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[Roland Garros]

Roland, I'm kind of disappointed. I thought we had thoroughly covered this

If you're implying I had softened my stance, you are mistaken. I still firmly believe the 'collateral damage' argument is ferociously unfair to the innocents involved.

People mocking the devastation felt by an innocent old lady doesn't help perceptions of that side of the argument, either.

The whole thing is a depressing clusterfuck.

 

[Brazil]

Becuase that what i said? Seriously go fuck yourself. You don't have a moral authority because I apparently have the audacity to ask a basic question that had no value judgment on taking down the statue.

My God, man. What the hell are you doing.

 

[remnant]

The question has absolutely no relevance. That was the gist of my response.

It's meaningless to ask whether the victims said anything about the JoePa statue, because of course they didn't. Whatever their feelings about it, they aren't going to say anything, and so whether they've said anything is not evidence either way for their feelings on the statue. It's completely irrelevant to anything?

I completely disagree. They are the victims not you, and i would find their opinion on JoePa and the football program as a whole to being vital, especially considering what the NCAA does on monday could change how that university works for a very long time.

But even if I what i asked is insensitive, i refuse to believe it's akin to supporting child rape. That's bullshit

 

[Cyan]

I completely disagree. They are the victims not you, and i would find their opinion on JoePa and the football program as a whole to being vital, especially considering what the NCAA does on monday could change how that university works for a very long time.

Disagree with what? The whole point is that we don't know their opinion on JoePa, etc, and we never will.

Whether they've spoken out is irrelevant because the question gives us no information about their opinion. Whatever their opinion, they will not speak out.

 

[Big Baybee]

What the fuck is wrong with Penn St fans? Wow

 

[shira]

I completely disagree. They are the victims not you, and i would find their opinion on JoePa and the football program as a whole to being vital, especially considering what the NCAA does on monday could change how that university works for a very long time.

But even if I what i asked is insensitive, i refuse to believe it's akin to supporting child rape. That's bullshit

Take a timeout man. Chill out. Come back in a bit

 

[BobTheFork]

Since I've been following this for a long time, I wanted to sum up some feelings before I pull myself away.

On the students:

I can truly understand the feeling of some people in these pictures and on line about how upset they are. The students and University have been carrying around a certain attitude about what they represent and the kind of organization they were. The trouble is it's all hubris; they attached themselves to a kind of smugness about how upstanding and righteous and great they were. At the center of that is the man that was supposed to epitomize that greatness, Joepa. Now, they find out their god has failed, and horribly. They are distraught and just scrounging to find something good they can cling to. Arguing that he still did so much good and that the statues should stay up and it's not fair to punish the program and students now. They had all of this hubris buried and they'll say anything to be able to think they can still present Penn State as anything great, and it's coming off as selfish

On JoePA:

To anyone saying that one bad action can't ruin him, I'm sorry but you are wrong. This is not a single bad action, it's an infinite number of them. Every day, every hour that he knew about this and did nothing it a horrible mistake. Any minute of any day in the last however many years he could have stopped this and saved future incidents. I do think that some people are bringing more anger upon Joe than they even brought on Sandusky, who is a fucking monster. It makes me wonder if they want to see someone highly thought of torn down or found out but in the end it does all comes down to Joe. He was in charge at that school. He had the clout and power to override anyone there, so the responsibility of negligence has to fall on him the hardest. In the end all of the great things he did may not matter. What we really found out is that the great and highest man was just an average shmuck like anyone. He knew and he did nothing because of how it could make him look. But not just him, the program he built and the university and it's perception (that were all a result of him) would be ruined as well. We found out he is a man who did the right thing and helped as long as it didn't hurt him, what he built or what he stood for and that's not a great man. Maybe I'm just pessimistic but that is how I view most of the world, full of people who seem willing the right thing as long as it won't effect them personally. I don''t think the situation is unique to Penn state; Any school or institution would try to save their ass and reputation above all else. That's what it makes Joe, not a monster, but just some average bum who wasn't great or righteous at all.

