Cindi Mayweather
Member
Really hoping my girl Nami beats Brulee.
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One Piece Manga |OT2| Four Emperors, One King, All Blue
- Thread starter Cloud Strife
- Start date
- Status
LASERS.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
This arc is not only arc of Sanji, it's arc of Brook!
He's finally going to get his moment everyone!
He's finally going to get his moment everyone!
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Cloud Strife
Member
Eye expect it'll be pretty awesome
Ganzlinger
Member
A pretty woman who can cook sweets and shoot beams, that must be Luffy's ideal woman.It's a beam! She's going to shoot a beam
Cindi Mayweather
Member
As a Luffy x Nami shipper, no.
But yeah really expecting this arc will result in an ally in Big Mom. Big Mom has problems but doesn't seem outright evil (comparatively to guys like Akainu in the World Government in the very least), and her dream is a noble and peaceful one similar to Whitebeard's. I'm really willing to bet the Vinsmokes somehow sabotage the wedding ceremony and turn it against Big Mom, like a coup against Totland or something. Afterall it was directly stated from Sanji's father he's only doing this to get more power so he can conquer the North Blue afterall.
The big fakeout I feel for this arc will be Big Mom will appear to be the big bad, but it'll turn out to be Vinsmoke Judge instead in a TWEEST, and Sanji kicks his ass in the final battle.
I also think Big Mom's power might be essential in defeating Kaidou so it's possible Luffy and Law will get under her wing out of necessity more than anything.
I also think Wano is going to be a Marineford-style arc where everything "explodes" so to speak. It's possible there won't be a big fight this arc but instead will result in Big Mom, Luffy, and etc. all going to Wano for a Yonkou vs Yonkou battle.
The big fakeout I feel for this arc will be Big Mom will appear to be the big bad, but it'll turn out to be Vinsmoke Judge instead in a TWEEST, and Sanji kicks his ass in the final battle.
I also think Big Mom's power might be essential in defeating Kaidou so it's possible Luffy and Law will get under her wing out of necessity more than anything.
I also think Wano is going to be a Marineford-style arc where everything "explodes" so to speak. It's possible there won't be a big fight this arc but instead will result in Big Mom, Luffy, and etc. all going to Wano for a Yonkou vs Yonkou battle.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Only thing is I don't see Luffy allying himself with an Emperor. Takes away from his Pirate King cred.
Ganzlinger
Member
I don't see Luffy allying himself with her either.
She actually looks more evil than Akainu in my books. Akainu is doing his job, using dirty tactics of course, but he just see pirates as scum and he is not that wrong.
Big Mom eats people, kill her own children and subordinates (Luffy doesn't tolerate that), takes lifespan, fund research on children just for her ridiculous dream of drinking tea with giant people. She doesn't want to destroy the world, but the things she does for futile reasons is what makes her way more disgusting. And she is sadistic, like Brûlé said, she was just playing with the Strawhats, giving them false hopes just to cut their wings. And she is the one who made Sanji go there, threatening to give him the head of a beloved person as a gift if he didn't attend the tea party invitation.
For coherence, Oda needs to create a big twist here if he plans to make her an ally.
She actually looks more evil than Akainu in my books. Akainu is doing his job, using dirty tactics of course, but he just see pirates as scum and he is not that wrong.
Big Mom eats people, kill her own children and subordinates (Luffy doesn't tolerate that), takes lifespan, fund research on children just for her ridiculous dream of drinking tea with giant people. She doesn't want to destroy the world, but the things she does for futile reasons is what makes her way more disgusting. And she is sadistic, like Brûlé said, she was just playing with the Strawhats, giving them false hopes just to cut their wings. And she is the one who made Sanji go there, threatening to give him the head of a beloved person as a gift if he didn't attend the tea party invitation.
For coherence, Oda needs to create a big twist here if he plans to make her an ally.
While there are ways for which Big Mom could become an ally, I don't want it to be the case. Or atleast I don't want it to happen without going through the motions.
I think one of the reason I'm liking this arc more is that a lot of my complaints about how the series depicts women are being addressed with her. Women are consistently reduced to tokenism in Pirate crews, usually to be sexual objects for the audience to oogle, and there is always some contrivance for why they don't get into a straight up, drawn out fight where they hit and get hit like any other member of the crew. They're always in the crushing minority of any group, and always on the weaker side of the group they are a part of.
I don't want to get too optimistic because I don't want to be disappointed, but thus far, Big Mom has been the answer to a lot of the complaints I have. She's not sexualized (cuz she's ugly, I guess, but still), she has demonstrated to be powerful, she's properly respected as her position is dictates, and she seems like she's on the smarter side of OP characters, and seems to have a more diverse pirate crew in general.
