Beach scene
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Persona Community Thread |OT9| SPOILER TAGS OR DIE
- Thread starter Dantis
- Start date
Beach scene
I agree, it's justified, but the problem is that from all other evidence presented Atlus Japan doesn't just use Kanji's dungeon as a critique for society's expectations of masculinity and such, but rather as a joke of what they think gay people really are like, given the fact that they're willing to use said "punchline" outside of the context of Kanji's dungeon. If that was the single instance this kind of thing happened in the franchise I don't think people would be criticizing them as harshly.
Ludger Kresnik
Member
Considering how little Atlus JP seem to care about the overseas market, I really doubt any western backlash will matter to them. This is a change that needs to come from within, or I doubt it ever will.
Agreed. It's actually my fav out of all of them.
I'm curious how they will react considering there is an actual good chance it will outsell the JP market. Probably the same.
A Dead Diehard
Member
I'd argue "Are we gonna be... safe with you?" is the least fine.
Mediking
Member
Oh, yeah... the memories are flooding back.... wow...... I was so busy day dreaming about Margaret and the nurse social link that I totally forgot the stuff going on with Kanji.
Ludger Kresnik
Member
I guess we'll see. For now I just hope people do criticise these things more heavily and more openly this time around, because it's absolutely unacceptable.
They managed to make that scene even worse in the anime, bless them.
I hope the characters in P5 are good. They don't need to mark any particular checkbox for me other than that.
Which in no way proves that he isn't exactly what I said: He's a teenager confused by his sexual identity, is overcompensating, and surrounded by a group of friends that are still made uncomfortable by him even after they "accept" him.
"But he likes girls too", doesn't refute what I wrote. It doesn't even engage it. Lazy replies deserve lazy replies.
You realize you replied to my post with a sarcastic response of pictures of Kanji getting nosebleeds, right?
Which in no way proves that he isn't exactly what I said: He's a teenager confused by his sexual identity, is overcompensating, and surrounded by a group of friends that are still made uncomfortable by him even after they "accept" him.
"But he likes girls too", doesn't refute what I wrote. It doesn't even engage it. Lazy replies deserve lazy replies.
I totally get that. On the other hand, as a gay dude, I've had insecurities about my own masculinity and couldn't help but want to see Kanji go through the same issues. A lot of societies have this stigma where gay men are treated like they're not "real men," so I could relate to Kanji's story in many ways, with his need to act tough to try and compensate for other sides to himself. Then when you throw in the whole "accept your true self" theme, it's hard not to draw comparisons. I'm sure on some level I was projecting on him by wanting him to be gay. As a teenager I didn't have many examples of gay people in video games, especially not main characters, of course even now there aren't that many outside of the "create your character" games. But in the end, Kanji is Kanji, and he's one of my favorite video game characters, whether he's straight, gay, bi, naotosexual, etc.
Anyway, sorry, not trying to turn this place into a therapy session lol, just wanted to give my two cents. This is still one of my favorite game series, and I'm very pumped for P5! Altus owns me regardless of how much they laugh at me.
To be honest, its more a japan problem than atlus problem.
And persona 4 already sold better in the west than in japan, and we get 5 months of delay as a reward, so yeah, I wouldnt count with Atlus caring about the west unless the sale ratio is absurdly western biased, which I cant see happening just yet
And persona 4 already sold better in the west than in japan, and we get 5 months of delay as a reward, so yeah, I wouldnt count with Atlus caring about the west unless the sale ratio is absurdly western biased, which I cant see happening just yet
Mediking
Member
Wait, what? I thought Atlus really cared for the West..... Persona 5 isn't coming till later because of lengthy localization. I'm not even joking here and I hope I don't sound like some Atlus fanboy. But I genuinely thought Atlus did care for their Western fanbase....
StarSketch
Banned
You're probably right about it being lead time, but we have no way of knowing for sure.
A Dead Diehard
Member
I doubt they care enough for it to be called such, but I also believe the localization is taking a while only because of the sheer volume of STUFF.
Kanji himself is a great character, bad gay jokes aside. His problems are relatable to anyone who's ever questioned their sexuality, and more importantly, anyone that's been told that their behavior doesn't really fit society's ideas of gender. I'd consider it a pretty progressive theme for Japan, which is fairly gender focused.
However, in doing so, they actually kinda threw LGBQ issues under the bus. The point of Kanji is that he's not gay, but that gender stereotypes in Japan deem that since he's a dude that likes girly things he must be gay.
