriate for the situation.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Ultimately, if a male character is half naked but he's not sexualized, how can you say it doesn't matter when it's pretty clear that with in the case of Laura alt or Mika, sexualization is the main goal?
Again, just because a man is half naked does not mean he's sexualized. He could, in the case of Ryu's alt in SFIV with the gi top off, be presented as "cool".
Pretty odd how many men who don't even LIKE or are ATTRACTED to men become experts on male sexuality just because a male character appears half naked as an example of equality. It isn't, it wasn't. Stop saying it.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
NipplesAndToes23
Member
I can co-sign this, especially because when I see dick I move out the way.
Why are half the characters voiced in English and the other half in Japanese?
pineapplepizza
Member
When all these additional SFV threads pop-up separately from the OT and beta threads my first thought is "Damn why aren't these all kept into one or two main threads? That way everyone is in on the same convo and latest updates and I don't have to subscribe to 10 threads about SFV".
Then I sift through embarrassing posts like these and the other thread about the box art advertising and I immediately withdrawal.
YianGaruga
Banned
..but that isn't what I said at all?
Mr_Antimatter
Member
Thought it was interesting that Dragon Age Inq actually went the other way, and had full topless nudity in it, a first for a bioware game. And really, resulted in very literal criticism for it in the end.
OK, makes sense. I don't find anything in SFV inappropriate, given its intended audience, and how it's a crazy cartoony fighting game with nothing realistic in the slightest. But that's just me.
DannyDanger
Member
I don't understand how super-exaggerated shirtless dudes, in leotards, and underwear, can be considered not sexualized
I understand that YOU personally might not find it sexy, but it doesnt change the fact that the devs created sexualized male characters
Cindi Mayweather
Member
lucebuce12
Member
You can use either the Japanese or English voice for any character. Even mix and match so some characters use Japanese while others use English.
The uploader must have changed the voices. Doesn't really matter.
Banana Aeon
Member
I don't like neither.At least Blazblue is fun to play, I guess. Can't say that about MK
At least Guilty Gear used to be fun to play, til Xrd, despite the terrible designs. Blazblue ain't got nothing.
It really doesn't, especially when the only male character you can point to that has a "sexy" variant is Ryu.
Unless you honestly believe that "Doesn't fit into his shadaloo outfit" Birdie or geriatric Indian man is sexy.
The biggest bullshit.
Her point is that little clothing doesn't always equal sexualized. That's a true statement. Just like sexualized doesn't always mean objectified, how context in key in evaluating something, how severity is important, etc. Like I'd agree Urien has a degree of sexuality to him but someone like E-Honda does not. Sagat or Adon? Not really. Abel in some of his outfits? Yes. It's not just "little clothing" that is the deciding factor.
SneakersSO
Member
The last few points you make, you keep establishing this relationship between media depictions of the female form & sexist behavior, when there isn't really a direct correlation between the two. Its never been established. Nor has it ever been established in regards to other areas, such as violent games causing violent behavior/school shootings.
In fact, much of your points are basically "you're not right, because I don't agree with you". When they aren't, they're a call to morality or to some ingrained assumption on how terrible men are because men. Like, you go on & say provocative designs can also be damaging - damaging to who? The fictional characters? People who may share their same gender/race/sexual orientation? No one is making the claim any of these characters create or enforce expectations of reality in any meaningful way. In fact, the reason why many of us turn to various forms of entertainment, like gaming, is specifically because they exist outside of reality.
You can ask people to change things, but they're under zero obligation to do so. Just because you ask & want something, doesn't mean it NEEDS to be delivered. Even if we focus on MKX, a game that approaches its own fictional world & characters with a greater care than any one game in SF ever has as a franchise, we have a dev team that decided it DID want to cater to some external voices, and good for all involved. That doesn't mean all devs should or have to. And its amazing how you're contributing MKX's success to this new design approach, when there are a plethora of other more likely factors to account for.
The overwhelming majority of people who criticize provocative depictions of women, usually do so in equal parts criticizing the audience as well, something you gladly do in your post. But i'm not gonna sit here & judge you or others for what they like or don't like, because quite simply, its the internet, and I know next to nothing about anyone. People have their own, individual reasons for liking what they like, but you're arguing for wanting to judge them since what they 'like' spills over into the real world. How? Where? What about these designs cross the medium and enters reality in a destructive way? Are you seriously saying that guys are going out & committing heinous acts as a result of seeing Laura's outfit?
You didn't like Xrd? Never played it because of the inevitable wasteland that non-Capcom fighting games become, but it looked interesting.
Rashid is pretty hot. He unfortunately doesn't have a shirtless costume yet, but he's sexy.
