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[gundamkyoukai]

The whole sexist debate goes round in circles because it's subjective as hell.
I always enjoy a good debate but not if it going to take away from the manga discussion of the chapters or certain events that going to happen .
Once the thread don't only become about that we good even thought it's happening more often .

Still at the end of the day OP is a shonen battle manga aim at teenage boys some people are going to find certain things sexist IMO.

 

[Rafa=FedKilla]

I can't wait to see Moria's face when Luffy takes down a thousand beasts Kaido. Them Sakazuki's to takedown Sakazuki.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I can't wait to see Moria's face when Luffy takes down a thousand beasts Kaido. Them Sakazuki's to takedown Sakazuki.

I wonder if it's then we going to see moria again .
Don get beat but we did not see him react to the news even though don try to kill him .

 

[Veelk]

Well this is a difficult situation, since you clearly note sexism in One Piece as a negative, as something you'd prefer to not be in there. But if we divorce the work utterly from its author, what is actually being critiqued? Why is it bad for a story to be sexist? If it's not real opinion, it's not real sentiment, if Oda could be a saint who just happens to feel compelled to create a fictional world that includes sexist themes, are you suggesting that such a piece is fundamentally taboo? That fiction should only contain themes that are positive in nature? You refer to the work, not the characters. You critique "One Piece" as sexist, not "Zoro, darn that guy." You place the blame on the work, not the fictional man.

If I'm misrepresenting you here please say so. But as-is, it's unclear to me from what angle you are citing the sexism as "bad," if not as a critique of Oda for choosing to include the themes in his work. Without Oda it's just a masculine work of fiction that occasionally minimizes female roles. Is a book about a prejudiced society that's at peace with itself a bad book?

Stories don't exist in vacuums, they exist in our society. Perpetuating stereotypes is bad because it affects society, and makes other people perpetuate sexism, not because it reveals that the writer is a sexist person himself.

Let me put it like this: lets say that you discovered every volume of OP without Oda's name on them. You release them to the public, but no one claims them as the author. No matter how much you try, you can't find out who wrote them. But they still get super popular, like they are now. They make an anime out of it. They make merchandise. The only difference is that no one knows who wrote it.

Do they still have an affect on society? Can they still make you laugh, get hyped, cry, feel awesome when you read all the parts you love about it now. Going Merry dying, Luffy punching out bad guys, the epic reveals, the heart wrenching flashbacks. Would all those moments be meaningless if you did not have a name to credit them to? No, of course not. That's not even a presumed answer, because we do have stories we can't credit anyone to. This may never be recreated in our mdoern world, but that's essentially how ancient myths were. No one knows who originally came up with hercules, but they still enjoy the story. It still made people laugh or inspired or heartbroken. It still means something. So why would you think the negative effects wouldn't be as affecting?

So, yeah, you are understanding me correctly. I don't care where OP comes from. I'm not looking to make a moral judgement on a person who lives halfway across the world from me. I care what it is, because what it is affects how everyone perceives things in their own lives, will perceive them in the future.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Any story, in a vacuum, has no effect. But stories don't exist in vacuums, they exist in our society. Perpetuating stereotypes is bad because it affects society, and makes other people perpetuate sexism, not because it reveals that the writer is a sexist person himself.

Let me put it like this: lets say that you discovered every volume of OP without Oda's name on them. You release them to the public, but no one claims them as the author. No matter how much you try, you can't find out who wrote them. But they still get super popular, like they are now. They make an anime out of it. They make merchandise. The only difference is that no one knows who wrote it.

Do they still have an affect on society? Can they still make you laugh, get hyped, cry, feel awesome when you read all the parts you love about it now. Going Merry dying, Luffy punching out bad guys, the epic reveals, the heart wrenching flashbacks. Would all those moments be meaningless if you did not have a name to credit them to? No, of course not. That's not even a presumed answer, because we do have stories we can't credit anyone to. This may never be recreated in our mdoern world, but that's essentially how ancient myths were. No one knows who originally came up with hercules, but they still enjoy the story. It still made people laugh or inspired or heartbroken. So why would you think the negative effects wouldn't be as affecting?

So, yeah, you are right. I don't care where OP comes from. I care what it is.

Certain stories are made with certain groups in mind in this modern age .
So i really don't see the point of your eg .
Also what effect it going to have on society is subjective on your own world views so people will never see eye to eye .

 

[Veelk]

Certain stories are made with certain groups in mind in this modern age .
So i really don't see the point of your eg .

If I write a story for the neo-nazi crowd and release it to the public, is it meaningless because the story was not designed for anyone but that certain group? Of course not. As I said, intentions are cast into the wind when a product is released, and that includes intended audiences.

Besides, the teenage boy is as weak an excuse as any. Teenage boys are probably the most important demographic to help move away from gender stereotypes, not the least.

 

[Tathanen]

Any story, in a vacuum, has no effect. But stories don't exist in vacuums, they exist in our society. Perpetuating stereotypes is bad because it affects society, and makes other people perpetuate sexism, not because it reveals that the writer is a sexist person himself.

Okay, this is what I was trying to shake out. You are critical of One Piece featuring sexist themes because of the effect it has on people's mentalities in the real world.

I'd suggest that maybe this kind of critique places too large a responsibility on any piece of fiction, and none on the reader for being able to tell fiction from reality. I don't think any piece of fiction has an obligation to tell a story in a certain way because of concerns that readers might try to emulate it. With that logic any piece of fiction that contains content that would be considered objectionable were it to occur in the real world is similarly "bad." American Psycho, bad book. Nightcrawler, bad movie. These are fictional worlds featuring absolutely awful people that come out the other end glorified and successful. Virtually all horror movies, absolutely awful. "They perpetuate violence."

There is no subject matter that fundamentally lessens the quality of a work. The world of One Piece is inherently masculine, and, from time to time, may minimize the roles of women. The women largely accept this. It's just the way that universe works. You are holding it to the standards of our world, the real world, when it is not the real world. You are demonizing it because you think its treatment of subject matter affects the real world. That, in some way, you think it makes us all a little sexist. Or at least that it tries to, or has the potential to, and it's One Piece's fault, not our own. This is a far larger accusation, and one I am definitely on the opposite side of.

