• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Paris Terrorist Attacks, 120+ dead. Do not post hearsay/unsourced/old news.

Status
Not open for further replies.
These are some of the badasses that delivered 5,000 bullets to Abaaoud for breakfast yesterday:

j55nHld.jpg


l6JkT5O.jpg


qWNHYX3.jpg

I wanna play cs now
 

Dai Kaiju

Member
Guys, pray for them. Seriously, even if you don't believe in God pray to the Force if you have to. Prayer works. It will be scientifically proven within our lifetime.
 
Guys, pray for them. Seriously, even if you don't believe in God pray to the Force if you have to. Prayer works. It will be scientifically proven within our lifetime.

Pray to the Force?

Star Wars viral marketing?

Wow blocking social media is an absolutely terrible idea. They should keep it and monitor it, but block? What the hell? Wasn't it used by victims of the Bataclan attack to warn authorities/people in general? Asking for police intervention? How is that something bad?

You can't really tell if those intel are reliable, I don't think the police used them to know when to intervene.
 
Wow blocking social media is an absolutely terrible idea. They should keep it and monitor it, but block? What the hell? Wasn't it used by victims of the Bataclan attack to warn authorities/people in general? Asking for police intervention? How is that something bad?
 

chadskin

Member
Also, regarding this:

They're talking about websites/social media that encourage or make apologist arguments for terrorism
source

What's an "apologist argument", what's "terrorism"? That's exactly the kind of broad phrasing that can be easily abused by the government to block unwanted anti-government websites (read: censorship).

Now, Hollande can only have the best intentions in mind (and I'm sure he has) but eventually, someone will succeed him and he / she may have less than good intentions and could abuse the law to his / her own advantage. It's a slippery slope and France needs to be careful to not give up what it stands for in the wake of the attack.
 

indosmoke

Member
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/667329227461644288

AFP: French MPs vote to allow government to block websites, social media under state of emergency

AFP is being way too vague...

Le gouvernement pourra, dans le cadre de l'état d'urgence, bloquer des sites internet et réseaux sociaux faisant l'apologie du terrorisme ou incitant à des actes terroristes, a voté jeudi l'Assemblée nationale.

Roughly translated: during a state of emergency, the government could take down websites praising terrorism or promoting terrorist actions.
They do mention social networks, but I assume it's about closing relevant facebook/twitter accounts.

http://www.publicsenat.fr/lcp/polit...-des-sites-internet-reseaux-sociaux-vote-lass

edit: very beaten.
 

marrec

Banned
Wow blocking social media is an absolutely terrible idea. They should keep it and monitor it, but block? What the hell? Wasn't it used by victims of the Bataclan attack to warn authorities/people in general? Asking for police intervention? How is that something bad?

It was also used quite a bit to let people know that their loved ones were safe.

Really terrible idea tbh.
 
French PM Manuel Valls has warned that France could face chemical or biological attack from terror groups, as deputies voted to extend the state of emergency after the attacks.
If it is somehow true, where the hell did they get their hands on those weapon?
 

lenos16

Member
If it is somehow true, where the hell did they get their hands on those weapon?

There are some lying around in Syria and Iraq I think. Hard to keep track of those WMDs when the country has gone to shit. I'm not sure why they think that biological weapons are available to the terrorists though, this requires a lab.
 

sflufan

Banned
If it is somehow true, where the hell did they get their hands on those weapon?

A crude chemical weapon isn't that difficult to manufacture. However, if it is something more sophisticated, then ISIL could have obtained it from Syrian military stockpiles that it captured.

I mean, there is ample evidence that ISIL has used mustard gas against Kurdish forces in Syria.
 

Corto

Member
If it is somehow true, where the hell did they get their hands on those weapon?

Syria army had the largest stockpiles of chemical weapons and used them in the Syria Civil War against their own citizens. There should be plenty of those "lost" around that area to whoever pays the most.
 
huh... would have expected to see GIGN.
badass nonetheless

I'm sure they were involved too; however GIGN are part of the "Gendarmerie" rather than the "Police", and these pictures were posted by the Police facebook page so it's probably not comprehensive.
 

