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Overwatch Mafia |OT| Keep Your Vote On The Payload
- Thread starter Sorian
- Start date
First, yes, I feel 1 cop for 1 scum is a good trade. Cop is a very powerful role on paper, but in practice, especially on GAFia, they tend to be minor at best. I know we all like to imagine that amazing cop that lives to day 6, verifies 3 town and pins 2 scum all while dodging lynches and kills. This never happens, as far as I'm aware. Darryl came close in Archer and it was only because they had a private room to set it up. What does happen with regularity:
1) Cop dies without confirming anyone because breadcrumbing is too risky
2) Cop exonerates a few town during a panicked defensive claim, a few of which are dead
3) Cop hits a scum and we lynch, then the cop dies to whatever
How is this any different from putting them at risk of detection-by-deduction? At worst, they confirm a few town before dying (unless scum is really really lucky tonight) and this is what happens in 2, definitely an improvement over 1, and worse than 3, but the Cop is working towards 3 anyway.
The way I see it, without coordinated peeking the Cop's influence is more volatile and susceptible to spikes in effectiveness. They can be really strong (rarely happens) but also very ineffectual (happens often). With peeking, their survival is on a stricter timer but they will produce results that are, in my mind, consistent and workable.
Anyway I don't play Mafia as much as the rest of you but every Cop that has gone it alone have been underwhelming. I'd like to see something new.
1) Cop dies without confirming anyone because breadcrumbing is too risky
2) Cop exonerates a few town during a panicked defensive claim, a few of which are dead
3) Cop hits a scum and we lynch, then the cop dies to whatever
How is this any different from putting them at risk of detection-by-deduction? At worst, they confirm a few town before dying (unless scum is really really lucky tonight) and this is what happens in 2, definitely an improvement over 1, and worse than 3, but the Cop is working towards 3 anyway.
The way I see it, without coordinated peeking the Cop's influence is more volatile and susceptible to spikes in effectiveness. They can be really strong (rarely happens) but also very ineffectual (happens often). With peeking, their survival is on a stricter timer but they will produce results that are, in my mind, consistent and workable.
Anyway I don't play Mafia as much as the rest of you but every Cop that has gone it alone have been underwhelming. I'd like to see something new.
AND YOU HOW ABOUT YOU POST SOMETHING WITH SUBSTANCE
I'm insulted, frankly.
I like to think that if I was colluding with Ezekel, who I respect as a player, we would be smart enough not to respond to prods within a minute of each other. Give us that much credit at least.
I like to think that if I was colluding with Ezekel, who I respect as a player, we would be smart enough not to respond to prods within a minute of each other. Give us that much credit at least.
I was only half joking with my last post about you. You have anything to add to the discussion?
StanleyPalmtree
Banned
damnit bronx.
i knew. i knew what the joke was gonna be, i completely knew.
and i still laughed when revealing it.
Also I wanted to mention this earlier but the fact that we're openly discussing the disadvantages of peeking only serves to undermine any peeking we do in the future. This is a pattern I often see with GAFia where people will, enthusiastically even, brainstorm strategies for scum teams.
Not reading much from anyone so far. The "there is no cop" posts are throwing me off, but I think they're just confused about how Mafia works. Scum wouldn't be dumb enough to make posts like that.
....unless scum wants us to think they're too smart to be dumb
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Hello. Sorry, I work weird ass hours. Such is the life of an enlisted aircraft maintainer.
Everyone is playing as they normally would, from my experience. Although this is my first time playing with a few people (Burb, Xam, Haly, just to name a couple), so I don't have many striking impressions.
Mazre's posts have caught my interest, and I am wary of Kyan because, well, it's Kyan, and he plays a really convincing scum game. I know this sounds incredibly fluffy and vague but I haven't had the chance to read the thread much in the past few hours and I am doing my best ;_;
I don't really see the point in a peek; it feels way too risky for no guarantee of a reward or positive result. As I said, I am against a day one mass claim.
