My problem with the themes in both games is not that they don't necessarily delve deep enough into the subject matter, but more because they're too ham-fisted, though that seems to be common with Japanese games.
(P3 spoilers)
Junpei and Chidori however were definitely handled well and are one of the exceptions IMO, and I especially like how they adapted their relationship in the Falling Down movie.
It's not that P4 didn't go deep enough, but rather that it went only where it was convenient. It tries to do the whole self-acceptance thing while never leaving the comfort of Japanese cultural stereotypes, resulting in really mixed signals and a message that essentially has fuck-all to say.
You have characters like Hanako. She's fat, thus she's ugly, thus she's rude, thus she's a punchline. Kashiwagi is an older woman who likes more revealing clothing, thus she's desperate, thus she's a bitch, thus she's a punchline. They're not attractive skinny teenagers, youth and skinniness being the stereotypical Japanese standard for beauty, so they were never going to get the chance to be anything other than jokes. The writing itself is judging them based on their appearances, something... the game tells us not to do. Curious, that. Hanako and Kashiwagi are both thoroughly unpleasant people, yes, but only because you'd expect them to be from looking at them.
Then there's the casual homophobia, which isn't too bad in the vanilla game, but it shouldn't be there in the first place. It's worse in Golden and distractingly awful in the 2011 anime. I thank the heavens there are no actual gay characters to make a joke out of in P4, because I first played it during a very sensitive time in my life. Would not have coped by any means.
I fucking hate Yosuke. Teddie isn't great, either.
Whoops, accidentally started ranting about P4 again. I still love this game, though. Unashamed to say that both it and P3 left me sobbing.
That's all true, I agree with that. I should also add that even if you ignore the message P4 tells, those jokes simply weren't funny. The camping trip is my least favorite scene in the game precisely for that reason.
I guess I just try to look at the game without focusing on too many of the details. Neither P3 nor P4 are flawless, but it's their many positives that offset their flaws for me.
Both messages resonated with me even if there were parts in the game where they fumbled with those. I think of those scenes you mentioned as "mandatory and cliched anime scenes that we've seen many times before" that they felt the need to include because they thought they were funny and I look past them when I think of the games as a whole.
It's not that P4 didn't go deep enough, but rather that it went only where it was convenient. It tries to do the whole self-acceptance thing while never leaving the comfort of Japanese cultural stereotypes, resulting in really mixed signals and a message that essentially has fuck-all to say.
You have characters like Hanako. She's fat, thus she's ugly, thus she's rude, thus she's a punchline. Kashiwagi is an older woman who likes more revealing clothing, thus she's desperate, thus she's a bitch, thus she's a punchline. They're not attractive skinny teenagers, youth and skinniness being the stereotypical Japanese standard for beauty, so they were never going to get the chance to be anything other than jokes. The writing itself is judging them based on their appearances, something... the game tells us not to do. Curious, that. Hanako and Kashiwagi are both thoroughly unpleasant people, yes, but only because you'd expect them to be from looking at them.
Then there's the casual homophobia, which isn't too bad in the vanilla game, but it shouldn't be there in the first place. It's worse in Golden and distractingly awful in the 2011 anime. I thank the heavens there are no actual gay characters to make a joke out of in P4, because I first played it during a very sensitive time in my life. Would not have coped by any means.
I fucking hate Yosuke. Teddie isn't great, either.
Whoops, accidentally started ranting about P4 again. I still love this game, though. Unashamed to say that both it and P3 left me sobbing.
I love P4, yet I can't disagree with any of this. I loathe the camping trip and the entire Culture Week bit. They're supposed to be funny, but I can't find them anything other than disappointing for a host of reasons.
You have characters like Hanako. She's fat, thus she's ugly, thus she's rude, thus she's a punchline. Kashiwagi is an older woman who likes more revealing clothing, thus she's desperate, thus she's a bitch, thus she's a punchline. They're not attractive skinny teenagers, youth and skinniness being the stereotypical Japanese standard for beauty, so they were never going to get the chance to be anything other than jokes. The writing itself is judging them based on their appearances, something... the game tells us not to do. Curious, that. Hanako and Kashiwagi are both thoroughly unpleasant people, yes, but only because you'd expect them to be from looking at them.
It says something that even the anime felt it needed to add in a sympathetic scene for them...
