I'm not entirely sure about this, since she was definitely in attendance for the dinner party. I mean, she didn't say much and she could've just been there doing nothing the whole time, but she did come to it, so maybe she at least has a means of storing food to blend in?
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Persona Community Thread |OT4| The Golden Number
- Thread starter Dantis
- Start date
I'm not entirely sure about this, since she was definitely in attendance for the dinner party. I mean, she didn't say much and she could've just been there doing nothing the whole time, but she did come to it, so maybe she at least has a means of storing food to blend in?
She can't eat. She can however drink some liquids for cooling off.
Well, yes.
Although if we start talking a ton about the ethics of revenge killing in general, this conversation is bound to become Off Topic Discussion fodder.
Although if we start talking a ton about the ethics of revenge killing in general, this conversation is bound to become Off Topic Discussion fodder.
Aigis doesn't eat. She explicitly says as much in P4A.
Well I don't mean it in the sense that she actually would want or need to eat, but I just kinda thought her appearance at that party suggested she could at least consume if the situation required it.
Ah, well, haven't played that so I couldn't know that.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
Yeah, I'd say it is.
Nanako was in the same situation, and yet she never even once mentioned wanting to hunt down and kill her mother's murderer. No matter how you look at it, Ken was just a messed-up kid who suffered from Dunning-Krueger syndrome.
For the hate some people give P4A's story mode, I love all the little details in it.
I'm not sure what to say in order to explain why I don't find Ken's actions offensive considering what
Shinji did, accident or not. Why would I?
There's also a big difference between the two people you're comparing Scrafty.
Nanako still has a parent, was younger when her mother died IIRC, and wasn't present for the actual act of seeing some person come out of nowhere and kill her mother for no reason.
SloaneRisette
Member
Having only played FES, how so?
Probably because in FES there are character models and in Portable there aren't.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
I think that if Ken realized how stupid his desire for revenge was after Shinji apologized, then people wouldn't hate him as much. It's the fact that he believes he is entitled to kill Shinji even after everything goes down that drives him into the realm of irredeemability for most people, which isn't helped by his ungratefulness towards the person who willingly gave their life to save his.
The point is that even with how young Nanako is, she never once wished any harm on the person who murdered her mother. If both of these characters can co-exist in the same universe, then it only serves to highlight Ken's flaws.
buddha0991
Member
^Not everyone reacts to things the same way?
DR Spoilers
that scene is played out in an animated cutscene in P3FES.
and Scraf, you are being a little overdone in that.
DR Spoilers
The character in your avatar is testament to that.
that scene is played out in an animated cutscene in P3FES.
and Scraf, you are being a little overdone in that.
So now that I'm over the whole "OMG WHAT A BRAT" part of all this, let's talk about what's REALLY wrong with this picture, shall we?
P3P SPOILERS FOR SEPTEMBER AND OCTOBER
No red flags there.
P3P SPOILERS FOR SEPTEMBER AND OCTOBER
Junpei gets kidnapped, and Ikutsuki isn't even aware, despite being in the building.
Shinjiro gets shot twice, perhaps fatally, and Ikutsuki is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.
Shinjiro gets shot twice, perhaps fatally, and Ikutsuki is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.
No red flags there.
In regards to the P3 spoilers:
I'd like to point out there are some clear differences in the situation regarding Ken and Nanako, and making a comparison is not terribly fair. Nanako is way younger too then Ken was. The DunningKruger effect is totally in play for Ken too, as he's shown overestimating his general competence level because of his (believed) maturity. Not just regarding Shinjiro. This is a pretty big plot point in one of the P3P Drama CDs even.
Green Mamba
Member
Ken:
Does him being angry at not being able to get revenge come up after the scene where Shinji dies, or is it just there? Because I don't necessarily think it's fair to hold it against him if it was a spur of the moment thing after Shinji just died.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
Maybe so, but the point I always get hung up on is that Ken still acts ungrateful and entitled even after Shinji sacrifices himself, which in my mind shows that the former has no concept of the value of life and believed that committing the same crime that caused him so much grief was literally the only way his situation could be resolved, which is a pretty narrow-minded and selfish way of thinking. I get that he's an emotionally-damaged kid, but the reason I compare him to Nanako is that they're both messed-up kids from broken homes, but one of them was able to rise above their issues despite being arguably more vulnerable to them.
Overdone in what?
AquaWateria
Member
I understand what your saying but theirs a difference between Nanako and Ken, in that Ken was right in the middle of his mothers death unlike Nanako which can change a persons view and personality. Think about it look at Makoto why do you think he doesn't give a shit about anything, it's because he saw the deaths of his parents which can be the same reason why Ken acts the way he does. And also terrible things can affect people in different amount of ways.