I just had the best fucking cannoli.
What else would you like to know?
EzekelRAGE
Member
Had nothing to do with you tbh. Was paying attn to the peek talk trying to see how it worked.
TheGoddamn
Member
Role name, ability/ies (exact details at your discretion)
What do you think of this idea? It is a role madness game, and because there are no vanillas, everyone has agency. GAFia games tend to lose PRs very early on anyway, but this way we at least have some semblance of organization and some way of tracking each other's words and actions. It gives us a baseline with which to work.
Well aware. Sucks.
My issue with it comes from, say, Mercy revealing (likely doc), and scum gets them with a Strongman.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Despite my objections to a mass claim, we also need to consider that if the scum team is indeed random, then heroes like Mercy could be on that team.
But that is not a risk I am willing to take. We gain nothing from it other than knowing who is who.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Also my top town at the moment is Sophia. But she always strikes me as town, so ¯_(ツ
_/¯
_/¯I agree.
Alright, home for the night and about to head to bed, but having caught up here are a few of my thoughts.
Personally, I would be all for the peeking strategy. With that, if the cop catches scum on N1 they should claim immediately. A 1 for 1 trade seems fair to me. Better still would be if they manage to make it to N2 or N3 before catching scum. That way we'd have info showing one Scum and one or two Town. (And yeah, I really doubt a game with 22 power roles would be copless)
On the topic of role powers, mine fits my characters flavor as a skill they also have in game. I saw there was some discussion earlier about how powers/names might line up. Not seeing the current benefit to any name claiming yet.
WhereAreMahDragonz, I had three pieces of cookie cake in the past few hours and am probably a few minutes away from crashing, but cannoli sounds amazing right now for some reason.
Bronx-Man, that Winston joke got me, too. Thank you for that, lol.
Personally, I would be all for the peeking strategy. With that, if the cop catches scum on N1 they should claim immediately. A 1 for 1 trade seems fair to me. Better still would be if they manage to make it to N2 or N3 before catching scum. That way we'd have info showing one Scum and one or two Town. (And yeah, I really doubt a game with 22 power roles would be copless)
On the topic of role powers, mine fits my characters flavor as a skill they also have in game. I saw there was some discussion earlier about how powers/names might line up. Not seeing the current benefit to any name claiming yet.
WhereAreMahDragonz, I had three pieces of cookie cake in the past few hours and am probably a few minutes away from crashing, but cannoli sounds amazing right now for some reason.
Bronx-Man, that Winston joke got me, too. Thank you for that, lol.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
If we are actually going to scum hunt, my gut read at the moment is to focus on those individuals advocating for a mass claim.
Scum has the most to gain from it, after all. I will have to go back and reread.
Scum has the most to gain from it, after all. I will have to go back and reread.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Also where is Splinter? It's been far too long since he bussed me over something stupid.
I'm not petty at all.
I'm not petty at all.
I dunno what to think of the mass claim, to be honest. I'm actually kind of more interested in the reactions to it than the people asking for it.
I'm against mass claiming on Day 1 on principle because a lot of the good "Role Madness" games usually have mechanics that make it a bad idea. I think back to Of Gods and Men for example, where at least three townies (myself, Darryl, and LP), at least one scum, and one neutral all had reason not to claim on Day 1.
I prefer leaving the mass claim for later. Million or so roles means plenty of movement and actions, which are ample grounds for contradictions. Outing just the role names, hmm. What I can gather from the Overwash wiki, there is a connection between my character and my ability. Not 1:1, but I can see name claiming being useful for scum, if only to sort the kill priority list a bit. And yes, I was trolling with the Ordinary claim, gotta keep the running jokes going.
1:1 cop-scum trade is kk. Peeking... I haven't seen it in action but it sounds interesting. Has the same downside as mass claim: doing scum's work for them. But cop results are bad for scum and peeking would secure the results. I think I like it.