And yeah. A big problem with Yosuke's comments is that they often felt like you were supposed to be laughing along with him with even Yu adding in a comment in the anime. In comparsion, most (if not all) of Junpei's unfortunate comments seem like they're meant to be taken badly to highlight his immaturity that he deals with over the course of the game.
And yeah. A big problem with Yosuke's comments is that they often felt like you were supposed to be laughing along with him with even Yu adding in a comment in the anime. In comparsion, most (if not all) of Junpei's unfortunate comments seem like they're meant to be taken badly to highlight his immaturity that he deals with over the course of the game.
This is why the seemingly endless comparisons between Junpei and Yosuke work only on a superficial level. Junpei matures and learns from his mistakes, whereas Yosuke's just a self-important asshole the whole way through. Most of his really glaring flaws are never explored or even addressed but we're still supposed to find him sympathetic and endearing. This is most likely another cultural thing since his character type is really common in Japanese games and anime and such, so the shit he pulls is expected and therefore okay. Me and Yosuke would definitely not be friends in real life and he wishes he could be like Junpei.
Them actually having Yu not only not challenge his views but rather join him in the anime almost made me drop the show right then and there. I almost felt straight up betrayed, this coming after the Kanji arc left me feeling lowkey offended. Rise thankfully came in immediately after and saved everything. <3
It's not that P4 didn't go deep enough, but rather that it went only where it was convenient. It tries to do the whole self-acceptance thing while never leaving the comfort of Japanese cultural stereotypes, resulting in really mixed signals and a message that essentially has fuck-all to say.
You have characters like Hanako. She's fat, thus she's ugly, thus she's rude, thus she's a punchline. Kashiwagi is an older woman who likes more revealing clothing, thus she's desperate, thus she's a bitch, thus she's a punchline. They're not attractive skinny teenagers, youth and skinniness being the stereotypical Japanese standard for beauty, so they were never going to get the chance to be anything other than jokes. The writing itself is judging them based on their appearances, something... the game tells us not to do. Curious, that. Hanako and Kashiwagi are both thoroughly unpleasant people, yes, but only because you'd expect them to be from looking at them.
Definitely agree with you on Hanako and Kashiwagi. What absolute wastes to make them completely shallow joke characters. They never really sat well with me, Hanako more so because she felt more genuinely mean spirited. Even King Moron got a little bit of dimension to him in some incidental dialogue. Something would have been better than nothing.
As much as I love P4, I will say that the Kanji stuff is really not handled all that well and is actually somewhat misleading. I remember seeing a lot of positive stuff about his internal conflict when it came out, but... I'm not sure it really deserves the praise.
Kanji is pretty clearly not gay, and the game even paints his dungeon as one giant gay stereotype as if to say that being gay would be the worst thing imaginable for Kanji. His actual social link is better written, but it has nothing to do with his sexuality at all, instead focusing on gender stereotypes. The ulterior implications of his main arc are murky at best. The idea that he's afraid that the feminine stereotypes he belongs to paints him as gay is not actually a great way to deliver that message.
I still hold it was progressive for 08. (I also hold that, death of the author being what it was, a lot of people really aggressively reclaimed P4 for their own perspectives, which was great)
that said, I really hope they've improved their writing in that department for p5
I still hold it was progressive for 08. (I also hold that, death of the author being what it was, a lot of people really aggressively reclaimed P4 for their own perspectives, which was great)
that said, I really hope they've improved their writing in that department for p5
It all depends on how they portray the "aggressors". I think that if there's going to be any issues with the way P5 is written, it's going to be in the people that our protagonists choose to "steal" from.
Anyway, best social link is probably Saki's brother.
As much as I love P4, I will say that the Kanji stuff is really not handled all that well and is actually somewhat misleading. I remember seeing a lot of positive stuff about his internal conflict when it came out, but... I'm not sure it really deserves the praise.
Kanji is pretty clearly not gay, and the game even paints his dungeon as one giant gay stereotype. I do like what it's saying in that you can't really pigeonhole someone's personality because of their hobbies... but the ulterior implications are murky at best.
I agree as well, though I also think their is some blame to put on the people reporting and harping on Kanji as a great example of gay representation when it's never confirmed (in fact, aside from the dungeon, he's only ever shown interested in Naoto both before and after her gender is revealed). People, who I wonder if played the game, like to treat his arc as gay acceptance when it's about him overcoming toxic masculine stereotypes about what it is to be a man.
