You must be hearing different things then. I only hear him bashing Wilders, even when it is not even relevant to do so, while not promoting solutions for the problems we clearly have. He thinks he owns some moral high ground too. I think D66 has far more capable people on their list.
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OT | Dutch General Election 2017 | Exit Poll: Major underperformance for Wilders
- Thread starter CrunchyB
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You must be hearing different things then. I only hear him bashing Wilders, even when it is not even relevant to do so, while not promoting solutions for the problems we clearly have. He thinks he owns some moral high ground too. I think D66 has far more capable people on their list.
I think the main problem is him mainly getting coverage in the news when he's doing that and not when he's in parliament debating other matters.
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
the dream scenario. Can't wait for the meltdowns if it happens.
Fallout-NL
Member
That's fair and I agree, totally. But I figure beggars can't be choosers when it comes to the critical importance of at least letting your government know that they should make climate change a top priority.
That's just theatre though. A necessary evil.
Wind's Howling
Member
Voted D66. I did not vote on the man, but I voted on what the party wants and wishes to accomplish. That alone is more than enough for me.
This narrative isn't true in the slightest. D66 has and will remain to vote against ideas and laws that they do not agree with.
But in The Netherlands we have to deal with bargaining. And that means that sometimes you have to give in to get something in return. And of course, you can sit back and do nothing for four years like the CDA did and have no positive influence (no matter how little) while pointing at everyone else and saying "yeah, you ruined this country." That is an option.
But I'm glad that most political parties aren't like the CDA these past four years. And are willing to compromise and negotiate with other parties to try and make things better. Had everyone just sat back and done nothing, we would have been off far worse over the past four years.
I guess I just did a bit more research into different party plans and actions they have taken in the past, because your view seems entirely based off of 2 minute news bits from NOS.nl, I'm sorry for saying.
As for having a moral high ground over Wilders... I'm pretty sure most of everyone has that, for a fact.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Any ideas when we can expect projections?
That is true.
Btw, anyone here gonna open up a bottle of CHAMPAGNE when DENK reaches 0 seats? I would love that. And a beer too for Art1kel for getting the same results.
You don't have to go ad hominem when someone disagrees with you. But I guess that is Pechtold style.
I did not say he had a moral highground over Wilders, but over everyone.
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
I am Turkish and I hope DENK gets exactly zero seats. I really hate polarising parties.
Yes, they are basically the PVV but on the other side of things. Questioning legitimacy of institutions, spreading conspiratorial nonsense, scaring people. Plus, you know, we don't need another party that does whatever a foreign government wants. We have Thierry Baudet for that already.
That was not my intention. But when your claim is "all Pechtold does is call out Wilders," there is only one conclusion I can draw. And it wasn't meant as a slight to you personally, so I'm sorry you took it like that. But D66 is a serious party, with a well thought out party plan. They are also responsible for a good number of proposals and laws over the years, reducing them to two lines just seems like ignorance.
I mean, all parties in The Netherlands have well thought out party plans, with the exception of some 1-man party's and the PVV. Reducing any of them to "oh they only care about x or y" isn't fair to them.
I agree with the traffic situation. Public Transport is a disaster.
Sadly my commute is between Amsterdam and Utrecht so it is the only viable option.
The prices are actually higher than driving a car and the seating situation is... well just plain horrible.
I do feel however that something needs to be done in order to cut traffic emission.
'Rekening rijden' shouldn't be the end all solution though. Promoting electric or making public transport a viable option should definitely be longer term goals.
One bright side to rekening rijden as GL would like to implement it, is that you won't pay taxes for owning a car anymore. Also purchasing a car will become cheaper.
It's just that driving it, and emitting CO2 is going to be taxed more heavily.
A fair trade off to make a start for a greener future IMHO.
My point is that he is so forced in doing so I think he is reaching the exact opposite of his intentions. He has been doing it for many years, I just can't take it anymore. Wilders is not the only issue in this country, but addressing him in every single chance he gets is completely unnecessary and actually keeps Wilders in the spotlight, exactly where he wants to be ironically. But yeah, overall D66 has a nice program and I wouldn't mind having them in a new coalition.
