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Overwatch |OT10| That'll do pig, that'll do

V

Veelk

Banned
jviggy43 said:
Additionally, hook vs scatter arrow is a pretty terrible comparison. There's little you can do against rng and there are plenty of videos of characters not even in a fire fight getting one shot by a stray arrow (rapida just had a video showing an Anna getting iced from like 50 meters away from the initial arrow). Hog didn't have any range that resembled that type of ability and additionally he actually had to hit you for his hook to go through (And then shoot and likely melee for the kill). It was designed to punish bad positioning and it worked as such. Even if you jump up when hanzo scatter arrows you, you could still die. It's a bullshit rng mechanic that shouldn't exist and is much more bs than anything hog ever had because hog had to actually hit you with his shots to kill you quickly. Hanzo needs to just shoot an arrow in your general vecenity.

I'm genuinely shocked people are making this comparison here tbh.
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Yeah, but....I mean, you do realize this has a very, very small chance of happening. Beyond the first ricochet, maybe the second, the scattered shots go all over the place and being out in the open is astronomically unlikely to hit you. And even if it does, since it's the one scatter shot, you're not gonna die from it unless you were an inch away from death anyway. It's possible, but just way too unlikely to be merit categorizing as a problem, especially since the game is designed around a lot of random mechanics. Like, Ana lobbing a grenade from spawn at the objective in vague hopes of hitting someone and having it actually coincidentally happen.

Anyway, jumping isn't an efficient counter to scatter arrow for me. I mean, you can do it, but that's not RNG, it's whether the enemy player predicted that you'd jump and aimed at a different position accordingly. But whats worked for is baiting it. Dash around as tracer, icicle as mei, use genji's air manuverability, etc. And while it's not exactly 'hard' to scatter arrow people, it's really not just a free kill you can get anytime. Again, if it were, it wouldn't matter how his projectiles aren't reliable otherwise, Pro's would be exploiting the fuck out of it for entry kills.

I see no problem with it whatsoever. I can understand the people that don't find it fun, but that is where the hook comparison comes in. It can be predicted, outplayed, and it's effectiveness is massively overstated. As such, it's not a problem with the game, just the audience's acceptance of it.
 
B

Blues1990

Member
Veelk said:
Overwatch needs it's own "I feel a disturbance in the force" meme.
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This?

BeneficialGrandLoathsome.gif
 
J

jviggy43

Member
Veelk said:
Yeah, but....I mean, you do realize this has a very, very small chance of happening. Beyond the first ricochet, maybe the second, the scattered shots go all over the place and being out in the open is astronomically unlikely to hit you. And even if it does, since it's the one scatter shot, you're not gonna die from it unless you were an inch away from death anyway. It's possible, but just way too unlikely to be merit categorizing as a problem, especially since the game is designed around a lot of random mechanics. Like, Ana lobbing a grenade from spawn at the objective in vague hopes of hitting someone and having it actually coincidentally happen.

Anyway, jumping isn't an efficient counter to scatter arrow for me. I mean, you can do it, but that's not RNG, it's whether the enemy player predicted that you'd jump and aimed at a different position accordingly. But whats worked for is baiting it. Dash around as tracer, icicle as mei, use genji's air manuverability, etc. And while it's not exactly 'hard' to scatter arrow people, it's really not just a free kill you can get anytime. Again, if it were, it wouldn't matter how his projectiles aren't reliable otherwise, Pro's would be exploiting the fuck out of it for entry kills.

I see no problem with it whatsoever. I can understand the people that don't find it fun, but that is where the hook comparison comes in. It can be predicted, outplayed, and it's effectiveness is massively overstated. As such, it's not a problem with the game, just the audience's acceptance of it.
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It really isn't. So long as you hit the ground in front of a group of people youre essentially guaranteed a kill (and a one shot kill that didn't even have to hit you at that). Ana also throwing up a grenade and hitting someone from spawn is random but again, still requires you to be hit with it, unlike scatter.

And pros do abuse scatter arrow. They do it all the time because its basically a one hit kill all the time. They just don't stick to Hanzo on most maps because he doesn't add a lot to the synergy of most pro compositions. Which is why we can be critical of his scatter ability while also suggesting his utility as a character isn't very good relative to other heroes. There isn't another ability in this game that has an rng to one shot you from an ability that doesn't even require a direct hit (excluding ults).

