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[Jinjo]

Teams to discuss return of KERS

By Jonathan Noble and Dieter Rencken Friday, April 2nd 2010, 02:25 GMT

The potential return of Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems (KERS) to Formula 1 for 2011 is set to dominate the agenda of a meeting of team principals in Malaysia later today, AUTOSPORT has learned.

The Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) is holding a get-together this evening to discuss the lessons of the first few races, and begin evaluation of improvements that could be made to the sport to improve the show.

Although some of the talks are expected to revolve around technical changes to the cars, sources suggest that one of the main areas of focus to help improving overtaking will be in getting KERS back on the cars.

The green technology was abandoned at the end of last year when teams agreed amongst themselves not to run the devices for 2010, because of the vast expense in successfully developing it. The use of the system remains in F1's technical regulations, however.

AUTOSPORT understands that teams will look at all options for a KERS return in 2011 - ranging from a standard supplier to freeing up the technology totally. Teams will also look at exactly how much, or how little, power the KERS should have.

The momentum behind getting KERS back has been increased because of the difficulties that drivers have faced in overtaking this season - and providing a push-to-pass system once again would help with the racing.

There is also a high chance that revisions to the cars already in the pipeline will help the situation further. Double diffusers have already been banned for 2011, which should cut downforce levels, while it is understood that the FIA is looking at increasing the width of F1's rear tyres to 18 inches for next year - up from the 13 inches of the current generation.

This will produce much more mechanical grip, which should be another factor in helping boost the racing spectacle.

Source

Well KERS was responsible for a lot of the overtakes that took place last year and imo it was kind of a ridiculous decision to do away with it so fast.

Still a nice place for Button even though he says he is struggling. Also am I the only not entirely surprised by the McLaren pace? There is a lot of use for that F-duct here and with the paddock saying the F-duct is actually more useful than KERS the McLaren's have should have some incredible straightline speed. Not surprised by the Red Bull problems, I am still of the opinion it wasn't just 'bad luck' the last 2 races.

 

[Igo]

Chandhok and Senna enjoying themselves in Malaysia

Who is this woman? I've seen her before in other GP pictures.

 

[thechemist]

I hope KERS comes back but as a more reliable form, I also hope for rain this weekend, but but not the storm which erupted last year.

 

[Dead Man]

Ferrari via Twitter

I guess I'm glad I went for the upgrade to Total fuel then...
Edit: Or maybe I'll change to McLaren for fuel... I hate this stuff! :lol

 

[Pimpwerx]

Wow, Hamilton incredibly faster than the others. Is F1-GAF awake?

I was, just not feeling like feeling like posting. McLaren is my pick for this weekend. My bets are gonna pay off well. Problem is, who do I put on my team? Not even the fuel selection seems so obvious. PEACE.

 

[navanman]

Missed all the free practice sessions. Time zone and hangover issues..

McLaren look very strong for the weekend but I don't trust the form of any team until FP3.

 

[navanman]

This has the potential to be huge news and affect Red Bulls chances of the title this year.
Both Red Bull and Ferrari have their mirrors integrated into fully aero parts.

A ban on sidepod mounted mirrors has been delayed until the Spanish Grand Prix, AUTOSPORT has learned, after teams complained to the FIA that there was not enough time to make modifications to their cars in time for the next race.

The governing body told outfits prior to the Malaysian Grand Prix that outboard mirrors were being outlawed on safety grounds from the Chinese GP.

The move came after several near misses in practice and qualifying in Australia, which prompted drivers to speak to F1 race director Charlie Whiting in Melbourne to ask if something could be done to help improve rearward visibility.

Whiting agreed to act and the FIA wanted all mirrors to be mounted on the cockpit from the Chinese Grand Prix.

However, a number of outfits expressed concern that with their cars not returning to Europe prior to Shanghai it was impossible to make the proper modifications in time for the next race.

It is understood that the FIA has agreed to delay the ban until the Spanish Grand Prix in May, which will give teams another few weeks to make the necessary changes.

The move to outlaw outboard mirrors could have a big effect on the aerodynamics of the cars that use them - including championship front-runners Red Bull Racing and Ferrari.