But other than that, she's just typical OP villain that's being treated same as any other. I like that. Granted, we're still in the introduction phase of the arc, and even Hancock was a 'normal' villain until the rest of the plot happened. But I want this to be followed through to the end. I want her conclusion to have a drawn out and epic battle with Luffy where she beats his ass as much as he beats hers before she falls or whatever. As far as I can see, there is no reason not to do this.
Imo, female characters like Big Mom should have been the norm, rather than the only of her kind. But if she has to be the only of her kind, I'd rather not see her turned into an ally or given some pretense about why she should not have a final battle like any other villain or anything. I'd rather she just be treated like all the other villains were.
I think one of the reason I'm liking this arc more is that a lot of my complaints about how the series depicts women are being addressed with her. Women are consistently reduced to tokenism in Pirate crews, usually to be sexual objects for the audience to oogle, and there is always some contrivance for why they don't get into a straight up, drawn out fight where they hit and get hit like any other member of the crew. They're always in the crushing minority of any group, and always on the weaker side of the group they are a part of.
I don't want to get too optimistic because I don't want to be disappointed, but thus far, Big Mom has been the answer to a lot of the complaints I have. She's not sexualized (cuz she's ugly, I guess, but still), she has demonstrated to be powerful, she's properly respected as her position is dictates, and she seems like she's on the smarter side of OP characters, and seems to have a more diverse pirate crew in general.
But other than that, she's just typical OP villain that's being treated same as any other. I like that. Granted, we're still in the introduction phase of the arc, and even Hancock was a 'normal' villain until the rest of the plot happened. But I want this to be followed through to the end. I want her conclusion to have a drawn out and epic battle with Luffy where she beats his ass as much as he beats hers before she falls or whatever. As far as I can see, there is no reason not to do this.
Imo, female characters like Big Mom should have been the norm, rather than the only of her kind. But if she has to be the only of her kind, I'd rather not see her turned into an ally or given some pretense about why she should not have a final battle like any other villain or anything. I'd rather she just be treated like all the other villains were.
On consideration, yeah, I don't think Big Mom will be an ally.
I think what Oda's going for: Whitebeard didn't go after One Piece because he just wanted family and friends. Shanks has a similar thing going on.
Therefore, Big Mom and Kaidou's motivations and dreams must be unrelated to One Piece, otherwise they would go after and probably get it.
I think what Oda's going for: Whitebeard didn't go after One Piece because he just wanted family and friends. Shanks has a similar thing going on.
Therefore, Big Mom and Kaidou's motivations and dreams must be unrelated to One Piece, otherwise they would go after and probably get it.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Actually Big Mom may actually want One Piece she was given a poneglyph by Jimbei and was thankful, she just can't read it. Unless you have someonelike Robin in your crew your shit out of luck finding One Piece and imagine people like Robin are extremely rare even in the new world if Linlin doesn't have someone in her empire able to. Kaidou not so much unless it allows him to kill himself
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Alvida was in the second chapter and Crocodile's crew each have a female and male partner. I think One Piece has problems with women depictions but not as bad as you make it. I think the major problem is this is the first female villain since Alvida.
I really don't want to start, as the rest of the people here know, this is a topic I can go on for hours over, but you pretty much struck my counter argument there at the end. Alvida was literally, over 15 years ago, and so was Alabasta. OP goes out of it's way to not depict women combat scenerios, even when they supposedly have the power to do so, which is not great when the driving force of the OP universe is violence. A quick and typical example is just one from a chapter ago: All of Sanji's siblings bullied him, but Reiju was for some reason just depicted as laughing on the side lines. There is no reason she shouldn't have been kicking Sanji's shit in along with the rest of her brothers, but for no distinct reason, she's separate from them. You can maybe name a few exceptions, like that Mole woman who was out and about on the combat field, but they're rare. To prove one point, one of the largest and most involving arcs was the Marineford where nearly every character was new and they had all sorts of factions there to fight. And they were ALL men, aside from Hancock and I think one whitebeard pirate that I'm pretty sure wasn't actually shown fighting.
It is very rare that women are placed in the kind of position Big Mom is, one where she herself is powerful and has no reason to not use that power to just fight. I don't want that to be wasted.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Technically, Boa was a villain, but she was way, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, stronger than Luffy was during her arc she was dealt with another way. Even with immunity to her beam he had absolutely no chance winning that fight.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
This is true but honestly doesn't seem like her character type to begin with. She's the oldest of the siblings and not a twin. She also doesn't seem to dislike Sanji as much as the wrest do but you can say that was all engineered after the fact.
Though keep in mind Luffy punched vivi fought Boa's sisters, fought alvida , runs away from Hina who was equally competant and intimidating as smoker at the time etc. Certainly women are much rarer and in general weaker than male characters in general but one thing in Oda's favour is that aside from the unfortunate case of the main crew they often don't tend to be worthless tier. E.g Boa is the 3rd strongest shichibukai roughly maybe higher or slightly lower. Big mom is a Yonkou and there's also Garp's female friend who honestly about as much as a badass as he is. Robin really should have been much more powerful than she currently is however.