 

[whatsinaname]

Every work of fiction is not present to educate people or reflect reality or be a shining beacon to behaviour and ideas.

I enjoyed Atlas Shrugged without agreeing with any of the character's philosophies and it affecting my stance on social and economic ideas.

I enjoy One Piece without it affecting my stance on gender roles and sexism.

The problem for me seems to be that you want Oda and the story to change to represent certain ideals. (I won't even get to arguing the what ideals are). I feel that any creator should be allowed the freedom to create what he/she wants. We can enjoy it or not, and move on.

Then there is also the aspect of how much effect creative works of fiction have on society. Is crusading against sexism in a comic much different from crusading against violent games? Do violent games cause violence in society to increase?

I have no problem with most of your posts and I've been lurking here for a while. But the only thing I take issue with is your condescending stance that we are mindless consumers who blindly read things and that you are trying to "educate" us.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

If I write a story for the neo-nazi crowd and release it to the public, is it meaningless because the story was not designed for anyone but that certain group? Of course not. As I said, intentions are cast into the wind when a product is released, and that includes intended audiences.

Besides, the teenage boy is as weak an excuse as any. Teenage boys are probably the most important demographic to help move away from gender stereotypes, not the least.

No teenage boys is not a weak excuse because the author base how he is telling the manga around that .
If he think teenage boys like to see men kick ass more than women that is going to effect his work .
OP is super popular yes but it is still a shonen battle manga and Oda job is not to change society out look on certain things.
Truth is Oda has even less reason to change his work since that mind set ( along with other things )has made OP the best selling manga of all time .

 

[Veelk]

Okay, this is what I was trying to shake out. You are critical of One Piece featuring sexist themes because of the effect it has on people's mentalities in the real world.

I'd suggest that maybe this kind of critique places too large a responsibility on any piece of fiction, and none on the reader for being able to tell fiction from reality. I don't think any piece of fiction has an obligation to tell a story in a certain way because of concerns that readers might try to emulate it. With that logic any piece of fiction that contains content that would be considered objectionable were it to occur in the real world is similarly "bad." American Psycho, bad book. Nightcrawler, bad movie. These are fictional worlds featuring absolutely awful people that come out the other end glorified and successful. Virtually all horror movies, absolutely awful. "They perpetuate violence."

There is no subject matter that fundamentally lessens the quality of a work. The world of One Piece is inherently masculine, and, from time to time, may minimize the roles of women. The women largely accept this. It's just the way that universe works. You are holding it to the standards of our world, the real world, when it is not the real world. You are demonizing it because you think its treatment of subject matter affects the real world. That, in some way, you think it makes us all a little sexist. Or at least that it tries to, or has the potential to, and it's One Piece's fault, not our own. This is a far larger accusation, and one I am definitely on the opposite side of.

You'd be surprised at how easily people are affected, in ways they don't realize. It doesn't even have to be anything deeply engrained. Scientists read people paragraph long stories emphasizing various words, and depending on the word, people acted differently. IF they said "ancient" and "age", they moved more slowly toward the exit. If they said something else, people sat further away from each other in waiting rooms. Angry, iirc, made them leave in a greater hurry. And so on.

Of course, the way this works isn't that overt, or else videogames would have been banned a while ago like Jack Thomson wanted. However, it is incorrect to say that enforcing stereotypes, especially when it's done perpetually to this extent, does not have effects. It isn't just OP that does this, it's thousands upon thousands of films and books and anime and comics and videogames. Nearly every aspect of our art is filled with this.

The works you cited aren't good contrasts to this. While it's not exactly unpopular, it's not like stories of sociopathic heroes are the norm. While you could fairly say that american society has problems with the glorification of violence, the extent to which movies like American Psycho take it aren't common enough to instill the kinds of stereotypes literally generations upon generations of sexism in nearly every medium has had. Furthermore, while I haven't seen Nightcrawler and can't comment on it, American Psycho doesn't just have a sociopath as it's protagonist as an unremarked or glorified feature, it analyzes how fucked up his life is. Same with Breaking Bad. As much as it indulges in the "awesome" of having a drug empire, it doesn't shy away from the horrific consequences of it. Being a commentary on how such things work means it isn't mindless indulgence on violence and corruption. And that's the key word, here, mindfulness. OP's sexism, in contrast, is very mindless. If One Piece employed sexist tropes as a way of cultural critique, of significant consideration as part of it's story, well, that'd actually be great. Other works do this. Take A Song of Ice and Fire. The society of Westeros is VERY sexist, but it shows women acknowledging and struggling with these conventions as part of their character arcs, criticizing the sexism rather than merely replicating it. It's a series that's very well liked by feminists, that I've seen anyway. The sexism aren't just there for the sake of being there, they're a contribution to the overall story. And that's the key difference.

There's no real reason I can see why women should be minimalized, they just are. There's no reason why they should be sexually objectified the way they are, they just are. There is a world of difference between that and the narrative analysis that American Psycho offers.

The problem for me seems to be that you want Oda and the story to change to represent certain ideals. (I won't even get to arguing the what ideals are). I feel that any creator should be allowed the freedom to create what he/she wants. We can enjoy it or not, and move on.

Then there is also the aspect of how much effect creative works of fiction have on society. Is crusading against sexism in a comic much different from crusading against violent games? Do violent games cause violence in society to increase?

I have no problem with most of your posts and I've been lurking here for a while. But the only thing I take issue with is your condescending stance that we are mindless consumers who blindly read things and that you are trying to "educate" us.

Again, you'd be surprised how easily influenced people are. It's not a statement on being mindless, it's just that there is a lot of unaware mental processing going on. You would be amazed at how much thinking you do that you have no idea you do.

And criticism is never an attempt to control any artist. At no point have I ever said "Oda should do this". All my posts have been "OP is doing this, and this is why it sucks"

No teenage boys is not a weak excuse because the author base how he is telling the manga around that .
If he think teenage boys like to see men kick ass more than women that is going to effect his work .
OP is super popular yes but it is still a shonen battle manga and Oda job is not to change society out look on certain things.
Truth is Oda has even less reason to change his work since that mind set ( along with other things )has made OP the best selling manga of all time .

Well, if that's the logic your going with, answer me this: Is Twilight a great work then?

