Am I alone in thinking that the MC never seems like he's ogling a girl? In the car, it just looks like he's looking at Anne, probably because Ryuji is making such a show of it. More of a "what's going on?" than a "that's hot."
It seems similar to the case where Yu joined in with Yosuke eating Chie and Yukiko's food as far as joining in on the antics with him looking at Anne. Anne also calls them idiots, so she certainly didn't see it as just being Ryuji.
I think the are trying to strike a balance of balance of how much emotion the protagonist can show though which is why they may have even dialed back his expressions in his cut-ins since they were shown.
You're definitely not alone. The beach scene from the fourth trailer gave me the same idea. Yusuke and the protagonist look both kinda shocked, Anne is cool with everything and Ryuji is getting aroused.
It only really shows you the party members that have been officially revealed so far.
So yeah you can watch it.(If you have seen the other trailers)
Also
The actual intro video is pretty much what we've seen already with pretty much one added scene for some of the new characters.
I am absolutely not watching the beginning of the game, though.
Also, I'd be so down for the protag to be able to date a guy. If the dating system is anything like P4, there's pretty much no reason they can't do it.
The actual intro video is pretty much what we've seen already with pretty much one added scene for some of the new characters.
I am absolutely not watching the beginning of the game, though.
Also, I'd be so down for the protag to be able to date a guy. If the dating system is anything like P4, there's pretty much no reason they can't do it.
I figured as much. We'd realized a while back that most of the trailers were showing the opening but in a different order since it's somewhat of an "in medias res" type situation.
But still, gonna save that.
Boy, the hot car scene sure is lame. Japan needs to get over that joke, jesus.
It only really shows you the party members that have been officially revealed so far.
So yeah you can watch it.(If you have seen the other trailers)
Also
Morgana with that soulless stare......
There is nothing behind those eyes.
I don't have much hope for this anime special.
At least from P3 on, Persona is basically aimed at the straight male otaku demographic, not even straight men broadly. That is to say, it's a very niche title. Similarly, the bishonen are there for the shoujo market. This isn't actually a reason to not include a m/m option, though. It's just that while a company like BioWare includes m/m and f/f options for the sake of diversity and representation, if Atlus does so it will primarily aimed at the fujoshi market, which while much, much smaller than the otaku crowd is still relatively sizeable and lucrative. At least, it's probably be lucrative enough to justify adding a single m/m option into an otherwise standard otaku game.
I find it fascinating that the game seems to be going for the anti-P4 in terms of pacing. Considering P4 takes about 3 hours to get going, P5's in medias res framing is a pretty stark shift. The general tone is a lot darker, down to the opening interrogation and the difficulty/name selection, to say nothing of the protagonist's reason for being "enigmatic transfer student of the moment", and that scene at the Shibuya crosswalk. The game seems to be ramping up the pacing from the very start in a way that P3 and P4 just didn't.
The romance in P4 was literally a yes/no question at the end of a few social links, so if it stays the same here, they lose nothing by letting the MC swing for the other team.
At this point, it speaks pretty ill of Persona's fanbase that the "gay relationships" discussion is always a huge point of contention that's met with resistance to change, double-standards, and honestly lowkey hostility.
The sexual orientation/preferences of Persona fans that aren't straight and male are inconvenient and annoying to acknowledge - that's the takeaway the opposition always projects in this discussion. Because all the arguments against are so thin and easily refuted.
Persona, as a franchise, is ultimately about the human condition. There are many facets to that. Atlus should be making an effort to account for more of them with each new game. It would only be good for this series.
These are thing we should all agree on without so much as a second thought.
At this point, it speaks pretty ill of Persona's fanbase that the "gay relationships" discussion is always a huge point of contention that's met with resistance to change, double-standards, and honestly lowkey hostility.
The sexual orientation/preferences of Persona fans that aren't straight and male are inconvenient and annoying to acknowledge - that's the takeaway the opposition always projects in this discussion. Because all the arguments against are so thin and easily refuted.
Persona, as a franchise, is ultimately about the human condition. There are many facets to that. Atlus should be making an effort to account for more of them with each new game. It would only be good for this series.
These are thing we should all agree on without so much as a second thought.