The biggest problem for me with a potential Big Mom and Luffy fighting right now is how Oda treated/has been treating Kaidou. In comparison to Big Mom, Oda has been hyping Kaidou up as this "whole different level" opponent for Luffy to get us excited about their fight. None of this is happening with Big Mom, and I don't think it's because Oda thinks lesser of Big Mom, as opposed to Oda trying to tell us that Big Mom isn't going to directly confront the Straw Hats in the same way (which would make even more sense if Kaidou is supposed to be Luffy's first Yonkou fight). Then there's the fact that Luffy only has part of his and none of the back up he had in Dressrosa. Then you throw in the whole "Year of Sanji" comments and I still think there's a chance the Straw Hats will just escape and not fight Big Mom at all/will just end up knocking off a couple of members in her crew.
That said, my theory will depend on who has Sanji's cuff keys. If Big Mom herself has them, I'm throwing all of this out the window.
That said, my theory will depend on who has Sanji's cuff keys. If Big Mom herself has them, I'm throwing all of this out the window.
Ganzlinger
Member
But that's exactly what Judge said in the end of chapter 833, that Big Mom, "only she possesses the keys to all of those devices".
And the first Yonkou fight teased was Big Mom in Fishman Island and she swore to destroy Luffy. And seriously, if Luffy said he wants to defeat all of the Yonkou, it would be too tiresome to make this arc for her, go to Wano, defeat Kaido then go back to Big Mom and defeat her round 2 and perhaps breaking an alliance which isn't something Luffy would like to do because allies means friends to him.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
No it wouldn't there's only 3 major yonkou to fight reaching Raftel and Blackbeard is heavily implied to be the last of those fights. Keep in mind these are 4 strongest pirates in existence. This isn't Donflamingo. it would frankly be insulting to Big Mom as a character if she were defeted without any of Luffy main back up (Zorro isn't there and sanji is the damsel) and half the crew isn't there. Let aloe the fact he's doing a ridiculous amount of prep to fight kaidou, involing all of his crew law and probably the entire grand fleet. If you honestly think there'd be nothing strange in Luffy defeating her in this arc then i mean not exactly sure what to say. It would mean the difference between her and Kaidou is VAST despite the fact she should have at least as many resources as he does if not significantly more.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
Geez, Big Mom is broken. Any type of soul manipulation is hax as hell.
But fear not. SOUL KING BROOK IS THE KEY!
I had a feeling the big headed guy (who's not a giant lol) would be important somehow. He's the father of Lola and Chiffon, and Big Mom's former husband.
Very excited to see how things will develop from here going forward.
Note: Carrot died in the mirror world off-screen
My condolences.
But fear not. SOUL KING BROOK IS THE KEY!
I had a feeling the big headed guy (who's not a giant lol) would be important somehow. He's the father of Lola and Chiffon, and Big Mom's former husband.
Very excited to see how things will develop from here going forward.
Note: Carrot died in the mirror world off-screen
My condolences.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Doesn't Luffy fight Boa's sisters and get his ass handed to him and the only reason he survives is his haki which acted as a deus ex machina? Do you consider Ivankov a woman? They have a male and female form. Boa ran shop against people at the War of the Best. Never mind that one of Blackbeard's female crew mates looks like a complete beast. What about Monet? What about the ghost girl? They couldn't do shit against her. I think One Piece has been pretty good with this. The only thing is we haven't had a major villain be a woman since Alvida.
Women characters are rare but they are almost never weak. And even though you say all of this, the first thing I think when I think of female One Piece characters is Vivi putting out the bomb fire with her bare hands. What a bad ass.
Ganzlinger
Member
If you read my first comment after this chapter you wil see that I thought Chopper was being Captain Obvious when he said "we underestimated Big Mom". And I can't wait to see how they will escape this mess.
I am open minded to the possibility of Luffy receiving unexpected allies or that he will defeat her in a non conventional way. I trust Oda to surprise us. People always think that Luffy defeating his enemies is impossible, that happened against Crocodile, against Enel, against Rob Lucci, etc.
Luffy finds a way, that's what Oda has been telling us all along. Let's wait and see. But I really want Big Mom to go down in this arc, if this is only about saving Sanji and getting a copy of the poneglyph, then it will be pretty underwhelming imo.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Hahaha!! Nah she'll break herself outGeez, Big Mom is broken. Any type of soul manipulation is hax as hell.
But fear not. SOUL KING BROOK IS THE KEY!
I had a feeling the big headed guy (who's not a giant lol) would be important somehow. He's the father of Lola and Chiffon, and Big Mom's former husband.
Very excited to see how things will develop from here going forward.