That would be great, unfortunately I think they will get at least 1 seat so we will have to endure 4 years of their bullshit in the Tweede kamer. Le sigh
Boozeroony
Gold Member
VNL here. Come at me!
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
I just want to say one more thing to PVV voters.
I hope you understand that with the party program being only one A4 Geert Wilders is insulting you. He acts like his voters are too stupid to read more pages and actual ideas for our country.
Even the calculations he make on the program is a direct insult. He made it as simple as possible (even tho he has to change 3 constitutions which is impossible now) because he sees people unable to understand slightly more complex party programs.
He does not take the time to create one because he thinks PVV voters don't really care for solutions. That they vote out of fear and protest.
With this in mind go out and vote.
I hope you understand that with the party program being only one A4 Geert Wilders is insulting you. He acts like his voters are too stupid to read more pages and actual ideas for our country.
Even the calculations he make on the program is a direct insult. He made it as simple as possible (even tho he has to change 3 constitutions which is impossible now) because he sees people unable to understand slightly more complex party programs.
He does not take the time to create one because he thinks PVV voters don't really care for solutions. That they vote out of fear and protest.
With this in mind go out and vote.
I strongly disagree with rekeningrijden for a very simple reason, you're implementing a very complex system with significant associated costs, not to mention all the hassle over tuning the rates. Right now we just check how much petrol Shell, Texaco et al have sold and ask them to cut a check for the excise taxes over that amount. Incredibly low enforcement cost, and yet it reflects very well the environmental impact of driving, since even driving style is taken into account as people who drive more vigorously will be burning more petrol. And sure, you can't lower/raise rates for the time of day, but uh, nobody is going out on the road at 8am for funsies, they do so because they have to be at work at a certain time. That's not going to change if you make it more expensive.
Why come at you? I don't agree with the vast majority of VNL's program, but it's your choice. And at least they're respectable enough to have had their program calculated for effects on employment, economic growth etc. unlike some other populist parties.
Any coalition being formed in a political landscape as fractured as ours isn't going to last four years. The whole reason we had a government as stable as the one we've had for the past few years was because it consisted of just two parties. You'll have new elections well before the four years are up.
Why come at you? I don't agree with the vast majority of VNL's program, but it's your choice. And at least they're respectable enough to have had their program calculated for effects on employment, economic growth etc. unlike some other populist parties.
That would be great, unfortunately I think they will get at least 1 seat so we will have to endure 4 years of their bullshit in the Tweede kamer. Le sigh
Any coalition being formed in a political landscape as fractured as ours isn't going to last four years. The whole reason we had a government as stable as the one we've had for the past few years was because it consisted of just two parties. You'll have new elections well before the four years are up.
ClosingADoor
Member
Agreed. I still don't get why we need this. Either just tax fuel more (although it is already pretty expensive)or tax polluting cars more. Same effect. And make sure electric cars are going to be cheaper then traditional cars, for most people an electric car will be enough. And if they need one for a holiday for longer distances, they can rent one.
#hoedan =)
I think that there are enough alternatives for PVV-voters on the right-wing with actual party programs for those who align themselves on those matters.
Why? VNL offers an alternative at least for right-wing oriented voters. It actually has a program.
Agree.
Fair enough. Part of this is the media's fault, they do the same thing the Americans did with Trump, buy into his bullshit so much because headlines with his name in get the most attention. Instead of reporting the news, they're reporting on whatever gets their advertisers the most clicks. Very annoying.
Which is why I personally didn't mind the way the NOS set up the debate yesterday, it gave the different people a chance to talk about issues instead of getting into another "all Islam must die" debate with Wilders.
You are correct in saying that Pechtold goes in on Wilders hard, but I think he just can't help himself. Hell, I find myself shouting at my TV screen when Wilders is spewing that stuff every damn time. It just gets under my skin.
BrassDragon
Member
Ain't that the truth. Flabbergasted that his party polls at 2 seats after months of floating near 0.
He's been employing Cambridge Analytica, the same Roger Mercer-funded social media doctoring engine that Bannon and Farange rode in on.