I would personally like to assume that most people here do agree, but I think there is a certain drive in hardcore-fanbases to proactively defend something they like for not having something it never had.
I don't really see any of the arguments as "I don't want the gays in my persona!" and more "please like the thing I like even if it doesn't have the thing you want". Is that right? No, it's not, but I feel like we've all felt this about some property at one point or another.
I would personally like to assume that most people here do agree, but I think there is a certain drive in hardcore-fanbases to proactively defend something they like for not having something it never had.
I don't really see any of the arguments as "I don't want the gays in my persona!" and more "please like the thing I like even if it doesn't have the thing you want". Is that right? No, it's not, but I feel like we've all felt this about some property at one point or another.
Certainly true. Just as regular posters on GAF, most of us here know nearly every franchise of prominence is grappling with these topics these past few years more than ever.
I think these reactions sting for Persona in particular though because these games are so laser focused on their themes. They're about grappling with very basic realities of our existence. Knowing other characters struggles and experiences and relating them to our own. Persona accounting for more perspectives fits it's MO more than probably any other series of games I could think of.
And really, I do have faith Atlus will get there, as I do believe progress comes in increments. In the meantime though, the resistance remains disheartening, whether it's coming from a vocal minority or not.
I would personally like to assume that most people here do agree, but I think there is a certain drive in hardcore-fanbases to proactively defend something they like for not having something it never had.
I don't really see any of the arguments as "I don't want the gays in my persona!" and more "please like the thing I like even if it doesn't have the thing you want". Is that right? No, it's not, but I feel like we've all felt this about some property at one point or another.
Been watching this kerfuffle all afternoon, and this is pretty much my take.
And if, for argument's sake, people do have actual concerns or problems with it, I doubt even they will mind a couple of months past release. Just let what happens happen.
And really, I do have faith Atlus will get there, as I do believe progress comes in increments. In the meantime though, the resistance remains disheartening, whether it's coming from a vocal minority or not.
Minority or otherwise, vocal or otherwise, we're all part of the western fandom.
(which means our thoughts about what Atlus should do with their series amounts to pretty much nothing as far as influence goes, so no point in worrying about their doubt/apprehension/disinterest/whatever-you-put-too-much-stock-in affecting anything. )
At least from P3 on, Persona is basically aimed at the straight male otaku demographic, not even straight men broadly. That is to say, it's a very niche title. Similarly, the bishonen are there for the shoujo market. This isn't actually a reason to not include a m/m option, though. It's just that while a company like BioWare includes m/m and f/f options for the sake of diversity and representation, if Atlus does so it will primarily aimed at the fujoshi market, which while much, much smaller than the otaku crowd is still relatively sizeable and lucrative. At least, it's probably be lucrative enough to justify adding a single m/m option into an otherwise standard otaku game.
Makes me wonder what the fujoshi fandom would prefer, a gay option or ambiguous pandering with different guys like P4. I know what the majority of the Western fandom wants, but Japanese fujoshi can be kinda weird.
Minority or otherwise, vocal or otherwise, we're all part of the western fandom.
(which means our thoughts about what Atlus should do with their series amounts to pretty much nothing as far as influence goes, so no point in worrying about their doubt/apprehension/disinterest/whatever-you-put-too-much-stock-in affecting anything. )
I want gay romance. Like, let me roleplay properly in your life sim RPG already, Atlus. But that's the JRPG experience. Gay guys don't exist unless they're punchlines. orz
This game hasn't managed to get past the "OMG DID YOU SEE THOSE BOOBS" phase of anime, so I definitely don't think we're going to get all that progressive with the romance this time.
I do think that if this series continues, however, it will happen.
This game hasn't managed to get past the "OMG DID YOU SEE THOSE BOOBS" phase of anime, so I definitely don't think we're going to get all that progressive with the romance this time.
I do think that if this series continues, however, it will happen.
Minority or otherwise, vocal or otherwise, we're all part of the western fandom.
(which means our thoughts about what Atlus should do with their series amounts to pretty much nothing as far as influence goes, so no point in worrying about their doubt/apprehension/disinterest/whatever-you-put-too-much-stock-in affecting anything. )
I have a feeling Persona 2's still going to remain the most progressive in that regard. It in no way defined Jun, it was just something he happened to be.
