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One Piece Manga |OT| ZEHAHAHAHA! The Name of this Age is Blackbeard!
- Thread starter TheGreatDirector
- Start date
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rather than clone luffy maybe she can use it to grow luffy at some place he needs to be? imagine her being able to touch luffy and basically transport him anywhere he needs to be.
Your brain is trying to drag you back in.
That seems like it'd be a flat out new power rather than a natural extension of what she has, but yeah, sure, why not.
instant transmission haki
You know, Kaido as the first emperor makes total sense if think about Luffy's time with Rayleigh. He fought vicious beasts for the last two years. Some of them even strong enough to withstand his G4 Kong Gun. And with Kaido, he has to slay the biggest beast of them all. Love it
I hate to be Debbie Downer again...but considering what it took him to take out Doflamingo...i just cant see him taking out someone like Kaido. Dude seems to be on WB Level and invincible.
Really looking forward how Oda will display the Strawhats taking out Yonkou...i find Big Mom, Shanks and Blackbeard more manageable than Kaido and his beefed up super soldier army. I dont think Luffy will defeat him in a traditional sense...
Really looking forward how Oda will display the Strawhats taking out Yonkou...i find Big Mom, Shanks and Blackbeard more manageable than Kaido and his beefed up super soldier army. I dont think Luffy will defeat him in a traditional sense...
Am I the only one more interested in seeing the supernovas clash with each other? The shichibukai and yonko are pillars that are inevitably going to be brought down. I feel there is more creative potential in seeing the supernovae since they're supposed to be basically potential protagonists we could have followed, but didn't. They have more potential to surprise us.
I dont see that happen anytime soon and if it happens it will be at the end of the manga. Shichibukai/Yonko downfall will also more or less be directly tied to the Supernovas...
TheGreatDirector
Banned
What'll be really interesting is to see if any of the supernova become the next generation of yonko. Some power is gonna have to fill the void the old emperors leave once defeated and I doubt it would solely be the next Pirate King.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Considering how they've been teaming up with each other and targeting Yonkou, I don't actually see a lot of supernova conflicts happening in the future. They'll probably just be our lenses to parts of the One Piece world we wouldn't normally have avatars present in, like Urouge being there for Kaido's sky-jump, and Kid/Hawkins/Appo there for his landing. A bunch of them will probably be wiped out on the way to Raftel (maybe even right now by Kaido), but maybe near/at the end we'll finally get to see the remaining few actually go at it.
igordennis
Member
Im late to this but just wanted to comment on this.
Its funny because im pretty sure the only reason veelk continues to insist and discuss stuff like this is because of post like these:
The fact that posters try to shut down discussion and basically dont want to hear bad things about the manga. Irony is a wonderful thing, you two complaining about this discussion (i'll add that posts like this "oh not this again" that adds literally nothing to the thread are probably 5% of this thread) are just making it last longer.
Minor stuff that is literally everywhere you look in One Piece so you can see the problem now hopefully. I personally only find tiring these posts trying to shut down discussion.
More Fun To Compute
Member
If you want to make another thread about feminism and one piece then it would be on topic but this is the manga discussion thread for discussing current manga events.
I don't think it is. It's here to discuss the manga. Elsewise, the conversation going on right now, speculation on future events, is also off topic, since that's not the current either.
Im trying to avoid it for the moment, because it's not a productive conversation when everyone is intent on shutting discussion down, however lazy it is to do so, but don't try to paint it as off topic simply because it's disliked.
Yeah that's total bullshit and you know it
More Fun To Compute
Member
You don't think that the topic is important enough to derail this thread or deserve it's own?
No, its place is in this thread.
It's not derailment. It's just unpleasant. I'm sure fans of Twilight would love it if no one had ever analyzed the abusive subtext of Bella relationship with Edward so they could keep pretending it doesn't exist, but that doesn't make it irrelevant to twilight discussion.
More Fun To Compute
Member
So it's not an important enough topic to be thread worthy or you never think people can think that it's disruptive?
It certainly could be it's own thread, but it's not disruptive in this thread.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
There's no reason to bring it out of the community bubble.
More Fun To Compute
Member
Some people think that it's becoming disruptive and if it's certainly important enough to get it's own thread then why not go that way?
Some people think the earth is flat, that doesn't make it so.
It's striking to me how similar this "take that shit elsewhere we don't care" attitude is to the way some of the people I know in real life handle talks of sexism in the things they love.
Which is part of why I have not been responding as actively as I would otherwise like to those people screaming "NO NOT AGAIN". I get enough of that off the internet, and it makes me literally angry, like I need to leave the room because people insist that it's never, ever worth talking about.