Scatter cannot be predicted in the same way hook could I'm sorry thats just wrong. Hog had a limited range and his entire tool set was based around the hook. Hog couldn't get up onto high places or easily flank your team the way Hanzo's mobility alllows him to. Only bad to low level Hanzos base their play around scatter. Removing hook killed hog. Removing scatter would still leave you with a character who functions much in the same way he does now but the skill ceiling for his play would be raised (as it should for precision based one shot characters, especially in OW). No other ability has the random factor tied to a one shot besides scatter and its stupid that in a game thats one of the foremost competitive shooters right now we have such an ability.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
jviggy43 said:
It really isn't. So long as you hit the ground in front of a group of people youre essentially guaranteed a kill (and a one shot kill that didn't even have to hit you at that). Ana also throwing up a grenade and hitting someone from spawn is random but again, still requires you to be hit with it, unlike scatter.
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What does that mean? I have never been killed by a scatter arrow that didn't hit me. That doesn't even make sense. And I've both shot and been shot by plenty of scatter arrows that failed to kill even one. I'm not saying it's a super hard skill or anything, but people miss.

And pros do abuse scatter arrow. They do it all the time because its basically a one hit kill all the time. They just don't stick to Hanzo on most maps because he doesn't add a lot to the synergy of most pro compositions. Which is why we can be critical of his scatter ability while also suggesting his utility as a character isn't very good relative to other heroes. There isn't another ability in this game that has an rng to one shot you from an ability that doesn't even require a direct hit (excluding ults).
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I've watched a fair amount of matches, and he rarely appears except to shoot a sonic to check where the enemy is. I recall seeing him actually used in one match and that's it (and that one, the player stayed on him for a while after capturing the first point).

Scatter cannot be predicted in the same way hook could I'm sorry thats just wrong. Hog had a limited range and his entire tool set was based around the hook. Hog couldn't get up onto high places or easily flank your team the way Hanzo's mobility alllows him to. Only bad to low level Hanzos base their play around scatter. Removing hook killed hog. Removing scatter would still leave you with a character who functions much in the same way he does now but the skill ceiling for his play would be raised (as it should for precision based one shot characters, especially in OW). No other ability has the random factor tied to a one shot besides scatter and its stupid that in a game thats one of the foremost competitive shooters right now we have such an ability.
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Sorry, but this hasn't been my experience. I'm on console, so I don't know if that makes Scatter easier or harder to dodge, but it's an ability I can play around using hte same methodology I used against Hog: Locate, bait if necessary, kill. The distinctions you raise about distance and his maneuverability don't really mean anything to me, since they haven't stopped me from executing that strategy more often than not. Which isn't to say I don't get killed by it plenty. I get killed by everything plenty across games. But my reaction to these things isn't "Bullshit!", it's "Oh, they have X, I guess I better watch out for Y". Hanzo can climb while Roadhog can't? "Okay, so I check the high ground rather than corridors out of my line of sight". Hanzo can fire from a greater range than Hog? "Sweet, I just need some cover and he can't do shit to me." My exact movements change, but the methodology is the same and it works for me.

Maybe there should be a greater indicator that he's about to use it, like you see 4 lines flash on Hanzo if he switches to it, but other than that, yeah, it's just a different flavor of hook for me. It can be annoying, but it's easily manageable.
 
C

Carl-Sagan

Member
Saucycarpdog said:
I doing the summer games is today. Usually something is leaked at this point. That happened with every other event.
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There were some leaks. The achievements on the consoles and the data mine. 99% sure the event won't be today. The vague tweet by the Overwatch Twitter gave it away.
 
J

jviggy43

Member
Veelk said:
What does that mean? I have never been killed by a scatter arrow that didn't hit me. That doesn't even make sense. And I've both shot and been shot by plenty of scatter arrows that failed to kill even one. I'm not saying it's a super hard skill or anything, but people miss.



I've watched a fair amount of matches, and he rarely appears except to shoot a sonic to check where the enemy is. I recall seeing him actually used in one match and that's it (and that one, the player stayed on him for a while after capturing the first point).



Sorry, but this hasn't been my experience. I'm on console, so I don't know if that makes Scatter easier or harder to dodge, but it's an ability I can play around using hte same methodology I used against Hog: Locate, bait if necessary, kill. The distinctions you raise about distance and his maneuverability don't really mean anything to me, since they haven't stopped me from executing that strategy more often than not. Which isn't to say I don't get killed by it plenty. I get killed by everything plenty across games. But my reaction to these things isn't "Bullshit!", it's "Oh, they have X, I guess I better watch out for Y". Hanzo can climb while Roadhog can't? "Okay, so I check the high ground rather than corridors out of my line of sight". Hanzo can fire from a greater range than Hog? "Sweet, I just need some cover and he can't do shit to me." My exact movements change, but the methodology is the same and it works for me.

