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MightyHedgehog · Nov 3, 2004

efralope said:
while America went to war under a false pretense, it also went to war under true pretenses, like Saddam's UN violations, refusal to provide evidence to inspectors about wherabouts of weapons (or former weapons), payments to families of Palestinian suicide bombers, and human rights issues...

Weapons of mass destruction were the major issue, but it wasn't everything... I think Americans realize that...

I disagree. What we did should have been the last resort. I support our troops and feel we need to bring the current military/political situation to a carefully-navigated and logical close, but I don't care for the misguided, highly-suspect reasoning that led us to that action in the first place. Our administration simply did not exhaust all available options before going into military action. Extreme naivete, bull-headed reactionism, and a questionable agenda led us to where we are now. It's something that did not need to happen...at least, not in the way it was handled.

soundwave05 · Nov 3, 2004

Damn, Kerry absolutely dominated with 18-29 year olds, it's too bad more of them didn't get out and vote.

Seth C · Nov 3, 2004

nathkenn said:
thats sort of beside the point since he been fucking up as president for the last for years

How much Bush has or has not screwed up has nothing to do with the potential hypocrisy that was in question.

Do The Mario · Nov 3, 2004

Well Americans could just move to Candia or Australia for four more years?

Yay for welfare and public health care

Norway, Sweden, Australia, Canada and the Netherlands ranked as the best five countries to live in by the united nations.

Maybe it has something to do with spending money on welfare and health care instead of suspect wars?

XMonkey · Nov 3, 2004

f_elz said:
Sorry your wrong. There are still provincial ballots.

Sigh...

What do you think I'm talking about? It could be nothing but provisional ballots because that's all there is left to be counted (plus some absentee ballots, but not a very significant amount). What do you think the reports on the internet and the pundits on TV are talking about? The provisional ballots.

fse · Nov 3, 2004

soundwave05 said:
Damn, Kerry absolutely dominated with 18-29 year olds, it's too bad more of them didn't get out and vote.

Yes, but Ohio, Ohio, Ohio.

soundwave05 · Nov 3, 2004

Well I'm guessing Ohio had some 18-29 year olds that were too lazy to register to vote.

Stuff like that though should wake you up if that's the case, too many times people say "well I can't make a difference, why bother", and maybe they are right 9 out of 10 times, but that 1 time that it does bite you in the ass probably doesn't feel too great.

Fresh Prince · Nov 3, 2004

Do The Mario said:
The FTA was a positive for the Australian economy what the hell are you smoking?
Please tell me how we got ass raped.

500,000 casual jobs is a great achievement, many small businesses cant afford full or part time employees.

Personally I have two casual jobs because I am a full time university student and I dont have the time to work full time.

The federal government is not talking about hospital funding but MEDICARE, they are two vastly different things.

The labour party trys to make hospitals and schools a federal issue but they are state issues. My jobs might be abolished under the labour partys reforms.

On FTA:
Agriculture. No Beef Imports for 18 years. Restricted Parrelling Importing. Let's face it the FTA was a pat on the back for Iraq. The truth is we compete with them on most things, their 'American Heartland' is at odds with our 'Outback Soul'. For a pat on the back it put our PBS at risk (luckily that hole was somewhat covered). Also the irony that sugar can farmers are less important that timber workers makes it funny (I wonder what that could be about). Maybe 'ass raped' is an embelishment but we certainly got the short end of the stick.

On Causal Employment:
Yes I realise both of these things however employees are not always students or stay at home mothers. link Anyway the worst thing I can think of is to come out of uni and work as a casual after $20,000 of fees.

On Medicare:
Agreed.

On Education:
Agree to Disagree.

What I saw this election was short term vote buying. As well as the misnomer that the economy strictly runs on fiscal policy.

Edit: I'm going to sleep now

Alcibiades · Nov 3, 2004

MightyHedgehog said:
I disagree. What we did should have been the last resort. I support our troops and feel we need to bring the current military/political situation to a carefully-navigated and logical close, but I don't care for the misguided, highly-suspect reasoning that led us to that action in the first place. Our administration simply did not exhaust all available options before going into military action. Extreme naivete, bull-headed reactionism, and a questionable agenda led us to where we are now. It's something that did not need to happen...at least, not in the way it was handled.