Afterall it appeals to a demographic, is highly successful in terms of sales, and it's not stephanie meyers job to not depict an abusive relationship as undesirable. And as Twilight is successful, that's a good reason to depict more abusive relationships as well, right (which seems to have been the logic she went with, considering how things ended up by the last book). By fulfilling that criteria, the work must be good, right?

 

[Frozenprince]

LIS we spend more time talking about sexism in OP than the actual comic itself.

Make a thread for it to discuss it in but please, please stop flooding the OT with it every single week.

 

[smurfx]

I can't wait to see Moria's face when Luffy takes down a thousand beasts Kaido. Them Sakazuki's to takedown Sakazuki.

i'm hoping he ends up joining luffy's coalition against him. would also maybe bring perona back into the story. i'm kinda hoping all the supernovas join luffy in his fight against kaido. would make more sense if they all together take him down rather than just luffy and law. the kidd alliance might go against kaido if he ended up destroying the crews of kidd, appoo and hawkins.

 

[whatsinaname]

Again, you'd be surprised how easily influenced people are. It's not a statement on being mindless, it's just that there is a lot of unaware mental processing going on. You would be amazed at how much thinking you do that you have no idea you do.

And criticism is never an attempt to control any artist. At no point have I ever said "Oda should do this". All my posts have been "OP is doing this, and this is why it sucks"

So what do you want to have happen? You don't want to control any artist. But you also want every artist to also strive towards not doing certain things and depict other things in certain ways. These things are mutually orthogonal.

 

[Tathanen]

You'd be surprised at how easily people are affected, in ways they don't realize. It doesn't even have to be anything deeply engrained. Scientists read people paragraph long stories emphasizing various words, and depending on the word, people acted differently. IF they said "ancient" and "age", they moved more slowly toward the exit. If they said something else, people sat further away from each other in waiting rooms. Angry, iirc, made them leave in a greater hurry. And so on.

Of course, the way this works isn't that overt, or else videogames would have been banned a while ago like Jack Thomson wanted. However, it is incorrect to say that enforcing stereotypes, especially when it's done perpetually to this extent, does not have effects. It isn't just OP that does this, it's thousands upon thousands of films and books and anime and comics and videogames. Nearly every aspect of our art is filled with this.

The works you cited aren't good contrasts to this. While it's not exactly unpopular, it's not like stories of sociopathic heroes are the norm. Furthermore, while I haven't seen Nightcrawler and can't comment on it, American Psycho doesn't just have a sociopath as it's protagonist as an unremarked or glorified feature, it analyzes how fucked up his life is. Same with Breaking Bad. As much as it indulges in the "awesome" of having a drug empire, it doesn't shy away from the horrific consequences of it. Being a commentary on how such things work means it isn't mindless indulgence on violence and corruption. And that's the key word, here, mindless and mindful. OP's sexism, in contrast, is very mindless. If One Piece employed sexist tropes as a way of cultural critique, of significant consideration as part of it's story, well, that'd actually be great. Other works do this. Take A Song of Ice and Fire. The society of Westeros is VERY sexist, but it shows women acknowledging and struggling with these conventions as part of their character arcs, criticizing the sexism rather than merely replicating it. It's a series that's very well liked by feminists, that I've seen anyway. The sexism aren't just there for the sake of being there, they're a contribution to the overall story. And that's the key difference.

The problem is that your opinion here basically boils down to intellectual censorship. Not outright, since you said you are not demanding Oda change but merely saying why the work "sucks," but you're still saying that if a work perpetuates a certain idea, it's bad. And, by association, people shouldn't write about certain things unless they want to be immediately bad. There are a million ways to critique something and ways to argue for its shittiness, but "it's irresponsible in the way its content can affect readers" is one I don't consider to be valid whatsoever. One's reaction to a piece of art is fundamentally under their own control. Sure, after I watch Jurassic Park I felt the need to run through the parking lot like a dinosaur, but after the temporary emotional high dissipates, I am still wholly in control of my faculties. The onus is on me for my behavior. I do not need to be coddled and kept away from "dangerous ways of thinking." That is one hell of a slippery slope.

Not to say that the sexism in One Piece can't be critiqued. There are many avenues via which it can be critiqued. You can obviously just "not like it," but there's a difference between not liking something and claiming it's bad, arguing against those who think it's good, claiming that they are just ignoring the reasons that make you right, not that their opinions are similarly valid. You can critique it via the author, though it requires knowledge about Oda that none of us really have. But what you're doing right now is saying "by containing un-demonized sexism, it is bad." Merely for containing a school of thought, it is less. Certain universes cannot exist and be good universes. And I don't buy in to that.

 

[Veelk]

So what do you want to have happen? You don't want to control any artist. But you also want every artist to also strive towards not doing certain things and depict other things in certain ways. These things are mutually orthogonal.

Ideally, I'd just want artist to be thoughtful and aware of what they are putting into their work. I feel people would create better work, in general, if they did that. I don't feel that Oda is fully aware of how perpetuating sexism is harmful, but in the event he is...well, that sucks I guess, but it doesn't change the fact that I only criticize the work, not the person.

Otherwise, there isn't a solution. People are free to create what they want. Other people, in turn, are free to point out why it's bad. There is no peace to be had. It's an eternal conflict of trying to find that which is good. If I had the option to talk to Oda, I'd voice my concerns about his work, if he'd be willing to hear them. Otherwise, I have no desire to alter, remove, destroy or prevent people from reading OP. I even recommended it to people, if they wanted to see something truly unique, even with all the disclaimer mentions of criticism I had for it. My only motion is to respond to it. Harshly, perhaps, but that's all that I want to do with it. I don't want it, in any way, gone.

The problem is that your opinion here basically boils down to intellectual censorship. Not outright, since you said you are not demanding Oda change but merely saying why the work "sucks," but you're still saying that if a work perpetuates a certain idea, it's bad. And, by association, people shouldn't write about certain things unless they want to be immediately bad. There are a million ways to critique something and ways to argue for its shittiness, but "it's irresponsible in the way its content can affect readers" is one I don't consider to be valid whatsoever. One's reaction to a piece of art is fundamentally under their own control. Sure, after I watch Jurassic Park I felt the need to run through the parking lot like a dinosaur, but after the temporary emotional high dissipates, I am still wholly in control of my faculties. The onus is on me for my behavior. I do not need to be coddled and kept away from "dangerous ways of thinking." That is one hell of a slippery slope.