Alx

Member
huh... would have expected to see GIGN.
badass nonetheless

GIGN is mostly for open areas, airports etc, RAID and BRI are for urban situations. But all badasses indeed. :)

Funny how the psychologue is just chilling around with blue jeans...
 

Osahi

Member
Wow, disgusting. They didn't waste anytime fucking over their citizens and stripping rights.

Classic case of "To protect your Freedom, we have to take away your freedom"-bullshit.

Every. Fucking. Time.

And this is how those terrorist fucks win. I'm a perfectly aware you have to give government forces some liberties to ensure security and making research possible, but every time a tragedy happens politicians fall over each other to make laws that bring us on a very slippery slope...
 

Alx

Member
Classic case of "To protect your Freedom, we have to take away your freedom"-bullshit.

Every. Fucking. Time.

And this is how those terrorist fucks win. I'm a perfectly aware you have to give government forces some liberties to ensure security and making research possible, but every time a tragedy happens politicians fall over each other to make laws that bring us on a very slippery slope...

The key part is "under state of emergency". It's not a power the government is giving itself to use in any situation, and right now the state of emergency can only be validated by the Parliament, after the first 12 days.
And I think that's clearly useful in some situations. I'm pretty sure that without the SOE, it wouldn't have been possible to greenlight phone communications eavesdropping fast enough to locate Abaaoud in Saint Denis.
 

Kuldar

Member
It was also used quite a bit to let people know that their loved ones were safe.

Really terrible idea tbh.
I don't think asking if someone is safe count as praising terrorism or promoting terrorist actions.

As always for an amendment added to a law by some deputies during the vote, they didn't thought that it would be difficult to apply without being extrem... It's so stupid to add this thing.
 
I don't think blocking media and rights is all that bad, happens in china and people act like its terrible but they are much safer from themselves than we are in america from giving people ideas with showing them things in the media all the time. People are too curious perhaps. I know a lot of you won't agree but i hope you will be understanding to what I am saying a bit.

is there really a reason we need details, it's all I saw as the shooting was goig on. Does it help us to know how many were shot or how they were shot or arrested? It's good to know that the guys are off the streets but all the other things, I dunno man.
 

Nivash

Member
The key part is "under state of emergency". It's not a power the government is giving itself to use in any situation, and right now the state of emergency can only be validated by the Parliament, after the first 12 days.
And I think that's clearly useful in some situations. I'm pretty sure that without the SOE, it wouldn't have been possible to greenlight phone communications eavesdropping fast enough to locate Abaaoud in Saint Denis.

Parliament just voted to extend the state of emergency to 3 months, though.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20151119/france-to-extend-state-of-emergency

This is a very dangerous path no matter how well intentioned. Using a state of emergency to speed up police interventions is one thing, using it to mess about with freedom of expression is something different.

I don't think blocking media and rights is all that bad, happens in china and people act like its terrible but they are much safer from themselves than we are in america from giving people ideas with showing them things in the media all the time. People are too curious perhaps. I know a lot of you won't agree but i hope you will be understanding to what I am saying a bit.

is there really a reason we need details, it's all I saw as the shooting was goig on. Does it help us to know how many were shot or how they were shot or arrested? It's good to know that the guys are off the streets but all the other things, I dunno man.

China's a one party state and they abuse their ability to restrict information all the time resulting in people not having an informed opinion on very important topics, just because they're a threat to the Party - like the Tianmen square massacre or even things like environmental reports. Independent access to information is absolutely vital for a functioning democracy.
 

Alx

Member
Parliament just voted to extend the state of emergency to 3 months, though.

Well yes, as it is required in the current condition. The thing is that the Parliament is in control of specific situations when common rights can't be entirely respected, but they do it as elected representatives of the people, so it stays democratic. And if the government abuses that right the assembly can refuse to grant them that power.
 