Note: Carrot died in the mirror world off-screen
My condolences.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
I'm definitely feeling like this arc is going to be more or less it for Big Mom. I don't think Luffy is going to actually beat her down in a one-on-one here or anything like that (although he's almost certainly going to clash with her, the key to Sanji's bracelets being on her person seems to guarantee that), but I think some crazy shit is going to go down in this arc with regards to her kingdom / powerbase, and that will lead to her destruction at the hands of some other party (the government or Blackbeard, I'm thinking).
Big Mom feels like too powerful of an enemy for Luffy to completely defeat here, and it feels too early for him to defeat an Emperor, but I think it would be a little strange for Luffy to deal with her in some form here, go to Wano and fight Kaido, and then defeat Big Mom.
Big Mom feels like too powerful of an enemy for Luffy to completely defeat here, and it feels too early for him to defeat an Emperor, but I think it would be a little strange for Luffy to deal with her in some form here, go to Wano and fight Kaido, and then defeat Big Mom.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Luffy doesn't have enough manpower right now for him to handle big mom(plus whether he can beat her is unknown too). At this point they either have to..
A)get the vinsmokes,sun pirates and some of big moms crew in their side to handle the situation
Or
B)get sanji and bolt
A)get the vinsmokes,sun pirates and some of big moms crew in their side to handle the situation
Or
B)get sanji and bolt
Okay, this is pretty much the distinction that I talk about in OP about women being 'powerful'. Like, you can assign any character actual power levels, but what I mean is narrative power, which is how they are depicted expressing their influence over the plot. Women, or rather female forms, do not get to participate in fights in the same way that males do. And when they do, it's never favorable to them.
There are nearly always conditions to how a fight doesn't play out the normal way. For example, like Boa's sisters (who I think you're misremembering, I'm pretty sure he was kicking their ass and while they used their own haki to keep up), were in monster form when they fought Luffy (and even then, the fight was softened up. Luffy's punch's didn't land, he merely grabbed her and threw her to the ground, which is visually obscured by the blast effect) and their fight wasn't concluded because Luffy won out but because he decided to protect their tattooes in a way I don't think he'd have done for male villains. Monet also didn't fight Zoro to her fullest capability, she literally chickened out of that fight. Perona didn't lose because she was out muscled, but because Usopp freaked her out. The only fights where I feel the female combatant actually put forth their full potential and didn't hold back was only when it was girl v girl, such as Nami and that pointy lady or the CP9 lady. And even then, they're less out and out brutal and more gimmicky.
And you might "Okay, so what, males get gimmicky fights too that aren't entirely based on strength". True, but more often than not, they are and usually incorporate strength in a way. Like, Sanji's fight against the invisible man was gimmicky in some ways, or Zoro's fight with Usopp as his third sword, but they always came down to "Can I beat the shit out of the other guy". In the rare times females do out and out battle others, it's not anyone significant. I mean, who did Hancock fight in the Marineford war? Random mooks. Doflamingo fought the giant with the impromptu backstory, Mihawk fought Flower dude and Diamond guy and so on. Significant notable figures, while Hancock got table scraps. Who did Nami and Robin fight in Fishmen arc, when Hody Jones had a a whole crew for the guys to get individualized fights with? Random mooks. Hina is supposedly as strong as Smoker (or was pretimeskip), but we only see her fight random pirates.
So yeah, you can say that so and so is the Xth most powerful member of whatever powerful gang, but it just doesn't mean much when you end it with "but they didn't get a chance to show it because of whatever". Whatever nominal power Oda gives them, they rarely get a chance to show it in a narratively significant way and are treated very differently from male counterparts. Which is a problem when you set all the significant turning points of the world around violence. In OP, while skills like navigation and cooking and so on are valued, the fact is that if you're not able to beat the shit out of people, you're not really noteworthy in the history of the world. Which is why Oda often introduces his characters showing how they can fight, even if it's not really their main job. The Water's 7 people are supposed to be carpenters, but the important thing about them is that they know how to fight. And any group that doesn't know how to fight inevitably gets exploited (or protected, depending on their luck) by those that do. And when it's always only the males that do that, and when any female attempt at combat is side stepped with as much consistency as OP has done, it basically puts women in positions that lack influence. Hancock herself is the best possible example of this. Possibly the second strongest female fighter in the world, and she does jack shit. She was lazing around her ass until Luffy came in her life and now is just consistently supporting him in whatever. He needs to go to Impel down, she lets him hide under her skirts. He wants to train, she lets him crash on her island while he and Reyliegh do stuff. He wants to leave, she packs his bags for him. One of the most powerful female characters in the series, and she has no ambitions or interests of her own.
Other female characters DO have narrative power. Like Vivi. She had a kingdom to save and worked her ass off to do so. Except women with narrative power inevitably trade off any physical power they may have. Vivi was weak and had to entirely rely on Luffy and Crew's strength to take back her kingdom. Her role was doing non-combat tasks, like trying to talk people down or stop a bomb or whatever. Which is fine as a narrative tool, but then you realize that ALL women are like this. Either they have a kind of physical power that is rarely dealt with just straight up fighting like most male characters, or they are so weak that they never succeed at what their doing. Rare is the female character that is both ambitious enough to have narrative strength AND strong enough to accomplish something.