Looks like Red Bull are very concerned about how the outboard mirror band will effect them.

Under a new FIA ruling Red Bull must move their rearview mirrors inboard from China onwards, and an ebullient Vettel says that he is more worried about that than he is about reliability issues this weekend. The FIA and the Grand Prix Drivers’ Association (GPDA) are worried that the mirrors mounted atop the outer edge of sidepods limit rearward visibility.

"We are much more concerned that from the next race we'll all have to run the mirrors inboard and our car is losing quite some performance due to that, but reliability, no problems.

 

[kikanny]

This is going to be a really shitty weekend for Felipe and Ferrari. Not going to bother to wake up at 3 am in the morning to watch the race.

 

[navanman]

Another fantastic update to his blog explaining how the ride height setup may work and the effect of the ban on outboard mirrors.
http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/

Ferrari were the first team to move the wing mirrors from the conventional spot near the cockpit to the edge of the sidepods. Since then most teams have at least trialled the set up. From the next race in China, this mirror location will be banned. Always a controversial part as many see their location and more flexible mounting as hindrance to rear visibility. During their reign the FIA even introduced scrutineering tests to ensure the driver has reasonable rear visibility. But all the problems associated with these mirrors is worth it due to the beneficial aerodynamic location.

A wing mirrors on any vehicle is a bluff and unaerodynamic shape, from the attached CFD you can see how its wake is unsteady and turbulent. The FIA demands mirrors are fitted with a reflective surface 150mm x 50mm this creates quite large surface to streamline. In a conventional position this sends the wake directly downstream towards the rear wing, upsetting its efficiency. Placing these outboard places the mirrors in the already turbulent area of the front wheel wake. Thus the impact of the bluff mirror housing is reduced. With the change in Aero rules in 2009, the mirror placement in this area allowed the pod wing to be taller and have a greater aero influence. However even with the ban on the mirror locations the fin-like podwings will remain, as they sit in a blind spot within the bodywork regulations.

The ban on refuelling creates huge weight differences between qualifying and the race (150kg), this alters ride height considerably (by F1 standards). Already running just 20-30mm off the ground the cars aerodynamics relies on a low ride height to create maximum downforce. Equally having the ride too low height creates wear on the cars underbody skid-blocks set into the ‘plank’, if the wear is excessive the car will be excluded from the results. Furthermore Parc Fermé rule prevents the teams changing settings in between qualifying and the race, so teams need to find a compromise somewhere between set up for the light Q fuel or heavy race fuel. However, if a team were able to find a way to alter the ride height legally in between or indeed through the race then they could have ideal set up for each segment of the weekend. We know teams have ride height adjusters that can be adjusted at the pit stop, these tend not be used as they cannot be used until the first pit stop and with only one stop being the nor for the opening races it appears to be a ’set up’ complication no one wants.

F1 cars suspension tends to adopt similar formats both front & rear and across the teams. Ride height and spring\damping is provided by a pushrod (or Pull rod for Red Bulls rear suspension, which is the same but inverted) which operates a rocker, this rocker has levers operating the torsion bar spring, damper and third (or heave) damper. Ride height it set by the angle of the torsion bar on its splines and fine tuned by the shims in the pushrod. Ride height does get controlled by the heave damper, but only when high aero loads compress the suspension at high speed, as the heave damper has some free travel before it starts to add stiffen the suspension it cant be used for adjusting static ride height. The individual wheel dampers do apply some pressure to the suspension when at rest, but aren’t commonly used for setting ride height.

Repressurisation

Another solution that seems altogether more feasible is the use of the gas charging cylinder within the damper. this cylinder normally acts to offset the motion of the damper rod inside the damper body. Charged with nitrogen, this does create some preload inside the damper. Teams are apparently allowed to recharge the nitrogen cylinder in Parc Fermé. Its believed that if the team were able to over-pressurize the unit after qualifying with a low pressure, it would lengthen the damper, raise the ride height in order to offset the race fuel load.
One additional scenario with this set up, is the gas cylinder could be set up with a bleed valve, to allow a slow controlled pressure loss. This would allow the suspension to lower through the race and the fuel is burned off.
On paper this appears to be a perfect solution to the problem.