To a point, I feel like you could basically plaster Kanji's head here instead of Bart:
That said, I don't how people get Naoto as trans at all when Yukiko straight up asks about it not really being about her being an adult or a guy, and she confirms it.
I can definitely appreciate that they at least sort of attempted to touch on gender issues with Kanji and Naoto but the way they were handled was... less than ideal, and the implications in both of their stories were rather unfortunate.
I agree as well, though I also think their is some blame to put on the people reporting and harping on Kanji as a great example of gay representation when it's never confirmed (in fact, aside from the dungeon, he's only ever shown interested in Naoto both before and after her gender is revealed). People, who I wonder if played the game, like to treat his arc as gay acceptance when it's about him overcoming toxic masculine stereotypes about what it is to be a man.
That said, I don't how people get Naoto as trans at all when Yukiko straight up asks about it not really being about her being an adult or a guy, and she confirms it.
To add to him Kanji only showing interest in women, he does get kind of creepily (not to mention uncharacteristically) interested in where Yukiko bathes at one point.
As for both him and Naoto, I'd say it's just other people's thirst for representation gone horribly wrong.
"They're like shipwrecked men turning to seawater, from uncontrollable thirst."
Also, to be more blunt, I'd say it's actually REALLY bad to use Kanji as an example of gay representation because every time homosexuality is combined with his character in a scene, it's basically treated as a joke including his own dungeon where the real problem is him not accepting that he has feminine hobbies and traits. The only case it may not be is his initial interest in Naoto.....who turns out to be female.
I get why it initially resonated with people. You have all this shockingly homosexual imagery and a character questioning why he likes a dude leading up to a moment where he openly accepts his over the top gay sterotype shadow.
But after that, it's clear the motive is gender, not sexuality, which retroactively makes all the gay stuff a punchline.
It's sad because I genuinely like his character and his social link.
All this talk about gender and sexual identity reminds me that I would like to see a genuine attempt at a transgender character. I know Catherine touched on the subject, but it still had unfortunate implications in how they handled it. So seeing a future Persona game tackle it with the utmost respect would be pretty cool.
Not exactly on the same topic, but out of curiosity, is there anything everyone is worried about in regards to the content in Persona 5?
I'd say at the moment, the minigames worry me a bit. I personally love minigames in games myself thinking it even sucks that there aren't as many these days as there used to be back in the SNES or PS1 days, but I can still see them becoming boring or repetitive if it's how you have to boost your stats. I also kinda hope courage isn't a stat again since it never made sense to me how you can be scared to go to a temple at night, but not scared to go into an actual den of monsters.
All this talk about gender and sexual identity reminds me that I would like to see a genuine attempt at a transgender character. I know Catherine touched on the subject, but it still had unfortunate implications in how they handled it. So seeing a future Persona game tackle it with the utmost respect would be pretty cool.
Yeah. Erika definitely had problems with the way characters acted toward her (though at least from a character-perspective, some of it can be seen as the guys and her being friends for at least 15 years or so, so they can roast each other without it becoming too bad as well as giving back what they get.), but it still showed they could make a trans character without her being an offensive stereotype.
Japan isn't exactly renowned for its progressive stance on LGBT matters, I think the point is. A Japanese game could totally have positive gay or trans characters, but it's unlikely. Especially coming from Atlus. P2IS alone does not make up for decades of honestly really toxic stereotyping.
It's not that P4 didn't go deep enough, but rather that it went only where it was convenient. It tries to do the whole self-acceptance thing while never leaving the comfort of Japanese cultural stereotypes, resulting in really mixed signals and a message that essentially has fuck-all to say.
You have characters like Hanako. She's fat, thus she's ugly, thus she's rude, thus she's a punchline. Kashiwagi is an older woman who likes more revealing clothing, thus she's desperate, thus she's a bitch, thus she's a punchline. They're not attractive skinny teenagers, youth and skinniness being the stereotypical Japanese standard for beauty, so they were never going to get the chance to be anything other than jokes. The writing itself is judging them based on their appearances, something... the game tells us not to do. Curious, that. Hanako and Kashiwagi are both thoroughly unpleasant people, yes, but only because you'd expect them to be from looking at them.
I think that order is wrong. You are supposed to judge Kashiwagi and Hanako and laugh at them, but it's more like their character gave them their appearance than the other way around.
