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[Chaplain]

Historians closer to his time? I can think of only one, Josephus, but his details do not line up at all with the gospels, but the gospels don't even line up themselves in so many ways. Christian scholars will not deny that Josephus writings are counterfeit, as it is known. There are no known accounts from historians of that era to suggest that Jesus existed, but yet, accounts for so much else.

This is not true, as this is one of my fields of study.

This is what the majority of scholarship have concluded about Jesus of Nazareth and his impact on those that followed him:

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
2. He was buried.
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important evidence).
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
7. The resurrection was the central message.
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
9. The Church was born and grew.
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

The list was made by Dr. Habermas. He is the go-to-guy that scholars go to for the historicity of Jesus' life and death. Some basic question and answers that Dr. Habermas deals with about Jesus: The Historical Jesus, Miracles, Death and Resurrection of Christ. Death of Jesus, Naturalistic Theories, Evidence for the Resurrection (click on Link for these articles). Article examples;

Question: Is it not true that we don't even know in what century Jesus lived? How come we only have a lot of references in the New Testament and no where else from that general time?

Answer: You will have to work pretty hard to find scholars who argue the thesis that Jesus never lived. Even most "liberals" dismiss these views as baseless. It has been refuted time and time again. Why? Because there are first century references to Jesus, several of which critical scholars date to within months to a couple of years after Jesus' death. I'm speaking here chiefly of the early creeds in the New Testament, like 1 Corinthians 15:3ff. Besides all of the New Testament writings, we have a few extra-biblical writings that date from the mid-first century to about 110 AD. Altogether, there are even about a dozen and a half non-Christian sources that mention Jesus within the first 150 years after his death. For all these sources plus a critique of views like those who question or deny Jesus' historical existence, see my book The Historical Jesus (College Press, 1996).

Question: Is it true that Josephus' statements about Jesus are in fact not his and were added later in history by those seeking to prove that Jesus was a historical figure?

Answer: The vast majority of scholars who address this issue think that although Josephus' longer statement about Jesus in Antiquities 18:3 has been altered a bit, the bulk of it was written by Josephus. This view means that Josephus supplies some very important material about Jesus. An even larger percentage of scholars accepts Josephus' second statement concerning Jesus being the brother of James (Antiquities 20:9). Further, we have to make sense of ancient non-Christian historians like Thallus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Lucian, who reported all sorts of facts about Jesus. In The Historical Jesus, pages 243-250, I provide a long list of well over 100 items that are reported about Jesus, many by non- Christians. So, to argue that Jesus never existed totally ignores a large body of historical data. That's why, of over a thousands recent publications on the subject of the historical Jesus, I am aware of less than five who doubt or question his existence.

A few academic articles about Jesus:

Resurrection Research from 1975 to the Present: What are Critical Scholars Saying?
The Minimal Facts Approach to the Resurrection of Jesus: The Role of Methodology as a Crucial Component in Establishing Historicity

If you do not want to read, here is a lecture from Dr. Habermas:

Gary Habermas on Resurrection Evidence from Critical Scholars

Prof Gary Habermas takes us through recent developments in historical scholarship (as of 2014).

 

[Snaku]

Grow up.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

...

I have a reason for making that mistake (goddamn autocorrect), they don't.

 

[Morokh]

Protest all you want, you have every right to do so, but death threats ? that's way beyond anything that is acceptable.

 

[Sidewinder]

Grow up.

http://i.imgur.com/BQy07CX.gif

 

[Messofanego]

My grandma votes for Jamaat-e-Islami lol, time to fight about this in our next family UK-Pakistan skype call.

Anyone know the names of these religious leader knobs who called for hangings?

 

[m_shortpants]

I imagine this has to do with an extreme lack of education. It's just so inconceivable to me that people can act this way, and I AM Muslim.

 

[Naked Snake]

I have a reason for making that mistake (goddamn autocorrect), they don't.

They do. It's not their language and they're poorly educated.

