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[Cannon_Fodder]

I've been reading Arsene Lupin lately, and that's got me thinking about honorifics. I've never seen complaints about using words like "monsieur" in English translations of French texts, so why is using the Japanese equivalent different?

 

[StarSketch]

I've been reading Arsene Lupin lately, and that's got me thinking about honorifics. I've never seen complaints about using words like "monsieur" in English translations of French texts, so why is using the Japanese equivalent different?

More English speakers are liable to know that Monsieur = Mr.

Case in point- I misspelled Monsieur and it came up in my spell check.

also -san isn't a direct equal to Mr/Mrs?

 

[The n00b Avenger]

A lot of the hate honorifics get is cause they're seen as lazy. How do I portray this in English? Eh, whatever, I'll just keep the honorifics in and not have to worry about dealing with it. It's not English and it doesn't belong in an English translation.

Although I haven't played it in English, from what bit I've seen the honorifics in the Persona translations aren't just lazy 'left overs' from the Japanese script but more so a conscious addition to try to thicken the Japanese atmosphere of the setting. I mean, you have instances like Yukaricchi where the translators basically comprehended the fact that such a nickname may be hard to understand for English speakers so instead of leaving it as is, which would be the 'lazy' thing to do, they decided to change it to Yukatan because tan is a relatively popular and more well-known honorific amongst the more core English audience. When you have them putting in honorifics that didn't even exist in the original, that shows a pretty clear and obvious intention that it's not so much laziness but an intentional style to appeal to what English speakers might think of when they see this type of "anime game".

It's definitely unorthodox and a bit strange and I don't necessarily agree with it, but I don't think it should be lumped together with other translations that probably leave them in just because "eh whatever our audience probably knows them." Like, if you see them in a setting that's not even Japanese, you have a problem.

(This is assuming Yukaricchi isn't also used in the translation. I haven't played it so I can't say for sure, but I was under the impression that Yukatan is used instead in basically all instances)

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

More English speakers are liable to know that Monsieur = Mr.

Case in point- I misspelled Monsieur and it came up in my spell check.

also -san isn't a direct equal to Mr/Mrs?

Even if they're more familiar with monsieur, translators don't have to use that word. They choose to because it helps the feeling of the story, right?

And yeah, -san is not directly equivalent in meaning, but it serves the same purpose in speech.

 

[PK Gaming]

A lot of the hate honorifics get is cause they're seen as lazy. How do I portray this in English? Eh, whatever, I'll just keep the honorifics in and not have to worry about dealing with it. It's not English and it doesn't belong in an English translation.

Although I haven't played it in English, from what bit I've seen the honorifics in the Persona translations aren't just lazy 'left overs' from the Japanese script but more so a conscious addition to try to thicken the Japanese atmosphere of the setting. I mean, you have instances like Yukaricchi where the translators basically comprehended the fact that such a nickname may be hard to understand for English speakers so instead of leaving it as is, which would be the 'lazy' thing to do, they decided to change it to Yukatan because tan is a relatively popular and more well-known honorific amongst the more core English audience. When you have them putting in honorifics that didn't even exist in the original, that shows a pretty clear and obvious intention that it's not so much laziness but an intentional style to appeal to what English speakers might think of when they see this type of "anime game".

It's definitely unorthodox and a bit strange and I don't necessarily agree with it, but I don't think it should be lumped together with other translations that probably leave them in just because "eh whatever our audience probably knows them"

(This is assuming Yukaricchi isn't also used in the translation. I haven't played it so I can't say for sure, but I was under the impression that Yukatan is used instead in basically all instances)

This in its entirety.

 

[_Ryo_]

More English speakers are liable to know that Monsieur = Mr.

Case in point- I misspelled Monsieur and it came up in my spell check.

also -san isn't a direct equal to Mr/Mrs?

Kiiindabut not really? Nothing's ever really that direct when translating Japaneseto English. Context matters a lot.

For example, You can use chan for a guy friend or anyone you are really familiar with without meaning for it to be offensive but I think if you call a lot of guys Miss/Mrs/missy in English they will take offense.

Girls can use the pronoun Boku (I, Me) to sound more direct/maculine
And men can use atashi to sound more soft/feminine

Anyway, It is my opinion that you lose a lot of atmosphere and nuances when you remove the honorifics.

 

[Strimei]

I can understand the dislike of honorifics, but I don't mind them myself (though, I'll admit, there are times now and again where a part of me feels how weird it is to hear -kun/chan/etc being said in english).