I agree with what you here but that doesn't make what I posted untrue...

Kuroyume · Nov 3, 2004

FAILURE

Do The Mario · Nov 3, 2004

Wow fresh prince its good debating things with someone who isnt so narrow minded.
Anyway the FTA is not a bad thing for the economy but its probably a slight benefit but the government did make the FTA sound more beneficial then it is, (personally I cant blame them.)

Casual Employment growth is good but there was also significant growth in the full time employment. If I dont get a job out of University I will get a scholarship to do my diploma of education or I will go back and do honors. I also want to get involved in politics when I am older.

I will agree to disagree but those ads on television done by the teachers union were very misleading.

Anyway what state do you live in? Myself Western Australia

Ill Saint · Nov 3, 2004

Australias healthcare is down the shitter. I fear having to ever go to hospital here, what with lack of beds, nurses etc... plus our Prime Minister cannot stop trying to mount Bush.

MightyHedgehog · Nov 3, 2004

efralope said:
I agree with what you here but that doesn't make what I posted untrue...

It certainly is untrue, for me. We didn't need to do what we did. Why go into Iraq in the manner that we did when, really, the necessity of doing so wasn't there? WMDs? Tenous Al Qaeda ties? I just don't see it. We have the single-greatest, most-capable organization of world-intelligence gathering and expertise in the world.

With the way things went before and after the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq, it was clear that there simply was not enough information to justify the military action we persued. Intentionally or not, the American people were mislead and made to believe that what we did was absolutely necessary at the time...when, clearly, it was not. Anyway, that's my assessment and I've yet to see a reason to see it any other way. It was far too politically-motivated, IMO, to be considered anything but a way to blow our load on an 'easy target.'

fse · Nov 3, 2004

Statement from Kerry Campaign Manager Mary Beth Cahill on Ohio

"The vote count in Ohio has not been completed. There are more than 250,000 remaining votes to be counted. We believe when they are, John Kerry will win Ohio."

Alcibiades · Nov 3, 2004

SFA_AOK said:
Stats galore, sorry if posted already but some really interesting stuff here:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

interesting:

-Bush won the Catholic vote overall, and won devout Catholics but lost slighly more loose Catholics...

-he improved among Black and Hispanic vote...

-He got 40% of the Hispanic vote

-He got 23% of the GLBT vote

-39% of responded had pro-life stance

-Bush won the pro-civil union vote (51-48%) and got 22% of pro-same sex marriage vote

-Bush lost the Jewish vote, but improved by 5 points to 24% this year...

Seth C · Nov 3, 2004

f_elz said:
Sorry your wrong. There are still provincial ballots.

You mean "you're" don't you? It's the contraction of "you are." You're right, Republicans are the uneducated idiots.

nathkenn · Nov 3, 2004

i was reading several of the news sites methods for projections and they all also seemed to not count early votes, they said instead they used phone polls to found out who early voters chose, funny i didnt get a call and i voted for kerry

soundwave05 · Nov 3, 2004

The non-whites hate Bush, lol. I think Bush made some inroads with the Cuban community though to be able to win like that in Florida especailly.

AniHawk · Nov 3, 2004

Seth C said:
Republicans are the uneducated idiots.

Watch it. My dad and his parents are Republicans.

Dead · Nov 3, 2004

If theres one thing worse than a bush supporter, its the fucking online grammar police. Or even worse, both at the same time.

Do The Mario · Nov 3, 2004

Ill Saint said:
Australias healthcare is down the shitter. I fear having to ever go to hospital here, what with lack of beds, nurses etc... plus our Prime Minister cannot stop trying to mount Bush.

Please you dont know what youre talking about; Australia has a PBS and public healthcare system that is one of the finest in the world.

The only problem is bulk billing rates have dropped but Medicare + and the Private health rebate make up for this.

Fresh Prince · Nov 3, 2004

After this I'm going to sleep

I live in Victoria, anyway I wouldn't mind joining the Labour Party but I don't want to get my alligiences in too early. On that political compass that floats around on the internet I was exactly in the middle (dead centre)- I don't want to ruin it with my new found liberalism

Seth C · Nov 3, 2004

AniHawk said:
Watch it. My dad and his parents are Republicans.