And now it's your fault I'm defending those fucktards.

 

[Ashes]

religion will always be a thing, you should wish that corruption wasnt a thing.

Just turn the other cheek. You get used to people nonchalantly calling for your non-existence.

 

[RM8]

religion will always be a thing, you should wish that corruption wasnt a thing.

Corruption will always be a thing, and I still wish it wouldn't.

 

[SmokyDave]

Just turn the other cheek. You get used to people nonchalantly calling for your non-existence.

Was 'calling for the non-existence of your beliefs' not dramatic enough?

 

[Ashes]

Was 'calling for the non-existence of your beliefs' not dramatic enough?

Well, get used to the idea that Islam isn't a cult.

 

[SmokyDave]

Well, get used to the idea that Islam isn't a cult.

I thought I told you that definition rang no bells with me. Especially given that the dictionary fucked up and described idolatry (or cult of personality, maybe?).

I do find your choice of wording in that prior post interesting though. It's the next logical step on from conflating the religion of islam with individual muslims, I guess.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I probably shouldn't laugh, but this picture is just too much.

it really is.

 

[HiredN00bs]

As much as i understand the motives of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonsits, they really are just fanning the flames

Sure youre entitled to freedom of speech, but at the expense of your own life? Your families life? Your colleagues lives?

Seems pretty silly. They groups they are pissing off arent the kind to just rally arnd protest

They can, will and have instigated brutal attacks

Fuck this way of thinking.

It is essentially victim blaming, while also suggesting the people advocating violence are somewhat reasonable, ergo, they won't do acts of terrorism if we give into their demands. Fuck their demands and whatever backwards dehumanizing philosophies their religious texts advocate.

 

[Siegcram]

Just turn the other cheek. You get used to people nonchalantly calling for your non-existence.

Are you entirely defined by your religion? That's pretty sad.

 

[-COOLIO-]

religion will always be a thing, you should wish that corruption wasnt a thing.

religion will probably be a "thing" for a long while but it will undoubtedly shrink in importance in the coming decades and adapt to keep up with civil modern culture.

 

[Ashes]

I thought I told you that definition rang no bells with me.

By choosing the one definition that could have any measure of leeway applied to it?
Though to be fair, I did give you the benefit of the doubt.

Edit:

I do find your choice of wording in that prior post interesting though. It's the next logical step on from conflating the religion of islam with individual muslims, I guess.

No, it's different enough. I just don't like sweeping anti-religion generalisations. It wasn't like I was meeting his dramatical extent measure for measure or anything.

 

[Fenderputty]

Just turn the other cheek. You get used to people nonchalantly calling for your non-existence.

Wishing that religion didn't exist is not the same as wishing the people who follow the religion didn't exist.

 

[Ashes]

Wishing that religion didn't exist is not the same as wishing the people who follow the religion didn't exist.

Sure, if you want to divorce reality from the situation.

 

[Fenderputty]

Sure, if you want to divorce reality from the situation.

What's the reality? Because you are not your religion.

 

[commedieu]

I probably shouldn't laugh, but this picture is just too much.

Its pretty damned straight forward. And a nice presentation of their hateful message.

 

[Ashes]

What's the reality? Because you are not your religion.

Tell that to all the people blaming Islam for what some Muslims this decade and last are doing.

 

[Coolwhip]

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh.

 

[adamsapple]

-be me
-be pakistani
-enter thread
-see posts

 

[Henkka]

Just turn the other cheek. You get used to people nonchalantly calling for your non-existence.

I didn't call for your non-existence, dude. Maybe what I posted was over the top, but it was just my gut reaction to seeing that banner. Why I said I wish religion wasn't a thing is because I don't know how I could ever persuade one of those people that what they're doing is wrong. Normally I would say, well, those cartoons aren't really hurting anyone, if you don't like it you don't have to look at it, the freedom of expression is important for everyone, etc... But when their reasoning is religious, I don't know what to say. To them it's sacred or holy or divinely mandated, and I have nothing to counter that with. There's no common ground that I can appeal to. That makes me feel depressed. I suppose you could say my beef is with all forms of fundamentalism, not just religion. That's true, but religion comes with supernatural beliefs that are impossible to demonstrate to be false.