Not to say that the sexism in One Piece can't be critiqued. There are many avenues via which it can be critiqued. You can obviously just "not like it," but there's a difference between not liking something and claiming it's bad, arguing against those who think it's good, claiming that they are just ignoring the reasons that make you right, not that their opinions are similarly valid. You can critique it via the author, though it requires knowledge about Oda that none of us really have. But what you're doing right now is saying "by containing un-demonized sexism, it is bad." Merely for containing a school of thought, it is less. Certain universes cannot exist and be good universes. And I don't buy in to that.

See above response. You're extrapolating statements far too much. Or maybe it's just one of my other unique opinions. But I don't want to erase the 'bad' from the world, atleast no in the way that you describe. I think trying to do that would cause more problems than it'd solve, as censorship does. I'm fine with the working system of simply identifying bad things as bad and letting people work out what they want with it.

Honestly, I'm not even really trying to convince any of you to my point of view per se. I'm someone who just tries to get at the truth of things. If I am making an argument, and no one can really refute it, it must be true, atleast insofar as I have tested it. Which is why I respond when people object that something I'm arguing is sexist isn't. It's not an ego thing for me, and it's not a crusade for some social justice: it's an attempt to get at the truth, which has it's own positive effects. I mean, I feel very few people are willfully sexist or want to be. So it's a matter of spotting the BS everyone missed, not condemning anyone, atleast as far as I'm concerned.

And I didn't say that they had to be demonized. What I said is that when these things are written, they're better written when they are critically examined, meaning well developed. To take another example from breaking bad, it ended with

Spoiler

Walter White getting everything he wanted. It left me with a pit in my stomach, but the journey of Walter White was well written and deeply critical of his lifestyle. Still, the end of it was "And he died happily" despite the lives he ruined.I'm fine with that because it felt true. They looked at the crime lord life style, from it's highs and it's lows, and it's nuances, and concluded that this is a life that a person like Walter White would be satisfied with.

I don't feel they demonized Walt. Quite the opposite, he felt very human, even if he was a vile person. I find that believable. I find that true.

Again, this is in sharp contrast to Oda, who is very much using sexism for....no reason that I can tell. That's not a call to demonize sexism, it's to be critical of it.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Well, if that's the logic your going with, answer me this: Is Twilight a great work then?

Afterall it appeals to a demographic, is highly successful in terms of sales, and it's not stephanie meyers job to not depict an abusive relationship as undesirable. And as Twilight is successful, that's a good reason to depict more abusive relationships as well, right (which seems to have been the logic she went with, considering how things ended up by the last book). By fulfilling that criteria, the work must be good, right?

I am not going to only focus on one aspect of a story to say if it is good or not .
I can like something even if i don't like how the author is dealing with certain aspects or understand the reason why the author is doing it .
What i am not going to do is expect every piece of fiction to be some message to society be it good or bad .

Let me ask you a question .
Right now Japan is having a birth rate problem should Oda all of a sudden have luffy and the other SH go out and have children to change society views ?
I really think you are expecting to much from a shonen battle manga no matter how popular it is .

 

[Tathanen]

Honestly, I'm not even really trying to convince any of you to my point of view per se.

I dunno, these past few posts have definitely been regarding whether sexism in fiction is inherently bad or not, not whether it's there or not. But if at this point we're just stating what our opinions are, and not trying to convince with them, I guess we're done! I think we've certainly stated our requisite cases, and I'd hope you consider that mine are valid, and not that I haven't refuted you, and you are thus "right."

 

[Veelk]

I am not going to only focus on one aspect of a story to say if it is good or not .
I can like something even if i don't like how the author is dealing with certain aspects or understand the reason why the author is doing it .
What i am not going to do is expect every piece of fiction to be some message to society be it good or bad .

And I'm not asking you if you like it, I'm asking you if that makes it a good work.

Let me ask you a question .
Right now Japan is having a birth rate problem should Oda all of a sudden have luffy and other SH go out and have children to change society views ?
I really think you are expecting to much from a shonen battle manga no matter how popular it is .

I hadn't ever said anything Oda should do, why should i start now? I will only say what I've said about sexism: that if he were to broach the topic, he should do so thoughtfully.

I dunno, these past few posts have definitely been regarding whether sexism in fiction is inherently bad or not, not whether it's there or not. But if at this point we're just stating what our opinions are, and not trying to convince with them, I guess we're done! I think we've certainly stated our requisite cases, and I'd hope you consider that mine are valid, and not that I haven't refuted you, and you are thus "right."

It's been about whether sexism is harmful to society. If a writer wants to harm society, that's their business, but it's not something I like and I am free to call out their products for doing so. If a writer thinks sexism is good, or doesn't know what is sexist or not, then that's for the arena of debate, which is what we have here. As far as persuasion goes, I don't know what your doing, I'm simply saying what I am searching for truth in debates. You might say that I am trying to persuade myself more than anyone when I argue, and when you bring up points, that's just more stuff for me to consider. The point I'm getting at here is, I'm not looking to 'win' anything. Just find the truth. Which I'll never be entirely certain I've found. Simply because no one's brought up a refuting point does not mean one doesn't exist.

But I feel that you've gotten further away from understanding my intentions in these last few posts, despite my attempts to clarify them.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

One Piece Manga Thread |OT| Veelk's Activism Playground

I understand your intent, Veelk, and it's admirable you defend it so ardently but it goes nowhere every time you bring it up. It's just you arguing the same thing over and over ad infinitum. One Piece's portrayal of women isn't spectacular. We all know this.

 

[Tathanen]

The female-minimizing in One Piece really is just a side-effect of the series being so male-glorifying. "Masculinity" is the key word here, dreams of a man and all that. Though that said, One Piece is pretty progressive regarding gender fluidity. Okama Paradise in Impel Down and all that. It's an odd dichotomy.

 

[Veelk]

The female-minimizing in One Piece really is just a side-effect of the series being so male-glorifying. "Masculinity" is the key word here, dreams of a man and all that. Though that said, One Piece is pretty progressive regarding gender fluidity. Okama Paradise in Impel Down and all that. It's an odd dichotomy.

