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Penn State football pedophilia thread (UPDATE: NCAA sanctions handed down)

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Salazar

Member
zmoney said:
Have you ever been to a big time college football game? Go to Auburn-Alabama, Texas-Texas A&M...

then get back to me.

What would I have learned, save that crowds are noisy and that the quality of stadium food is variable ? And that folks who like football like football ?

If you mean that these schools do, on and around football days, go universally and utterly crazy for football, to the neglect of everything else, then I accept the point without demonstration.
 

Pollux

Member
Salazar said:
What would I have learned, save that crowds are noisy and that the quality of stadium food is variable ? And that folks who like football like football ?
Your arguing that it isn't good for a school. They serve to bring schools together. They're something to be proud of. There's nothing else like it in the world (as far as I know nobody else in the world follows that level of athletics in any sport by the millions and fill up stadiums that easily seat 100K+)
 

Cyan

Banned
beast786 said:
no it's paying for a football team when it travels to a bowl game. food, plane , lodging for all 70 players and all coaches , trainers, equipment people, cheerleaders, technical staff, medical staff, etc etc.
What nonsense. There are 11 players on a football team. Maybe 15 to 20 to allow for reasonable substitutions as players get tired from running up and down the field.

And surely they can travel by train like everyone else?

zmoney said:
Your arguing that it isn't good for a school. They serve to bring schools together. They're something to be proud of.
Exactly. Just look at how it brought Penn State together, and how good that pride was for the school.
 

Salazar

Member
zmoney said:
Your arguing that it isn't good for a school. They serve to bring schools together. They're something to be proud of. There's nothing else like it in the world (as far as I know nobody else in the world follows that level of athletics in any sport by the millions and fill up stadiums that easily seat 100K+)

There aren't universities elsewhere in the world that devote themselves to the construction of stadia to seat that many people. Because that tends not to be a priority of an intelligently governed university. Developing a gigantic sports franchise to compete with the one in the next state along just doesn't come up on the radar. The rest of the world is probably, broadly speaking, content with the phenomenon being largely confined to the US. I don't argue that sport is undifferentiatedly bad for colleges. Fuck, I'd enjoy it if I sat down and watched it. I agree that people probably develop some rudimentary affection for each other and for their college through the shared experience, but I don't think that's worth it. I don't think universities should have to put on increasingly lavish entertainments for students to care about them. I don't think a professionalised-in-all-but-the-monetary-respects sports program is what university administrators now like to call "core business".
 

Dude Abides

Banned
mre said:
t's late and I'm feeling too lazy and tired to look up actual numbers, but, if I remember correctly, Nick Saban's total compensation is something like $5.5m, but is only paid less than $200k out of public funds by the University of Alabama.

So about $2k for every kid he signs in a recruiting class. Seems about right.
 

Pollux

Member
Salazar said:
There aren't universities elsewhere in the world that devote themselves to the construction of stadia to seat that many people. Because that tends not to be a priority of an intelligently governed university. Developing a gigantic sports franchise to compete with the one in the next state along just doesn't come up on the radar. The rest of the world is probably, broadly speaking, content with the phenomenon being largely confined to the US. I don't argue that sport is undifferentiatedly bad for colleges. Fuck, I'd enjoy it if I sat down and watched it. I agree that people probably develop some rudimentary affection for each other and for their college through the shared experience, but I don't think that's worth it. I don't think universities should have to put on increasingly lavish entertainments for students to care about them. I don't think a professionalised-in-all-but-the-monetary-respects sports program is what university administrators now like to call "core business".
I can't really explain it but it's just something we do. Maybe you have to be American, or have gone to an American school, or just experienced it first hand....I dunno.
 

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
Fine, I did the research:
Saban's base salary (paid by the state) is $245k.

The median salary of tenured professors at Alabama make ~$120k.

However, I think a point of better comparison would be between Saban and the deans of the various colleges of the University of Alabama, some of who make:
Joseph Mason, dean of the Culverhouse College of Commerce and Business Administration, is the highest-paid dean and the fourth highest-earning employee of the university, making $301,000.