 

[daevious]

(This is assuming Yukaricchi isn't also used in the translation. I haven't played it so I can't say for sure, but I was under the impression that Yukatan is used instead in basically all instances)

You would be correct. Although Yuka-tan is still really awkward in the English version because for every other instance involving nicknames that don't rely on honorifics.

For Chidori they have Junpei nickname her "Chidorita" instead and in P4, Rise-cchi is replaced with "Risette" instead. Yuka-tan feels like a holdover from an earlier draft of the translation that they never went back and corrected, but that could just be me.

 

[_Ryo_]

I think itd help if people just thought of the English as Japanese because well that's what they're speaking in universe, its just we on the other side of the screen have something similar to the transliteration device from Dr Who's TARDIS.

 

[The n00b Avenger]

You would be correct. Although Yuka-tan is still really awkward in the English version because for every other instance involving nicknames that don't rely on honorifics.

For Chidori they have Junpei nickname her "Chidorita" instead and in P4, Rise-cchi is replaced with "Risette" instead. Yuka-tan feels like a holdover from an earlier draft of the translation that they never went back and corrected, but that could just be me.

Huh, really.

That's stranger than I thought. Guess it could also be multiple translators that were never fully edited into consistency.

 

[StarSketch]

I think itd help if people just thought of the English as Japanese because well that's what they're speaking in universe, its just we on the other side of the screen have something similar to the transliteration device from Dr Who's TARDIS.

Right

It gets kinda weird when you have lines that are like "This thing is X in English, so it means (japanese word)" though.

 

[Reanimatoin]

Right

It gets kinda weird when you have lines that are like "This thing is X in English, so it means (japanese word)" though.

The most jarring line in that ilk is when Rise says "Why do I need to learn English? I can just hire a translator."

Kinda weird hearing that.....you know..... in English.

 

[Zolo]

The most jarring line in that ilk is when Rise says "Why do I need to learn English? I can just hire a translator."

Kinda weird hearing that.....you know..... in English.

That's when you have to just accept that what you're reading is Japanese characters who naturally speak Japanese are speaking Japanese that you just read a Japanese translation of. Persona 2 had this kinda big with many people assuming Lisa can speak English because she's ethnically American.

The characters are Japanese, so they're obviously not actually speaking English.

 

[cj_iwakura]

A lot of the hate honorifics get is cause they're seen as lazy. How do I portray this in English? Eh, whatever, I'll just keep the honorifics in and not have to worry about dealing with it. It's not English and it doesn't belong in an English translation.

Although I haven't played it in English, from what bit I've seen the honorifics in the Persona translations aren't just lazy 'left overs' from the Japanese script but more so a conscious addition to try to thicken the Japanese atmosphere of the setting. I mean, you have instances like Yukaricchi where the translators basically comprehended the fact that such a nickname may be hard to understand for English speakers so instead of leaving it as is, which would be the 'lazy' thing to do, they decided to change it to Yukatan because tan is a relatively popular and more well-known honorific amongst the more core English audience. When you have them putting in honorifics that didn't even exist in the original, that shows a pretty clear and obvious intention that it's not so much laziness but an intentional style to appeal to what English speakers might think of when they see this type of "anime game".

It's definitely unorthodox and a bit strange and I don't necessarily agree with it, but I don't think it should be lumped together with other translations that probably leave them in just because "eh whatever our audience probably knows them." Like, if you see them in a setting that's not even Japanese, you have a problem.

(This is assuming Yukaricchi isn't also used in the translation. I haven't played it so I can't say for sure, but I was under the impression that Yukatan is used instead in basically all instances)

The problem is inconsistency. Atlus US do it for Persona, but not for Soul Hackers(thank god). Either go all the way or not. Aksys didn't use a single one in Tokyo Twilight Ghost Hunters, for instance, and the localization was fantastic. Same with Muramasa.

 

[Jintor]

Anyway, It is my opinion that you lose a lot of atmosphere and nuances when you remove the honorifics.