Cooling

One further theory is that the dampers are sensitive to temperature, for example cooler dampers could provide a lower ride height. Its possible to envisage a case where teams chill their dampers, again possibly the gas cylinder to reduce the volume of the gas to shorten the dmaper and lower the ride height before qualifying. Then as the unit returns to ambient temperature the pressure increases and raises the ride height ready for the race.

 

[DrM]

Mclaren seems to be making big steps forward. Probably because they are shipping new parts to almost every race. Also their F-duct system is really kicking in on long straights (Mclaren is from 6-10 km/h faster). We will see about qualifing pace, I still think that RBR and Ferrari have big advantage due to Ride height adjustment system but all can happen in the race.

And it will be interesting to see effect on RBR and Ferrari cars when they will be forced to change mirror position.

 

[onesvenus]

Who is this woman? I've seen her before in other GP pictures.

I tink that's laia ferrer, one of the commenters from the catalonia television.

 

[S. L.]

*damper stuff*

I don't really get this. I can see how this makes the suspension/damping harder/slower, but not how it would adjust the height. How do they apply pressure to the suspension?

 

[Steppenwolf]

I don't really get this. I can see how this makes the suspension/damping harder/slower, but not how it would adjust the height. How do they apply pressure to the suspension?

I'm with you on this. Ride height and stiffness of the suspension are two different things to some degree. I can't see how it would be desirable to make the suspension stiffer after qualifying in order to fix the ride height. This certainly would work from a legal perspective but at the same time it would create a very bad car handling over curbs and bumps during the race.

If there is a gas cylinder that adjusts the ride height i don't think it works in a way that directly corresponds with the stiffness of the suspension.

 

[DrM]

According to some media, RBR is still the fastest in first two sectors, but Mclaren is unstoppable in the last, due to additional speed from f-duct.

But let's wait for FP3 and qualification round.

 

[moojito]

6 Germans! Do they teach racing in school there or something? 4 Brazillians, as well.

Anyway, how was the weather during practice? Not seeing much if any mention of rain on the reports.

 

[DrM]

Anyway, how was the weather during practice? Not seeing much if any mention of rain on the reports.

FP1: Dry
FP2: Dry with one minor shower. Rained quite heavy several kilometers from the track according to some guy from Kuala Lumpur

 

[Steppenwolf]

6 Germans! Do they teach racing in school there or something?

The aftermath of Schumi-mania in Germany during the 90's/early 2000's. A lot of boys suddenly wanted to become racing drivers. At the same time new talent programs started and kart tracks opened, more sponsors were willing to support young german drivers etc.

Picture related. That's Sebastian Vettel and Schumacher when he already was a two time world champion.

 

[speedpop]

That picture is frightening somehow.

 

[Steppenwolf]

Schumi could be his father lol.

 

[gutterboy44]

Great picture

 

[Steppenwolf]

Some more (from Vettel's website)

 

[S. L.]

I'm with you on this. Ride height and stiffness of the suspension are two different things to some degree. I can't see how it would be desirable to make the suspension stiffer after qualifying in order to fix the ride height. This certainly would work from a legal perspective but at the same time it would create a very bad car handling over curbs and bumps during the race.

yeah, i mean, you could put very high pressure on the damper fluid, which would push the suspension rods out and thus increase ride height. but that would change the suspension characteristics into the twilight zone, i'd think.

 

[moojito]

Those pictures are great! I doubt MS in those pics was wondering if that kid would be kicking his ass round an F1 track in years to come :lol

 

[duckroll]

Wow, those are awesome pictures. Gave me goosebumps looking at them. It really shows in a way how small the world of F1 motor racing really is. Considering what Schumie has been saying about Vettel in recent interviews though, I'm sure he's really proud to have been his inspiration and influence since a young age.

 

[AcridMeat]

Will wait for the results of free practice 3, but I think I have my picks for the weekend. I wish the bonus question gave more this week, I still don't have enough to make another change I wanted.

edit: That first picture with Michael and Sebastian really does look like father and son.