Reality can be a bitch, and it's going to take most of the students and supporters some serious time before they come to terms with reality. I'll give the students a pass for now as they deny and act foolish. Any faculty who knew need to be routed out and the football program should be forced to take a long hiatus.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I don''t think the situation is unique to Penn state; Any school or institution would try to save their ass and reputation above all else.

I was with you up to here.

I disagree strongly. Not every university or officially would be okay with covering up child rape.

And no, not every "average bum" would turn a blind eye to child rape.

That shit just isn't true and I'm surprised you think so lowly of most people.

 

[BobTheFork]

I was with you up to here.

I disagree strongly.

MAybe I should have said most? Like I said I'm a pessimist, I think most people and groups want to cover their ass more than anything. I don't think it happened because Penn State was secretly a group of horrible people, they are just self serving and afraid of ruining their reputations. That's how I view most people and organizations; trying to cover it up as long as possible.

edit: Dream-Vision, maybe I'm leveling the field too much but I wasn't arguing the specifics of child rape to this case. In fact, I think the more horrible the crime and harder people would try to cover it up. It's part of the culture of an institution. That's why JoePa wasn't the sole person who know. MAny of them did and they didn't want to ruin themselves. It took a few people to come forward to open the flood gate. MAny of the victims were terrified for years and it wasn't just of Sandusky, it was of the mammoth institution of Penn state and the power they had.

 

[Mengy]

I completely disagree. They are the victims not you, and i would find their opinion on JoePa and the football program as a whole to being vital, especially considering what the NCAA does on monday could change how that university works for a very long time.

But even if I what i asked is insensitive, i refuse to believe it's akin to supporting child rape. That's bullshit

Their opinions do not matter when it comes to the statue. It is being taken down for JoePa's inaction, period. The victims have no say on the matter, nor should anyone press them for their opinions on this. What JoePa did was horrible and unforgivable, especially for a man in his position, and his statue will be removed because of that.

He did a lot of good, but on this one very important matter, he fucked up royally. And he did so purposefully. He willingly turned his back to his friend molesting children IN HIS OWN DAMNED LOCKER ROOM because it was better for himself, his career, his legacy, his friend (Sandusky), and the football reputation. The children and their safety was second fiddle to JoePa.

And for that, the statue will thankfully come down.

 

[Diablos]

Paternos are saying taking down statue "does not serve victims" of Jerry Sandusky

Fuck this family.

Hey Paternos, did JoePa serve the victims by looking the other way all those years when he knew the assistant coach was a pedo?

Ah, penn state.

Sickening. How hard is it to understand how badly this man fucked up?

The fascination with Paterno is really gross, especially in light of how huge of a mistake he made.

+1 NCAA.

sarcasm bro.

I already said ti was just a statue earlier.

I don't see what this really solves.

It doesn't solve anything, it's more symbolic than anything else. Why would you leave up a statue of a man who covered for Sandusky, even if indirectly, on campus? Can you give me a good reason?

 

[border]

I think I prefer the Death Penalty as a symbolic gesture, even if the loss of scholarships would be ultimately more damaging.

It seems like the NCAA wants to have it both ways -- they want to punish Penn State, but at the same time enjoy all the revenue that their program brings in. They know that these morons in the community will continue to keep going to games if the program isn't suspended (and probably in greater numbers now that they all feel like such victims who have to show their support for the university).

Who is going to play for them without scholarships though? Just regular students? I suppose what remains to be seen is whether or not people will keep turning up to games once they have a team of utter amateurs stinking up the field and they cannot compete against former rivals. Once all the shock and furor has died down, I'm not sure if there will be enough enthusiasm left to support a bad team. But then again my perception of most college athletics is that the spectators don't really care about the team's overall quality or standing. It's largely about tooting your own horn as a student or alumni.

 

[Kosmo]

And in news of what a joke the NCAA is:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162...ented-penalties-against-penn-state/?tag=stack

NCAA source: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State


(CBS News) CBS News has learned that the NCAA will announce what a high-ranking association source called "unprecedented" penalties against both the Penn State University football team and the school.