You just gotta figure out how to give the same nuance in more natural language. There's no direct equivalents but it's just a subset of 'ways we refer to people indicate our level of respect/familiarity', which I know at least has english equivalents

 

[cj_iwakura]

You just gotta figure out how to give the same nuance in more natural language. There's no direct equivalents but it's just a subset of 'ways we refer to people indicate our level of respect/familiarity', which I know at least has english equivalents

Not to toot my own horn, but Ougon Musou had lots of honorifics(oba-san, -sama, -kun, etc.) and the translation managed just fine without them.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

The problem is inconsistency. Atlus US do it for Persona, but not for Soul Hackers(thank god). Either go all the way or not. Aksys didn't use a single one in Tokyo Twilight Ghost Hunters, for instance, and the localization was fantastic. Same with Muramasa.

But does a company have to be consistent for everything they localize? I don't see what's wrong with using it consistently in some franchises (Persona) while completely disregarding it in others (everything else).

Obviously, a localization can easily get by without honourifics no matter what the context is. The argument is that adding these very Japanese phrases helps to create a more interesting and exotic script. If you don't think honourifics add these qualities that's fine. But I don't think anyone is arguing that they do them out of necessity.

 

[cj_iwakura]

But does a company have to be consistent for everything they localize? I don't see what's wrong with using it consistently in some franchises (Persona) while completely disregarding it in others (everything else).

It makes the 'it's for authenticity!' argument feel hollow.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

It makes the 'it's for authenticity!' argument feel hollow.

I don't think that really matters if they're using honourifics to enhance the "daily life" atmosphere unique to Persona though.

At the end of the day though, I see why you don't like them and I respect that. I just disagree with your arguments, which doesn't really matter too much in the end.

 

[_Ryo_]

Ultimately, when I'm playing persona I am role-playing in the game as a Japanese person, speaking Japanese (just appearing as English) and since honorifics are part of being Japanese and part of the culture, it takes me out of it a bit when they aren't there.

Maybe a compromise is there could be an option to toggle honorifics on or off.

 

[Dragon1893]

PSP or PS1? Although the PSP translation is more 'accurate'(Michel), I feel like the PS1 version is ideal, and still very professional. (And has a much, much better font).

Actually playing the PSone version but I'm definitely getting the PSP version for my Vita when it's on sale again.
Here's the thing, though I've always liked P2, this time it's really clicking with me for some reason and I'm actually regretting not getting the PSP version for this playthrough since now I really want to check it out to see the differences. I don't have a lot of time to play and a huge backlog but I'm enjoying it so much that I'm gonna finish this run and then check out the PSP version. I'm also very hyped for the translation you guys are doing for EP like I already said in the other thread, thanks do much for doing that.

Also, I don't have any problems with the honorifics.

 

[Jintor]

Ultimately, when I'm playing persona I am role-playing in the game as a Japanese person, speaking Japanese (just appearing as English) and since honorifics are part of being Japanese and part of the culture, it takes me out of it a bit when they aren't there.

Maybe a compromise is there could be an option to toggle honorifics on or off.

Nah, too much work. (It's not a simple find and replace job and also I doubt an engine would be built with that in mind... unless it was an entirely different localisation script. lmao)

I get where you're coming from, but the fact that it's in English at all means you've already accepted the translation convention... speaking a language, hearing a language, all these things already change the way you think about the way information is conveyed... language, words, these shape thought; that you have things in english already means you've already been taken out of it... may as well go the full way, imho.

しょうがないよ～

 

[Setsu00]

Ultimately, when I'm playing persona I am role-playing in the game as a Japanese person, speaking Japanese (just appearing as English) and since honorifics are part of being Japanese and part of the culture, it takes me out of it a bit when they aren't there.

Maybe a compromise is there could be an option to toggle honorifics on or off.

While I personally don't mind the honorifics, your argument doesn't make a lot of sense when you give it some thought. I'm not really sure how to explain it, but I'll give it my best shot. English doesn't know honorifics. They don't just don't exist in that language. There is no way to accurately portray the nuances of a certain honorific in a language that doesn't use them. Accordingly, every attempt at translating them can only result in an approximation.

Japanese, as you pointed out, relies pretty heavily on honorifics to denote the social relationship between two speakers. You can also infer a lot of information about the speaker's self-perception from the way they use (or don't use) honorifics. However, I doubt that Japanese speakers actively think about what honorifics they use whenever they talk to someone. I believe it's similiar to German or French which distinguish between "du/tu" (you, casual) and "Sie/vous" (you, but polite) since that also reflects the connection two people share. It's also a better point of comparison than "Monsieur" (or "Herr", by extension) as it shows that there is some information in a dialogue that cannot be translated directly without sounding unnatural.