Even though our electoral system is a little more robust and the guy is still on the margins, these developments do keep me up. Democracy is having a tough time lately. Vote, Dutchies and encourage your family and friends to the polls!
I was a bit weary about the fact that Dutch elections are in the middle of the week (in Portugal they're usually on sunday, so work usually doesn't get in the way), but at least in the Hague they set up a voting booth in the central station, and there was quite a line in there - nice way to counter the issues with having to go out of your way to do your part for the democratic process.
It's never been a problem, you can vote from early morning to late at night. And there's polling stations everywhere. Worst case scenario you can even vote in a different voting district and go during the lunch break at work or allow someone else to place a vote in your stead.
All in all everyone should be fine, all cases seem to be well covered.
Fallout-NL
Member
Yep, but the counterargument is that a better solution would be to just tax fuel more heavily. Same effect, way way easier to implement. Kinda counting on them to figure that out for themselves though. Maybe I'm too optimistic.
runningjoke
Member
The downside to this is that people will just buy fuel in Germany, wasting more fuel on the trip over there.
YourMaster
Member
This to me is the single biggest problem we have with politics at the moment, that our parliament doesn't know how to act like members of parliament, and have swallowed the same bullshit you have.
First of all, ever single vote goes along party lines, instead of according to the best judgement of the individuals.
But the most serious problem is the 'give a little, get a little' attitude where they forget that in both cases it is the population that loses. If party x has 10 seats and is the only party to hold a certain position, we have to assume that the country as a whole is against it, and the other 140 members should under no circumstance for for that. Instead they trade voting for this bad policy to get their own bad policies voted for in return.
It's not about getting as much laws passed as possible in 4 years time, it is about getting proper laws in place. Laws where at least 76 members can truly from the heart say they fully believe it will benefit the people.
And yes, D66 is a party that will try to promote their fringe views in support for upholding bad laws. I would much rather have that they would do nothing - some stability doesn't hurt anybody.
Thing is that The Netherlands is way too small for this and you pretty much ruin the industry in any province that is at a border.
Currently I'm paying 1,33 Euro instead of 1,59 in Germany over the Dutch price. That means I'm saving over 12 Euro per tank of gas already.
Taxing more just makes that gap with the rest of Europe even more ridiculous.
Fallout-NL
Member
I suppose this only works for people who live really really close to the border, no?
By industry you mean gas stations?
Also, the gap already is fucking ridiculous. Just look at the bpm you have on cars here.
But widening the gap further is what we're arguing for though, right?
Also, one thing they want to do is tax driving in heavy traffic more. So people chose to not drive between 730am and 9am but a bit later...
The further you increase the gap between the prices, the less "close" you need to live to the border to save money, though.
At the 12 Euro it is currently, it already takes quite a few liters of fuel to make it not worth the drive. Combine it with a bit of grocery shopping and you're saving a lot of money in one trip.
Economically speaking, it is not the smartest of moves. Plus it also indirectly unfairly taxes people not living close to the border over the rest of NL.
ClosingADoor
Member
This shouldn't matter anymore if we can get a good amount on electric vehicles quickly.
All the talk is about making polluting more expensive. How about we make driving green cheaper instead? That's always the thing that gets me about these things. Sure, go ahead and tax the multinationals more on this stuff. But your average citizen is not in the position to pay double the price on his commute to work. Already in a lot of situations, actually working is practically discouraged due to high taxes, subsidies for lower incomes, etc. If you then also go and make actually getting to work more expensive, why even bother anymore.
At least we are then finally doing something for the provinces instead of just the randstad!
You have gas stations, you have collection stations, you have the people that drive the trucks to transport the gas.
Thinking this just impacts the stations is unfair, it would impact a lot of people and businesses.
Yes, if only there was some way we could perhaps formulate policy that would apply to neighbouring countries as well. Perhaps some sort of supranational body to coordinate policy across the continent.
YourMaster
Member
Which is horrible of course. It's not up to a political party to try and change the behavior of the people, it is there to support the choices they make. And if they want to change the world, come up with better alternatives, not make an already bad choice (nobody likes driving in busy traffic) even worse.