Blanket P3 and P4 character spoilers follow(Ken and Nanako):
I've also said this in the past, but I still don't like Ken as a character, but it's mainly not his fault, it's the game's. The biggest problem ever with Ken is there's no real redemption after this, nor is there any chance to talk to him after this. Honestly, (P3 AFTER OCTOBER SPOILERS)
It's also flat out impossible to compare Ken and Nanako since what happened with Ken happened RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM. Nanako is still probably at the age where she knows her mom is dead, but not that she was killed. I'll also give more of a benefit of the doubt to Ken simply because this happened during the Dark Hour, and it was probably the first time him and his mother experienced it, so that certainly adds to the trauma.
I've also said this in the past, but I still don't like Ken as a character, but it's mainly not his fault, it's the game's. The biggest problem ever with Ken is there's no real redemption after this, nor is there any chance to talk to him after this. Honestly, (P3 AFTER OCTOBER SPOILERS)
even his social link would have been faaaaaaaar better served if it was like Mitsuru's where it didn't activate until after her Persona changes. You don't find out much about his motivations and thoughts in his social link, it's kind of shit, to be blunt. Now if that social link had happened after Shinji's death, and dealt with not only his past but him coming to grips with what Shinji did as a whole, then it could have been the best social link EVER, and really made Ken as good of a character as Yukari or Junpei became. But nope.
Red The Hunter
Member
I knew Shinji was up to something.I was going to say it's because she's trying to disguise herself as a human but she's all PEW PEW PEWing.
I wouldn't be surprised if Rise actually did that.
Koromaru, haha. Funny thing is I had dream a few nights ago that I was Koromaru going to school with the rest of the P3 crew.
buddha0991
Member
did you have toast in your mouth?
It actually happens
before Shinji is shot the first time, I was wrong on that.
So having seen the scene twice now in rapid succession, here are my closing, honest and hopefully fair thoughts on what goes down on October 4th, in P3P
First, we'll talk Ken. And we'll talk bad first, because that's how I like to do things. I'm not a big fan of the young kid angry at the bruiser who killed his mama act because FF13 burned that into my soul. That said, the bad things Ken does during this are first off, "since then it's been one bad thing after another." I'd put that more on the writer's shoulders, though. What other bad stuff has happened to Ken since his mother died? We're not told at all, so it comes across as petty, especially since every single character in the game has a cross they're bearing. It's childish, but Ken IS a child after all. After that, Ken complains because he won't be able to exact his revenge on Shinji if he dies naturally. This is, I think, the one line I really found incensing. It's just really awful and without much justification. It's probably worse than anything any villain in the game so far has said. Lastly, after Shinji's been shot, Ken complains that without his mother and his revenge, he's got no reason to live. This sort of line makes sense when someone's spent their whole life chasing revenge, but again, because Ken's so under-developed as a character prior to this night, it falls sort of flat. Which is, I think, the ultimate problem with Ken during all of this: he's an underdeveloped character whose desire for revenge is not brought up in any significant measure, and only sort of hinted at, UNTIL this moment, at which point his childish, petty behavior comes to define him, leaving clear the reason why his character should garner so much scorn (though I really don't know how popular Shinji could've been without FeMC's Slinks, since his character doesn't get a lot of development prior to this point either.
So good things Ken does during this that deserve comments: First of all, I don't really think Ken was going to be able to go through with it. What he needed was a confrontation with Shinjiro so he could get, not revenge, but closure. And I think that, had Shadow Jesus not interfered at that exact moment, Shinjiro would've probably been able to talk Ken down. How Ken reacts from this point on I'm not sure, because I haven't played it yet, but I can see how that whirlwind of emotions is going to fuck Ken up and if he feels at all guilty over what's happened, I'll let him off. I think you can kind of tell that Ken doesn't really harbor so intense a hatred for Shinjiro when he tells Shadow Jesus that he, not Fuuka, is the Persona user who can sense Shadow locations. While this is ostensibly sticking up for Fuuka, not Shinji, it can be taken as him doing it in an attempt to stop Shadow Jesus from kicking Shinji in the ribs any more.
The problem, as I see it, is really that until this point Ken has been a non-character. He's kept to himself, had no outstanding characterization, and you only got to go to the movies with him. How I view him will really hinge heavily upon how he behaves moving forward from this point. Hopefully the writers will realize the symmetry of the situation and allow Ken to realize how it parallels what happened to his mom, permitting some growth for him.