Kenneth Randall, dean of the UA School of Law, is the second highest-paid dean at $297,688 and the fifth highest-paid UA employee.

Ellis Marsh, dean of the College of Community Health Sciences, makes $266,717; Charles Carr, dean of engineering, at $260,000; Robert Olin, dean of arts and sciences, at $241,000; James McLean, dean of education, at $210,000; David Francko, dean of the graduate school, at $207,000 and Sara Barger, dean of nursing, at $202,081.

Pretty favorable comparison.
 

beast786

Member
Cyan said:
What nonsense. There are 11 players on a football team. Maybe 15 to 20 to allow for reasonable substitutions as players get tired from running up and down the field.

And surely they can travel by train like everyone

Are you trolling me?
 

Salazar

Member
mre said:

Power Rangers mogul.

I concede that Saban's crazy salary is not a straightforwardly negative reflection on the university (and it is plausible to assume that less well-off schools with less powerful boosters pay their coaches less in whole terms, but perhaps proportionally more).
 

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
beast786 said:
Not if we lose to Carolina this Sunday. :(
College ball is generally played on Thursdays and Saturdays, and Carolina plays Virginia Tech this Thursday.

Now you're trolling me! Or trying to!
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
zmoney said:
Your arguing that it isn't good for a school. They serve to bring schools together. They're something to be proud of. There's nothing else like it in the world (as far as I know nobody else in the world follows that level of athletics in any sport by the millions and fill up stadiums that easily seat 100K+)

I have never heard of a foreign university having fallen apart because of a lack of a football team. Unity and pride come from the institution and it's academic success. That is the point. Other universities are defined solely by their academics.

99.9% of the people in a US college are NOT athletes, but they devote 50% of their identity to that. That is weird when you think about it.
 

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
OuterWorldVoice said:
I have never heard of a foreign university having fallen apart because of a lack of a football team. Unity and pride come from the institution and it's academic success. That is the point. Other universities are defined solely by their academics.

99.9% of the people in a US college are NOT athletes, but they devote 50% of their identity to that. That is weird when you think about it.
Oooooo, statistics!
 

beast786

Member
mre said:
College ball is generally played on Thursdays and Saturdays, and Carolina plays Virginia Tech this Thursday.

Now you're trolling me! Or trying to!


Well, you know guys in shorts play will with ball also. maybe even this Sunday.

I wish I was at the game this Sunday.
 

Cyan

Banned
OuterWorldVoice said:
99.9% of the people in a US college are NOT athletes
Ah, so with 25,000 students at Berkeley, there are no more than 25 athletes.

Ha! That backs up my earlier argument about the size of the football team. How could it be as large as was suggested, when there are only 25 athletes at the school?
 

Salazar

Member
mre said:
You really want to have a Title IX discussion? We can do that tomorrow if you want to.

I imagine you'd be doing the bulk of the talking/typing. We'll leave it as something to look forward to.

Cyan said:
How could it be as large as was suggested, when there are only 25 athletes at the school?

Have you accidentally uncovered large scale identity fraud ?
 

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
Salazar said:
I imagine you'd be doing the bulk of the talking/typing. We'll leave it as something to look forward to.

Let me just address a couple of paragraphs from that article:

Let’s ask the question: What causes this insatiable need for female (or ersatz female) names and numbers? It stems from the gigantic elephant leaving proof of its presence smack in the middle of most college campuses: King Football.

Even at the moderate Division I programs — the ones that are kicked around in the early weeks of the season in return for a big payoff — football squads include more than 100 players, most of them on scholarship. That’s easy enough to detect — just look at the duplicate numbers standing side by side during a game, one an offensive player, one a defensive player, unable to be on the field at the same time. The powerhouses are stockpiling bodies, presumably so other teams cannot get at them.

Could these bloated coaching staffs of 10 or 12 or more (with goodness knows how many graduate assistants, etc.) not make do with, let’s say, 85 players? Teach them two positions in case of injuries to the first three or four players on the depth charts? Isn’t adaptability a good thing to learn in higher education?