Saucy_XL

Banned
I don't think blocking media and rights is all that bad, happens in china and people act like its terrible but they are much safer from themselves than we are in america from giving people ideas with showing them things in the media all the time. People are too curious perhaps. I know a lot of you won't agree but i hope you will be understanding to what I am saying a bit.

is there really a reason we need details, it's all I saw as the shooting was goig on. Does it help us to know how many were shot or how they were shot or arrested? It's good to know that the guys are off the streets but all the other things, I dunno man.


Paid Chinese propaganda spreader? Like what
 
What's an "apologist argument", what's "terrorism"? That's exactly the kind of broad phrasing that can be easily abused by the government to block unwanted anti-government websites (read: censorship).

Now, Hollande can only have the best intentions in mind (and I'm sure he has) but eventually, someone will succeed him and he / she may have less than good intentions and could abuse the law to his / her own advantage. It's a slippery slope and France needs to be careful to not give up what it stands for in the wake of the attack.

Given this can be done only during a state of emergency it really narrows down what the the definition of terrorism is. Also, there are people who encourage this kind of attacks or minimize them: those would be the apologists.

"France needs to be careful to not give up what it stands for in the wake of the attack"
What does that mean ? What does France stand for after these attacks and what did they stand for before the attacks ?
The way you perceive France might have changed but it doesn't mean the country or its politicians have.
 

Jisgsaw

Member
Parliament just voted to extend the state of emergency to 3 months, though.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20151119/france-to-extend-state-of-emergency

This is a very dangerous path no matter how well intentioned. Using a state of emergency to speed up police interventions is one thing, using it to mess about with freedom of expression is something different.

Classic case of "To protect your Freedom, we have to take away your freedom"-bullshit.

Every. Fucking. Time.

And this is how those terrorist fucks win. I'm a perfectly aware you have to give government forces some liberties to ensure security and making research possible, but every time a tragedy happens politicians fall over each other to make laws that bring us on a very slippery slope...

Wow, disgusting. They didn't waste anytime fucking over their citizens and stripping rights.

Sounds like a terrible idea, what the actual fuck

What's an "apologist argument", what's "terrorism"? That's exactly the kind of broad phrasing that can be easily abused by the government to block unwanted anti-government websites (read: censorship).

Now, Hollande can only have the best intentions in mind (and I'm sure he has) but eventually, someone will succeed him and he / she may have less than good intentions and could abuse the law to his / her own advantage. It's a slippery slope and France needs to be careful to not give up what it stands for in the wake of the attack.

Well, on the flip side, this was also voted during the same voting round:
"On the other hand, it also removed a provision from the original 1955 act that permitted the government to censor the press, radio, films and theater performances during a state of emergency."
http://www.ibtimes.com/french-parli...-block-websites-social-media-services-2191726

So it actually changed the law so that censorship during a state of emergency is less likely.

I have followed the proposition made during the assembly, a lot of anti-citizen right laws were rejected.
 
Parliament just voted to extend the state of emergency to 3 months, though.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20151119/france-to-extend-state-of-emergency

This is a very dangerous path no matter how well intentioned. Using a state of emergency to speed up police interventions is one thing, using it to mess about with freedom of expression is something different..

Doing it is a dangerous path, not doing it is a dangerous path. Leaders are there to make decisions and act with force.

The result of this dangerous path is that the mastermind was killed and hundreds of other raids conducted and suspects arrested.

Dangerous or not, I like these odds right now
 
Reading RAID's account of yesterday's assault, it's incredible how this place was turned into a war zone, between the quantity of ammo, the explosions when they threw grenades at each other, the floor crumbling.
I can't imagine if they hadn't flattened these fuckers, we'd have another bloody Friday on our hands.


Nah that is Kylo French
LOL

Doing it is a dangerous path, not doing it is a dangerous path. Leaders are there to make decisions and act with force.

The result of this dangerous path is that the mastermind was killed and hundreds of other raids conducted and suspects arrested.