So, to summarize, female fights are usually lacking in either brutality (which means they are usually beaten via gimmick rather than a measure of strength) and significance (which means women are usually fighting faceless mook opponents), and when they do get those two, it's usually with weak characters like Rebecca or Vivi or even Tashigi who are consistently humiliatingly outmatched. I can't think of a drawn out, straight up fight involving a female that ends because one participant unleased their full power against the other. Which is what makes Big Mom an anomaly. She's brutal already, there's no reason to not have Luffy out and out fight her like he has all other opponents. She has pretty clear ambitions, like many other OP villains had, and is active in the world of OP, so she's not just a stooge whatever respective leader she's following. And she's sure as shit not weak. The only thing against her is that she's got a monsterous design. Again, the problem isn't necessarily that OP won't have women hurt, it's that the good guys will not hurt female figures that are attractive. Ugly women, like Alvida and the Mole lady if I'm remembering right, can get punched in the face no problem. But I'm willing to overlook that because Big Mom is otherwise exactly what I'm asking for.
With such a rare fulfillment of everything I wanted in female characters in OP, the idea of a fight with her being side stepped yet again isn't appealing to me.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I actually agree with you, and I've been waiting for Big Mom so we can finally see Luffy take down a woman pirate. I forgot about the details in a lot of those woman fights, but you're actually right. Sometimes it's hard for me to forget One Piece is ultimately a boys comic.
I disagree with Vivi bing weak though. I remember her fighting someone in Alabasta but I could be wrong. Also, it's not really a negative that Vivi needed help to save her Kingdom. Luffy fought Crocodile twice and lost. The odds were insurmountable. I don't think Vivi needing help to save her country makes her weak.
Also, doesn't Hancoxk beat Pacifistas? Something that just a few chapters before, Luffy and the others couldn't beat? She also fights Smoker.
Ganzlinger
Member
I agree with you, I dont think Luffy alone can defeat Big Mom, she could go down due to a lot of events combined, not only Luffy.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Blackbeard shows up unexpectedly,beats her down and takes her fruit
igordennis
Member
You're right veelk, i also really want the ultimate battle of Luffy vs Big Mom to be as drawn out and ruthless as any of the others he had. In fact it should be even more so because this is going to be the first fucking Emperor he faces. This should be the biggest battle yet. It should be, would be incredibly disappointing if it didn't.
BobTheFork
Member
I think her power will be her undoing. She will likely fight by putting soul into objects as part of her fighting and she will slowly run out of power and turn older and older as the fights goes on.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I want to see Luffy knock Big Mom's shit but I doubt he can do it without a big plot twist. He's severely underpowered at the mo.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Ooo that sounds like a pretty good idea, believable and mean her power has to have some sort of limit, every single one has
Edit: I still stand by what I said too if he could maintain gear 4th he can give the high tiers a great fight
BobTheFork
Member
Yeah, some kind of limit or trick weakness to it. I don't see Luffy just beating her but I'm not convinced someone else gets the assist in his fight.
You know this also means at some point in the fight we get...OLD LUFFY!
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Well we already know fear seems to be some sort of safeguard against it, which we know luffy has none.
Also I agree no assists here.
Expecting Luffy to take down Big Mom isn't that far off from expecting Luffy to take down Shanks. I mean, it COULD happen, BIg Mom is more vile than Shanks, but there's definitely huge implications that she isn't that bad outside of her eating disorder. There's a huge chance Big Mom will take a liking to Luffy after a brief clash. That doesn't mean Big Mom isn't powerful, she's one of the Emperors afterall, but I do not think we're going to see an "epic fight" between the two but we will see Big Mom fight in future wars and whatnot.
TheGreatDirector
Banned
I want Big Mom to be the first major woman big bad Luffy fights for real. Let us see the strength of an emperor once more.
That being said, I have no idea how you can fight a soul devil fruit. It seems she could just take your life with the flick of her hand.
That being said, I have no idea how you can fight a soul devil fruit. It seems she could just take your life with the flick of her hand.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
She paid Caesar to poison children with drug candy. Not that bad? Wtf.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Lol people are buying that family crap lol yea right.
Luffy doesn't have to take her down on her own.
I mean, Doflamingo wasn't. Not only was he significantly injured by Law before their fight started, Doflamingo outlasted Luffy's Gear 4th. Dressrosa citizens had to carry Luffy away, or else Luffy would have been at Doflamingo's mercy. Third party interference basically means that Doflamingo would have otherwise won, so he's basically stronger than Luffy despite losing. I think if Luffy were to pull a win against an emperor, it'd be an expanded version of that. Which is admittedly problematic when half his crew, including Roronoa "second best fighter and way better than Sanji" Zoro, is off on Wano. If there was a way for Luffy to win, it'd be through a whole crew concentration on taking out just Big Mom, with Law's crew being part of it as well, plus whatever sympathetic allies they can pick up, like Pekoms. Anything less would sell the Yonko title short, especially given the bar Whitebeard set by tanking the entire Marine force.