Moving along from Ken to the Dead or Not Dead moments, I actually kind of prefer the FeMC version of this (surprise surprise, huh?) Now, I'm not saying that Makoto's experience wasn't good, since Akihiko's breakdown and Junpei's anger at the funeral were hands down the best original P3 content so far, but I think because I took the time to get this SLink developed and fleshed out it really made the hit almost harder. It's sort of like what happens to Nanako in P4, in that being close to the character makes the hurt that much greater to the player.
I really like the decision to give Akihiko Cesar as his new Persona. Not just because I think that Cesar is a much better design, but because I think that Julius Cesar is a pretty great sort of archetype for Akihiko. I'm sure much discussion and established symbolic interpretations have been given for why Akihiko's persona becomes Cesar, but if you'll permit me to add my chips to the pile, the fact that Cesar was a man who sought power and acquired power on an enormous scale, but for whom all that power was ultimately no help, and that the "loss" of his nearest friend was of great sorrow to him was tied to his acquisition of power reflects a great deal how Akihiko's acquisition of power ultimately failed to help him prevent the loss of the one last person truly close to him.
I kinda prefer the happier "Maybe some day Shinji gets better" version of all this, cuz, and I realize that this is tantamount to eating crow, it really is kinda dark having Shinjiro die like that. That said, I don't think I would actually be admitting this if not for the Social Links. The Social Links reveal that in spite of his gruff demeanor, scrubby appearance and apparent drug addiction, Shinji was actually a nice guy who liked to cook, take care of his friends, especially Akihiko, and who felt immensely responsible for what happened to Ken's mom. Without those links Shinji feels guilty about Ken's mom but like, not in nearly as specific a sense and not in a way that the player would really give a darn, I think.
And while I brought this up already, the fact that Ikutsuki was absent while a member of his team was kidnapped and another one shot (nearly fatally, since I'm gonna go with that for my joint-canon), is a HUGE red flag. I assume we'll find out very shortly what his deal is because no way are they gonna cast suspicion like that and then ignore it.
So good things Ken does during this that deserve comments: First of all, I don't really think Ken was going to be able to go through with it. What he needed was a confrontation with Shinjiro so he could get, not revenge, but closure. And I think that, had Shadow Jesus not interfered at that exact moment, Shinjiro would've probably been able to talk Ken down. How Ken reacts from this point on I'm not sure, because I haven't played it yet, but I can see how that whirlwind of emotions is going to fuck Ken up and if he feels at all guilty over what's happened, I'll let him off. I think you can kind of tell that Ken doesn't really harbor so intense a hatred for Shinjiro when he tells Shadow Jesus that he, not Fuuka, is the Persona user who can sense Shadow locations. While this is ostensibly sticking up for Fuuka, not Shinji, it can be taken as him doing it in an attempt to stop Shadow Jesus from kicking Shinji in the ribs any more.
The problem, as I see it, is really that until this point Ken has been a non-character. He's kept to himself, had no outstanding characterization, and you only got to go to the movies with him. How I view him will really hinge heavily upon how he behaves moving forward from this point. Hopefully the writers will realize the symmetry of the situation and allow Ken to realize how it parallels what happened to his mom, permitting some growth for him.
Moving along from Ken to the Dead or Not Dead moments, I actually kind of prefer the FeMC version of this (surprise surprise, huh?) Now, I'm not saying that Makoto's experience wasn't good, since Akihiko's breakdown and Junpei's anger at the funeral were hands down the best original P3 content so far, but I think because I took the time to get this SLink developed and fleshed out it really made the hit almost harder. It's sort of like what happens to Nanako in P4, in that being close to the character makes the hurt that much greater to the player.
I really like the decision to give Akihiko Cesar as his new Persona. Not just because I think that Cesar is a much better design, but because I think that Julius Cesar is a pretty great sort of archetype for Akihiko. I'm sure much discussion and established symbolic interpretations have been given for why Akihiko's persona becomes Cesar, but if you'll permit me to add my chips to the pile, the fact that Cesar was a man who sought power and acquired power on an enormous scale, but for whom all that power was ultimately no help, and that the "loss" of his nearest friend was of great sorrow to him was tied to his acquisition of power reflects a great deal how Akihiko's acquisition of power ultimately failed to help him prevent the loss of the one last person truly close to him.
I kinda prefer the happier "Maybe some day Shinji gets better" version of all this, cuz, and I realize that this is tantamount to eating crow, it really is kinda dark having Shinjiro die like that. That said, I don't think I would actually be admitting this if not for the Social Links. The Social Links reveal that in spite of his gruff demeanor, scrubby appearance and apparent drug addiction, Shinji was actually a nice guy who liked to cook, take care of his friends, especially Akihiko, and who felt immensely responsible for what happened to Ken's mom. Without those links Shinji feels guilty about Ken's mom but like, not in nearly as specific a sense and not in a way that the player would really give a darn, I think.