Defeatism is just another form the resistance takes, honestly. You're of course free to be as skeptical as you like, ADD. I'm going to keep challenging them to do better, hope that they will, and keep the faith for it.
I have a feeling Persona 2's still going to remain the most progressive in that regard. It in no way defined Jun, it was just something he happened to be.
That's kind of a huge thing, and why part of me was hoping they'd just kind of casually drop a "hey, do you want to date Yusuke?" He seems like a pretty boss character.
That's kind of a huge thing, and why part of me was hoping they'd just kind of casually drop a "hey, do you want to date Yusuke?" He seems like a pretty boss character.
If P5 included gay options, how should they be written and/or portrayed not to just pander to their (specific) female demographic? I often see people post that most gay fanservice isn't really for gay men, but instead for women. If someone could educate me on this subject, or point me toward some links, that'd be great!
Personally I think there's a 10% chance there might be one gay romamce option in Persona 5. If not, I hope Atlus seriously considers creating at least one romance option. Doesn't even have to be a party member.
Also a female option please. I know that's asking for a hell of a lot of work for the team but it would be awesome. P3P was a pretty great game because I got to experience the game again with a twist!
I obviously know this game is blatantly eastern in design and concept, but I like that the Western audience is pushing for these types of changes. I think it'd be awesome for Persona 6 or whatever to have a female protagonist option or a gay romance, even if the otakus are a cash cow for Atlus.
Actually, when I saw that scene of the MC and Ryuji watching soccer, part of me was like, yeah I could see it going that way.
Goro being gay wouldn't really be all that surprising at all. The weird little shows with him have him pretty much gushing about the phantom thieves and the leader in general.
This game hasn't managed to get past the "OMG DID YOU SEE THOSE BOOBS" phase of anime, so I definitely don't think we're going to get all that progressive with the romance this time.
I do think that if this series continues, however, it will happen.
Persona has been really weird on this front for me. At least P3/4, I don't remember having this issue at all of the first Personas I managed to play. On one hand they do some really cool progressive thinking stuff, then the next minute you're back in this incredibly low hanging fruit situation that at worst can take away from the progression. Despite them being older I actually found P3/4 regressive in a lot of fronts bar gameplay compared to P1/2.
And I got into Persona through 4
Having said that, there's no doubt Atlus is very self aware of their audiences that they do actively pander to them, but despite the fan service itself being backwards more times than not, I don-t think this should take away from their ability to be forward-thinking (I do think they could do better about the way they handle said fanservice buuuut that's another topic lol)
I also want to note that pretty much every single criticism that has been brought up about the previous games has been addressed in P5, the one withstanding being same sex option. I definitely don't doubt they're at least aware of the demand for it, and honestly, if it is in P5, I don-t expect them to make a show of it either lest they do a special specifically about romancing with cooperations. As far as Im aware they haven't mentioned anything about specifically romancing girls or romance in general, I imagine this is something we'll end up discovering in the game itself.
I obviously know this game is blatantly eastern in design and concept, but I like that the Western audience is pushing for these types of changes. I think it'd be awesome for Persona 6 or whatever to have a female protagonist option or a gay romance, even if the otakus are a cash cow for Atlus.
Or just a female protagonist, and not an option. We've gone over this point of discussion before, but the choice of a gender option would, objectively, make for a reduction in scope for many aspects of a new, modern Persona game due to limited resources now having to be split apart to account for that (that or the theoretical game would take a significantly longer time to come out). Seeing everything about P5 makes that evident.
Instead, a Persona 6 should be akin to Jojo's Part 6 and just go with a female lead, instead of a lame option.
Persona has been really weird on this front for me. At least P3/4, I don't remember having this issue at all of the first Personas I managed to play. On one hand they do some really cool progressive thinking stuff, then the next minute you're back in this incredibly low hanging fruit situation that at worst can take away from the progression. Despite them being older I actually found P3/4 regressive in a lot of fronts bar gameplay compared to P1/2.