Which is probably what I would get at if we ever got passed the "NO SHUT UP ABOUT SEXISM SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP" parts of the debate. It's certainly better than Naruto's embarassing show, and Naruto bizarrely doesn't even sexually objectify its female characters all that much.

One Piece Manga Thread |OT| Veelk's Activism Playground

I understand your intent, Veelk, and it's admirable you defend it so ardently but it goes nowhere every time you bring it up. It's just you arguing the same thing over and over ad infinitum. One Piece's portrayal of women isn't spectacular. We all know this.

*sigh*

 

[Rafa=FedKilla]

i'm hoping he ends up joining luffy's coalition against him. would also maybe bring perona back into the story. i'm kinda hoping all the supernovas join luffy in his fight against kaido. would make more sense if they all together take him down rather than just luffy and law. the kidd alliance might go against kaido if he ended up destroying the crews of kidd, appoo and hawkins.

Selfishly, I would prefer if the Supernovas were enemies or stayed rivals.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

One Piece Manga Thread |OT| Veelk's Activism Playground

I understand your intent, Veelk, and it's admirable you defend it so ardently but it goes nowhere every time you bring it up. It's just you arguing the same thing over and over ad infinitum. One Piece's portrayal of women isn't spectacular. We all know this.

I really wish a separate thread would be made its obviously a strong topic for him but at this point its just a cirlce jerk. Im scared to talk about any one piece female from this point on in fear of this topic coming up yet again

 

[Veelk]

I really wish a separate thread would be made its obviously a strong topic for him but at this point its just a cirlce jerk. Im scared to talk about any one piece female from this point on in fear of this topic coming up yet again

Yes, you are so very clearly victimized here.

 

[Frozenprince]

Which is probably what I would get at if we ever got passed the "NO SHUT UP ABOUT SEXISM SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP" parts of the debate. It's certainly better than Naruto's embarassing show, and Naruto bizarrely doesn't even sexually objectify its female characters all that much.

Oh just stop. There's a difference between not wanting to talk about it and not wanting to talk about ONLY THAT. It's non-stop in this thread with this subject and it's annoying to not actually be able to talk about anything else for a SINGLE page. If you want to talk about it talk about it by all means do. But make a thread for it so it's not EVERY page in the OT.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Yes, you are so very clearly victimized here.

And of course theres the fact that u respond with things like that but ok...ur topic is thread worthy idk why you won't make one nobody here is saying your wrong

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Oh just stop. There's a difference between not wanting to talk about it and not wanting to talk about ONLY THAT. It's non-stop in this thread with this subject and it's annoying to not actually be able to talk about anything else for a SINGLE page.

Yeah.

We're not saying the topic isn't worth discussing. We're saying it's not worth derailing the thread on a daily basis for. It's become so much that we can barely talk about anything without a deeply researched and cited Veelk post explaining why it's bad for the portrayal of women in media.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Oh just stop. There's a difference between not wanting to talk about it and not wanting to talk about ONLY THAT. It's non-stop in this thread with this subject and it's annoying to not actually be able to talk about anything else for a SINGLE page. If you want to talk about it talk about it by all means do. But make a thread for it so it's not EVERY page in the OT.

Than theres that too..pretty much sums it up

 

[Cloud Strife]

I really wish a separate thread would be made its obviously a strong topic for him but at this point its just a cirlce jerk. Im scared to talk about any one piece female from this point on in fear of this topic coming up yet again

One Piece Manga Thread |OT| Veelk's Activism Playground

I understand your intent, Veelk, and it's admirable you defend it so ardently but it goes nowhere every time you bring it up. It's just you arguing the same thing over and over ad infinitum. One Piece's portrayal of women isn't spectacular. We all know this.

I dunno, these past few posts have definitely been regarding whether sexism in fiction is inherently bad or not, not whether it's there or not. But if at this point we're just stating what our opinions are, and not trying to convince with them, I guess we're done! I think we've certainly stated our requisite cases, and I'd hope you consider that mine are valid, and not that I haven't refuted you, and you are thus "right."

So what do you want to have happen? You don't want to control any artist. But you also want every artist to also strive towards not doing certain things and depict other things in certain ways. These things are mutually orthogonal.

LIS we spend more time talking about sexism in OP than the actual comic itself.

Make a thread for it to discuss it in but please, please stop flooding the OT with it every single week.

Oh just stop. There's a difference between not wanting to talk about it and not wanting to talk about ONLY THAT. It's non-stop in this thread with this subject and it's annoying to not actually be able to talk about anything else for a SINGLE page. If you want to talk about it talk about it by all means do. But make a thread for it so it's not EVERY page in the OT.

Just my two cents Veelk, but if you keep coming against posts like these then I honestly don't see the point in continuing on. I wouldn't, anyway.

 

[Veelk]

Oh just stop. There's a difference between not wanting to talk about it and not wanting to talk about ONLY THAT. It's non-stop in this thread with this subject and it's annoying to not actually be able to talk about anything else for a SINGLE page.

If you can explain to me how my posts somehow prevent you or anyone else's posts from being posted, I will never participate in a sexism topic again. I don't hack your accounts. I don't have a discussion with myself no one else participates in. I didn't even begin the topic on sexism this time, or last time, or the time before that. This one in particular was aimed at me because the person who began wrote it as a criticism of how you guys try to shut down the discussion every time it comes up.

If you want to talk about something else, just talk about it. I'm sick of you guys crying to me about it.

Just my two cents Veelk, but if you keep coming against posts like these then I honestly don't see the point in continuing on. I wouldn't, anyway.

I know. I don't get why I do it either. Argumentative masochism, I guess.

 

[Frozenprince]

I mean you wanna talk about a popular Shounen being sexist I'll be right there waving the flag with you with Fairy Tail gifs.

Just, this isn't the place to have this discussion literally every week.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

And I'm not asking you if you like it, I'm asking you if that makes it a good work.

As i said i don't think every piece of fiction needs to be judge in that way .

I hadn't ever said anything Oda should do, why should i start now? I will only say what I've said about sexism: that if he were to broach the topic, he should do so thoughtfully.

Thoughtfully how ?
Cause not everyone going to see eye to eye on that .

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

You wanna know what made me mad? That luffy had the audacity!! To have a big feast and party without calling the swirly brow pirates!! Lol

 

[Veelk]

As i said i don't think every piece of fiction needs to be judge in that way .