Well, at least in pictures, his walking animation is kinda weird.
igordennis
Member
Male sexualization is not as simple as female sexualization (which pretty much boils down to show skin+nice physical attributes) no matter how much you want it to be so you can claim that this game is equal in its portrayal of males and females.
Having strong silhouettes has always been something the street fighter series has done well, Guile's hair, Blanca's hunch, Chun-li's legs, Cammy's hips and Hugo's full screen of hulking badass.
I think if these designs and clothing were in sprite form you guys would all be OK with it, the problem primarily is due to the increased graphical fidelity resulting in these stylishly proportioned characters becoming hyper sexualised.
But I can't defend it fully, given the variety of body types they've added to the male characters it's disappointing that they've gone with the lazy option on all the female characters, giving them huge bums, boobs or hips. I think it's the almost implied taboo that they can't create an unattractive female which is disappointing to me. Hopefully some of the DLC characters have more interesting body-types.
I think if these designs and clothing were in sprite form you guys would all be OK with it, the problem primarily is due to the increased graphical fidelity resulting in these stylishly proportioned characters becoming hyper sexualised.
But I can't defend it fully, given the variety of body types they've added to the male characters it's disappointing that they've gone with the lazy option on all the female characters, giving them huge bums, boobs or hips. I think it's the almost implied taboo that they can't create an unattractive female which is disappointing to me. Hopefully some of the DLC characters have more interesting body-types.
Shove your straw men.
You mean someone weird like Dhalsim or FANG? That would be pretty cool.
you are never going to create the perfect balance of "finding things sexy".
There are those out there who like big burly men (ala Gief) but then there is also those who HATE that type). Someone is going to have their jimmies rustled in this case.
thats all this comes down to really. All the talk of things spilling into the real world and such MAY exist but at the end of the day...peeps just don't find things appealing and want it to appeal to them. That;s cool. I personally wish more games would move away from the "realism" kick...but it seems I'm outvoted there.
i get that things are fucked up for Women in this industry. That needs to be better. I also think there is more progress than many think (the afforementioned MKX changes for example), but lately it really feels like some (NOT ALL GODDAM IT) are using it as a crutch to get on things that simply do not appeal to them. I can't really get behind that honestly.
There are those out there who like big burly men (ala Gief) but then there is also those who HATE that type). Someone is going to have their jimmies rustled in this case.
thats all this comes down to really. All the talk of things spilling into the real world and such MAY exist but at the end of the day...peeps just don't find things appealing and want it to appeal to them. That;s cool. I personally wish more games would move away from the "realism" kick...but it seems I'm outvoted there.
i get that things are fucked up for Women in this industry. That needs to be better. I also think there is more progress than many think (the afforementioned MKX changes for example), but lately it really feels like some (NOT ALL GODDAM IT) are using it as a crutch to get on things that simply do not appeal to them. I can't really get behind that honestly.
Troubled Bat
Member
I didn't care about Karin's alternate outfit, until I saw this:
Cindi Mayweather
Member
The purpose is intent.
Men being shirtless is a common thing, but men aren't seen as always sexualized when they have their shirts off.
A lot of the times the purpose of a half naked male character in games isn't sexualization for women or gay men. It's usually just the artist trying to make the character "cool".
Sometimes they'll be sexy but it's sometimes a side effect and not the main goal.
The main goal of Laura's alt is to get dicks hard.
Again, the difference is intent.
Ryu's topless here for sexualization or to look cool? More so the latter than the former.
Raiden is naked but he's not really done so for the purpose of sexualization. It's done for comedy.
THIS is a male character made for the purpose of sexualization.
or even THIS.
of course, this has the caveat that not all women are the same or have the same taste in men. I personally like tall, muscle-y guys, but even then, it's not like all men have the same taste in women either.
I highly suggest you read this thread before continuing further. Us ladies and gay guys have discussed to death in a fantastic thread months old.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1137134
What you're doing now is applying male sexuality to female sexuality. Many of us don't get turned on by the same shit you do or even in the same way. Deal with it.
Because you can choose on a per character basis which language you'd like them to speak.
A PS3 screenshot?
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
Roll
No, I said society in general doesn't go on shooting sprees all the time, but casual sexism remains a rampant problem that affects women on a daily basis.
That is not the fault of games, but rather games reflect that ingrained culture and society. Games are a mirror to this behavior and reinforce it, while not necessarily being the cause of it. It's the symptom, not the root...
... But sometimes it's alright to at least address the symptoms along the way.
Women in general.