And I got into Persona through 4
Having said that, there's no doubt Atlus is very self aware of their audiences that they do actively pander to them, but despite the fan service itself being backwards more times than not, I don-t think this should take away from their ability to be forward-thinking (I do think they could do better about the way they handle said fanservice buuuut that's another topic lol)
I also want to note that pretty much every single criticism that has been brought up about the previous games has been addressed in P5, the one withstanding being same sex option. I definitely don't doubt they're at least aware of the demand for it, and honestly, if it is in P5, I don-t expect them to make a show of it either lest they do a special specifically about romancing with cooperations. As far as Im aware they haven't mentioned anything about specifically romancing girls or romance in general, I imagine this is something we'll end up discovering in the game itself.
I agree that it's really weird. There's a lot of times where I'm like, "wow, this writing is really refreshing for a JRPG". Then the next scene is "hey check out these GIRLS in these BIKINIS". I'm no prude, but it's really jarring to get these weird, overplayed jokes shoehorned between some genuinely interesting pieces.
It's kind of weird that I hold up P3 and 4 as genuinely good examples of trope bending games in the modern era, given that they still actually hold up a lot of bad tropes.
Defeatism is just another form the resistance takes, honestly. You're of course free to be as skeptical as you like, ADD. I'm going to keep challenging them to do better, hope that they will, and keep the faith for it.
Agreed. I just hope that the challenges come without a lot of the casual racism that can show up in discussions about Japanese games (on both sides of the issue). Some dismiss the problem entirely by saying "it's just how the Japanese will always do things, it's fine." Some others undermine the complexity of the matter by saying that "the Japanese are completely uninterested or vindictive in their dealings with gender issues." It's really difficult, if not outright impossible, to really understand how Japan is dealing with sexuality and gender issues without being more knowledgeable about Japanese society than most of us are (myself included).
I think that these conversations about the role of gender and sexuality in Japanese games need to happen. I just don't think the way to approach these conversations is to blindly use the idea of "Japanese culture" as a weapon for your argument, regardless of what that argument might be. Don't apologize for their shortcomings, and don't attack them without due cause. If nothing else, just remember that at the end of the day the Japanese aren't a part of some monolithic hivemind.
I don't mean to imply that anyone in this thread acts this way. It's just something that's been bothering me for a while, and this discussion seemed like a good time to say my piece. Sorry for rambling.
Or just a female protagonist, and not an option. We've gone over this point of discussion before, but the choice of a gender option would, objectively, make for a reduction in scope for many aspects of a new, modern Persona game due to limited resources now having to be split apart to account for that (that or the theoretical game would take a significantly longer time to come out). Seeing everything about P5 makes that evident.
Instead, a Persona 6 should be akin to Jojo's Part 6 and just go with a female lead, instead of a lame option.
Heh, I agree with you. But I think you are being way more optimistic than me. That's like Persona 8 or 9 and the existance of the otaku bait character just proves it to me. Atlus still thinks there is an otaku market out there of straight dudes who are moneymakers.
Also I'm a little confused to the opposition on a FeMC cause the MCs are pretty much blank slates. Even FeMC in P3P was pretty barren in terms of actual character. What matters is the characters around MC, but that's a different topic.
Of course I'm judging this character and game based on apperences. And also I don't know how Atlus runs so they could do a female protagonist the next game. I'll happily eat crow if that happens.
Heh, I agree with you. But I think you are being way more optimistic than me. That's like Persona 8 or 9 and the existance of the otaku bait character just proves it to me. Atlus still thinks there is an otaku market out there of straight dudes who are moneymakers.
Also I'm a little confused to the opposition on a FeMC cause the MCs are pretty much blank slates. Even FeMC in P3P was pretty barren in terms of actual character. What matters is the characters around MC, but that's a different topic.
Of course I'm judging this character and game based on apperences. And also I don't know how Atlus runs so they could do a female protagonist the next game. I'll happily eat crow if that happens.
I'm not saying a FeMC is likely to happen, I'm saying that a standalone female lead is leagues better than a gender option. There are so many reasons for this:
1. Atlus doesn't have the resources or staff of something like a Bioware.
2. A character's gender has different representation in the modern Persona games to the Bioware ones. One of the notable examples are the multiple anime cutscenes that would have to be redone for a gender switch option.
3. Story segments specific to the character's gender would have to be overhauled (e.g. the "Miss" Yasogami Pageant in Persona 4).