1:1 cop-scum trade is kk. Peeking... I haven't seen it in action but it sounds interesting. Has the same downside as mass claim: doing scum's work for them. But cop results are bad for scum and peeking would secure the results. I think I like it.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
What have you picked up on? I'm curious.
This post is kind of nonsense. You argue that scum know what they're up against because they can think about what powers each character has, but this is a 22 player role madness game, there's going to be a little bit of everything.
So knowing that "x might be a doctor role!" is worthless because they still don't know who x is, and they could have assumed a doctor was in without thinking about flavour. It only becomes useful if they know who has what character.
...which is exactly what you then suggest. Ok, we all have bad ideas sometimes, but you specify "name claim, not power claim", even though you just explained how they're basically the same thing?
No Burb, no it doesn't. Why did you say this?
Not much right now, to be honest. It's more just "What I'm keeping an eye on" rather than "Hey look, these are future scum tells!"
As far as the mass claim topic as a whole goes, there's a handful of people who would prefer to mass claim later on (Ouro, Melon, and now Kyan) and TheGoddamn's reasoning for wanting a mass claim didn't seem very strong. There was also Haly's comment about the scum being Talon and how a mass claim "would quickly pinpoint them.", which predated his uh.... "request" to mass claim. There's just kind of a weird sort of progression from one to the other, but I can kind of see it myself. Haly also weirdly jumped on the peeking strat pretty casually, which is interesting.
Of the three mentioned above, Ouro has specifically come out and said that he doesn't think a mass claim is needed until the end, if at all. I can't place my finger on it, but that comment sticks out to me.
Day 1 notes are always fun. A lot of them go nowhere tho. I'll read over more things in the morning, I've had an awkward day.
Burb has been more aggressive than usual, but this criticism came right after
this post, which was a completely fair observation. Xam's post felt like he was only posting because he felt obligated to, as if he was already worried about being called out for coasting.
Thats not totally alignment indicative (although obviously leans scum), but if Xam does indeed turn out to be scum then it's interesting that Ouro chose to deflect Burb's callout.
OK, so my questions last night were actually directed straight at Ynnek, because I've never played with him before and wanted to get some idea of his thoughts, but I can't really complain about others joining in.
Thoughts follows by a recap:
1) Haly [m]
3) Burbeting [m] - Engages with the questions, asks why I singled out Mazre.
6) AbsolutBro [m]
13) Ty4on [m] - Engages with the questions, probing others and thinks highly of Bear at this early stage. So far so Ty.
14) TheGoddamn [m]
17) nin1000 [m] - engages with questions, gives answers but no reasons.
18) StanleyPalmtree [m]
19) Verelios [m]
21) Ynnek7 [m] - Engages in questions, essentially says a decent group are new to him and are blind spots.
22) Barrylocke [m]
15) *Splinter [m] - Talks about himself in great detail. Thanks, nin.
8) Ouro [m] - Will offer opinions at some point in the future, I hate Mei. Offers thoughts on Zeke. Wants a character role call. Wants to find Mei to kill Mei.
9) EzekelRAGE [m] - Asks Bear to clarify his thoughts on Zeke being included in his group of dangerous coasters.
10) Bronx-Man [m] - Reacts to Bear's dangerous coasters statement.
16) Kyanrute [m] - Writes a novella. Uses italic.Instantly claims he's totally town this time. Kill him lol hilarz. Is cautious of Splinter and Zeke.
12) WhereAreMahDragonz [f] - Reacts to Kyan Kyaning.
11) Sophia [f] - Tentative start.
2) Xamtheking [m] - Makes some posts, nothing of worth.
20) melonrabbit [f] - Begins asking nin a question.
5) franconp [m] - Doesn't like Day 1 since there is little information to make an informed decision. Well there needs to be one though.
4) Mazre [m] - Hates Sorian and his role.
I'm really hoping Mei is someone Ouro hates. It's a double insult.