Maybe there should be a greater indicator that he's about to use it, like you see 4 lines flash on Hanzo if he switches to it, but other than that, yeah, it's just a different flavor of hook for me. It can be annoying, but it's easily manageable.
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If you haven't been killed by a scatter that hasn't hit you Idk what to tell you. It's a well known fact that hitting the space in front of a character one shots squishy characters. There's a pretty established hit box for it to work which is why most scatters are aimed at people's feet and not directly at a character (Which is why most people dislike it). People miss that space sure, but the fact that it can kill you without actually hitting you is pretty bs.

Idk when you started watching pro play but it used to be used pretty frequently on Kings row offense double sniping with widow and hanzo on the first point. Right now if you're watching you won't see it as much because the current meta is dive with Winston and hanzos are easy picking for fast characters who jump on them.


You can get killed by scatter without being in his line of sight. That's not something that you can actively look out for. What characters do you play and what level are you? That might help establish why you aren't having these problems.

I just think if they were to do anything about scatter, they should change it from a 1 hit to an ability that takes you down to 10 hp or something. That way you still have a powerful ability but one that doesn't instantly kill you and requires a finishing blow by an actual shot to do the job. Whether or not that's possible without reworking the whole ability is beyond me but I've said from day one that scatter is the only ability I truly would call bullshit in this game. The only one.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
jviggy43 said:
If you haven't been killed by a scatter that hasn't hit you Idk what to tell you. It's a well known fact that hitting the space in front of a character one shots squishy characters. There's a pretty established hit box for it to work which is why most scatters are aimed at people's feet and not directly at a character (Which is why most people dislike it). People miss that space sure, but the fact that it can kill you without actually hitting you is pretty bs.
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That....is the scatter arrow hitting you. Like, not the actual arrow part, the shards, but that's the attack actually hitting me. Why would you even do that? When Scatter Arrow hits you, that means the shards move away from you, so you want all the shards to go in the same direction, so you hit the ground, but that's just the correct use of it. Even if you turned down the damage so it's not a 1 shot, that'd still be the most effective way of using it.

Idk when you started watching pro play but it used to be used pretty frequently on Kings row offense double sniping with widow and hanzo on the first point. Right now if you're watching you won't see it as much because the current meta is dive with Winston and hanzos are easy picking for fast characters who jump on them.
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Not too long since the game came out, but I probably watched way more recently than before. But even before Winston became mandatory, no, I didn't see him often at all.

You can get killed by scatter without being in his line of sight. That's not something that you can actively look out for. What characters do you play and what level are you? That might help establish why you aren't having these problems.

I just think if they were to do anything about scatter, they should change it from a 1 hit to an ability that takes you down to 10 hp or something. That way you still have a powerful ability but one that doesn't instantly kill you and requires a finishing blow by an actual shot to do the job. Whether or not that's possible without reworking the whole ability is beyond me but I've said from day one that scatter is the only ability I truly would call bullshit in this game. The only one.
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Platinum and D.Va and Tracer mainly, occasionally Mercy and a smattering of other heroes. But I just straight up do not see Hanzo this season aside from the occasional game. But that's also been true of most of the seasons. Hanzo's just not a super popular character in comp. The most troublesome Hanzo I've ever played was clearly using a m/kb and I still managed to give him a hell of a fight as Tracer. I even managed to dodge his scatter shots by dashing when I jump, ensuring it won't hit me.

If you know Hanzo is on the field, if you've seen his last known location, then you should understand that that an arrow could hit you and react accordingly. The only time you genuinely cannot predict him around a corner is if he's used his sonar arrow and he is ready to hit you as you come around, usually at the start of the match where you don't know any of the team comp. But that's him using two abilities in a specific situation, it's no big deal. The second time I come around, I know Hanzo is on the team, so I stay behind my Rein's shield or just dash through if I know he won't be able to predict, or something.

That's all you really need. Knowledge that there IS a Hanzo makes you watch out for his scatter, and that alone will half your deaths to it.

I think I've called most abilities in this game bullshit out of frustration at one time or another. Tracer's recall, Mei's invulnerable icicle, Genji's dash reset, Junkrat's grenades (for being literally a weapon literally designed to fling random bombs in hopes it gets someone), Zarya's bubbles, Soldier's heal station, and so on. Each of them aren't, they just need to be played around.
 
D

dryuriev7777

Member
I maintain that it doesn't really matter to me if he's not meta, if in the grand scheme of things he's not overpowered, if it's always entirely my fault he kills me, and/or if I end up countering and winning against him more times than not; I cannot stand Hanzo and nothing frustrates me or kills my fun and interest in playing this game more than him.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
dryuriev7777 said:
I maintain that it doesn't really matter to me if he's not meta, if in the grand scheme of things he's not overpowered, if it's always entirely my fault he kills me, and/or if I end up countering and winning against him more times than not; I cannot stand Hanzo and nothing frustrates me or kills my fun and interest in playing this game more than him.
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Yup. And that's cool.