Then why read it at all, if you're not going to reflect on it? You're just wasting time then.

Thoughtfully how ?

Critically so. See my rationale for the ending of breaking bad above. I don't see the sexism depicted in OP to be thoughtful, it's just there because stereotypes and for convenient exploitation. For example, what would happen if every woman was so provocatively dressed all the time? Why would it happen? How would any individual girl regard it as? How would individual guys? And so on. Thinking criticallly about something is like having an imaginary child that asks you "Why" to every statement you give, and you reply why it is so. If OP were thoughtful in it's depiction of sexism, that'd be way more interesting, regardless of whether I agreed with it or not.

I mean you wanna talk about a popular Shounen being sexist I'll be right there waving the flag with you with Fairy Tail gifs.

Just, this isn't the place to have this discussion literally every week.

Fairy tale doesn't have the narrative craftsmanship to hold my attention like OP does, however much I dislike it (and not just for the sexism).

Though I feel that the Fairytale community would be more accepting of it. I doubt they hold FT as a high class of work, so they'd probably be candid about it's faults, leading to no debate, which means the topic is wrapped up quicker.

Not that another work being more sexist than OP would give OP a pass on it anyway.

 

[Frozenprince]

Well I mean, I don't think there are any real OP fans that don't acknowledge that there is a problem in the evolution of the female characters in the series or how they're portrayed. Hell the way I showed the switch in art to my friends is "just look at Nami's boobs" to show how little attention has been paid to character or body consistency. Nobody denies that it happens.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Then why read it at all, if you're not going to make a judgement off it?

To see if i enjoy it .
I don't read , watch or play something and then say to my self i wonder what effect this would have on society .
Or how the author dealing with certain subjective matter would effect people who can easily be effect by certain topics.
I would do that depending certain works but most of them i don't .

Critically so. See my rationale for the ending of breaking bad above. I don't see the sexism depicted in OP to be thoughtful, it's just there because stereotypes and for convenient exploitation. For example, what would happen if every woman was so provocatively dressed all the time? Why would it happen? How would any individual girl regard it as? How would individual guys? And so on. Thinking criticallly about something is like having an imaginary child that asks you "Why" to every statement you give, and you reply why it is so. If OP were thoughtful in it's depiction of sexism, that'd be way more interesting, regardless of whether I agreed with it or not.

If you think critically you would know that certain things are done because the author thinks it going to appease the fanbase and for money .
At the end of the day you can't disconnect the story from the demographic it is targeting .
OP has it's problems but i know the reason why it doing certain things and i don't expect a shonen battle manga to get away from certain stereotypes and tropes .
Even more so when it 800 chapters and counting .

 

[Veelk]

Well I mean, I don't think there are any real OP fans that don't acknowledge that there is a problem in the evolution of the female characters in the series or how they're portrayed. Hell the way I showed the switch in art to my friends is "just look at Nami's boobs" to show how little attention has been paid to character or body consistency. Nobody denies that it happens.

This goes back to the notion that I'm just talking about the same thing, or that the discussion can't evolve past "sexism is bad, mmkay?"

When I first discussed the topic, I was talking about female character's place in power dynamics. Why was it that there were so fewer female pirates, why did every crew have just one or two, etc. Now, from there, we could have taken the discussion to specifically how a character gains power in OP, not just through the mechanisms like DF and Haki, but Narratively. Is a character who is weak (usopp, for example) powerful in the minds of readers for other traits, like courage, etc. Where the discussion could have begun at addressing the power discrepancy, it could have continued to be about power and types of power.


Another example. I tried to discuss the topic of fanservice. This actually came from trying to discern what qualifies as male fanservice. Well, to figure that out, I think it's kind of necessary to consider the contrast of it: female fanservice. While I was doing that, I tried to explore the cultural and social implications of the OP world for having so many women dress scantily. Why does Nami seem to enjoy enticing males with her body, but seem to have no sexual desires of her own? Was there a cultural shift, since even characters that dressed reasonably now show ample cleavage in the time skip (Hina, for example)? This could have been discussion of world building. I wouldn't consider OP's sexual fanservice as skeevy if any of these questions were actually explored.

And so on. But everyone tries to murder the conversation before it gets started. So yeah, this is worth discussing, because simply saying "yeah, we get it, OP is sexist, lets move on" undermines the idea of sexism. There are so many ways sexism is portrayed that it's sometimes difficult where know where to even draw the line between 'sexual freedom' and 'sexual exploitation'. But no, posters like you do everything you can to kill the discussion before it starts. So I have no sympathy.

To see if i enjoy it .
I don't read , watch or play something and then say to my self i wonder what effect this would have on society .
Or how the author dealing with certain subjective matter would effect people who can easily be effect by certain topics.
I would do that depending certain works but most of them i don't .

So why do you enjoy it? It's not about having an effect on society, it's about what affect it has on YOU. And how it would affect someone who isn't you in some particular way. And someone who isn't you or the other person in another way. And so on. Thinking about things from multiple angles. Thinking critically.

Simply watching/reading something and seeing if it stimulates the pleasure center of your brain, without comprehending what the work is saying (not in some high concept abstract way, but just simple stuff like why do you enjoy seeing Doflamingo get defeated), is like eating without tasting, sex without passion. It gets you through the day, but dear god, you're missing out.

If you think critically you would know that certain things are done because the author thinks it going to appease the fanbase and for money .
At the end of the day you can't disconnect the story from the demographic it is targeting .
OP has it's problems but i know the reason why it doing certain things and i don't expect a shonen battle manga to get away from certain stereotypes and tropes .
Even more so when it 800 chapters and counting .

A business is run for money. What a revelation. What a reduction of what Oda does. Truly, OP is a purely by the books story that is calculated to make as much money as possible. There is no integrity to the story at all.

This is such a cop out answer. Other than Oda having more money than god at this point, (and yes, believe it or not, there are artists who don't really care about the money they made once they passed the threshold of when they have "enough". Or even when they don't, that doesn't mean they can't care about the meaning their work imparts and will gladly drop any principles they have to make more money), it's not like he doesn't challenge stereotypes. Gender fluidity, as someone else mentioned. If your theory were true, he'd have never touched that shit in fear of turning off some of his fanbase.

You're basically saying Oda is a hack. A sharp hack, but a hack.