4. Dialogue, art, voice acting, promotional material, mocap, animations etc. would need to be doubled for another gender option.
P3P was able to do this by 1: being a remake of an already developed title (twice) and 2: being severely reduced in terms of presentation with the visual novel treatment, removing anime cutscenes, etc.
I look at Persona 5 and I imagine how reduced some of the ambitions would be if they had to account for a gender option, and I really don't like it.
If P5 included gay options, how should they be written and/or portrayed not to just pander to their (specific) female demographic? I often see people post that most gay fanservice isn't really for gay men, but instead for women. If someone could educate me on this subject, or point me toward some links, that'd be great!
There's a fairly established genre of for-women m/m romance in Japan. It stretches back to the 70s with Takemiya Keiko's Kaze to Kino Uta and other works by the Year-24 Group, who were seen as revolutionising shoujo manga. A lot of the works a played a lot with gender expectations and roles (such as Ikeda Ryoko's Rose of Versailles, which is about a girl raised as a boy), and generally radically changed the shape of Japanese girl's manga. (As a note, the highly romanticised vision of Europe, notably France, that is often in shoujo manga also stems from these works). It developed into a various of overlapping genres, such as yaoi, shonen-ai, and BL ("Boy Love," a translation of shonen-ai but usually written in Latin capitals and seen as its own thing).
Anyway, basically there's a long history of this, which combined with the lack of visibility of LGBT people in Japan means that most works that address m/m pairings tend to be targeted at a female audience. There's a fair degree of scholarship on it, a lot of which is only in Japanese, though, and a lot of the Western scholarship unfortunately tends to revolve around the vaguely scandalised question "why do women like reading about/looking at gay men!!?" to which there are a variety of (more and less stupid) answers.
I'm not saying a FeMC is likely to happen, I'm saying that a standalone female lead is leagues better than a gender option. There are so many reasons for this:
1. Atlus doesn't have the resources or staff of something like a Bioware.
2. A character's gender has different representation in the modern Persona games to the Bioware ones. One of the notable examples are the multiple anime cutscenes that would have to be redone for a gender switch option.
3. Story segments specific to the character's gender would have to be overhauled (e.g. the "Miss" Yasogami Pageant in Persona 4).
4. Dialogue, art, voice acting, promotional material, mocap, animations etc. would need to be doubled for another gender option.
P3P was able to do this by 1: being a remake of an already developed title (twice) and 2: being severely reduced in terms of presentation with the visual novel treatment, removing anime cutscenes, etc.
I look at Persona 5 and I imagine how reduced some of the ambitions would be if they had to account for a gender option, and I really don't like it.
I also agree with you there. With P5, both Atlus and the Persona series are way past the point of creating FeMC DLC or Expansion. Which puts Atlus in a bad feedback loop in creating a FeMC for the hypothetical Persona 6. They don't know how much of the market would buy a FEMC P6 and they can't test the waters which leads to them creating a Male MC and continuing to cater to otakus. I believe that we are more likely to get Bioware style choose your gender options before another DLC.
Unless Atlus takes the risk and creates a FeMC for Persona 6, which I believe would still payoff and not hurt sales. Hopefully.
There's a fairly established genre of for-women m/m romance in Japan. It stretches back to the 70s with Takemiya Keiko's Kaze to Kino Uta and other works by the Year-24 Group, who were seen as revolutionising shoujo manga. A lot of the works a played a lot with gender expectations and roles (such as Ikeda Ryoko's Rose of Versailles, which is about a girl raised as a boy), and generally radically changed the shape of Japanese girl's manga. (As a note, the highly romanticised vision of Europe, notably France, that is often in shoujo manga also stems from these works). It developed into a various of overlapping genres, such as yaoi, shonen-ai, and BL ("Boy Love," a translation of shonen-ai but usually written in Latin capitals and seen as its own thing).
Anyway, basically there's a long history of this, which combined with the lack of visibility of LGBT people in Japan means that most works that address m/m pairings tend to be targeted at a female audience. There's a fair degree of scholarship on it, a lot of which is only in Japanese, though, and a lot of the Western scholarship unfortunately tends to revolve around the vaguely scandalised question "why do women like reading about/looking at gay men!!?" to which there are a variety of (more and less stupid) answers.