At least here I can mostly ignore it. And I'll probably continue to do that.
But, Veelk, I just wanna say, I appreciate what you're trying to do. ):
Which is part of why I have not been responding as actively as I would otherwise like to those people screaming "NO NOT AGAIN". I get enough of that off the internet, and it makes me literally angry, like I need to leave the room because people insist that it's never, ever worth talking about.
At least here I can mostly ignore it. And I'll probably continue to do that.
But, Veelk, I just wanna say, I appreciate what you're trying to do. ):
More Fun To Compute
Member
Well I don't want to make anyone literally spit blood with rage but if this isn't going to be a thread where you can mostly just relax and read dumb stuff about things happening in a cartoon it isn't what everyone wants. But I have to say that this is probably one the angriest threads I have read and it's for a comic about pirates with super powers.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
I don't necessarily agree with that other guy, but this is just a silly comparison. Don't compare objective scientific facts with subjective feelings.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Come on now, no one's even talking about it at the moment. Let it lie.
But when it comes up, it's certainly on topic. Regardless of whether people think it's redundant.
Welfare
Member
As long as the discussion is civil, I don't see the need to outright stop talking about it or say it should be its own thread. This is a forum, we can have discussions on multiple topics if we want to about One Piece in the same thread, so if a discussion is going on that you don't like or want to be a part of, just throw something out there to start another.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
EDIT: Wrong thread, lol.
The way I look at it is if it comes up as a result of the chapter having something to do with it that's fine, but it feels like we have the discussion once a week and it is always Veek pushing it. I feel like the thread is more about Veek and what he wants to talk about most weeks than the actual chapter and what's going on in the story. And I'm not just talking about the feminism thing.
Chie Satonaka
Member
He wasn't into it, but they did it anyway.
That's so Luffy.
God I love One Piece.
That's so Luffy.
God I love One Piece.
The thread will never literally be what "everyone" wants, so I honestly don't think that's a fair demand to make?
I don't see why it's so hard to let the discussions happen without demanding they stop. You don't necessarily HAVE to participate in said discussion. You can even talk about something else. Threads have multiple, ahem, threads of conversation running all the time.
Shrug.
EDIT: Also you don't have to worry about making me spit blood with rage. You're not a real life friend from whom I expect better. Just some random internet personnnn. U:
More Fun To Compute
Member
Not a demand more like an etiquette suggestion. I'm sorry if it feels like I'm making demands to you but it's just an observation on how this thread can feel more enjoyable and inclusive. A lot of people don't like to be always reading confrontational arguments.
I think that's on you for reading the arguments as "confrontational", when, at least from what I've seen, Veelk's posts have not been. He's actually been personally attacked on several occasions, and doesn't respond in kind. Maybe he has been in the past, and thus a reputation has developed, even though he's actually gotten better? I've seen it happen before, to me, even, so I am familiar with the pattern. But as a new person, virtually an outsider? He's not being unreasonable.
Also, I would find the thread a lot more enjoyable and inclusive if people didn't attempt to shut down arguments they don't want to see. It's happened with other topics, before, including topics Veelk wasn't even a part of.
Anyway, I wasn't talking about you specifically. Other people have been much more harsh in tone. But, to be honest? Any time you ask someone to stop talking about something, you can couch it up as nice as you want, but it's still at its heart asking someone to stop talking about something. No matter how nicely phrased, I still think it's not nice.
I mean, I don't know. I guess I'll stop talking about this, now, as the conversation has veered into such meta-level nonsense as to have lost all meaning.
You do you! Keep on keepin' on.
Also, I would find the thread a lot more enjoyable and inclusive if people didn't attempt to shut down arguments they don't want to see. It's happened with other topics, before, including topics Veelk wasn't even a part of.
Anyway, I wasn't talking about you specifically. Other people have been much more harsh in tone. But, to be honest? Any time you ask someone to stop talking about something, you can couch it up as nice as you want, but it's still at its heart asking someone to stop talking about something. No matter how nicely phrased, I still think it's not nice.
I mean, I don't know. I guess I'll stop talking about this, now, as the conversation has veered into such meta-level nonsense as to have lost all meaning.
You do you! Keep on keepin' on.
I feel this is provable with modus ponens.
Granted, Logic or even Math isn't really the scientific method per se (which is partially a logical formula in itself), but this is basic argument can be proven as true as long as you accept what I feel is the only sane premise you can make for this: If the topic contains properties of OP (such as characters, or plots, or whatever), then it is relevant to OP. I honestly cannot comprehend how anyone could object to this premise as metric for relativity, but I've seen a lot of wrong arguments. If, however, that's an acceptable premise, then the formula works.