"I've never seen anything like it," the source told correspondent Armen Keteyian.

NCAA President Mark Emmert will make the announcement Monday morning at 9 a.m. at the organization's headquarters in Indianapolis.

The penalties come in the wake of the independent report by former FBI Director Louis Freeh that chronicled repeated efforts by four top Penn State officials, including former football coach Joe Paterno, to conceal allegations of serial child sex abuse by Jerry Sandusky over a 14-year period.

The NCAA had been awaiting the school's response to four key questions pertaining to the sex abuse scandal, including issues involving institutional control and ethics.

So you're thinking "Death Penalty" right? Nope:

http://espn.go.com/college-football...-facing-death-penalty-monday-ncaa-source-says

NCAA president Mark Emmert has decided to punish Penn State with severe penalties likely to include a significant loss of scholarships and loss of multiple bowls, a source close to the decision told ESPN's Joe Schad on Sunday morning.

But Penn State will not receive the so-called "death penalty" that would have suspended the program for at least one year, the source said.

In other words, fucking windows dressing. The scholarship thing is a joke, no matter how many they take away. The University has so many ways to make up for athletic scholarships (e.g. just giving kids "academic" scholarships, or having big-time alumni fund tuition, etc.) that it's a joke.


If they are not going to do the death penalty, they should do a REAL symbolic gesture - make every Penn State home game this year an empty stadium.

 

[kirblar]

What the fuck is wrong with Penn St fans? Wow

There's a reason Football is often referred to as a religion.

 

[BobTheFork]

There's a reason Football is often referred to as a religion.

As I said, their God failed them and they are a ridiculous mess right now. Time will change some of that but not all of it.

 

[diffusionx]

Like I said, these kids will figure it out once they get older. A lot of them grew up on Paterno idolatry.

Paternos are saying taking down statue "does not serve victims" of Jerry Sandusky

Fuck this family.

Yep. I'm amazed that these bastards keep digging the hole deeper. But I guess they have lived in this insular culture where they walked on water for 3+ decades so reality is not something they are used to.

 

[tokkun]

And in news of what a joke the NCAA is:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162...ented-penalties-against-penn-state/?tag=stack



So you're thinking "Death Penalty" right? Nope:

http://espn.go.com/college-football...-facing-death-penalty-monday-ncaa-source-says



In other words, fucking windows dressing. The scholarship thing is a joke, no matter how many they take away. The University has so many ways to make up for athletic scholarships (e.g. just giving kids "academic" scholarships, or having big-time alumni fund tuition, etc.) that it's a joke.


If they are not going to do the death penalty, they should do a REAL symbolic gesture - make every Penn State home game this year an empty stadium.

Logically speaking, "unprecedented" penalties would suggest that they are worse than the death penalty, since there is already precedent for the death penalty. Depending on the number of bowls lost, it could be worse.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

There's a reason Football is often referred to as a religion.

Yup. People take their sports almost like it is a religion. To me that's just crazy. I love my teams I root for but I'll be goddamned if I ever would support an organization that allowed what happened to happen.

 

[remnant]

Their opinions do not matter when it comes to the statue. It is being taken down for JoePa's inaction, period. The victims have no say on the matter, nor should anyone press them for their opinions on this. What JoePa did was horrible and unforgivable, especially for a man in his position, and his statue will be removed because of that.

He did a lot of good, but on this one very important matter, he fucked up royally. And he did so purposefully. He willingly turned his back to his friend molesting children IN HIS OWN DAMNED LOCKER ROOM because it was better for himself, his career, his legacy, his friend (Sandusky), and the football reputation. The children and their safety was second fiddle to JoePa.

And for that, the statue will thankfully come down.

I did not place a value judgment on any of the victims. I am not defending Paterno. I asked if any of them have come and said anything about the issue of the statue. I expected "yes or no" and yet somehow people took an incredibly basic question and twisted it into a defense of JoePa and child rape. I'm also not saying anyone should press them for a interview.