This glut of very large people — think of the food, the dorm rooms, the weights needed to sustain these standing armies — is putting pressure on athletic directors and coaches who honestly want to run respectable programs for women. Men’s sports like wrestling and swimming are being cut, and when they are, you know who is blamed? Title IX. Not King Football.
First point: He undercuts his own argument, or is at least very unclear about it. College football programs are limited to 85 scholarship athletes, and the fact that the author seems to think that the programs operate without this limitation makes me question the amount of research and thought that he put into his argument. The other ~20 or so kids officially on the team are "walk ons" and pay for their own tuition, meals, lodging, and other incidentals. When the football team travels further roster limitations kick in to limit the number of players who can travel. Generally this number is 85, but some conferences have stricter limitations. So, while these walk ons may make use of facilities, such as weight rooms, that are paid for from the athletic budget, we have to realize that these facilities would have been built anyway to accommodate the author's suggested limitation of 85. When the fact that there is already in place an 85 scholarship limitation is coupled with the fact that the walk ons pay for almost all of their expenses, it's hard to see what he's driving at.

Second point: Earlier you mentioned that only 22 Division 1 athletic departments made money last year. According to a recent report by the NCAA (summarized by Business Insider), 58% of the football programs were run in the black (about 59 programs), while approximately 56% of men's basketball programs operated in the black. However, only one, one, women's basketball program is self-sufficient. I'm not trying to attack women's athletics, nor am I even against the spirit of Title IX, but there is a reason why 59 football programs were self-sufficient last year while only 22 athletic departments were in the black, and football is not the answer for the majority of division 1 universities.
 

Salazar

Member
mre said:
it's hard to see upon what basis is he making is claim that college football is a financial drain to a majority of universities..

I was posting the link less in terms of that argument and more to draw in the fact that football's dominant position in college athletics (and by some testimonies, in Penn State as a whole) is a masculine one.
 

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
Salazar said:
I was posting the link less in terms of that argument and more to draw in the fact that football's dominant position in college athletics (and by some testimonies, in Penn State as a whole) is a masculine one.
I'm really not trying to be snarky or sarcastic when I say this, and I'm perfectly willing to admit that I'm being obtuse here, but so what?
 

Salazar

Member
mre said:
I'm really not trying to be snarky or sarcastic when I say this, and I'm perfectly willing to admit that I'm being obtuse here, but so what?

I don't think it's necessarily pernicious. My problem with it is probably just part of my general problem with universities having their identities tied up with heavily commercialised sports franchises. And the rhetoric that principally irritates me on this score is probably stuff that most people would disclaim as idiocy - that is, the "football is Penn State" drool. And I'll grant that there are things to admire in football that are not at all gender-specific: y'know, teamwork, discipline, and so on. But I don't think keeping a bigtime football team on campus to demonstrate, to symbolise, those general social virtues is worth it, and I think it adds to the irrelevance that the demonstration is expressly masculine in terms of participation, and predominantly masculine in terms of staffing and support.

This is becoming quite a long side-argument/arguable derail, though.
 

Salazar

Member
Kermit The Dog said:
I hope you learnt your lesson.

mre has been instructive. I retract barely any of what I've posted.

Kermit The Dog said:
Tell me, how many seasons into Glee are you?

For neither the first, nor presumably the last, time, I have no idea what you are talking about.
 

i_am_ben

running_here_and_there
Kermit The Dog said:
The deluded rarely do.

Tell me, how many seasons into Glee are you?

Its into the 3rd season now. Flynn just got rejected by a college football scout. He got pity sex out of it though.

you should totes give it a watch!
 

rCIZZLE

Member
ssolitare said:
Common man he told the higher ups, it was a decision and technically, he did do something about it.

Why punish him for not telling the police, I just don't get it.

What if he told the police and he was wrong? That would have been an issue too. Hearsay and all that jazz.

So if the higher ups do nothing about it he should take the "oh well, I have to worry about winning football games"? I'm not saying it's only him that's wrong. He was part of a massive cover up and I cringe every time I think of him fighting to keep his job in a program that enables child rapists.