The point is that you cannot copy the characteristics of one language and past them on another language without dabbling into problems. You will always lose information during the translation process even if you chose to write around every single linguistic or stylistic problem you encounter. A Japanese native speaker considers honorifics as something natural while they don't naturally appear in English. Assuming that the characters in a work of fiction are native speakers and only interact with other native speakers with a flawless rendition of their native language, it would make sense to translate the dialogue of such characters with a flawless rendition of the target language.

That being said, I really don't mind the honorifics and I actually want them to stay for the sake of consistency within the Persona series.

 

[Sophia]

The problem with honorifics is that they don't simply have an equivalent in English. For games like Persona 3 and Persona 4, which are so inbred with the social structure of modern Japan, they are very difficult to remove and write around. It goes beyond what your average Japanese RPG does when translated, really. Which is why other Atlus titles drop them.

"Senpai" and "Sensei" in particular just have no English counterpart that would work and sound natural. So your only choices are a) leave the honorifics in as is b) write around them every time they come up or c) effectively ignore/remove them entirely in the English script. Writing around them with their consistent usage would be a real pain in the ass and stress on the editor/translator, where as ignoring them would remove the nuances of a lot of character development.

Mitsuru and Akihiko's relationship with the other characters relies heavily on the fact that they're the "senpai" of the group. For Akihiko, this wouldn't be too hard to write around, but it's a lot harder to write around it for Mitsuru simply because that social dynamic doesn't really exist in English. Especially among teenagers. Likewise, while "sensei" can sometimes be translated directly into English, Teddie's particular use of the word doesn't have a direct translation. He's using it to describe someone who has a particular mastery within a field, and I can't think of a word that would keep the same connotations of that in English without bringing upon new ones.

I don't fault the localization for using them in Persona 3 and Persona 4, as I doubt there is a much better way of handling them that wouldn't increasingly become weird from a writing/editing standpoint.

 

[Aadrian1234]

I've never had an issue with the honorifics, and P3 was pretty much my first "japanese game".

 

[hughesta]

P4 was the first game of its ilk that I played, and I don't watch much anime, but my friend and I never had a problem with the honorifics. Seemed natural.

 

[_Ryo_]

Soooo less than a day until IGN comes out with P5 news of an announcement of an announcement for yet another announcement of announcements at E3.

HYPE

 

[Morning Star]

The point is that you cannot copy the characteristics of one language and past them on another language without dabbling into problems. You will always lose information during the translation process even if you chose to write around every single linguistic or stylistic problem you encounter. A Japanese native speaker considers honorifics as something natural while they don't naturally appear in English. Assuming that the characters in a work of fiction are native speakers and only interact with other native speakers with a flawless rendition of their native language, it would make sense to translate the dialogue of such characters with a flawless rendition of the target language.

For example, an exchange takes place between Yosuke, Yukiko, and Protagonist in P4D where Yosuke refers to them as Yukiko-"san" and Yu-"kun". Chie then says that hearing him talk like that is weird. Without the honorifics I'm not sure there's a way the game could properly convey what Yosuke was doing with his speech. Little things like that would be hard to just gloss over or rework without changing the scene entirely in English and loosing the meaning behind the simple addition of honorifics. If they were simply not there because of some sort of toggle scenes like that would not make any sense.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

Soooo less than a day until IGN comes out with P5 news of an announcement of an announcement for yet another announcement of announcements at E3.

HYPE

No, that was when John Hardin RT'd IGN's announcement of an announcement of Atlus' E3 surprises.

Come on, man. Get the facts straight.

 

[CrimsonFist]

Soooo less than a day until IGN comes out with P5 news of an announcement of an announcement for yet another announcement of announcements at E3.

HYPE

I hate that shit.

.

 

[_Ryo_]

No, that was when John Hardin RT'd IGN's announcement of an announcement of Atlus' E3 surprises.

Come on, man. Get the facts straight.

But it'll go down like this

IGN: For Persona 5 wait for Dengeki on the 9th for a P5 announcement and expect an English trailer, interviews, release date and special announcement at E3!!

Dengeki: Reveals cooperation system and tells fans to watch E3 for more announcements

E3: Announces release date and also "Tune in a week from now at Persona5.jp for an extended hands on demostration!"

Atlus a week later: Shows demo of castle dungeon and promises a surprise announcement for for day one players, to be announced at a later date.