But they can still have an out and out battle where Luffy pulls out all the stops to do as much damage as he possibly can, which is mostly what I'm talking about. I'm fine with them not beating big mom, maybe even making an alliance, but have them fight it out like any other villain before they do. Don't sugarcoat it, don't play gimmicks, just brawl it out. That's all I ask.
Edit: I also find Big Mom on the more interesting side of characterization. One moment, she's impulse driven and manic, the next she's thinking 5 steps ahead of her opponents. She's one of the few characters who seems just flat out legitimately intelligent. Especially given that her fruit is established to not be life related, I wonder where how she gets her intelligence. And she's constantly thinking of how to expand her power not just through muscle, but through technology, as evidence by her trying to acquire the Germa kingdom and Caesar. Personally, I'm more impressed by her plan than Kaido's "Guys....guys....what if we made an army....guys....what if we made an army.....that's all animals! Guys, wouldn't that be wild?! Ha! See what I did there? Wild!"
Again, it's less about physical strength and more about combination of narrative strength WITH physical strength. Vivi knows how to fight with her pinky thing, but she basically is inferior to any fighter she encountered. She's Gin level, at best, which is a character so minor that you probably don't remember. Try comparing her to Wiper, who had the same basic goal as her with his land. Wiper was outclassed as well, but he threw himself in fights, fights we personally saw as the audience, against characters that matter, like Enel. That is instrumentally important. He still lost, but we saw him personally get in there and fight it out. Or how about Kyros and Rebecca. Rebecca....you may have to remind me because I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure she only wins the Arena fights she gets in (which by coincidence she fights in a fighting style that is designed to have her not get hit and not hit her opponent in a way that will injure them, allowing Oda to not have her fight in the kind of brutality that he has literally every male character fight in). Meanwhile, Kyros, despite lacking a leg, is the one who takes down Diamante (while protecting Rebecca, no less). I went to check out Hancock vs the Pacifista's, because I didn't remember, and I realized why when I found it. The fight wasn't shown. You can look for yourself, it's chapter 570. All that happens is Sentomaru asks why she took out so many pacifista's and she gives a lame answer. But we don't actually see her do anything, while we get showcased to fight after fight with male characters in that war. So what Hancock gains in physical power, she sacrifices in narrative power by not only having the audience not actually seeing this supposedly kickass moment, but also by having it be against mooks. Elite mooks, I grant you, but mooks nevertheless. There's a reason why they were used as the first measure of power in the timeskip, to show how the crew had grown.
Now, you could easily argue that it's not unreasonable that Vivi needs help taking back her kingdom, but there is nevertheless a clear distinction between how females, in general, are depicted in that kind of position to how males are. Wiper can take on Enel and even do legitimate, meaningful damage, Kyros can take on out one of Doflamingo's Elite 4, even one of the Fishman Island brothers defeats one of Hody's crew, but all the likes of Vivi and Rebecca and Shirahoshi are consistently physically inadequate to anything, while physically capable characters like Hancock or Hina or Monet are constantly given an out for why we don't have to see them fight. Either they don't fight anyone of note, or they do it off screen, or they evade the actual fighting because of some gimmick by which they avoid being injured and usually injuring others. But what it comes down to, there's always some excuse we can't get a real fight with the women in the series. At some point, it gets pretty transparent that Oda just doesn't want to actually involve women in his fights, which is a significant problem in his depiction of women when fighting is what makes the world go round in OP.
I mean, Doflamingo wasn't. Not only was he significantly injured by Law before their fight started, Doflamingo outlasted Luffy's Gear 4th. Dressrosa citizens had to carry Luffy away, or else Luffy would have been at Doflamingo's mercy. Third party interference basically means that Doflamingo would have otherwise won, so he's basically stronger than Luffy despite losing. I think if Luffy were to pull a win against an emperor, it'd be an expanded version of that. Which is admittedly problematic when half his crew, including Roronoa "second best fighter and way better than Sanji" Zoro, is off on Wano. If there was a way for Luffy to win, it'd be through a whole crew concentration on taking out just Big Mom, with Law's crew being part of it as well, plus whatever sympathetic allies they can pick up, like Pekoms. Anything less would sell the Yonko title short, especially given the bar Whitebeard set by tanking the entire Marine force.
But they can still have an out and out battle where Luffy pulls out all the stops to do as much damage as he possibly can, which is mostly what I'm talking about. I'm fine with them not beating big mom, maybe even making an alliance, but have them fight it out like any other villain before they do. Don't sugarcoat it, don't play gimmicks, just brawl it out. That's all I ask.