I've cycled between almost all the heroes in thinking "Even if they're not OP, they FEEL like it's bullshit". Tracer, Mei, Junkrat, etc. It's just a part of the game. Some heroes will not resonate at all times.

The only one I think that I've disliked from the start and stayed opposed to is Soldier 76. But I used to dislike him because he just felt a boring ordinary dude in a world full of colorful, outrageous characters. Now I see him as too powerful. His damage is too significant and consistent and he has healing and an infinite sprint that lets him return to the fight faster than literally any other character and a helix rocket and a powerful ult and it all combines into this fucking asshole of a character. He doesn't do anything in particular the absolute best, but he does it above average enough that he's a safer pick than any other dps and THAT feels very frustrating to face. Maybe one day I'll feel intrigued by him enough to play him, but he's the only long runner in the "fuck this character". Every one else has faded with time.
 
R

randome

Member
Damn last night i got the suckiest randoms. I feel like the randoms I'm getting in mid to upper platinum just instalock whoever they want and never switch off.
 
J

jviggy43

Member
Veelk said:
That....is the scatter arrow hitting you. Like, not the actual arrow part, the shards, but that's the attack actually hitting me. Why would you even do that? When Scatter Arrow hits you, that means the shards move away from you, so you want all the shards to go in the same direction, so you hit the ground, but that's just the correct use of it. Even if you turned down the damage so it's not a 1 shot, that'd still be the most effective way of using it.



Not too long since the game came out, but I probably watched way more recently than before. But even before Winston became mandatory, no, I didn't see him often at all.


Platinum and D.Va and Tracer mainly, occasionally Mercy and a smattering of other heroes. But I just straight up do not see Hanzo this season aside from the occasional game. But that's also been true of most of the seasons. Hanzo's just not a super popular character in comp. The most troublesome Hanzo I've ever played was clearly using a m/kb and I still managed to give him a hell of a fight as Tracer. I even managed to dodge his scatter shots by dashing when I jump, ensuring it won't hit me.

If you know Hanzo is on the field, if you've seen his last known location, then you should understand that that an arrow could hit you and react accordingly. The only time you genuinely cannot predict him around a corner is if he's used his sonar arrow and he is ready to hit you as you come around, usually at the start of the match where you don't know any of the team comp. But that's him using two abilities in a specific situation, it's no big deal. The second time I come around, I know Hanzo is on the team, so I stay behind my Rein's shield or just dash through if I know he won't be able to predict, or something.

That's all you really need. Knowledge that there IS a Hanzo makes you watch out for his scatter, and that alone will half your deaths to it.

I think I've called most abilities in this game bullshit out of frustration at one time or another. Tracer's recall, Mei's invulnerable icicle, Genji's dash reset, Junkrat's grenades (for being literally a weapon literally designed to fling random bombs in hopes it gets someone), Zarya's bubbles, Soldier's heal station, and so on. Each of them aren't, they just need to be played around.
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It's not the scatter arrow hitting you it's the collateral effect of the original shot. I don't have a problem with it functioning that way I take issue with the Insta kill ability of the secondary effects of the original shot. He'll if the original shot one shot me I'd be 100% ok with it. If even be ok if it didn't and it killed me while in a small room (used to flush people out of hiding). I'm not suggesting they change how it functions om.suggesting they change the damage of the collateral effects of the shot. You shouldn't be rewarded in this game for not hitting your targets, or in any first person shooter for that matter. It's absolutely antithetical to the function of fps games.

And I assure you pros brought out attack hanzo on certain maps and points (obviously not for much because as a CHARACTER he isn't that viable at high level play) and they were quite efficient with scatter. The thing being that other heroes offer more viability with dps output than what scatter or his normal shots offer (theres a lot more room.for error with his regular shots than picking tracer or someone) which is why you don't see him in abundance. That doesn't mean because the characters viability is lower that scatter isn't ridiculous however. Both assessments can coexist.

You wouldn't see this as a problem if you're playing a lot of diva. Tracer as well since she's a flanking character and hanzo is fucked if you flank and he can't get a scatter off close range. Additionally, hanzo requires consistent accuracy with his normal shots to make him super viable. You're not going to see that at plat which is why you won't see him being picked a lot. Additionally hanzo has a pretty big negative stigma to him that instantly triggers teams to complain when he's picked. Pick rate doesn't equate to scatter not being an unfair ability.