I also don't think you're defined by your religion, no one is.

 

[Siegcram]

Tell that to all the people blaming Islam for what some Muslims this decade and last are doing.

Yeah, that's not what the post you're replying to was about. Cool it on the persecution complex.

 

[ahoyhoy]

I'm impressed they are using the correct tense of hanged instead of hung. Kudos.

After all, the sketch artist is not a tapestry

 

[Nesotenso]

Guys, you don't get it, these pakistanis aren't real muslims.

Islam is the religion of peace.

always gotta be one.

Spain still under the threat of takeover?

 

[-COOLIO-]

Wishing that religion didn't exist is not the same as wishing the people who follow the religion didn't exist.

how do you figure?

i mean, isn't it possible for someone who once practised a religion to stop practising it?

edit: whoops, read it wrong! didnt parse the "is not the same".

 

[Ferrio]

Oh ya the MBCPWAT.

Man the name is so ridiculous.

 

[Whom_Gods_Annoy]

As much as i understand the motives of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonsits, they really are just fanning the flames

Sure youre entitled to freedom of speech, but at the expense of your own life? Your families life? Your colleagues lives?

Seems pretty silly. They groups they are pissing off arent the kind to just rally arnd protest

They can, will and have instigated brutal attacks

If there is one thing I have learned from these situations its that blaming the victim doesn't usually end well.

 

[commedieu]

If there is one thing I have learned from these situations its that blaming the victim doesn't usually end well.

thats what I love about the only criticism over this whole issue.

Its people victim blaming cartoonists for their inability to not want to hang them. And if they are hanged, they should share the blame of causing someone to hang them.

She shouldn't have driven a car, if she didn't want to get gang raped and beaten, you know..?

 

[Fenderputty]

Tell that to all the people blaming Islam for what some Muslims this decade and last are doing.

I don't agree with the over generalizing. Mostly these threads make me sad. I feel for the Muslim community who's had to deal with constant attacks since 9/11. It must be tiring defending your entire belief structure any time a nutcase acts out.

I'm secular though and can't stand religion in general. I'll shit on these Muslims and Islam here, and then shit on the Jews in Israel for the carbon copy Warsaw ghetto they've crafted in Palestine. Then I'll shit on Christians and Christianity for the current fear mongering bigoted speech they spout in the states.

I think most of the people in here are probably like me. When they criticise religion they aren't criticizing the believer. Though I do notice when a Jesus flag supporter takes their time to stop in here for their quick pot shot.

 

[block tower]

Bill Maher is only getting vindicated at this point.

 

[Ashes]

I didn't call for your non-existence, dude. Maybe what I posted was over the top, but it was just my gut reaction to seeing that banner. Why I said I wish religion wasn't a thing is because I don't know how I could ever persuade one of those people that what they're doing is wrong. Normally I would say, well, those cartoons aren't really hurting anyone, if you don't like it you don't have to look at it, the freedom of expression is important for everyone, etc... But when their reasoning is religious, I don't know what to say. To them it's sacred or holy or divinely mandated, and I have nothing to counter that with. There's no common ground that I can appeal to. That makes me feel depressed. I suppose you could say my beef is with all forms of fundamentalism, not just religion. That's true, but religion comes with supernatural beliefs that are impossible to demonstrate to be false.

I also don't think you're defined by your religion, no one is.

Well I suppose even if I disagree with your conclusions, this is better than drive by posts.

 

[wildfire]

I wonder if they protested when a schoolful of people got killed in their own country? Probably not....

You know the Pakistani government just fast tracked the death sentence of members of the same terrorists. Their sense of justice was served genius.