I'm just gonna dump this quote here for people discussing heroes being certain alignments. I don't remember Overwatch (I played it like twice for ten minutes) so I can't tell if my ability fits my role, but Sorian has said this:
Look I bolded it because it's important.
So let's drop all pretense about potential characters being aligned specifically, shall we?
He says it's not Bastard, so he wouldn't lie to us.
I'm disregarding most lore speculation because I know shit all about Overwatch and nothing you will do will make me read up on it, also Pokemon got consumed by this.
Outside of this, Ty putting Bear as a Town read this early is a bit odd. I see nothing out of character for Bear's play, but hardly indicative of a strong Town read. He's played Mafia for dog years, this shouldn't be a town tell.
Don't agree with Verelios so far on Ouro, and he's already been killed far too early in a game, y'all need to learn some damn lessons.
Peeking? Again? Kawlo would be so excited. I, however, am not.
I lost a lot of my happy bounce reading the last three pages of this thread.
Thoughts follows by a recap:
1) Haly [m]
3) Burbeting [m] - Engages with the questions, asks why I singled out Mazre.
6) AbsolutBro [m]
13) Ty4on [m] - Engages with the questions, probing others and thinks highly of Bear at this early stage. So far so Ty.
14) TheGoddamn [m]
17) nin1000 [m] - engages with questions, gives answers but no reasons.
18) StanleyPalmtree [m]
19) Verelios [m]
21) Ynnek7 [m] - Engages in questions, essentially says a decent group are new to him and are blind spots.
22) Barrylocke [m]
15) *Splinter [m] - Talks about himself in great detail. Thanks, nin.
8) Ouro [m] - Will offer opinions at some point in the future, I hate Mei. Offers thoughts on Zeke. Wants a character role call. Wants to find Mei to kill Mei.
9) EzekelRAGE [m] - Asks Bear to clarify his thoughts on Zeke being included in his group of dangerous coasters.
10) Bronx-Man [m] - Reacts to Bear's dangerous coasters statement.
16) Kyanrute [m] - Writes a novella. Uses italic.Instantly claims he's totally town this time. Kill him lol hilarz. Is cautious of Splinter and Zeke.
12) WhereAreMahDragonz [f] - Reacts to Kyan Kyaning.
11) Sophia [f] - Tentative start.
2) Xamtheking [m] - Makes some posts, nothing of worth.
20) melonrabbit [f] - Begins asking nin a question.
5) franconp [m] - Doesn't like Day 1 since there is little information to make an informed decision. Well there needs to be one though.
4) Mazre [m] - Hates Sorian and his role.
I'm really hoping Mei is someone Ouro hates. It's a double insult.
I'm just gonna dump this quote here for people discussing heroes being certain alignments. I don't remember Overwatch (I played it like twice for ten minutes) so I can't tell if my ability fits my role, but Sorian has said this:
Look I bolded it because it's important.
So let's drop all pretense about potential characters being aligned specifically, shall we?
He says it's not Bastard, so he wouldn't lie to us.
I'm disregarding most lore speculation because I know shit all about Overwatch and nothing you will do will make me read up on it, also Pokemon got consumed by this.
Outside of this, Ty putting Bear as a Town read this early is a bit odd. I see nothing out of character for Bear's play, but hardly indicative of a strong Town read. He's played Mafia for dog years, this shouldn't be a town tell.
Don't agree with Verelios so far on Ouro, and he's already been killed far too early in a game, y'all need to learn some damn lessons.
Peeking? Again? Kawlo would be so excited. I, however, am not.
I lost a lot of my happy bounce reading the last three pages of this thread.
I read Verelios going after Ouro as more town than scum currently, mostly because the 'You're scum for these bullshit reasons' tends to be a Town thing, when you've got much less to lose on your lynch (Important PRs not withstanding)
I'm keeping an eye out on those who aren't really investing in the game, in a Role Madness game, PRs should feel more emboldened to act like normal townies, because we're all fuckin' PRs.
Considering that, I'd throw these people in the mix for that reason:
Mazre
Barrylocke
AB
Early days and all. I'm throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks, like stink on cheese.