It's one of those things where Atlus hit the mark but missed the target, if that makes any sense. Thematically, they're well intentioned. But in execution, they fucked up.
However, in doing so, they actually kinda threw LGBQ issues under the bus. The point of Kanji is that he's not gay, but that gender stereotypes in Japan deem that since he's a dude that likes girly things he must be gay.
It's one of those things where Atlus hit the mark but missed the target, if that makes any sense. Thematically, they're well intentioned. But in execution, they fucked up.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
well it works because that isnt purely a japan problem. The hazing I went through when I was 21 and ordered a margarita can attest to that.
Definitely not. It's a big issue in the states too. I'm sure everyone's probably had a situation where they did something that wasn't deemed appropriate for their respective gender.
Funyarinpa
Member
I just hope that y'all can enjoy the game despite
It's just saddening to see that bullshit that serves no purpose other than to exclude some of Persona's fans, many of whom have been waiting for this game as long as any other (and I say this as a person who got through P4G's camping scene just fine, could almost force myself to think they were simply shooting the crap).
Also, personally I would not find its removal from the Western release satisfactory. I want to see Atlus themselves change their viewpoint
that scene and the whole no gay options thing...
It's just saddening to see that bullshit that serves no purpose other than to exclude some of Persona's fans, many of whom have been waiting for this game as long as any other (and I say this as a person who got through P4G's camping scene just fine, could almost force myself to think they were simply shooting the crap).
Also, personally I would not find its removal from the Western release satisfactory. I want to see Atlus themselves change their viewpoint
and not create such pointlessly offensive characters or scenes that serve to do little than exclude parts of the fanbase.
Alright, then let's get into it. You claim that he's"struggling with his sexuality" but that was never a focal point in his arc. It might seem that way at first glance, but Kanji explicitly says "it's not about whether I like guys or girls." The game completely throws away the notion that he might be sexually repressed at the end of the Shadow confrontation, then doubles down on it by making explicitly clear that he's crushing on Naoto. How could that possibly be open to interpretation? How could the game have not given us a clearer idea?! The game gives you a pretty damn clear picture, and it's only gotten clear in subsequent re-releases and spinoffs. His friends slowly start to think of him as someone who "has a crush on Naoto" rather than someone "who struggled with their sexuality" (hence the insults)
I'm going to repeat this for emphasis. His sexuality has nothing to do with his character arc. His flamboyantly gay Shadow is an exaggerated potential fear of the possibility of him being gay, but that's it. They never follow up on it. He never expresses attraction towards any men other than than "Naoto."
Lunar15 is right. Kanji's arc uses potential LGBT as an intriguing plot point but then tosses it aside. Kanji is undeniably a great character, and his own struggles with his masculinity (especially when you consider the setting) is incredibly compelling. But I can't in good faith claim that he's a good LGBT character or that he's a guy struggling with his sexuality. It would be like praising a basketball player who made the easy layup over the player who drove the ball and made it possible to make that layup in the first place.
Kanji hasn't earned it. Atlus hasn't earned it.
I'm 200% looking forward to Persona 5. I want to be clear that criticizing aspects of Persona 5 = / = I dislike the entire game.
StarSketch
Banned
I mean it's ultimately 2 1 minute long sequences (from what I've seen, there could be more, and then there's the Devil link which is done in a gay bar, but I dunno how that will go) in an 80 hour + game. It's a drop in the bucket in comparison to the rest of the game but I also have a short list of games I can't show certain people due to how I've seen them react to content like this, and it sucks that almost the entire list is Atlus games.
Ludger Kresnik
Member
It's a Japan problem for sure, but it's also an Atlus problem. There's no excusing the stuff they've done. Also, like I've said before, this isn't a universal problem throughout Japanese media. If Danganronpa can handle this subject with all the respect it did, then Persona, which is specifically about tackling society's issues, has Zero Excuses.
It's like blaming Hashino for a bad track on the OST. He may have influence over the music, but it's ultimately Meguro who's in charge of making it. Let's not be excusing shitty writing because they're Japanese. Atlus are entirely capable of delivering positive LGBT representation. They just won't.
And just for the record, I'm obviously still going to play P5. I'll probably love it because it looks fucking rad. But will this affect my enjoyment of it? Absolutely.