Edit: I also find Big Mom on the more interesting side of characterization. One moment, she's impulse driven and manic, the next she's thinking 5 steps ahead of her opponents. She's one of the few characters who seems just flat out legitimately intelligent. Especially given that her fruit is established to not be life related, I wonder where how she gets her intelligence. And she's constantly thinking of how to expand her power not just through muscle, but through technology, as evidence by her trying to acquire the Germa kingdom and Caesar. Personally, I'm more impressed by her plan than Kaido's "Guys....guys....what if we made an army....guys....what if we made an army.....that's all animals! Guys, wouldn't that be wild?! Ha! See what I did there? Wild!"
Again, it's less about physical strength and more about combination of narrative strength WITH physical strength. Vivi knows how to fight with her pinky thing, but she basically is inferior to any fighter she encountered. She's Gin level, at best, which is a character so minor that you probably don't remember. Try comparing her to Wiper, who had the same basic goal as her with his land. Wiper was outclassed as well, but he threw himself in fights, fights we personally saw as the audience, against characters that matter, like Enel. That is instrumentally important. He still lost, but we saw him personally get in there and fight it out. Or how about Kyros and Rebecca. Rebecca....you may have to remind me because I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure she only wins the Arena fights she gets in (which by coincidence she fights in a fighting style that is designed to have her not get hit and not hit her opponent in a way that will injure them, allowing Oda to not have her fight in the kind of brutality that he has literally every male character fight in). Meanwhile, Kyros, despite lacking a leg, is the one who takes down Diamante (while protecting Rebecca, no less). I went to check out Hancock vs the Pacifista's, because I didn't remember, and I realized why when I found it. The fight wasn't shown. You can look for yourself, it's chapter 570. All that happens is Sentomaru asks why she took out so many pacifista's and she gives a lame answer. But we don't actually see her do anything, while we get showcased to fight after fight with male characters in that war. So what Hancock gains in physical power, she sacrifices in narrative power by not only having the audience not actually seeing this supposedly kickass moment, but also by having it be against mooks. Elite mooks, I grant you, but mooks nevertheless. There's a reason why they were used as the first measure of power in the timeskip, to show how the crew had grown.
Now, you could easily argue that it's not unreasonable that Vivi needs help taking back her kingdom, but there is nevertheless a clear distinction between how females, in general, are depicted in that kind of position to how males are. Wiper can take on Enel and even do legitimate, meaningful damage, Kyros can take on out one of Doflamingo's Elite 4, even one of the Fishman Island brothers defeats one of Hody's crew, but all the likes of Vivi and Rebecca and Shirahoshi are consistently physically inadequate to anything, while physically capable characters like Hancock or Hina or Monet are constantly given an out for why we don't have to see them fight. Either they don't fight anyone of note, or they do it off screen, or they evade the actual fighting because of some gimmick by which they avoid being injured and usually injuring others. But what it comes down to, there's always some excuse we can't get a real fight with the women in the series. At some point, it gets pretty transparent that Oda just doesn't want to actually involve women in his fights, which is a significant problem in his depiction of women when fighting is what makes the world go round in OP.
Cloud Strife
Member
It's definitely a problem, but think about the target audience this series is drawn and designed for.
Doesn't need an in depth analysis to explain what's fairly obvious.
Doesn't need an in depth analysis to explain what's fairly obvious.
What I mean is, are the keys actually on Big Mom herself. While Judge says Big Mom has the keys, that could just mean "the keys are in Big Mom's room" or "Big Mom keeps the keys in a private safe", etc... In other words, is there a way for Luffy and co to get the keys without confronting Big Mom directly.
I'm assuming Luffy isn't going to defeat all the Yonkou and that Big Mom is going to fall victim to someone else if Luffy doesn't beat her here. I mean don't most people assume Blackbeard is going to take out Shanks? I could easily see the same happening to Big Mom in the future (ex: Akainu, Blackbeard again, etc...).
Thinking about it more, another big reason Big Mom can't fall here is Jinbei. Fishman Island still needs Big Mom's protection, and Luffy and his Grand Fleet are not in a position yet to offer that sort of protection. If Luffy were to somehow beat Big Mom without half his crew and none of the fleet, that would be big news for him, but it wouldn't bring recognition to his fleet/allies or let the world know that the Straw Hats are now bigger than just the original members and Law. Whereas Kaidou's defeat by Luffy with the entire Straw Hat crew, fleet, and new allies including Marco and the Minks, will establish Luffy as a force that could protect Fishman Island.
Yeah, I know, but that just seems like such a poor argument to me.