It was sarcasm on my part.

iapetus · Nov 3, 2004

efralope said:
interesting:

[blah]

Looking at the breakdowns he also seems to have won about 9% of the Democrat vote.

Can I get a WTF?

Seth C · Nov 3, 2004

DeadStar said:
If theres one thing worse than a bush supporter, its the fucking online grammar police. Or even worse, both at the same time.

I wasn't going to go there, but he had just stated Bush supporter were idiots. When you start slinging mud like that, you've placed yourself on a pedestal and therefore bring yourself under more intense scrutiny.

I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise.

fse · Nov 3, 2004

...on several swing states, and EVERY STATE that has EVoting but no paper trails has an unexplained advantage for Bush of around +5% when comparing exit polls to actual results.

In EVERY STATE that has paper audit trails on their EVoting, the exit poll results match the actual results reported within the margin of error.

So we have MATCHING RESULTS for exit polls vs. voting with audits

vs.

A 5% unexplained advantage for Bush without audits.

Maybe Dubayah believes God will see him through this, but it's going to take more than blind faith to pull the wool over the data and the facts.

Alcibiades · Nov 3, 2004

MightyHedgehog said:
It certainly is untrue, for me. We didn't need to do what we did. Why go into Iraq in the manner that we did when, really, the necessity of doing so wasn't there? WMDs? Tenous Al Qaeda ties? I just don't see it. We have the single-greatest, most-capable organization of world-intelligence gathering and expertise in the world.

With the way things went before and after the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq, it was clear that there simply was not enough information to justify the military action we persued. Intentionally or not, the American people were mislead and made to believe that what we did was absolutely necessary at the time...when, clearly, it was not. Anyway, that's my assessment and I've yet to see a reason to see it any other way. It was far too politically-motivated, IMO, to be considered anything but a way to blow our load on an 'easy target.'

I didn't mention the tenous Al Qaeda ties...

I don't see how it can be "untrue" that Saddam defied the council, didn't provide evidence or wherabouts of weapons, finanically supported suicide bombings in Israel, and committed human rights atrocities...

Whether or not something is "enough information to justify military action" (which we can agree wasn't there), the issues I laid out existed as justification (though WMD was the big one)...

you can't combine "misguided" and "highly-suspect"... they are very different terms...

Something can be absolutely true (and no supsect) and used as justification, and misguided at the same time...

Seth C · Nov 3, 2004

Haha...at what point did I earn my new tag?

Alcibiades · Nov 3, 2004

soundwave05 said:
The non-whites hate Bush, lol. I think Bush made some inroads with the Cuban community though to be able to win like that in Florida especailly.

actually, I think he got less of the Cuban vote this time around, it was the non-Cuban Hispanics I think he did better with this time than last year...

obviously 40% of Latinos (me included) don't hate him...

soundwave05 · Nov 3, 2004

Well regardless the majority of Latinos still are democratic, by a fair margin at that.

Time to close those borders if you're a Republican, lol.

Do The Mario · Nov 3, 2004

Seth C said:
Haha...at what point did I earn my new tag?

At least you have a tag

Sniff sniff

iapetus · Nov 3, 2004

f_elz said:
...on several swing states, and EVERY STATE that has EVoting but no paper trails has an unexplained advantage for Bush of around +5% when comparing exit polls to actual results.

In EVERY STATE that has paper audit trails on their EVoting, the exit poll results match the actual results reported within the margin of error.

This is nothing to do with EVoting. The voters in the states where the exit polls matched just remembered to wear their official Kerry tin foil hats, and the Bush Orbital Mind-Control Lasers didn't work.

Seth C · Nov 3, 2004

Do The Mario said:
At least you have a tag

Sniff sniff

Hey, I have no complaints. It's a funny play on one of my domain names.

Diablos · Nov 3, 2004

There is still a slim chance for Kerry if he wins Ohio.

Assume Bush gets Iowa and New Mexico; that's 7 votes added to 254, making it 261 as his final electoral vote count. Kerry takes Ohio, and 252 goes to 272. Kerry wins. I just don't know how he is going to, though... republicans will ultimately be making decisions, even if democratic voter turnout ends up being higher in Ohio. They did the same thing to Gore in 2000, who's to say they won't cheat (that's right, I said cheat) themselves into a republican win again?

fse · Nov 3, 2004

Who the fuck changed my av. asshole.