Just because something is fictitious doesn't mean it doesn't matter. Some of the most influential acts of history were found in works of fiction, and great reform and revolution started through fiction. Uncle Tom's Cabin, Invisible Man, The Jungle... fiction, but life-changing.
Fiction can and does impact the world at large.
True, you can't do a Hadoken in real life (to my knowledge), but some things, such as a leering portrayal of women or an emphasis on female sex traits, definitely establish that what they're showing isn't "outside of reality"... it's the norm for video games. It's the expectation. Big, busty, scantily clad women vastly out-populate sensible, realistically sized ones by a large margin. And, even if YOU turn to gaming entertainment to escape into a world where sexist portrayals are okay, WOMEN play games too... and they don't escape anything. it's in the real world and the video game world.
Nope. But it doesn't hurt to ask and, inversely, it doesn't hurt to listen. You don't have an obligation to do anything, but it's sometimes wise to listen to feedback.
I write comics, and the feedback I've received has opened my eyes to bias and prejudice I never knew I had before.
Bioware once admitted they had a huge romance planned for one of their games and all the men were on board... until some of their female developers spoke to them and said it wasn't appropriate. All the men didn't even think of it as harmful or inappropriate, but when the women explained their grievances, they admitted it absolutely was problematic and needed to be changed.
What I said was the sex appeal did not harm or contribute to the success of the franchise EITHER way, thus you could cut back on it and not affect sales. This is correct. MKX's strengths weren't in its sex appeal.
The depictions exist because the audience for them exists.
Well I will. "Like what you like" is not a valid excuse. Pedophiles like what they like (extreme example). When what you "like" affects someone else in a negative way, what you "like" is inappropriate and should be challenged.
No, but it reinforces a standard countless millions are sick of.
Watch some Feminist Frequency. Talk to a few women in the gaming industry.
This is a problem. The first step to solving any problem is admitting there is one.
Eh, I mean let's look at this. This is Capcom, I'm not sure about the full ratio but you have guys like Ono on there, they're a Japanese company as well. It might just be me but I get a feeling that their idea of what's sexual to women would be pretty skewed compared to how most women might generally think. By that I mean while you're saying this there's no doubt in my mind that most men in that company would say "ok, let's have this buff dude with a shirt off, he looks badass and I'm sure women will love him" and a lot agree. Sure in generally what you say is accurate but I'm just not sure Capcom fully agrees given how they've done things for the longest time.
I'm not an "expert" on what makes women attracted to men but I don't think anyone can convince me that all of Capcom as a whole thinks the same as you considering this. I don't think they'd look that deep into it personally. I can literally see someone in the offices show a picture of a shirtless Akuma and have another guy nod his head saying "yeah this will get the girls rollin" before heading off to design the costume.
I just don't have faith in that company regarding this. They're not exactly the sharpest knives in the book.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
I do wonder why Ryu's new alt is dubbed Hot Ryu when he basically the same thing in IV except with dirt and without the beard.
lucebuce12
Member
Muscles are much more pronounced and detailed, the general aesthetic of the game is much more "realistic" and less cartoony than IV, and he has a dope beard.
Vlaphor
Member
Is this the reason why DOA5, Metal Gear Solid V and Witcher 3 sold so well? Hyperbole makes it difficult to take an argument seriously.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Facial hair makes it.
It's subtle differences.
His costume in IV is worn. In V it's not. In V he has more muscle definition AND facial hair, which is always fucking hot.
And sublety is all that matters when it comes to sexualization.
Because they sold well doesn't mean some aren't sick of it.
Yeah, it's really awful and her scripted dialogue is pretty bad on top of it
But on the plus side it's less cringe worthy than English Sakura in SFIV.
DannyDanger
Member
Now i'm confused, is this discussion about physical sexualization or not?
I thought we were talking in relation to the revealing costumes??
I'm not gonna pretend to know everything that attracts a female to a male
But i know for sure, some women like show skin + nice physical attributes, just as much as men. Otherwise, male models, strippers etc, wouldn't exist...
So if the dev is doing that with both genders, i'm not seeing the issue...
i'm not trying to claim it's not a problem in media, but if you're gonna accuse this creator of being a sexist-perv (not you specifically) then you have to look at the whole picture
Cindi Mayweather
Member
The beta and character thread for SFV has a lot of annoying shit like "where's the sf3 characters fam??? How come SF3 always ignored?!" so I don't bother reading or posting in it often because there's not too much concrete gameplay analysis until a beta phase happens. Trust me that when SFV drops I'll be getting mileage outta that thread.
igordennis
Member
See that comment from a female fellow gaffer above and in particular the thread she linked
Post#1584.
Vlaphor
Member
Some sure, but saying that millions of people are sick of it just seems absurd.