And while I brought this up already, the fact that Ikutsuki was absent while a member of his team was kidnapped and another one shot (nearly fatally, since I'm gonna go with that for my joint-canon), is a HUGE red flag. I assume we'll find out very shortly what his deal is because no way are they gonna cast suspicion like that and then ignore it.
AquaWateria
Member
You know if they do make a definite version of Persona 3 they should definitely add upon that and in the Persona 3 movie I hope they also add character development to Ken where he can get redemption.
Twilightzoney
Member
If they do make a better version of Persona 3 I hope they add in more stuff from the Drama CD this time as well. Since some stuff got added in FES right? Would love to see some other stuff be put into it.
Red The Hunter
Member
No, but I had Fukka and Yukari scratching me behind the ears.
Best girl that will be infinitely helped when they release a definitive version of P3 with Fuuka's P4A voice actress.
buddha0991
Member
I didn't know about this until now even though I played P3P twice and FES once :O
But then, I got a feeling Ken felt that way when I watched The Answer.
Black boxes as I can see everywhere on this page; October is where things really get interesting in P3.
I can't wait for Corvo's reactions for the rest of the game.
Upupupu~
CrazyTank940
Member
Yeah thats literally my only problem with her, and thankfully the recasting in Arena doesn't sound as robotic.
Green Mamba
Member
I'm pretty sure Toriumi is the best girl, let's be serious.
She's Time-skip Yukari, so yes.
(Note: This is a joke, she is not really Yukari from an alternate timeline, she just looks so much like an older version of Yukari that it's fun to joke about)
Isn't she just grown up Yukari, though?
January is the last month, then it skips to March.
shes not even in this one, but still best girl
That's not Lisa.
No, she isn't.
SloaneRisette
Member
shes not even in this one, but still best girl
Worse than dead, waifu'd.
In hair only
Another excellent read dude. I always say this, but I can't stress how much I love reading your thoughts on the game.
Though I want to clarify something. Ken bitching about not getting to kill Shinji wasn't due to him being petty. It's not directly stated in the game, but it's because he has an obsessive and sadistic nature*. In fact, he had resolved to kill himself after killing Shinji (which he was going to go through with it, without question). After his Mom died, he completely modeled his entire identity behind revenge. He was willing to do whatever it took to accomplish his goal, which meant he constantly put on a "fake" Persona of innocence. It's ironic that a Hama user had such dark tendencies, but it is what it is.You're right, it's a damn shame he didn't get any development prior to the big season, because it would have made him a much more compelling character. It's unfortunate that we have to turn to the databook to shed some light on his character.
I completely agreeing with you on FeMC's path being vital for Shinji's development. I don't think I would have cared about him at all if I hadn't experienced his S.link, which arguably the best social link in P3.
*All of this is from the databook btw.
I completely agreeing with you on FeMC's path being vital for Shinji's development. I don't think I would have cared about him at all if I hadn't experienced his S.link, which arguably the best social link in P3.
*All of this is from the databook btw.
They're Persona's best couple that never happened.
Red The Hunter
Member
shes not even in this one, but still best girl
Persona 2 IS and EP spoilers,
I liked their relationship through both games. And felt very heartbroken by the fact that Maya and Tatsuya couldn't be together in the end and he had to return to other side, with the Tatsuya of this side taking over and remembering nothing of what had happened on either side. A very bittersweet ending, yes, but a very good one.
SloaneRisette
Member
Brutus!
brutus the elder was a political enemy. brutus the younger was always his mother's son moreso than any friend of caeser's.
Secretly Ms. Toriumi is Yukari's mom. That's why they don't get on well in classes.
I actually wouldn't mind the suggestion that Ken and Koro's elemental affinities are meant to be ironic in that sense. As to
Ken being a sociopath or whatever the correct term is, I suppose I hadn't thought of it that way, although really, it's hard to get a read on the kid at this point in the game.
Shinji, though, man that SLink was great. Probably because they knew what they were going for. Certainly the best party member SLink so far, though it's hard to top an SLink the writers are obviously gearing toward toying with your emotions in. Still, they did a great job on that one.
Shinji, though, man that SLink was great. Probably because they knew what they were going for. Certainly the best party member SLink so far, though it's hard to top an SLink the writers are obviously gearing toward toying with your emotions in. Still, they did a great job on that one.
Brutus. Even if it isn't historically accurate, the play has made Cesar's "loss" of Brutus one of the most famous aspects of his story. It's as famous as Jesus' "loss" of Judas. Even if Brutus and Cesar were not actually close, Cesar's cry "Et tu, Brute?" makes it sound that way.