 

[smurfx]

You wanna know what made me mad? That luffy had the audacity!! To have a big feast and party without calling the swirly brow pirates!! Lol

doesn't even seem like he cares about what happened to them. i mean shit they encountered an enemy emperor. luffy should be desperately trying to get to them. although i'm sure it will be revealed that sanji contacted luffy some time ago to tell him that the crew is okay.

 

[KirbyStamped]

I think the problem with the sexism discussion here is that it's too broad and finite. The question "Is it sexist?" has dominated discussion because it's an easy way to drum up discussion, but it's also loaded because it's only interested in a result of "Yes" or "No". In reality, a person or a work can simultaneously hold progressive and problematic views. The question shouldn't be "Is it sexist?", because people immediately resort to inductive reasoning to look for examples that support their point of view.

Let's look at One Piece. Yes, on one hand, this is a series where the female characters have had progressively growing chests, shrinking waists, and losing clothes in the process. There's no female character in the main crew that's on par with the monster trio. Robin might have been when she was first introduced, but Oda does frustratingly deny her the opportunity to show any growth.

At the same time, this is also a series where the female characters are still shown as being useful people. Nami is essential to keeping the ship going, and dreams of creating a map of the entire world. Robin is a key player in deciphering the history of the world of the series, and dreams of uncovering the true history of the world. Their dreams are just as grand as the men of the series, and are completely independent on living up to the expectations of a man, which I feel is actually pretty uncommon in a lot of mainstream battle manga (I won't bore people by going into list wars) Hell, while it does sadly fall into the problem of "Only ugly women can be hurt by men" frequently, it's still a series that pretty consistently has female villains in each major plot arc since the entry into the Grand Line (the only exceptions I can think of are Skypeia, which at least gave both Nami and Robin a battle, and Fishman Island, which was inexcusable in how both Nami and Robin were ultimately ignored). And it's not always hard and fast with the "ugly women can be hurt" either, or that women can only fight other women. Franky beats the crap out of Baby 5 on Punk Hazard. Robin, in her only real fight in the series, takes down the guard in Skypeia. Luffy goes up against the Snake sisters on Amazon Lily. Etc. Women at least have a clear purpose in the series on the frontlines. Hell, one of the biggest threats in the world, Big Mama, is, well, a woman. I can't think of any other mainstream battle manga that's had such a massive threat level attatched to a woman (DBZ with Android 18 comes to mind, and even then she's quickly disregarded once Cell is introduced and she becomes a damsel in distress).

Is it enough? Honestly, no, I don't think so. The fact that Robin and Nami haven't had big battles attatched to them since the timeskip really bothers me a lot, particularly with Robin, considering we got the first real glimpse of her strength with her quickly and easily restraining Cavendish, only to be denied that. At the same time, I think expectations, sadly, need to be kept in check at time. I'm not even trying to give the "It's targeted towards teenage boys" excuse. It's written for a Japanese audience. This is a country that still doesn't give women maternity leave, and shames women who go back to work after giving birth by saying she's not doing her duty as a woman. This is also where they have to designate train cars for women during busy hours and give PSAs almost begging men to quit groping women on trains. And this is a country where platonic friendships between men and women are almost unheard of, where in school they are split up from one another and view the opposite gender as "the other". The fact that Oda shows a platonic love between the male and female crewmates (barring Sanji, of course) and shows the women as being people beyond just being there to serve the men is, at the very least, wildly progressive for such a mainstream cultural icon of the area.

That's not to say I think people should just put up with it. Far from it. If someone told me that they didn't want to read the series (which is one of my favorites) based on the depiction of women, I wouldn't hold it against them. One of my best friends absolutely adores the world building and character development, but has been telling me that she's been really put off by Oda's regression into pervert pandering with the female designs. But I think that when discussing One Piece sociologically, it seems like ignoring the elephant in the room to not bring up where it's being made.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

doesn't even seem like he cares about what happened to them. i mean shit they encountered an enemy emperor. luffy should be desperately trying to get to them. although i'm sure it will be revealed that sanji contacted luffy some time ago to tell him that the crew is okay.

I mean i guess you could say he trusts his crew enough to know they will be ok none of them are pushovers..except chopper(i hate chopper lol) but still give them a call but i really need to see what went down

 

[gundamkyoukai]

This goes back to the notion that I'm just talking about the same thing, or that the discussion can't evolve past "sexism is bad, mmkay?"

When I first discussed the topic, I was talking about female character's place in power dynamics. Why was it that there were so fewer female pirates, why did every crew have just one or two, etc. Now, from there, we could have taken the discussion to specifically how a character gains power in OP, not just through the mechanisms like DF and Haki, but Narratively. Is a character who is weak (usopp, for example) powerful in the minds of readers for other traits, like courage, etc. Where the discussion could have begun at addressing the power discrepancy, it could have continued to be about power and types of power.


Another example. I tried to discuss the topic of fanservice. This actually came from trying to discern what qualifies as male fanservice. Well, to figure that out, I think it's kind of necessary to consider the contrast of it: female fanservice. While I was doing that, I tried to explore the cultural and social implications of the OP world for having so many women dress scantily. Why does Nami seem to enjoy enticing males with her body, but seem to have no sexual desires of her own? Was there a cultural shift, since even characters that dressed reasonably now show ample cleavage in the time skip (Hina, for example)? This could have been discussion of world building. I wouldn't consider OP's sexual fanservice as skeevy if any of these questions were actually explored.

And so on. But everyone tries to murder the conversation before it gets started. So yeah, this is worth discussing, because simply saying "yeah, we get it, OP is sexist, lets move on" undermines the idea of sexism. There are so many ways sexism is portrayed that it's sometimes difficult where know where to even draw the line between 'sexual freedom' and 'sexual exploitation'. But no, posters like you do everything you can to kill the discussion before it starts. So I have no sympathy.

All of that stuff is highly subjective and would go no where to tell the truth
We are talking about a manga that sell 3 million plus alone in Japan every Vol .
Oda already said he does not want to do any serious romance in OP .
So it don't matter how sexy the characters act or look it not going to go any where other than it being a gag .

 

[Tathanen]

Then why read it at all, if you're not going to reflect on it? You're just wasting time then.