The game's main theme is the idea of truth and acceptance of it. Kashiwagi isn't treated like a joke because she's old. She's treated like a joke because she is someone who doesn't accept the truth of her own age. For Hanako, it's delusions about her gluttony and her resulting appearance.
As for people desiring the stereotypical Japanese standard for beauty, that's why Yukiko's a character.
This countdown - takes us round and round!
This labyrinth of hype,
You can't tell up from down...
Havin' so much fun...
We forget to check where this emancipation 's takin' us,
But hey, here we come!
This countdown - spins us round so much!
Sometimes you don't know should...
You stay watching it or get off?
It's only just begun...
Welcome to this wild Maze of Hype!
i agree with you all about the jokes about homosexuality, they treat like its a bad thing and do jokes about that in a pejorative way.
The game is about acceptance and friendship if kanji was truly gay, its kinda like they don't truly accept him
junpei, i didnt like him at first, but i remembered they are a bunch of teens its normal to behave like that in that age
i'm playing Femc persona 3 right now, and i gotta say, femc is the best Mc and it's a very refreshing perspective, would be nice to play in persona 5 with a female in a newgame plus mode
As much as I love P4, I will say that the Kanji stuff is really not handled all that well and is actually somewhat misleading. I remember seeing a lot of positive stuff about his internal conflict when it came out, but... I'm not sure it really deserves the praise.
Kanji is pretty clearly not gay, and the game even paints his dungeon as one giant gay stereotype as if to say that being gay would be the worst thing imaginable for Kanji. His actual social link is better written, but it has nothing to do with his sexuality at all, instead focusing on gender stereotypes. The ulterior implications of his main arc are murky at best. The idea that he's afraid that the feminine stereotypes he belongs to paints him as gay is not actually a great way to deliver that message.
To be honest, I know some people who feel that way or at least felt that way when they were in Kanji's age and the reasoning behind the dungeon's appearance makes perfect sense to me since the game is set in Japan, after all. I know how divisive Yosuke is, but I can appreciate the character in P4 despite his homophobia: It's definitely not tasteful, but it sort of reflects the experiences I made in my own life.
Personally, I would love to see them tackling LGBT issues properly though. I'm just not sure if Persona is the right series to do that. Persona is a very Japanese series and approaching the games from a Western perspective is bound to distort your impressions. It's kind of frustrating, really.
I'd imagine P3 could be a literally life changing game for someone who plays it in their teens, especially if theyve been having a rough time. Which is another reason why I like it better than P4. P4 just wasn't as existentially and psychologically sastisfying, which is strange considering on the surface P4 is a much more psychological game given the nature of shadows therein, and whatnot..
See, this is interesting to me, cus I played both Persona 4 and 3 for the first time at the age of 19, and 4 resonated with me much more strongly than 3 did. I think because both games have the same time system you get more out of whichever you play first; but 3's whole memento mori therefore carpe diem angle wasn't as interesting to me as 4's themes of searching for the real truth behind people's behaviour and so on. Also, I grew up in what was basically British Inaba, so that might have had an effect too.
See, this is interesting to me, cus I played both Persona 4 and 3 for the first time at the age of 19, and 4 resonated with me much more strongly than 3 did. I think because both games have the same time system you get more out of whichever you play first; but 3's whole memento mori therefore carpe diem angle wasn't as interesting to me as 4's themes of searching for the real truth behind people's behaviour and so on. Also, I grew up in what was basically British Inaba, so that might have had an effect too.
The ever growing list of Atlus games announced and/or released since Persona 5's announcement:
Persona Q
Persona 4 Ultimax
Persona 4 Dancing
Etrian Mystery Dungeon
Etrian 2 Untold
Devil Survivor 2 Record Breaker
Genei Ibun Roku ♯FE
Shin Megami Tensei IV Final
Odin Sphere
Aegis Rim
Etrian Odyssey V
All this talk about gender and sexual identity reminds me that I would like to see a genuine attempt at a transgender character. I know Catherine touched on the subject, but it still had unfortunate implications in how they handled it. So seeing a future Persona game tackle it with the utmost respect would be pretty cool.
I actually think they handled it great, and entirely realistically. Even though the guys would tease him about hooking up with her, they were still clearly good friends with her and had no problem with her gender/sex. It was just the natural, playful teasing of friends which I find to be totally okay.