I'm keeping an eye out on those who aren't really investing in the game, in a Role Madness game, PRs should feel more emboldened to act like normal townies, because we're all fuckin' PRs.
Considering that, I'd throw these people in the mix for that reason:
Mazre
Barrylocke
AB
Early days and all. I'm throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks, like stink on cheese.
I don't disagree that it's a bad idea from this point of view but it's still more interesting than what we'd be doing otherwise. I don't like D1 either because all anyone has are the barest of the bare minimum of hunches and we might as well be shooting in the dark. I'd rather have concrete information to work with, is all.
Which is why I also support the peeking strategy. Really anything but this "so who do you think is scum", "I dunno, who do you think is scum!?", "dunno!!".
Oh and right after that Xam scumreads Ouro. I don't like this read though, the justification feels burrowed from other posters. Earlier Ouro was criticised for tweaking his statement about role/power, and Xam's statement "make a few mistakes" seems to allude to that but not really match what happened. Like Xam is just recycling talking points rather than actually thinking this.
I'm down for peeking. I'll probably do it like last game where I give potential actions for a whole bunch of roles.
Also I agree about Ouro, despite that possible deflecting he did for Xam.
I think Kyan claiming vanilla is nothing and it's weird that Burb (and now you?) take it seriously. Burb laments that "we'll never know if it was a mistake now that people have given him the excuse", but that feels like nonsense too. Even it had been a genuine mistake, it's the easiest excuse to make, we'd never get any further with that line of questioning. So Burb either didn't consider that or is feigning concern.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
Thanks for this. I missed the Haly bit so that helped.
I don't know about Ouro, really. He's playing very differently than the last time I played with him (Bar), but I can't assume that's indicative of his alignment. Kind of feels all over the place, but then again, this IS day one.
I'm really tired. I should probably go to bed.
So basically you'd like to watch the world burn, instead of playing the game of Mafia?
VOTE: Haly
Why?
Overreacting to Ouro's (insincere) role claim. Either fake concern or just getting into the spirit of the game. This one could be either with Xam, to be fair.
Just for D1. I'll play properly when there's more informing my decisions than a roll of the dice, or the alignment of the stars.
See the point here is more you're willing to completely disregard your D1 play, which is pretty annoying, because there's a lot to be read from D1 behaviour, be it reluctance to throw a vote down on someone who flips Town, someone who flip flops around and goes for the majority option despite having not much of an opinion of the target, or taking up the mantle of Town Leader and going all in on a tunnel lynch.
These are a few examples of plays that can be made in D1 that can help read someone's alignment better with some analysis.
You only leave it up to the alignment of the stars if you decide to do that.
These are a few examples of plays that can be made in D1 that can help read someone's alignment better with some analysis.
You only leave it up to the alignment of the stars if you decide to do that.
Pretty much a worst case scenario then?
FWIW peeking worked ok in mini Mafia 2. I (scum) ruled out a few people with "obviously fake" peeks, this group included the real cop.
There are risks to this strategy, but there are risks to any strategy, and this does at least rule out the worst case scenario (cop dying without giving any results).
I'll be peeking, and contrary to popular belief peeking doesn't require everyone (or even a majority) to be on board. Scum don't know if the real cop is one of the peekers or is relying on more traditional Breadcrumbs.
You can also peek actions/results for any role(s), not just cop.
No cops makes the peeking strategy harmless and sends scum on a wild goose chase. Hardly seems like a reason not to do it.
It's a weird thing to vote for anyway. You don't like melon's idea, fine, but why does suggesting it make you think she's scum?
He's right, tho
Very few of these analyses work. People throw out words for the sake of throwing out words so there's, maybe, something to work with in the future, not because they're really ever sure of hitting scum. There are a few GAFia players who I know from experience are capable of pinpointing a scum day 1, but none of them are here, unfortunately.
And I'm not one them in any case.