This is another reason you get pushback. You can follow a story, enjoy following it, find value in following it, without significantly reflecting on or analyzing your experience. Or rather, I can. Plenty of people can! And enjoy doing so, just going with it. And they don't consider it wasted time.

Some of the pushback isn't just "I don't think it's sexist" or "I don't want to talk about it being sexist," it's just "I don't want to look at it critically period."

I can look at it critically. But I don't really enjoy doing it. And I'd rather not.

 

[Veelk]

All of that stuff is highly subjective and would go no where to tell the truth
We are talking about a manga that sell 3 million plus alone in Japan every Vol .
Oda already said he does not want to do any serious romance in OP .
So it don't matter how sexy the characters act or look it not going to go any where other than it being a gag .

You keep mentioning subjectivity like it has no truth to it, or lacks value.

Regarding romance, while I don't doubt that's true, you are missing the point by the distance from my house to Japan.

"It's not going to happen" is completely irrelevant to "How does this affect the world of OP"

When I suggest to explore Nami's character from that perspective, I'm not saying "I need to have Romance!" I'm saying "Well, lets see if we can get some depth to Nami by looking at her from this perspective". If we can't, then Nami is a flat character in that regard, isn't she?

This is another reason you get pushback. You can follow a story, enjoy following it, find value in following it, without significantly reflecting on or analyzing your experience. Or rather, I can. Plenty of people can! And enjoy doing so, just going with it. And they don't consider it wasted time.

Some of the pushback isn't just "I don't think it's sexist" or "I don't want to talk about it being sexist," it's just "I don't want to look at it critically period."

I can do it. But I don't really enjoy doing it. And I'd rather not.

Can't agree. That's what value is, reflecting on how it has added to your life. If you do not reflect, it is as though you've never read it in the first place. Everyone reflects, they just don't do it enough. And I've yet to read any work, good or bad, that wasn't a better experience for looking at it critically.

However, if you fundamentally disagree with that, then that's fine. It just means we have nothing to talk about. But I can still think critically for myself, and express it here. And if people want to pushback on that...I hate to say it, but tough. I'm not here to make their lives a pleasure. The only thing they can do if they don't like it is ignore it, which they don't choose to do, generally speaking it seems.

*Post*

A nuanced, well articulated engagement of the topic? Surely, this is a dream.

But seriously, I can agree with pretty much all of that. I am not all that familiar with Japans customs, outside the generalities of some of the stuff you mentioned. I know there are some feminists groups there, but they are scarce like usual. Still, it brings up a good point that social change is never drastic. It's always baby steps. I don't really find it believable with Nami, given her fanservice proclivity and being a teenage girl, but it would fit totally Robins character to be disinterested in any romantic situation, I think. It's an aspect I hadn't considered as strongly as the others. Thank you.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

So why do you enjoy it? It's not about having an effect on society, it's about what affect it has on YOU. And how it would affect someone who isn't you in some particular way. And someone who isn't you or the other person in another way. And so on. Thinking about things from multiple angles. Thinking critically.

Simply watching/reading something and seeing if it stimulates the pleasure center of your brain, without comprehending what the work is saying (not in some high concept abstract way, but just simple stuff like why do you enjoy seeing Doflamingo get defeated), is like eating without tasting, sex without passion. It gets you through the day, but dear god, you're missing out.

Okay this is very fucking condescending .
I read hundreds of manga do you think i have time or what think critically for all of them.
That is not counting the other type of media i consume .
I see you talking about thinking critically but it seem you can only do that for aspect that suit you .
And with that i am done with this .

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Its so weird to see this come up so much in a one piece thread i mean especially when you have things like soma,fairy tail etc. I always thought one-piece handled women very well. They're powerful,they're motivated,they have goals and dreams,the two main females hold more importantce to the overall story even more so than half the crew. I dont get it(might as well jump in only way u can participate in this thread at this point)

 

[Rafa=FedKilla]

Any of ya'll collect figures here? Got Sabo and Koala on the way. Glad to see my faith in Sabo returning rewarded.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Any of ya'll collect figures here? Got Sabo and Koala on the way. Glad to see my faith in Sabo returning rewarded.

Pfft heck yea all of the strawhats,ace,sabo,mihawk,shanks,74 manga volumes,7 seasons of dvds so far,one piece nerd

 

[Tathanen]

Any of ya'll collect figures here? Got Sabo and Koala on the way. Glad to see my faith in Sabo returning rewarded.

I've got this guy sitting next to all my volumes, he's pretty bitchin.

 

[Veelk]

Okay this is very fucking condescending .
I read hundreds of manga do you think i have time or what think critically for all of them.
That is not counting the other type of media i consume .
I see you talking about thinking critically but it seem you can only do that for aspect that suit you .

I think about everything I read critically, yes. I consume a lot of things as well. Some more than others, but I make an effort with everything. I've looked at other aspects of OP here too, how Haki works was a recent discussion a while back with Imperial Bishop. As I said, I always found thinking critically about things to be far more rewarding than not doing so. I also seek out others making critically thoughtful posts on the subject, to help me consider things I missed.

Like I told Tathanen, if you disagree and choose to do otherwise, that's your perogative, but I think you're missing out and it means is that we have nothing to talk about. I engage things critically, so if you're not gonna do that, there's...just nothing to discuss. I don't go in for circle jerks of "FUCK YEA, LUFFY, PUNCH THE SHIT OUT OF THAT BAD GUY" or anything. You're free to do so, and I won't stop you from doing it (as I've never stopped any form of discussion here...) but the same applies to you about my posts.

 

[Cloud Strife]

However, if you fundamentally disagree with that, then that's fine. It just means we have nothing to talk about. But I can still think critically for myself, and express it here. And if people want to pushback on that...I hate to say it, but tough. I'm not here to make their lives a pleasure. The only thing they can do if they don't like it is ignore it, which they don't choose to do, generally speaking it seems.

These are the two things I can't understand about you.

While realizing that a majority of posters in here disagree with you and have no contention of speaking with you, why do you continue?

The second bit I highlighted makes it seem like you have some sort of duty to point out these flaws to the posters in here. And that's fine that you think that way (I think), but you mentioned masochism earlier so is that it?

You get some kind of high or pleasure from people constantly arguing with you and disagreeing with you?

Honestly speaking, I'm fascinated.