DarienA · Nov 3, 2004

efralope said:
I didn't mention the tenous Al Qaeda ties...

I don't see how it can be "untrue" that Saddam defied the council, didn't provide evidence or wherabouts of weapons, finanically supported suicide bombings in Israel, and committed human rights atrocities...

Whether or not something is "enough information to justify military action" (which we can agree wasn't there), the issues I laid out existed as justification (though WMD was the big one)...

you can't combine "misguided" and "highly-suspect"... they are very different terms...

Something can be absolutely true (and no supsect) and used as justification, and misguided at the same time...

The problem with these other potentially true reasons now being used to justify the war... is that the President didn't mention them in his speech that he gave just before we went in. I just took a quick glance at it to refresh my memory, and the only thing in there that is close to the above is the defying the council part basically. Sorry IMO that's not enough anymore. The speech claims they confirmed that he still had WMD's, and that is the overriding reason why we went in, to prevent their use against us and others. Except when we got there.... no WMD's.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030317-7.html

What are the most recent poll stats on Ohio?

Alcibiades · Nov 3, 2004

iapetus said:
Looking at the breakdowns he also seems to have won about 9% of the Democrat vote.

Can I get a WTF?

-Ed Koch
-Ron Silver
-Zell Miller
-St. Paul mayor
-Youngstown mayor...

Ron Silver terms himself a "9/12 Republican"...

sometimes, security > social issues...

soundwave05 · Nov 3, 2004

Obviously if Kerry by some miracle wins Ohio, he wins the presidency.

belgurdo · Nov 3, 2004

*fires up CNN.com*

Oh my God, I almost fucking fainted. Damn this country

fse · Nov 3, 2004

Anyone going to bed?

nathkenn · Nov 3, 2004

seriously whats up with the early votes in several states, they were leaning heavily democratic in florida and numbered in the hundreds of thousands

XMonkey · Nov 3, 2004

New Mexico and Iowa are 5 and 7 electoral votes, respectively. So 12 more would be added to Bush's total making 266. If he wins Ohio, that makes it 286-252 which is nowhere near as close as 2000's outcome. If Kerry gets Ohio and Bush gets both Iowa and NM, it's 272-266. Which is much closer to the 2000 election (where it was 271-267).

edit - Exit polls proved wrong in several states again this year. I hope news companies stop relying on them so much in future elections...

Alcibiades · Nov 3, 2004

soundwave05 said:
Well regardless the majority of Latinos still are democratic, by a fair margin at that.

Time to close those borders if you're a Republican, lol.

Actually, true, but Democrat != Kerry voter...

I'm a Democrat too, but nationally I voted for Bush...

supposedly, Bush did well in New Mexico in some poor, Mexican Catholic communities because of religion...

little by little, the Republicans are peeling away the Hispanic (especially Mexican I think) vote...

fse · Nov 3, 2004

soundwave05 said:
Obviously if Kerry by some miracle wins Ohio, he wins the presidency.

Yes

AniHawk · Nov 3, 2004

Seth C said:
It was sarcasm on my part.

You don't say?

soundwave05 · Nov 3, 2004

The Catholic Church and Pope denounced the war in Iraq though.

But no one listens to them anymore anyway, so I guess that's moot, lol.

I think it presents an interesting dillemma for the Republicans in the future though, if they support lax immigration and border laws, that might upset their core caucasian/southern base.

A lot of conservatives (and some liberals too) really have a problem with the amount of immigrants coming up from Mexico, but this election for them was all about the terror issue primarily.

Optimistic · Nov 3, 2004

f_elz said:
...Maybe Dubayah believes God will see him through this, but it's going to take more than blind faith to pull the wool over the data and the facts.

Let's see, Crazy conspiracy theory vs the theory that like in any other country, the majority of voters are stupid fucking sheep who can't think for themselves. Sorry man, but the latter is much more plausible.

Drozmight · Nov 3, 2004

*waves minature flag* WOOOooooo.... go....... ker...rryyy..... pffft.

*throws flag in the garbage and turns out the light on the way out*

geogaddi · Nov 3, 2004

Where is the GAF Poll Thread about "which party are you" or "who will you be voting for"?

Alcibiades · Nov 3, 2004

their caucasion vote needs cheap labor, not a big deal...

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