Ya, you don't get it if you think that was too harsh.

What if you cover it up and it becomes 100x worse a decade down the road? ya...
 

Salazar

Member
I can't see McQueary holding together under serious questioning. I think Sandusky is just about mentally loose enough to just deny this shit to the end, though.

He'll accept showering and touching, but it's probably some perverse article of dignity with him that he doesn't accept an identity as a paedophile.
 

Alucrid

Banned
ssolitare said:
Common man he told the higher ups, it was a decision and technically, he did do something about it.

Why punish him for not telling the police, I just don't get it.

What if he told the police and he was wrong? That would have been an issue too. Hearsay and all that jazz.

It's cool that you think Joe Paterno was a 'common man' and that for the rest of your life your morals and duties will be decided by those higher up than you.
 
mre said:
Yeah, I heard segments of the interview today and it was really, really bad. I don't know if Sandusky was coached at all, but the way he took 17 seconds (timed by Collin Cowherd) to answer the question "Are you sexually attracted to young boys?" was unsettling to say the least.

I still stand by my statement that I liked the strategy in theory, but it completely failed in its application. How was Sandusky not prepared to give a quick but vigorous "no" to that answer?

mre, its even worse then you think. According to Bob Costas, the interview was supposed to be with only Sandusky's lawyer. As they were prepping for the interview, the lawyer suggested he could call Sandusky and have a telephone interview with him.

So yeah, good on Bob Costas to get the correct questions with only 10-15 minutes of prep time.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/vp/45302975#45302975
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Cyan said:
Pretty much this. Sorry Salazar, but I can't think of a single other example of a college where athletics are even a blip on the radar. Ask who the football coach is at any other school, they won't say "JoePa! For life!", they'll give you a funny look and ask what a football is.
I can't take anything you say seriously anymore.
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
99.9% of the people in a US college are NOT athletes, but they devote 50% of their identity to that.
The specificity of that stat made me curious, so I checked. At my alma mater (a Big Ten school, so it may not be typical,) 2.91% of the undergrads are athletes on official team rosters.

A friend of mine is an assistant coach at a local, small, liberal arts college (DivIII.) They recently added lacrosse, for which there's virtually no spectator demand for in the area. I asked him why they added it and I think his answer might shed some light on what Salazar is calling a dysfunction.

Basically, athletics provide more to the institution than just the revenue directly associated with sports. Indeed, I doubt you could fund the football coaching staff's salaries on just the athletics revenue at my friend's school. Sure, there is that revenue, but also each athlete's scholarship represents the tuition amount transferring from the endowment fund to the operating fund. It also acts as a recruitment tool, for example, my friend's school recruits in the Chicago area for both athletic and non-athletic students and lacrosse is popular enough there that adding a team helps them recruit, at the very least the 20 or so prospective members of the team never would have considered this school otherwise. Sports give something for the students to do, both in supporting the teams themselves and in that some facilities for official teams can be used by the general student body. Finally, the school spirit and loyalty that sports engender helps alumni relations/donations.

Think of it this way - university presidents aren't as dumb as Salazar implied, so if only 20 programs are making a profit on their athletic departments, you can bet that the other thousands of school with athletic departments have a pretty damned good reason to keep them, one that goes beyond a simplistic P/L statement. There are two small, private universities in my town, both are similar in enrollment, faculty, both are well over a hundred years old, both field 22 athletic teams, one is slightly more selective, the other has a slightly larger endowment. One is DivIII in the NCAA, the other is in the NAIA. Guess which one has a significantly higher reputation.

Also Salazar, you keep making two mistakes,

1) College sports teams are not franchises. That term applies to a particular business model used mainly by North American professional sports leagues and teams.

2) Penn State is not "Penn." Penn State is Pennsylvania State University, a public land grant university that competes in the Big Ten Conference notable for its football program. Penn is University of Pennsylvania, a separate private liberal arts university that competes in the Ivy League notable for its fencing program.
 
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