OP characters are relevant to OP. Discussion contains OP characters, therefore they are relevant. If p, then q. p, therefore q. Maybe More Fun To Compute specifically meant "disruptive to what I want to talk about in OP", but he was arguing it was off topic to the thread. That's completely different and, I feel, objectively wrong on a simple logical level.
Yeah, I appreciate it. I understand the other side in terms of sheer weariness of dealing with the topic itself, because it's not like I want to harp on it perpetually. But refusing to acknowledge it is not permissible. People here claim "Yeah, we acknowledge it", but literally every single argument I've made for it has been objected to, for various reasons. So, it comes off to me that they're saying they 'get it' because they just want to avoid the topic, not because they actually get it.
And in any case, I tried approaching it from multiple angles, including nonjudgemental character exploration, but everyone wanted to avoid that too. I'm not convinced there's going to be a time when people actually want to discuss it, even if it's happening at the time. So I'll discuss it when I feel like it, but it's depressing that people will try to shut it down any time it does.
As I mentioned before, the last few discussions hadn't geared that way because of me. It was just the natural flow of conversation that happened to go. I contribute to the thread, I feel, but I don't dictate it. If discussion is being held, then it's on the other users as much as me. It's not like I can hold a discussion on my own. I say something I find interesting. Others reply. I reply to their replies. That's not me controlling the thread.
And in any case, this would be a double standard. Besides not having gotten a chapter in a week or two, wherein we wouldn't have discussed anything at all if we have to stay on topic to the current chapter, we've talked about the yonko here every day, and they haven't been mentioned all that much in the entire arc, despite being a catalyst for Doflamingo's trouble.
This has been my posting style for a long while. I've long made it my personal rule to always attack the argument/product, never the person making them. I've been told my tone is aggressive, but I can't help that, and I feel anyone who actually looks at the content of my posts will see that. The only time I actually got frustrated was when blackleg_sanji was making another "Aww....are you talking about this AGAIN?" driveby post since he does it ad nauseum even moreso than anyone else here. To my recollection, that's the only time I actually got angry and told him to to cut that shit out or I'd get a mod and have him see whose the one that's really shitting up the thread. Otherwise, I just try to stick with my personal rule of conduct as closely as I can. Honestly, if someone feels I'm actually trolling, actually derailing topics, those are bannable offenses and I encourage those individuals to seek out mods to go over my posts. It would solve everyone's problems much more easily than trying to tell me to stop talking about what I feel is worth talking about and spent time trying to craft a good argument for.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
While I agree that it'd be nice if things were less confrontational in here, what you're describing is certainly the polar opposite of being "inclusive."
So I'm gonna get down to brass tacks here. As a disclaimer, I know there are some people who actually don't think Oda's being "sexist" at all, and this explanation here doesn't really apply to them, but I'll go on record as thinking that's a bit naive.
The entire situation at its core is that Veelk has one thesis behind all of these various topics, and it's "I think Oda is sexist in his portrayal of women." It's this solitary thesis that makes everyone feel like it's always the same topic despite varying nuances on the surface level. But the reason why it gets so much pushback while similarly redundant topics like "who will be the next strawhat" are embraced (by people who aren't me ugh) is that it paints Oda (and the manga by association) in a bad light. For the most part, the members of this thread are great fans of Oda's work. Veelk, as he has made clear, does not have that same level of fandom. His lack of emotional investment inspires him to broach the topic regularly since he often notices the issue, while most other people chaff at the topic's reemergence because they just don't want to have to think that Oda's a bit of a creep.
It's a general human tendency to minimize the flaws in things we like because we like them, and because we enjoy enjoying our hobbies. Everything and everyone has faults, this is not news, but harping on those faults endlessly, particularly when you are in no position to affect change regarding them in any capacity, serves only to make a person miserable. If you don't have a positive emotional investment in something in the first place (see: Veelk), this probably doesn't register. But it's what's happening, and it's why he feels like it's a perfectly reasonable topic, and why most other people want nothing to do with it.
Now if the issue was "Oda is a known sex criminal" then wow maybe we need to address it and maybe we SHOULD be miserable, and maybe even quit reading the manga entirely. But the sexism in One Piece is generally pretty dang juvenile. It's the kind of thing that, yeah, is kind of a bummer, and I wish it wasn't that way. But it's also the kind of thing that most people can sweep under the rug because they enjoy enjoying the things they enjoy, and it's not really a huge enough deal to keep in the forefront of the mind.