Dangerous or not, I like these odds right now
Yeah, I'm French and I can live with these odds.

People should also stop conflating the state of emergency prolongation and the social media part. The social media thing is mostly PR as they already voted a law in November last year that essentially did the same thing and pretty much doubled down with another set of laws earlier this year. Never mind that the latter have yet to be applied. If anything, I'd question the efficiency of the current lawmakers.
 

M52B28

Banned
Reading RAID's account of yesterday's assault, it's incredible how this place was turned into a war zone, between the quantity of ammo, the explosions when they threw grenades at each other, the floor crumbling.
I can't imagine if they hadn't flattened these fuckers, we'd have another bloody Friday on our hands.



LOL
Where can I read this? Link?
 

chadskin

Member
Given this can be done only during a state of emergency it really narrows down what the the definition of terrorism is. Also, there are people who encourage this kind of attacks or minimize them: those would be the apologists.

"France needs to be careful to not give up what it stands for in the wake of the attack"
What does that mean ? What does France stand for after these attacks and what did they stand for before the attacks ?
The way you perceive France might have changed but it doesn't mean the country or its politicians have.

Firstly, it was a hastily enacted state of emergency law in the wake of the Reichstag fire in 1933 that eventually led to Hitler's rise to power. Certainly, the Weimar Republic lacked the necessary checks and balances to prevent the misuse of power, in addition to the law being an indefinite one, but a three-month state of emergency is nothing to just brush off. It's a precedent that requires a high level of scrutiny.

Secondly, there are plenty, plenty of examples of supposedly "acceptable internet safety measures" that sooner or later were abused to enforce censorship, precisely because they've been phrased very broadly. Take Russia for instance:
In its new 11,500-word report on the ways in which Russian officials are misusing the country’s anti-extremism laws, the SOVA human rights monitoring organization concludes that one of the most important trends of the last year is a dramatic increase in the role of the FSB in such actions.

There are two basic sources of such misuse: excessive actions by poorly trained law enforcement personnel who are given little guidance by the laws themselves and “the conscious formation of mechanisms for suppression of opposition and simply independent forms of activity”.

The latter has become “much more in evidence from the middle of 2012” when the authorities used anti-extremism laws to suppress opposition protests. “Unfortunately,” SOVA writes, “with the falloff in opposition activity, the growth of the repressive component did not cease” but in fact increased.
http://www.interpretermag.com/fsb-increasingly-involved-in-misuse-of-anti-extremism-laws-sova-says/

Thirdly, France's very own slogan names liberté as one of its key principles and I'd like it to stay that way. After Charlie Hebdo, France has already implemented one of the more intrusive surveillance laws which were ultimately still unable to prevent the Paris attacks. Instead of talking about possibly adopting new, even more intrusive surveillance laws and measures at an emotionally charged time, the French authorities should look into what exactly went wrong this time and carefully take the necessary measures at an appropriate time. Given that the perpetrators of terror attacks have often been known to authorities before, it's evident that simply increasing the mass data collection of every citizen is not a sensible solution.

See also French civil rights group La Quadrature du Net's appeal: http://www.laquadrature.net/en/together-in-sorrow-looking-at-the-future
 
1. wtf
2. what do syrian refugee's have to do w/ this attack ?

WTF what? I don't get it. Why are some of you getting all pissy because I asked a question because I haven't been following the news? It's like you are trying to read something into my post that isn't there. I never implied a damn thing. Just asked a simple question. So please tell me what is so wrong about me asking if there has been any kind of a response?
 

Alx

Member
Where can I read this? Link?

If you can read French there is an interesting summary of the events by the director of RAID on Le Monde website :
http://www.lemonde.fr/attaques-a-pa...te-par-le-patron-du-raid_4812977_4809495.html

Tells how they entered the building, couldn't surprise the people there because they failed to blow up a reinforced door entirely, turtled behind bulletproof shields and entered a firefight that didn't stop for one hour. using assault rifles, grenades and snipers.. There's even a gruesome detail about how
the head of the woman and other body parts flew out of the window after she triggered the explosion.