I mean, in the last few years, cartoons have had pretty awesome female characters. The producer of Legend of Korra said that the boy kids in his audience didn't care that Korra was a girl, they cared that she was awesome. It's predecessor had a lot of awesome female character that were huge fan favorites, not just the guys, and it's one of the most successful cartoons out there. Star Wars episode 7 resonated extremely well with boys and girls. There are so many successful children's franchises that I feel make female characters a part of the action without treating them differently and the boy audience eats it up as much as the girl audience. So it seems like a poor argument to just assume that boys will demand females be sexualized and treated more tenderly than males, because there's evidence to the contrary. I think if Nami and Robin had more fights and been tougher, I think girls and boys would think they're awesome.
You could argue that's the american audience, but honestly, I don't buy that either. I'm not going to pretend that I know the japanese culture or anything, but it seems to me that the success of Attack on Titan (I know, not a children's story, but really, I'm guessing a lot of children read it/watch the anime the same way plenty of kids sneak in to see R rated movies) at least suggests that their willing to accept nontraditional roles for women. I'd be willing to bet if I went digging, I'd be able to find more, maybe even shonen. I mean, they just elected their first female governor (problematic though she may be). And to argue that the japanese are incapable of accepting these roles for women comes off as almost racist to me. You know, it's not like they're the only culture with defined roles for women that they conservatively stick to, and we are certainly making progress. And it's not like there is no such thing as Japanese feminism. I don't see why Japan is would be immune to feminist criticism any more than other countries media is, or less receptive of a change in their art of female roles than any other country. In my opinion, it would be like here: a small faction of conservatives complaining, but providing that the story is actually good, that will win the hearts and minds of most people.
Lastly, I think the argument here that having a decent amount of capable women would render OP 'not a boys comic' is a bit overblown. We're still talking pirates and gangs and guns and swords and mythical creatures and fighting and so on. These are typically considered things that appeal to kids of any kind. I mean, to use Star Wars as an example, is it no longer a male franchise now that it included a female protagonist and more female characters? I mean, the content, themes, and even story beats are all the same, but does the mere fact that there is a female doing the same thing males did for years suddenly make it feminized? The only people who seem to think so are MRA, and we know what their opinions are worth. And basically, that's all I'm trying to suggest here: Even out the male-female ratio a bit and have females be equal participants to fights. Honestly, if we were to rewrite OP and just gender flip a few key characters whose gender isn't even relevant to them, would it not be the same basic story except more inclusive? Maybe a bit more interesting for the sheer novelty of some women in unusual roles? Because that is literally the argument I'm putting forth in it's most basic form. Not to change anything about OP you'd miss, just shake it up a bit. This isn't even going into the studies that, atleast here in america, have shown that girls and boys' toy interest overlap a lot more than media has taught us growing up, to the point where there is a movement to combine the boy and girl toy sessions in stores because that kind of segregation just feeds bad social norms. And american comic books turn out to have plenty of female readers who love superheroes, including all the crazy 'masculine' shit. Whose to say this isn't the same with manga? Not to mention that OP already has a massive female base. It just seems kind of absurd to suggest that it's a boy's manga when roughly 50% of it's female fans find enough appealing in it to be fans. At that point, it seems like it would just be a children's manga, whether it's 'aimed' at boys or not.
I actually could say more, but I already went on longer than I expected. I just do not buy that argument, at all. It just seems like it's "Boys will be boys" in marketer terms. It just seems like another excuse to poorly depict women in relation to men. I don't see much evidence that supports it for general manga, but even if I did and everything I just said above is bullshit, even then... this is One Goddamn Piece. Like, does anyone seriously think that after 19 years of being the single most successful manga ever, often selling more than it's next 10 closest rivals combined, that it is in any danger of dropping in popularity just because it gives it's female characters equal treatment? I can't even imagine what would have to happen for the japanese audience to drop this manga of all things. Short of straight up drawing hentai, I find it difficult to believe that Oda couldn't push anything through into it.
Edit: Cloud, I hope you know me well enough to realize taht I am only attacking your argument here, not you, just in case you read this the wrong way and think it's aggressive. I honestly just don't buy the argument on any level.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Wait how did I miss this...
Kaido- 3 calamities
Big mom- 3 Sweet commanders
Tho I guess it remains to be seen if the sweet commander's are her top guys
Kaido- 3 calamities
Big mom- 3 Sweet commanders
Tho I guess it remains to be seen if the sweet commander's are her top guys
I used to agree with this, but Oda really does write women badly. Like look at My Hero Academia and Stone Ocean, manga that ran alongside One Piece. Jolyne's one of the physically strongest fighters and best written characters in Jojo's. My Hero Academia treats every female character equivalently to the males, giving them unique crazy designs, body types, and correct anatomy. You never see that in One Piece.
And My Hero Academia is running now, Stone Ocean ran in 2000. It really is one of Oda's failings.
Big Mom is really refreshing, and I hope they have an Oars level battle against her. I don't think she's meant to become a good guy, except maybe a "good guy" in a cover art arc if she's defeated.
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