Beyond that, there's very little room for moving traffic to other time slots, in the randstad area there's loads of traffic from early morning til late in the evening already.
Yes, if only there was some way we could perhaps formulate policy that would apply to neighbouring countries as well. Perhaps some sort of supranational body to coordinate policy across the continent.
yeah, but unfortunately that body never does anything effective. Banning toll roads continent wide and having a universal system for car and fuel tax would be a an effective policy, so they have never made it and never will.
Fallout-NL
Member
Yeah, it's difficult, certainly. Though still better than the nightmare I think implementation of rekeningrijden will be. Not to mention the privacy concerns.
A real solution would be making other (greener) options more viable somehow. Electric cars (and allowing them to actually be much cheaper, not only for businesses), better public transport, fasttracking self driving cars to decrease traffic jams, etc.
Yes, if only there was some way we could perhaps formulate policy that would apply to neighbouring countries as well. Perhaps some sort of supranational body to coordinate policy across the continent.
I should have incorporated this in my response. Yes, EU needs to actually mean something and this is one of those things.
It damn well should be when it comes to climate change. It's the one area where it's high time to start protecting us from ourselves.
/edit: but yeah, fucking with people who have to deal with rush hour traffic is just shortsighted. Don't punish, provide and encourage better alternatives.
Sure, but I think impacting certain industries is part of the idea though if we're to change this economy into a more sustainable one.
Hahaha that would be awesome, but I doubt it some how. The coward leader of DENK had so far refused to call Erdogan on his bullshit.
Btw voting later, I just walked in there and there was a long line. Went for coffee instead. Lol
Magic Mushroom
Member
This. Lots of peeps on Twitter who said they voted for him to. His program is bad enough, but his affection for human garbage like Julien Blanc and Milo Yiannopoulos makes it even worse.
I even prefer Jan Roos to Baudet, and that's telling.
YourMaster
Member
I think DENK is a party that deserves their seats. I don't like what they stand for, but they certainly represent a set of citizens.
Electric cars as they currently are, are no real solution. The technology simply isn't their yet as for now they require materials that are in short supply - sufficient for now - but if you want a significant amount of cars on the road the prices will skyrocket.
I don't believe in any policy against clime change that ignores the fact that we will as a planet use up all the fossil fuels. If one country uses less, others will use more or for a longer time.
So either accept this and find a way to fight climate change accepting this as fact, or work towards actual alternatives that will make people lose interest in pumping up the dead dinosaurs.
Daria Morgendorffer
Member
Gonna vote D66 later today, seemed like the best choice for me this time.
Its higher atm yeah.
ClosingADoor
Member
And voted. New voting location is literally across the street, hope they keep that one this time. It seems to switch around for every election here.
Also, damn at the size of that paper.
Also, damn at the size of that paper.
It does a lot of effective things, however it could be considerably more effective if provincial attitudes were to go away and people gave the European Parliament the tools it needed to effect proper policy rather than demanding all power remain with member state governments as it is right now.
runningjoke
Member
the higher the difference, the longer the distance it makes financial sense. Especially if you also buy your groceries there.
Yes, if only there was some way we could perhaps formulate policy that would apply to neighbouring countries as well. Perhaps some sort of supranational body to coordinate policy across the continent.
I'd actually be ok with an EU wide tax system. Should get rid of weird Dutch/Irish Sandwich constructions too
BrassDragon
Member
I appreciate their ability to energize young minority voters (because the established parties have been super weak in this area.) But their party platform, the suspected use of organized social media trolling and their tacit support for an openly hostile and increasingly authoritarian foreign government makes me wary to give them a seat at the table of democracy.
Norway doesn't have the population of the Netherlands but during the past few years now we've had many months of electric cars being the top selling model. 30% of cars sold the past year were electric. Yes, we're smaller, but when the market is there, and incentives (as we have), the cars get made, and people buy the cars. Even in this country, with long distances and mountains and shitty roads. So in the Netherlands you'd expect the percentage to be at least as good as it is for us.
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