Those victims lived in the community as well. The same community that has people crying over it. There is a deep schism here. It goes deeper than just JoePa. it goes into the fabric of happy valley and how they felt about themselves. i don't think it's as easy as everyone there being stupid or in a cult as we would all like to believe.

 

[Kosmo]

Logically speaking, "unprecedented" penalties would suggest that they are worse than the death penalty, since there is already precedent for the death penalty.

True, but without the death penalty, it's a moot point. They aren't going to take away all of their scholarships (and certainly none from the kids currently on the team), and there are so many ways around it it's ridiculous. Even if they ban them from bowl games, all that does is hurt the kids on the team who had nothing to do with this.

Because it is almost August, I would even be OK with them playing this year and then putting in a 2-year death penalty. Let the kids who are there play, then give them time to find new schools without any sort of waiting period to play.

 

[border]

In other words, fucking windows dressing. The scholarship thing is a joke, no matter how many they take away. The University has so many ways to make up for athletic scholarships (e.g. just giving kids "academic" scholarships, or having big-time alumni fund tuition, etc.) that it's a joke.

Couldn't they simply state that nobody on the football team may receive ANY kind of scholarship, academic or otherwise?

And wouldn't having alumni fund players be a flagrant violation of the rules, so severe as to merit further punishment?

 

[Cyan]

In other words, fucking windows dressing. The scholarship thing is a joke, no matter how many they take away. The University has so many ways to make up for athletic scholarships (e.g. just giving kids "academic" scholarships, or having big-time alumni fund tuition, etc.) that it's a joke.

Well, no. I agree that the death penalty seems more appropriate, but loss of scholarships is not toothless. There's no getting around it--kids with academic scholarships would have to forfeit them if they made the team, if a big-time alum funded tuition and it were discovered, the NCAA really would have grounds for the death penalty, etc.

 

[Slurmer]

If this isn't a bad enough uncovering to warrant the death penalty, I don't have any idea what would be.

 

[mre]

And in news of what a joke the NCAA is:


So you're thinking "Death Penalty" right? Nope:


In other words, fucking windows dressing. The scholarship thing is a joke, no matter how many they take away. The University has so many ways to make up for athletic scholarships (e.g. just giving kids "academic" scholarships, or having big-time alumni fund tuition, etc.) that it's a joke.

I'm assuming you don't pay much attention to college football, because the loss of scholarships is huge. They cannot do the other things you suggested.

 

[Cyan]

I did not place a value judgment on any of the victims. I am not defending Paterno. I asked if any of them have come and said anything about the issue of the statue. I expected "yes or no" and yet somehow people took an incredibly basic question and twisted it into a defense of JoePa and child rape. I'm also not saying anyone should press them for a interview.

It may not have been obvious to you that the answer was no, in which case I probably responded too harshly. But I think you can see that if it were already obvious to the asker that the answer was no, then the question would be a motivated one--the expected "no" response would imply that the statue shouldn't have been taken down.

The people responding angrily to your question assumed that you already knew the answer and that the question was so motivated.

 

[Big Baybee]

Every Penn St football player should have the ability to transfer to a different school without having to sit out a year.

 

[TS-08]

I'm assuming you don't pay much attention to college football, because the loss of scholarships is huge. They cannot do the other things you suggested.

Not only that, but the source speaking to CNN said the punishment goes well beyond a scholarship restriction and a postseason ban.

 

[Spehornoob]

It may not have been obvious to you that the answer was no, in which case I probably responded too harshly. But I think you can see that if it were already obvious to the asker that the answer was no, then the question would be a motivated one--the expected "no" response would imply that the statue shouldn't have been taken down.

The people responding angrily to your question assumed that you already knew the answer and that the question was so motivated.

Maybe people shouldn't attack others based on assumptions.

ON topic. I'm for the Death Penalty here. This was a problem based around people raising a sport to a place in which they were willing to cover up child molestation rather than have the sport take a hit. Get rid of it. It's just a game, no matter how many people think otherwise.