And yes you can dodge his scatter but that's not really a defense of it because you can say that about any ability. The question should be if the ability is functioning as it should and it hits, is it balanced with the rest of the game. And if argued comparatively to everything else it isn't. When I say you can avoid hog by being out of range I mean you literally cannot be touched by hog by staying out of range. With scatter you don't even have to be in his line of sight for it to one shot you with an initial shot that doesn't even hit you. Again, I'm ok with an ability that functions in that capacity however when no other ability one shots you without needing a direct hit except from a character whose whole role is predicated around making extremely accurate shots, you're rewarding the wrong playstyles.

Knowledge of hanzo doesn't mean you avoid scatter. He can get his shots over reins shield and over positions where his line of sight should keep you safe. It happens to me literally all the time. Jumping helps when you know it's coming but that's not even a guaranteed safeguard from it either.

And I don't call those abilities bullshit because those abilities aren't bullshit. I call scatter arrow bullshit because it's the only ability in this game that's bullshit. Literally have never thought the majority of abilities or metas have been as unfair as a scatter arrow taking a character from full life to nothing based on a non direct rng shot. Rng doesn't belong in this game, they should change it. It wouldn't affect the character nearly as much as hog losing hook because hanzo should be a character whose rewarded for accurate shooting, not "hit the general.vecenity, good enough".

Also sorry if I missed something or there are typos I'm in my phone and having a detailed discussion like this is quite difficult haha
 
J

jviggy43

Member
I'd imagine the update will go up Thursday since that will be the one week period for Doomfist which allows him into comp , if I were to guess.
 
N

Nuno Pinto

Member
Summer games hype

I can understand that they wanted to give doomfist some more days in the spotlight, hoping for tuesday next week.

Owzers said:
Ugh teasers without release dates. Whatever, if I play overwatch tonight I'm going Reaper.
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Amateur hour again? Owzers pls

Embrace mystery heroes, let the game dictate your path.
 
N

Nuno Pinto

Member
Developer Update | The Games Are Back!

About summer games.

- you can unlock the itens from last event with credits /// prices are discounted to regular cost levels for the past year itens (legendaries 1000, epic 250, etc)
- junkrat getting a legendary
-mercy getting a new skin, Jeff likes it a lot
- widowmaker and mccree getting something too
- lucioball coming back, Rio map is back and a new map in Sydney /// some changes on how the game works
- competitive lucioball during 3 weeks o_o
- Starts August 8
 
R

rulerk1

Member
Played my first round of MH in i dont know how long. Got attack sym/torb every turn it seems against a team that never lost a healer. Next round was 2 Syms, Torb, Sombra, and Lucio so we full held. I almost had fun since there is no NL mode anymore. Please add it :(
 
A

AngryMoth

Member
I'm really not enjoying the buff to Zarya's grav. it was already one of the most powerful cults in the game, such an unnecessary change
 
G

Gorillaz

Member
Comp Lucio Ball with 10 placements and a Top 500

Stylosa could barely keep it in his pants over Doomfist can't imagine this

The best zarya skin in the game is finally available again tho so that's great
 
Sygma

Sygma

Member
Jellie said:
Your own Lucio speed boosting?
Also hog straight up is trash right now.
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Indeed he is, but before it was really infuriating to get punished because you just wanted to engage. DF is not as punishing as Road is by any stretch
 
B

Blues1990

Member
Nuno Pinto said:
Developer Update | The Games Are Back!

About summer games.

- you can unlock the itens from last event with credits /// prices are discounted to regular cost levels for the past year itens (legendaries 1000, epic 250, etc)
- junkrat getting a legendary
-mercy getting a new skin, Jeff likes it a lot
- widowmaker and mccree getting something too
- lucioball coming back, Rio map is back and a new map in Sydney /// some changes on how the game works
- competitive lucioball during 3 weeks o_o
- Starts August 8
Click to expand...

I'm down to join you guys for some competitive Lucio Ball. Hook me up for the team invite, as this sounds really cool.

Also, I'm expecting these two to be Mercy and Junkrat's Legendary Skins:

Spray_Junkrat_Tennis.png


Spray_Mercy_Badminton.png
 
C

Chance

Member
Blues1990 said:
I'm down to join you guys for some competitive Lucio Ball. Hook me up for the team invite, as this sounds really cool.

Also, I'm expecting these two to be Mercy and Junkrat's Legendary Skins:

Spray_Junkrat_Tennis.png


Spray_Mercy_Badminton.png
Click to expand...

If Mercy doesn't have a tennis skin I'm gonna' be mad sad. Wouldn't mind table tennis Mei either...
 
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