That's pretty interesting. This trend has deep historical roots of defying gender expectations. Curious how it has transformed into what it is today. Has any LGBT group in Japan commented on the yaoi content? Is there any content in Japan aimed at LGBT markets specifically?
I agree that it's really weird. There's a lot of times where I'm like, "wow, this writing is really refreshing for a JRPG". Then the next scene is "hey check out these GIRLS in these BIKINIS". I'm no prude, but it's really jarring to get these weird, overplayed jokes shoehorned between some genuinely interesting pieces.
It's kind of weird that I hold up P3 and 4 as genuinely good examples of trope bending games in the modern era, given that they still actually hold up a lot of bad tropes.
Yeah /: At this point all we can do is accept that this stufff is here to stay, but we can wish and hope that they could at least contextualize it better. Though considering that car incident I don't think we're off to a good start:
doesn't Anne go through a sexual harassment incident with her teacher? You save her from it and now, you're actively creeping on her? It just seems in really poor taste.
That's pretty interesting. This trend has deep historical roots of defying gender expectations. Curious how it has transformed into what it is today. Has any LGBT group in Japan commented on the yaoi content? Is there any content in Japan aimed at LGBT markets specifically?
RE: LGBT people commenting on yaoi, in the late 80's/90's when the yaoi/doujinshi genre went in full swing, there was actually quite a bit of protest from actual LGBT people because the content didn't represent homosexuality accurately (which is true), and there was also the question of fetishizing homosexuality. Though nowadays, there seems to be a lot of more crossover between consumers of BL (female demographic) and actual gei comi (gay comics for gay males) in Japan. As in, more gay males are reading BL and more females are reading gei comi. I think this has to do with females maturing on the sensibilities of homosexuality as a whole, and as a result, the works in BL matured as well.
Yeah /: At this point all we can do is accept that this stufff is here to stay, but we can wish and hope that they could at least contextualize it better. Though considering that car incident I don't think we're off to a good start:
doesn't Anne go through a sexual harassment incident with her teacher? You save her from it and now, you're actively creeping on her? It just seems in really poor taste.
Yeah, that's some weird behavior on Ryuji's side. I mean while it is completely normal for a teenager to stare at a hot classmate, Anne's background makes Ryuji look like a total ass.
Of course we don't know the exact story as of yet and in general it looks like Anne and Ryuji are best buddies, so I will just wait and see how everything plays out in the end.
I don't think the creators meant any harm by including this scene and just thought of it as a "fun" intermezzo.
Or just a female protagonist, and not an option. We've gone over this point of discussion before, but the choice of a gender option would, objectively, make for a reduction in scope for many aspects of a new, modern Persona game due to limited resources now having to be split apart to account for that (that or the theoretical game would take a significantly longer time to come out). Seeing everything about P5 makes that evident.
Instead, a Persona 6 should be akin to Jojo's Part 6 and just go with a female lead, instead of a lame option.
Defeatism is just another form the resistance takes, honestly. You're of course free to be as skeptical as you like, ADD. I'm going to keep challenging them to do better, hope that they will, and keep the faith for it.
You can shout at Atlus till the cows come home and I won't mind, what I take issue with is people jumping down each other's throats due to not believing enough.
With all this discussion of LGBT inclusion, there's something I'm curious about. I remember reading a rumor that Yosuke from P4 was originally supposed to be a gay option. Does this hold any merit?
That's kind of a huge thing, and why part of me was hoping they'd just kind of casually drop a "hey, do you want to date Yusuke?" He seems like a pretty boss character.
It would be cool if they could handle the actual social issues of it but that would be fine too. Hell I want better romance options in general. No more "Okay now we are dating but we will never talk to each other again except on holidays and we are keeping this secret because reasons"
I don't think any of the team would actually fall under dealing with the actual social issues of being gay or bi in Japanese society. Even Yusuke's issues probably have to deal with art or something. No idea what Goro's could be. I'm personally hoping at least it could be handled with one of the NPC S. links anyway.
For general romance improvements, I'd probably prefer it if the game just locked you into a single romance once you decided to pursue one if that let people know you're in a relationship instead of it being treated as some weird secret because you could be potentially dating 8 people at the same time.
)