Edit: Could IGN announce the English voice actors?

...

Lol, nope.

 

[atlusprime]

No, that was when John Hardin RT'd IGN's announcement of an announcement of Atlus' E3 surprises.

Come on, man. Get the facts straight.

Man, all I did was send them a few pictures of our E3 badge.

Why are you guys expecting us to announce that we are announcing something? :/

 

[FluxWaveZ]

 

[CrimsonFist]

I guarantee that IGN will not mention Dengeki at all. It's a Japanese magazine aimed at the Japanese audience. IGN may have new info which Dengeki will duplicate for the Japanese audience, however that would be interesting, considering that most of what I'd expect from a pre E3 event wouldn't be stuff of interest to a Japanese audience.

And Atlus have specified the 14th, so it's not like they're likely to just drop PV5 now.

 

[_Ryo_]

Man, all I did was send them a few pictures of our E3 badge.

Why are you guys expecting us to announce that we are announcing something? :/

Because the conspiracy never dies.

 

[atlusprime]

Unrelated to riling you up with E3 conspiracies, the honorific discussion was interesting. Big topic in the office this year.

 

[Setsu00]

For example, an exchange takes place between Yosuke, Yukiko, and Protagonist in P4D where Yosuke refers to them as Yukiko-"san" and Yu-"kun". Chie then says that hearing him talk like that is weird. Without the honorifics I'm not sure there's a way the game could properly convey what Yosuke was doing with his speech. Little things like that would be hard to just gloss over or rework without changing the scene entirely in English and loosing the meaning behind the simple addition of honorifics. If they were simply not there because of some sort of toggle scenes like that would not make any sense.

As I said, I'm not against honorifics and there are good reasons for using them, yes.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

Unrelated to riling you up with E3 conspiracies, the honorific discussion was interesting. Big topic in the office this year.

Hey, it can't all be waifu wars and shittalking spinoffs here.

 

[MudoSkills]

I didn't know that the use of honorifics or not was even a big issue - I only ever see it being bought up as a stick to beat JRPG fans over the head with in 'filthy weeaboo' level discussions.

I don't read a lot of manga/watch much anime, so when I first played P3 all those years ago all the kun, chan, tan stuff didn't particularly mean anything to me, but it sure as hell didn't take me out of the game that i didn't understand the apparent nuance to it.

 

[Green Mamba]

Concerning honorifics, I don't buy the argument that they add context or nuance to an English translation, because the only way they could is if the audience is already familiar with what Japanese honorifics mean, and applying them to an English translation, which are made for people who aren't familiar with Japanese, is circular. I think they're kept in Persona translations to make them sound more like an anime that the target audience would be familiar with, not for this supposed extra nuance. P4 leans more heavily on them than P3 did, and to its detriment I think. If P5 wants to be serious about widening the audience I would think it would be in their best interest to drop them or at least scale them back. But I'm not really a localizer so what the hell do I know.

At the very least don't have any lines like Laura Bailey complaining about having to learn English that is spoken in completely perfect English.

 

[StarSketch]

At the very least don't have any lines like Laura Bailey complaining about having to learn English that is spoken in completely perfect English.

Now that I think of it, in the anime's dub that exact line got changed to her talking about spell-checking her work.

 

[CrimsonFist]

Devil Survivor had a similar line too.

P5 seems to have the cast visiting Hawaii, so expect even more of it.

Unless they Revelations: Persona it, that's not really something you can get around though, you just have to accept that they are speaking Japanese.

 

[Ehm]

Today on E3 Conspiracies:

 

[CrimsonFist]

Today on E3 Conspiracies:

Next week, with game magazines.

 

[StarSketch]

Isn't it way too late for DAN to be getting DLC?

 

[Ehm]

Isn't it way too late for DAN to be getting DLC?

Not if we believe in the heart of the (tarot) cards.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

Isn't it way too late for DAN to be getting DLC?

Hmm...

Is it crazy to think that asset would be used on the P5 character models for the attendants?

 

[CrimsonFist]

Isn't it way too late for DAN to be getting DLC?

At this point, probably.

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

I had a second playthrough of PQ saved just before the end a while back, so I finally went back tonight to finish it.

...The final boss is pretty easy when you manage to panic it on the first turn and it never recovers.

 

[Lunar15]

I don't mind them, but they're not necessary. At no point is it necessary to describe akihiko and mitsuru as senpai. We are told they are older and they act older.