So Veelk, when you bring the topic up, realize that in the "ugh not this again" posts you see in response, the "this" is at its core "me remembering that Oda's a bit of a creep," not the fact that you're bringing it up. People don't want to remember. But people, you gotta find a better way of reacting when you do remember. "Yeah, that's kind of a shame" is a fair response. An acknowledgement, but a short one when you don't want to keep thinking about it. "Get the fuck out of our thread," maybe not the best reply.
Not to say that these critiques of sexism are always infallible, since while some things clearly suffer in that regard, others are just easy scapegoats. It's easy to confuse "sexism" with "sexuality," and demonize the latter when your actual target is the former. So a healthy debate can indeed be the proper response from time to time. But recognize what it is that you're debating, and hit the right points instead of coming at it from "not everything is sexist stop it!!!!"
Now let's hug and move along shall we.
This is all fairly well said, and I appreciate that you take the time to be courteous and polite, and explaining your reasoning. I can understand much of it, and it's not lost on me that this simply isn't a pleasant topic to discuss as a fan of a person's work. It was tough coming to terms with it regarding MGS and Kojima, or Naruto and Kishimoto (back when I liked it anyway), or actually a whole bunch of stuff, because I like a whole bunch of different kinds of stories. So, trust me: I get it.
However, I have two things to object to:
1. You don't speak for everyone in the thread, unfortunately. From the way you speak, I feel you atleast fully acknowledge the problems I describe and simply want to discuss more positive things. You're basically the kind of person I'm talking about when I say that if the issue were acknowledged, it'd be easy to move on from. However, I don't believe every poster here is like that. I think the "this", to many, is not "I don't want to think of Oda as a creep" but "I want to continue pretending this issue doesn't exist". If the former were true, I wouldn't have gotten an objection to literally every single argument I made. Everything, from the power dynamic, to the fanservice, to the literal words from Oda's mouth have been tried to be refuted or discredited in some way. I'm not even saying I'm right in every instance, but if everyone 'acknowledges it', where do the objections of every form of it come from? If everyone acted like you seem to, I think we'd get the "acknowledge and move on" aspect a lot quicker.
And 2. Generally speaking, I don't talk about oda as a person. Prejudices are ingrained highly into people's psyche's, to the point where even staunch feminists fall into typical sexist traps now and then. Girls who slut shame. Girls who presume males to be the leading figures. It's like tar, it's pretty much impossible to fully get out of your system. I fall into traps of entitlement, or just stereotypical ways of thinking. My mom crashed her car today (she's fine), and I considered making a woman drivers joke just to piss her off, just to be funny. Even though I don't actually believe that, even if I am against this stuff in general, it just...comes, uninvited. And that's not even considering the culture difference and upbringing...
So no, other than one or two SBS's where Oda makes a pretty distinctly sexist remark, my 'thesis' has always been that One Piece is a work with sexist elements in it, not that Oda is a sexist person. I leave Oda himself alone, and go after the product, not the person. If people associate the work with the person so strongly that they can't seperate the two, sorry, but that's not on me.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Yeah, this is why I added that disclaimer at the start of my post. Some people are indeed not covered by this. To be fair they have as much a right to their opinion as anyone else, whether or not I think it's a pretty oblivious one.
My assumption of your thesis is based on the inclusion of those SBS replies. If you can rationalize his comments as him just being a joker who might not actually believe these things (ala your mom joke example), I wouldn't have expected you to react poorly to people who have said "he's just kidding around." Typically your response is "oh the 'since it's a joke it's meaningless' response, great." Since you ascribe meaning to it, it feels to me like yeah, your thesis is indeed in regards to the man, not just his work.
They do, but my point is I don't feel they are a minority, or atleast not enough so that it's worth presuming your interpretation of the statement is the general one.
I said it came to my mind. I didn't say I said it. Specifically because I acknowledges jokes aren't without meaning. I just understand in the sense that it comes to the forefront of the mind, unbidden. You can't control your thinking, atleast not all that well. You can, however, control what you say.
You can take my few SBS examples as my talking about Oda himself since those are his direct statements, but the vast majority of the stuff I talk about is OP itself.
Basically, Oda answering fanmail questions.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
I actually do think the people I'm talking about are in the majority, but what we end up seeing is that their way of "not wanting to be reminded that Oda is a bit of creep" is VIA pretending the issue doesn't exist. It's a matter of self-denial, they know it's how it is, but by trying to convince you they're really just trying to convince themselves.
Obviously that's nothing I can prove, but it's how it feels to me sometimes. Though yes plenty of people genuinely believe it, too.