 

[Yaboosh]

Every Penn St football player should have the ability to transfer to a different school without having to sit out a year.

That is almost guaranteed I think.

 

[Cyan]

Maybe people shouldn't attack others based on assumptions.

That would be nice. It would also be nice if those assumptions hadn't been proven correct in this thread, almost every time.

 

[TS-08]

Maybe people shouldn't attack others based on assumptions.

ON topic. I'm for the Death Penalty here. This was a problem based around people raising a sport to a place in which they were willing to cover up child molestation rather than have the sport take a hit. Get rid of it. It's just a game, no matter how many people think otherwise.

If these punishments are as serious as we are hearing, it will essentially be "just a game" in Happy Valley for the foreseeable future.

 

[Sanjuro]

Yeah, I didn't think the Death Penalty would happen.

 

[Knux-Future]

Every Penn St football player should have the ability to transfer to a different school without having to sit out a year.

It's a bit late for that.


and most of them aren't good enough to make other schools or they cannot afford other schools.

It's going to be a clusterfuck no matter what.

Collateral Damage I guess

 

[Forever]

I did not place a value judgment on any of the victims. I am not defending Paterno. I asked if any of them have come and said anything about the issue of the statue. I expected "yes or no" and yet somehow people took an incredibly basic question and twisted it into a defense of JoePa and child rape. I'm also not saying anyone should press them for a interview.

But you did place a value judgment, you said it was "crass" to factor in consideration for the victims into any decisions regarding the statue and the football program. Think about that carefully and hopefully you'll realize how upside down that thinking is. You claim that you're not in a cult but to everyone on the outside it sure looks like one.

 

[Diablos]

In all fairness I think the NCAA will drive away a lot of momentum from the team and will permanently marginalize it. They could have outright suspended the team from playing any games, but these punishments seem pretty harsh, not to mention this is only part of the full punishment. I'd stay tuned and see what else comes down the wire before reacting to initial reports.

I'm disappointed that they didn't just shut the whole team down for at least a year or two, but I wasn't expecting it either. But it looks like they have some things in place that are going to cripple the team for years to come, and frankly, they deserve it.

 

[remnant]

It may not have been obvious to you that the answer was no, in which case I probably responded too harshly. But I think you can see that if it were already obvious to the asker that the answer was no, then the question would be a motivated one--the expected "no" response would imply that the statue shouldn't have been taken down.

The people responding angrily to your question assumed that you already knew the answer and that the question was so motivated.

So people accused me of supporting Paterno and child rape based off of assumptions. That's really smart.

Anyway back on-topic

If this isn't a bad enough uncovering to warrant the death penalty, I don't have any idea what would be.

The death penalty isn't designed to punish schools who cover-up things indiscriminately. it's designed to return competitive balance to the sport.

 

[Cyan]

So people accused me of supporting Paterno and child rape based off of assumptions. That's really smart.

Feel free to go back and tell me where I was wrong in my responses to you. I'll wait.

 

[diffusionx]

and most of them aren't good enough to make other schools or they cannot afford other schools.

Penn State is a Big 10 school. They recruit the cream of the crop. I think any scholarship player at Penn State could get a scholarship at another school.

Not in late July, though.

 

[Forever]

So people accused me of supporting Paterno and child rape based off of assumptions. That's really smart.

You are not a victim.

 

[remnant]

That would be nice. It would also be nice if those assumptions hadn't been proven correct in this thread, almost every time.

Find a post Cyan. Find a post in this thread where I defended Paterno or Sandusky

 

[Knux-Future]

Penn State is a Big 10 school. They recruit the cream of the crop. I think any scholarship player at Penn State could get a scholarship at another school.

Not in late July, though.

Yeah that's more so my point (although PSU recruiting classes have been weak as fuck lately)no scholarships left to give and some teams might be set in stone at this point.

They waited to long to make a move.