 

[Pimpwerx]

The aftermath of Schumi-mania in Germany during the 90's/early 2000's. A lot of boys suddenly wanted to become racing drivers. At the same time new talent programs started and kart tracks opened, more sponsors were willing to support young german drivers etc.

Picture related. That's Sebastian Vettel and Schumacher when he already was a two time world champion.

Awesom pic. Vettel was a fortunate young man to have such a great drive take a shine to him.

As for this weekend, I think I might take a gamble. My tip would be to watch Renault. I don't think anyone can afford Kubica, but the Renault chassis and engine combo can work, as can putting Petrov as a driver. FP3 is gonna be crucial. I hope it stays dry again today. PEACE.

 

[AcridMeat]

As for this weekend, I think I might take a gamble. My tip would be to watch Renault. I don't think anyone can afford Kubica, but the Renault chassis and engine combo can work, as can putting Petrov as a driver. FP3 is gonna be crucial. I hope it stays dry again today. PEACE.

Was going to wait for FP3, but you had the same thinking I did.

 

[navanman]

How soon before qualifying does the f1 race manager site close for editing?

 

[AcridMeat]

There is a countdown on the "edit team" page. Right now it's at just a bit over 12 hours.

 

[moojito]

That must be right before it, then. 9am the qualifying is, here. I think if I managed to get up at 7am for the oz gp I'll manage to haul myself out of bed at 9 for this. Looking forward to it!

 

[navanman]

There is a countdown on the "edit team" page. Right now it's at just a bit over 12 hours.

:lol :lol OK.

Might get up early to change my team then. Too early to make a change now, wait till FP3.

 

[S. L.]

fixed

 

[Leunam]

:lol

 

[Chris R]

Damn all you people with money to afford the good shit in the fantasy league

 

[subzero9285]

.

 

[Funky Functionality]

young Vettel finger pic

Hahahahahha, took me a little while to catch that.

 

[StoOgE]

Gonna be a rough weekend for Ferrari it seems. Guess I shouldn't really be shocked.

The rear mirror change is going to be huge.. wish the FIA would have stepped in and done this months ago. Big change to happen during mid season.

 

[navanman]

Gonna be a rough weekend for Ferrari it seems. Guess I shouldn't really be shocked.

The rear mirror change is going to be huge.. wish the FIA would have stepped in and done this months ago. Big change to happen during mid season.

It is going to be huge although pushing out the ban till Spanish GP gives RBR and Ferrari some time to fix their aero loss.

Surprising decision by FIA also. [Tinfoil hat] I though Todt in charge would have some Ferrari bias, but he seems to be doing a good job and being neutral with all teams.

 

[StoOgE]

I can't fault the decision if it is creating a safety problem. Seems pushing it back to Spain is a reasonable move, but I can't see any situation in which it doesn't completely fuck RBR and Ferrari's aero package for the season.

 

[Goldrusher]

Decisions, decisions.

 

[Steppenwolf]

I can't fault the decision if it is creating a safety problem. Seems pushing it back to Spain is a reasonable move, but I can't see any situation in which it doesn't completely fuck RBR and Ferrari's aero package for the season.

It's not gonna be that bad. All it will do is leveling the playing field. Also until Spain more teams will have the f-duct and ride height systems.

 

[TylerD]

Australian GP race edit is up on Formula1.com. They used Nickleback's Burn it to the Ground for the music but it goes well with the action from the race.

 

[AcridMeat]

Practice 3 is live, drivers are getting in their first/second laps.

 

[TylerD]

Time to study for my fantasy strategy.

 

[AcridMeat]

Exactly the same for me. Right now I've got my safe picks, will try to see if I want to make a driver/chassis switch.

 

[Pimpwerx]

That was a pretty devastating lap from Lewis. Half second up. Nothing definitive yet, but given that everyone else is running right now, that's a gap. I'm feeling confident in my bets. Not so much my fantasy team. PEACE.

 

[TylerD]

McLaren says rain in 5 mins. No rain yet...