 

[Frodo]

Worst act of terrorism? Really?

Hanging is all right, though.

 

[RoadHazard]

"Must be hanged", smh.


As I always say: Grow up and join the modern world, or just fuck off. Nobody's forcing you to look at the cartoons you find so offensive. Why do you care what non-Muslims do? Unless you actually want the entire world to become Muslim and you are prepared to make that happen by force. In which case you can fuck off even harder. Medieval assholes.

 

[Ashes]

I don't agree with the over generalizing. Mostly these threads make me sad. I feel for the Muslim community who's had to deal with constant attacks since 9/11. It must be tiring defending your entire belief structure any time a nutcase acts out.

I'm secular though and can't stand religion in general. I'll shit on these Muslims and Islam here, and then shit on the Jews in Israel for the carbon copy Warsaw ghetto they've crafted in Palestine. Then I'll shit on Christians and Christianity for the current fear mongering bigoted speech they spout in the states.

I think most of the people in here are probably like me. When they criticise religion they aren't criticizing the believer. Though I do notice when a Jesus flag supporter takes their time to stop in here for their quick pot shot.

Well don't let me stop you on your anti-religion crusade. You're no more better an arguer* because you seemingly shit on everyone. It just means you're not discriminatory about it.

edit: on reflection, maybe it does make you slightly more ethical.

 

[BioHazard]

Can someone please photoshop those men with their hands in the air and holding the sign at a concert or something?

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

I think even if these protests are a small minority, Pakistan does indeed have a problem with religious extremism. The country needs to find ways to make the populace be less religious.

 

[Fenderputty]

Well don't let me stop you on your anti-religion crusade. You're no more better an arguer* because you seemingly shit on everyone. It just means you're not discriminatory about it.

edit: on reflection, maybe it does make you slightly more ethical.

Comments like these make it harder for me to feel bad for your while you defend your flag.

 

[TTUVAPOR]

I downloaded the English translated version of the Quran on Google Play (it's free), and went to the chapter on women...I can't believe it says men shall have one, two, three, four or as many wives as they want.

Then this whole thing on distribution of properties and wealth between relatives and shit...wtf....? Someone has created a big time farce with this religion. Screams cult.

 

[omg_mjd]

I probably shouldn't laugh, but this picture is just too much.

Who needs caricatures--excuse me, blasphemy cartoons--when you got this.

 

[-COOLIO-]

"Must be hanged", smh.


As I always say: Grow up and join the modern world, or just fuck off. Nobody's forcing you to look at the cartoons you find so offensive. Why do you care what non-Muslims do? Unless you actually want the entire world to become Muslim and you are prepared to make that happen by force. In which case you can fuck off even harder. Medieval assholes.

while i agree that drawings of the prophet shouldn't be off limits, you have to be careful with this kind of logic. imagine the drawing was something racist instead, and you told black/white/asian people or whoever it targeted to just not look at it.

 

[Jag]

-be me
-be pakistani
-enter thread
-see posts

You aren't responsible for these protesting asshats, just like American's aren't responsible for the Westboro church assholes. Extremists do not define a nation or religion.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I think even if these protests are a small minority, Pakistan does indeed have a problem with religious extremism. The country needs to find ways to make the populace be less religious.

education!

 

[Red Blaster]

what a bunch of crazies

maybe obama will humanely drone strike them

 

[Heshinsi]

the problem is the Islam had no Age of Enlightenment, no reformation and no real cultural revolution, their religion and their behavior towards it is like from 300 years ago.

edit: before anyone thinks I want to say every muslim thinks this way, no I am not, it is just a root of evil why so many in these countries follow these old rules.

I think that's totally unfair to earlier Muslims. The behaviour of these idiots isn't something that's a holdover from previous times; it's almost completely different from how early Islamic culture was. Hell the Muslim world in the 60's was radically different than what it is today. These barbarians would have stuck out like a sore thumb if magically transported to some place like old Baghdad of the early Islamic age.