On TV news, a guy living in the neighborhood told how he heard the policemen talking on their radio, saying they were running low on ammo and needed supply.

Also I checked the area on Google Street, and those streets are really narrow (as a matter of fact it doesn't look like the Google car could drive through the one of the assault). It must have made everything much harder.
 
There are nuances betwenn Sharia Law and secularity. Denying that he's made steps towards it and that the tendency isn't going to change as long as he's there is not wrong either (and considering his tactics he'll probably be there for a long time).
I'm not sure why you're finding any of this ridiculous considering the guy has led openly islamic politics in the past. But sure, people in the street celebrating after an election, chanting "This is the victory of Islam" points me to a very secular country.

Turkey is a Secular country (as in constitutionally, legislatively etc.) filled with varying demographics, some living Secular lifestyle, some religious, some paying lip service to religion but living Secular lifestyles etc.
 

M52B28

Banned
I read that in French here:
http://mobile.lemonde.fr/attaques-a...te-par-le-patron-du-raid_4812977_4809495.html

But given how riveting the story is I can't imagine foreign media won't pick it. I'm looking around and will update if I find anything.

They have another article describing how much of a shithole the building was, and who all the poor people leaving around are.
Alright, thanks.

I can read a bit of French, but there are some things I can't actually process.
 
Parliament just voted to extend the state of emergency to 3 months, though.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20151119/france-to-extend-state-of-emergency

This is a very dangerous path no matter how well intentioned. Using a state of emergency to speed up police interventions is one thing, using it to mess about with freedom of expression is something different.



China's a one party state and they abuse their ability to restrict information all the time resulting in people not having an informed opinion on very important topics, just because they're a threat to the Party - like the Tianmen square massacre or even things like environmental reports. Independent access to information is absolutely vital for a functioning democracy.

Of course I don't agree with everything they do, but I can't say showing all the bad things and details will help. THeir crime rate is a lot lower in china, but I don't
like them forcing what people should do or not do as far as a few things for sure.

Of course I don't like them hiding things such as environmental issues. But, not showing and broadcasting murders and other things is a plus in my book. When the chinese people witnes the events in paris they aren't realy ito giving a huge opinion on it either.
 

Jisgsaw

Member
Firstly, it was a hastily enacted state of emergency law in the wake of the Reichstag fire in 1933 that eventually led to Hitler's rise to power. Certainly, the Weimar Republic lacked the necessary checks and balances to prevent the misuse of power, in addition to the law being an indefinite one, but a three-month state of emergency is nothing to just brush off. It's a precedent that requires a high level of scrutiny.

Secondly, there are plenty, plenty of examples of supposedly "acceptable internet safety measures" that sooner or later were abused to enforce censorship, precisely because they've been phrased very broadly. Take Russia for instance:

http://www.interpretermag.com/fsb-increasingly-involved-in-misuse-of-anti-extremism-laws-sova-says/

Thirdly, France's very own slogan names liberté as one of its key principles and I'd like it to stay that way. After Charlie Hebdo, France has already implemented one of the more intrusive surveillance laws which were ultimately still unable to prevent the Paris attacks. Instead of talking about possibly adopting new, even more intrusive surveillance laws and measures at an emotionally charged time, the French authorities should look into what exactly went wrong this time and carefully take the necessary measures at an appropriate time. Given that the perpetrators of terror attacks have often been known to authorities before, it's evident that simply increasing the mass data collection of every citizen is not a sensible solution.

See also French civil rights group La Quadrature du Net's appeal: http://www.laquadrature.net/en/together-in-sorrow-looking-at-the-future

Again, during the same vote, they remove a far more intrusive law that allowed, up until now, the complete censur of any media during a state of emergency.
Having a law that permits to shut down certain pages under certain condition is a nice tradeof.

Edit: actually, the Senate still has to vote on these amendments tomorrow.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom