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Persona Community Thread |OT8| Coming Winter 2014

I don't mind them, but they're not necessary. At no point is it necessary to describe akihiko and mitsuru as senpai. We are told they are older and they act older.

It's more than just that.
One example is there being a conversation with Aigis where she states her refusal to refer to Ikustuki with the -san suffix after he betrays them. Seems evident and marginal for anyone else, but for her I think it's pretty fitting that she'd go over such a basic conversational function.
 
Not every little bit of information can be completely, perfectly retained when translating from one language to another, and without the actual knowledge of what honorifics mean, they are worthless to the audience of an English translation as far as I'm concerned. P3 and P4's localizations succeed in spite of them.
 
The thing I find particularly weird about the use of suffixes in P3 (and maybe P4, but i can't confirm this) is the way that they're used with first names as opposed to surnames. In th Japanese, Mitsuru is 'Kirijo-senpai' and Akihiko is 'Sanada-senpai', whereas in the English dub they're 'Mitsuru-senpai' and 'Akihiko-senpai'. This is true for the majority of the main cast.

I understand this is done because in the US and UK you use first names regularly, whereas in Japan you ordinarily use surnames (with first name usage usually being a sign of closeness), but if you're going to essentially invert the first-name/last-name usage for the sake of localisation, the usage of suffixes seems rather redundant for the preservation of a cultural flavour you are already disrupting. The relationships can always be shown in English through other forms of deference or formality. If you are going to keep the suffixes (or add suffixes) for cultural flavour, the Japanese name order should also be preserved. If you are not actually going to stick to the norms of Japanese (in)formal address, then I fail to see why the suffixes are present.
 

Nachos

Member
You're assuming that Persona 5 will be shown at the conference, while I think what others like A Dead Diehard are considering is that it wouldn't and that the trailer they would release outside of it would have subs.

I'm just playing armchair marketer, but I still think it doesn't make much business sense for such a critical darling to miss it. E3 might be losing its luster, but it still has more visibility than Atlus USA's YouTube channel would have.

While I personally don't mind the honorifics, your argument doesn't make a lot of sense when you give it some thought. I'm not really sure how to explain it, but I'll give it my best shot. English doesn't know honorifics. They don't just don't exist in that language. There is no way to accurately portray the nuances of a certain honorific in a language that doesn't use them. Accordingly, every attempt at translating them can only result in an approximation.

Japanese, as you pointed out, relies pretty heavily on honorifics to denote the social relationship between two speakers. You can also infer a lot of information about the speaker's self-perception from the way they use (or don't use) honorifics. However, I doubt that Japanese speakers actively think about what honorifics they use whenever they talk to someone. I believe it's similiar to German or French which distinguish between "du/tu" (you, casual) and "Sie/vous" (you, but polite) since that also reflects the connection two people share. It's also a better point of comparison than "Monsieur" (or "Herr", by extension) as it shows that there is some information in a dialogue that cannot be translated directly without sounding unnatural.

The point is that you cannot copy the characteristics of one language and past them on another language without dabbling into problems. You will always lose information during the translation process even if you chose to write around every single linguistic or stylistic problem you encounter. A Japanese native speaker considers honorifics as something natural while they don't naturally appear in English. Assuming that the characters in a work of fiction are native speakers and only interact with other native speakers with a flawless rendition of their native language, it would make sense to translate the dialogue of such characters with a flawless rendition of the target language.

That being said, I really don't mind the honorifics and I actually want them to stay for the sake of consistency within the Persona series.

This is why I have a distaste for them. I can deal and understand their uses, but I wish they weren't there.

As you said, the script exists to be natural – to portray characters with a certain degree of believability, so that even if certain parts are stylized beyond reality, it's still grounded to keep the audience invested. At the end of the day, the story is one of people, all with relatable, or, at least, understandable issues. Each culture has their quirks, but they're still of people. Using a franken-language as your first line to connecting with these people is only going to put up barriers – to emphasize the alien qualities, whether they're yours or theirs.

This is a lot more obvious in the range of manga fan-translations that translate everything literally (or at least, always make direct equivalents for certain parts of speech), but at some point, it risks losing sight of what the intent was. The words don't matter – they're means to communication – so idolizing specific word usages in the name of authenticity only undermines the credibility of the story. It further pushes whatever plights there might be from immediate and personable into the realm of weirdo, abstracted artifact. The languages aren't directly analogous, which is why some information will be lost in instanced cases no matter what, but the goal should be to have the same net information by the end. I think a lot of people get obsessed with the idea that these concepts are indescribable in English, when they're just expressed in different ways. It might not be as concise, or it might present a connotation minefield, but it's possible to navigate the mess.

I think they're kept in Persona translations to make them sound more like an anime that the target audience would be familiar with, not for this supposed extra nuance.

The thing is, I don't know any English-dubbed anime that keep the honorifics.
 

Jintor

Member
At tthe very least don't have any lines like Laura Bailey complaining about having to learn English that is spoken in completely perfect English.

The K-On movie dub has the main characters go to England and pretend not to be able to speak English. I guess they were dubbed as Americans, but still...

best part: the Japanese dub went out and got actual English people, accents and all, to do the voicework for the movie for the bits set in London. It's great! ...if you're watching in Japanese.
 

ar4757

Member
A good question

Random question while waiting for it: What game would you like to see first using P5's engine (besides P5, obviously)

I still haven't played Nocturne, and am gonna start DDS today, but a more Nocturne inspired SMTV would he really cool based on what I've seen of Nocturne
 
A good question

Random question while waiting for it: What game would you like to see first using P5's engine (besides P5, obviously)

I still haven't played Nocturne, and am gonna start DDS today, but a more Nocturne inspired SMTV would he really cool based on what I've seen of Nocturne

A new IP like Catherine
 

Setsu00

Member
A good question

Random question while waiting for it: What game would you like to see first using P5's engine (besides P5, obviously)

I still haven't played Nocturne, and am gonna start DDS today, but a more Nocturne inspired SMTV would he really cool based on what I've seen of Nocturne

As much as I love Soejima and his art, I would like to see a new game with Kazuma Kaneko next. But considering that Kaneko even stopped working on SMT, I doubt that this will happen.
 
The thing is, I don't know any English-dubbed anime that keep the honorifics.

Ouran and Accel World both use 'Senpai'. AC didn't use it as a suffix though. Accel World also left several phrases in Okinawan untranslated, though you can also possibly chalk that up to the focus character not understanding either.

Those are the only instances I can think of though I feel like there's more.
 
Ouran and Accel World both use 'Senpai'. AC didn't use it as a suffix though. Accel World also left several phrases in Okinawan untranslated, though you can also possibly chalk that up to the focus character not understanding either.

Those are the only instances I can think of though I feel like there's more.
I put something on in the background yesterday while I was playing fire emblem fates and I distinctly remember hearing an honorific...It was either love live, lucky star, or and you thought there was never a girl online.

Really not sure which one I heard it. I had like 12 episodes playthrough between those 3 shows and I maybe paid real attention for 15 minutes
 

Tamanon

Banned
The honorifics are alright for me, but I would have no problem if they were gone. They're just kinda there that's all.

Time is a flat circle when it comes to these discussions. New news soon though!
 

Lunar15

Member
I just really can't think of a place where the honorifics really enhanced dialogue/relationship between characters and simple emotion wouldn't suffice.

For example, one of the more interesting parts is seeing Kanji refer to the MC as senpai but genuinely meaning it out of respect, not just because he's older than him. From a rough character like Kanji, that's fun to see. However, it's nothing that isn't already demonstrated by Kanji's tone of voice around the MC. You can remove the senpai and nothing is lost. Same with all the chan's, san's, and sama's,

Interestingly, P5 makes this even easier to drop them because they can use Joker as a codeword to refer to the MC instead of honorifics like Senpai. Not sure what they're going to use in daily life, though.

The honorifics are alright for me, but I would have no problem if they were gone. They're just kinda there that's all.

Time is a flat circle when it comes to these discussions. New news soon though!

Basically this. They don't bother me, but I also think it's entirely fine to drop them.
 

PK Gaming

Member
I could do without honorifics in most games/anime, but I think they're pretty important in games like Persona 3/4, which are aggressively Japanese experiences.
 

ar4757

Member
I feel like the honorifics make me appreciate the way the culture works a bit better. I didn't understand the nuances as well as I do now until I played Persona. That and the Yakuza series with Majima calling the tough Kiryu "Kiryu-chan" make me get some of the subtleties

That said, they aren't really necessary, but I think it is a distinguishing feature of these games. They feel authentic
 
I feel like the honorifics make me appreciate the way the culture works a bit better. I didn't understand the nuances as well as I do now until I played Persona. That and the Yakuza series with Majima calling the tough Kiryu "Kiryu-chan" make me get some of the subtleties

That said, they aren't really necessary, but I think it is a distinguishing feature of these games. They feel authentic

Would a better term be "immersion"? Cause that's what I'm thinking right now.
 

Sophia

Member
Oh yeah, I forgot the first Yakuza used honorifics in it's dub. Now THERE was an interesting (and arguably silly) localization choice. >_>;
 
Oh yeah, I forgot the first Yakuza used honorifics in it's dub. Now THERE was an interesting (and arguably silly) localization choice. >_>;

The only thing I remember about the original Yakuza's translation was Adam Sessler bitching about the high concentration of profanity.

Them using honorifics in the dub, but then having him refer to him as "Kazzy" in the sub-only games is weird.
 
http://uk.ign.com/articles/2016/06/06/e3-2016-persona-5-e3-plans-artwork-revealed-2
badge.jpg
 

Setsu00

Member
"It's a PS4 exclusive"

"It's also coming on PS3 in Japan"

"But probably not here"

IGN is either misinformed or we're in for a surprise. Woohoo.
 

DNAbro

Member
"It's a PS4 exclusive"

"It's also coming on PS3 in Japan"

"But probably not here"

IGN is either misinformed or we're in for a surprise. Woohoo.

Goldfarb for whatever reason seems misinformed about that. Their discussion on it was "PS3 version was never confirmed for here", when it was.
 

Strimei

Member
At this rate, I'm going to be pretty much glued to my screen come Sony's conference. I have high hopes.

Wish I (or a friend) was attending so I could at least get that badge. Want.
 

MSMrRound

Member
Ugh I so wish that Soejima and those bags can make an appearance at my local game con later this year in October...heck...I wish I'll be able to see any form of marketing for P5 there ;_; (will definitely wear my Atlus E3 2015 bag over there to serve as a walking billboard advertisement though!)
 
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