Yeah, I don't agree with removing it. That's just putting blinders on. But ugh,
I can hear the over-exaggerated lisp already, assuming it's voiced. :/
So far that was the only exception, while 5-6 months have always been the rule. Of course they would bring a real sheen megumi tensay game faster, after all that series has all the hardcore translators working for it while Persona is handled by a bunch of casuls who translate a line or two after they're done drawing pictures of Chie and arguing who's the best waifu.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Also if you guys want them to start paying more attention to us then it's time for the west to burry the japanese sales Souls-style. That sweet 90 on metacritic is going to help.
BELIEVE
ShadowSoldier89
Member
it definitely didn't help that NoA had no faith in TMS after it failed in japan, like the markets are actually the same
The "it's just Japan" excuse is super terrible, honestly.
It's an awful, thought terminating excuse that:
A) barely even applies anymore (I can't even think of other mainstream jRPG series that repeatedly engages in these obnoxiously trite gay stereotypes). Even anime has gotten better in that regard. A N I M E.
B) is irrelevant for a game like Persona 5, which has made it its mission statement to subvert expectations. P2 handled LGBT themes better more than a decade ago without even trying.
A Dead Diehard
Member
What I'm more curious to see is how you all react to something else that happens midgame.
It's nothing major. In fact the reason I'm curious about its reception is that it's swept under the rug.
It's nothing major. In fact the reason I'm curious about its reception is that it's swept under the rug.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
no igniting curiosity...BAD!
Ludger Kresnik
Member
If it gets even worse than what I already know then I'm going to personally slap everyone involved.
StarSketch
Banned
A Dead Diehard
Member
Sadly Atlus Japan will probably ignore any kind of Western criticism and chalk it up to "cultural differences".
Funyarinpa
Member
He is struggling with his sexual identity, which involves how he is perceived by others and gender norms; which is the case everywhere in the world, but especially so in Japan where gender norms are even more enforced than in other places. To say "his sexuality has nothing to do with his character arc" is a bit myopic, whether or not you embolden it or repeat it for emphasis. Sexual identity is a complicated thing that involves one's view of themselves, which is inherently a result of societal norms and expectations and how others see them. I'm not necessarily talking about his sexual orientation or his sexual behavior. I never said Kanji was a great gay character, I never even said Kanji is gay. I said he is somebody who is awkwardly trying to figure out his identity because he doesn't fit neatly into the prescribed category that is expected of him. I said I appreciated the fact that he still seems to be figuring things out, because it can be a complicated matter and he is a 15 year old. His friends joking around with him, gay panic jokes or the "Whew! You just like tomboyish girls. Thank goodness!" all have an air of verisimilitude. Those interactions are a part of him dealing with societal expectations of his gender and sexual identity, not a sign that he has, as a character, has moved past them.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
Now I really want to know. Damn.
A Dead Diehard
Member
Funyarinpa
Member
edit: Double post somehow.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
if its really minor and swept under the rug PM me.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
Maybe that won't bother me too much. Maybe an eyeroll or two.
Yeah. I'll take one too though I don't care how spoilerish it is.
sackboy2197
Member
I'm still looking for that 20th LE artwork.
Funyarinpa
Member
Yeah me too.
I see where you're coming from, but I can't say I feel like giving the writers the benefit of the doubt here. I don't think any of what you're describing is a deliberate, natural progression of someone who's trying to come to grips with their sexual identity but rather, a mix of Kanji just "being himself" interspersed with some "humorous" jokes. Which is still quite enjoyable, but far from progressive. Honestly, I think you're ascribing more depth onto him than he actually has. He isn't that complicated, and I don't think they particularly thought it through beyond his character development. They predictably, make fun of it in Persona 4: Arena so again, they don't particularly care about his sexuality being nuanced. Gay = funny.
One last thing. "His friends joking around with him" literally just amounts to Yosuke making cracks at his expense. Chie even calls him out on it once (and sadly only once), and Rise is super considerate towards him behind the scenes.
All the more reason for Rise being best gril.
As for the spoiler talk, I literally just clicked on the last page of the spoiler thread accidentaly before realizing my mistake and rushing the fuck out of there. I swear to god I'm gonna end up spoiling myself one of these days through my sheer lack of attention. Guess it's time to use that method Zolo posted to hide threads but I'm not sure if that'll still work when I'm at work.
Funyarinpa
Member
I feel like sexual identity struggles as a whole were pushed onto him by society since he didn't fit into the gender role. I can see that Kanji never really had sexuality struggles, but I think I can definitely see that there's a sincere angle about being accepted against gender roles to Kanji's character.