 

[Forever]

Find a post Cyan. Find a post in this thread where I defended Paterno or Sandusky

Where were you accused of defending Sandusky? You were slammed for saying that consideration for the victims is crass.

 

[border]

So people accused me of supporting Paterno and child rape based off of assumptions. That's really smart.

Your question was incredibly leading and loaded. People assumed it was not asked out of naive innocence, because nobody is naive or innocent enough to think a rape victim would approve of a statue of a man who protected their rapist from justice.

 

[Cyan]

Find a post Cyan. Find a post in this thread where I defended Paterno or Sandusky

Find a post where I said you defended... you know what, this is ridiculous. You asked a dumb question and got responses accordingly. Maybe think about it more next time.

 

[diffusionx]

They waited to long to make a move.

They were waiting for the Freeh report. I agree the timing is bad for the current players, but unfortunately that's the way it goes sometimes.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Logically speaking, "unprecedented" penalties would suggest that they are worse than the death penalty, since there is already precedent for the death penalty. Depending on the number of bowls lost, it could be worse.

I wonder how much worse than the death penalty the NCAA can get before it starts making non-NCAA options look attractive. I don't follow college football too much outside of my alma mater (not Penn State,) but hasn't there been some talk periodically about the big name schools forming some sort of non-NCAA football association to get around the NCAA's rules?

With all of the contracts and stuff around college football (e.g. Big10 needs 12 teams to have a championship game, etc...) maybe the NCAA will look to UEFA for punishments and have Penn State play home games behind closed doors for a while.

 

[giga]

The NCAA is set to levy the first presidential sanctioning in the association’s history on Monday when it will impose what one source termed “significant” and “staggering” penalties against the Nittany Lions' football program in the wake of the Jerry Sandusky scandal, Yahoo! Sports has learned.

Two sources with knowledge of the Penn State penalties said NCAA president Mark Emmert will announce Monday that he is personally sanctioning Penn State after receiving approval from the association’s Division I Board of directors, which is comprised of 22 college presidents and chancellors. One source told Yahoo! Sports Emmert’s sanctions will include a “multiple-year” bowl ban and “crippling” scholarship losses.

However, Emmert is expected to detail that the action is backed by a special provision allowing such a step if he receives approval from the NCAA’s board of directors. A source told Y! Sports the NCAA is prepared to defend the lack of an investigation by focusing on the Freeh Report, and Emmert’s determination that the report provided actionable evidence.

Emmert's discussion of defending the NCAA’s constitution is expected to focus at least in part on Article 2.4 of the NCAA’s constitution, which Emmert excerpted in his letter to Penn State on Nov. 17, 2011. In that letter, Emmert cited the passage that “for intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and responsibility. These values should not only be manifest in athletics participation, but also in the broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program.”

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf-...ggering--penalties-from-sandusky-scandal.html

 

[Forever]

Find a post where I said you defended... you know what, this is ridiculous. You asked a dumb question and got responses accordingly. Maybe think about it more next time.

I think remnant honestly believes he didn't say anything wrong and is willing to perform whatever mental gymnastics he must in order to protect that belief. You could call it Penn State culture, I guess.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf-...ggering--penalties-from-sandusky-scandal.html

With a long enough bowl ban, that sounds good to me.

 

[Plinko]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf-...ggering--penalties-from-sandusky-scandal.html

Yep--depending on the "crippling" scholarship losses, that's worse than the "death penalty."

I REALLY hope the bowl ban is 5 years or more. 10 would be amazing.

 

[Daydream Sequence]

Every Penn St football player should have the ability to transfer to a different school without having to sit out a year.

According to Albert Breer (NFL insider and Ohio State Alum), every other major college is currently looking over the Penn State roster to see who would benefit their team the most. Penn State appears to be screwed for the next few years. And I can't say I'm upset about it. Just because the pathetic individuals responsible for it are dead or in jail, doesn't mean the institution doesn't bare some blame, which clearly Freeh and now the NCAA agree with. Hopefully the students that are mourning the loss of a statue will find a way to extricate their heads from their asses in the near future. For their own sake.