Whether you choose to talk about the manga or the man, your stance on him is there, regardless. If you thought a non-sexist man was producing a sexist work that might be a pretty interesting topic, and may even imply that the sexism present in One Piece is manufactured as part of the fiction, not genuine, and should be interpreted in a different light. Your opinion of Oda is relevant, and colors what you say about the manga.
More Fun To Compute
Member
With all respect I was using the word as intended in the context of the sentence. If people genuinely want to talk about how they feel that they are excluded from the enjoying the manga because of content that is one thing. I wouldn't want to shut down people talking about that but I would feel they were dishonest if they still felt compelled to read it every week. It's another if people feel they are included in a discussion thread or if it has some odd aggressive atmosphere.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
If your thought is that things would be more inclusive via less aggression, then sure, that's fair. But the solution is not to banish on-topic topics to other threads. It's to act like adults, and not be aggressive.
More Fun To Compute
Member
It's just a suggestion. If it's a substantive ongoing discussion then it probably deserves it's own thread. That's not being banished anywhere if people want to discuss it.
Maybe, it's because of the placement of contrast I have in this thread that I don't perceive things that way. But then again, the same could be said of yourself. I personally am not interested in performing a scientific experiment to discern which is which, so not much else we can say about it. Feel free to be idealistic about it, but I can't share in it.
I'll have to disagree. I have several reasons for disregarding Oda. I don't have an opinion of the guy himself, or atleast I don't have an opinion I give any weight to because I don't personally know him. Even in the SBS, that's something he is saying as Public Figure Oda, not private person Oda. Honestly, even if I were to think he's sexist, so what? As I said, there are instances where even I have to admit that I'm sexist, and racist, and classist, and prejudiced in every way because cultural values have been instilled in me to think or expect certain things from just about any one of any social background. It's not a choice to have these innate prejudices, it's only a choice on how to express them. So saying Oda is sexist isn't a particularly significant statement to me. Mostly everyone is, including feminists, though to varying degrees of innate nature and to varying degrees to which they control it. If Oda is sexist, he's just one of 7 billion.
The work itself is the important part. It's the thing we directly get to know, hold in our hands. More people know the story of OP than the statements of Oda, more people have access to it. It is, therefore, the work that is actually going to propagate sexism by sticking to gender stereotypes and sexual objectification. The work is what I think about first in any given argument, not the author. If I go to the author's statements, I generally only do so to gain a better understanding of the work, not a better understanding of the author. Which isn't even mentioning the fact that no one here has a relationship with Oda outside his work in any case. Not me, not you or anyone else. You don't really know the guy either, however much you've read up on him or enjoyed his products. And enjoying his products is being a fan of his work, not an insight into Oda himself. When people say they enjoy hamburgers, they don't mean they like the cow it came from.
So I feel I am very much talking about the work, first and foremost, with Oda himself as an afterthought at best, and I could cut him out of the analysis of OP altogether without losing a thing. There are a hundred different reasons why Death of the Author is very much my stance on all these things. The bolded especially stuck out to me. Do you think Oda grows his manga in a garden? Everything about OP is manufactured. Writing is an inherently synthetic process, of creating a construct of a unreal worlds and people and events. WHat I think is your asking "Do you think Oda is specifically trying to demean women, or is it just natural and innate tendencies" As I said, I don't know the guy. Gun to my head, I'd say it'd be the latter, but if it were the former, I wouldn't care, because OP is thing he is sending out in the world, not his intentions. Trust me, every writer will tell you the same: The process of writing has a natural entropy to it and there is NOTHING that comes out exactly as planned. This is true both in writing, and all forms of art I believe. So whatever Oda intended, whether it was intentional malice or not, OP is what it is, and that's what I go after.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Well this is a difficult situation, since you clearly note sexism in One Piece as a negative, as something you'd prefer to not be in there. But if we divorce the work utterly from its author, what is actually being critiqued? Why is it bad for a story to be sexist? If it's not real opinion, it's not real sentiment, if Oda could be a saint who just happens to feel compelled to create a fictional world that includes sexist themes, are you suggesting that such a piece is fundamentally taboo? That fiction should only contain themes that are positive in nature? You refer to the work, not the characters. You critique "One Piece" as sexist, not "Zoro, darn that guy." You place the blame on the work, not the fictional man.
If I'm misrepresenting you here please say so. But as-is, it's unclear to me from what angle you are citing the sexism as "bad," if not as a critique of Oda for choosing to include the themes in his work. Without Oda it's just a masculine work of fiction that occasionally minimizes female roles. Is a book about a prejudiced society that's at peace with itself a bad book?
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