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[Sophia]

I actually like the Shadow Operatives plotline, but the problem is when you introduce a plotline like that you have to go all the way with it. There's no turning back, no ignoring it. It's a franchise wide fundamental change.

And it's clear Atlus isn't willing to go all the way with it. Which makes it incredibly disappointing.

 

[Setsu00]

I mean, this is my problem. Why does Mitsuru have to focus on Shadows and Persona? Why does Akihiko go touring the world? The characters are way too hung up on the events of Persona 3. Personally, I just want them to grow up.

I guess it makes sense for Mitsuru to focus on Shadows and Personas due to her family history, but Junpei, Yukari and Ken felt out of place in Ultimax.

And it's clear Atlus isn't willing to go all the way with it. Which makes it incredibly disappointing.

I absolutely agree with that. The spin-off games have quite a bit of narrative potential, but Atlus doesn't go all out with them for whatever reason and it is so, so annoying.

 

[Dantis]

But like, are they supposed to forget that shadows and personas are still a thing? It makes sense that they would want to protect the world from such things after what they went through. It was just the execution of that idea that was lacking. And Mitsuru's basically the head of a company now, right? Seems grown up to me.

Nope nope nope.

As far as they should be aware, Shadows are gone.

And there was nothing grown up about Arena.

I actually like the Shadow Operatives plotline, but the problem is when you introduce a plotline like that you have to go all the way with it. There's no turning back, no ignoring it. It's a franchise wide fundamental change.

And it's clear Atlus isn't willing to go all the way with it. Which makes it incredibly disappointing.

Going 'all the way' with it would be a full tonal shift. It would most likely be a bad move for sales, I'd imagine.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

I just figure that after the end of P3

Spoiler

They all agreed at what great big failures they were and decided to try and fix that

 

[Dantis]

I just figure that after the end of P3

Spoiler

They all agreed at what great big failures they were and decided to try and fix that

*fart noise*

The end of The Answer implies that they just move on with their lives. The idea that Akihiko travels the world to get stronger is awful and absurd, whilst Mitsuru's story seems like Persona 3 Mitsuru's childish fantasy.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

I mean, this is my problem. Why does Mitsuru have to focus on Shadows and Persona? Why does Akihiko go touring the world? The characters are way too hung up on the events of Persona 3. Personally, I just want them to grow up.

Bitch, the world almost ended! You don't just shrug that off in a year or two!

Even if it caused a huge disconnect, I applaud Mitsuru for trying to be proactive, even if it was to assuage her overly guilty conscience.

 

[Sophia]

I guess it makes sense for Mitsuru to focus on Shadows and Personas due to her family history, but Junpei, Yukari and Ken felt out of place in Ultimax.



I absolutely agree with that. The spin-off games have quite a bit of narrative potential, but Atlus doesn't go all out with them for whatever reason and it is so, so annoying.

Going 'all the way' with it would be a full tonal shift. It would most likely be a bad move for sales, I'd imagine.

Not necessarily, and it's why it's best kept to the spinoffs rather than the main installments. But it could be done without issue if they actually wanted to do it. Ultimax shows they don't really want to tho.

Spoiler

The Persona 4 cast are basically no different from how they started the first Arena game, and that's disappointing. The Persona 3 cast do go places, mainly thanks to the introduction of Labrys, and the dynamic she provides to the group. But they basically leave the Shadow Operatives plotline hanging with no conclusion or no real continuation. They're just kind of there, to handle issues related to Shadows. Except when the story of the mainline games dictates that they can't get involved.

Nope nope nope.

As far as they should be aware, Shadows are gone.

And there was nothing grown up about Arena.

Neither group (P3 or P4 cast) have reason to believe shadows are gone, given the info they received during their respective storylines.

 

[Lunar15]

It's a fighting game so I don't lose sleep.

 

[CrimsonFist]

I guess it makes sense for Mitsuru to focus on Shadows and Personas due to her family history, but Junpei, Yukari and Ken felt out of place in Ultimax.

Hopefully at some point they realise that not every playable character needs to feature in the story.

P4D was better about that, or at least the DLC characters weren't forced into the story.

Spoiler

Miku really should have been though

 

[OrionX]

Bitch, the world almost ended! You don't just shrug that off in a year or two!

Even if it caused a huge disconnect, I applaud Mitsuru for trying to be proactive, even if it was to assuage her overly guilty conscience.

This! After everything that happened to them and their leader, it doesn't seem realistic that they would just be like "Welp, that's that. Everything's solved! Let's go be mature adults that only worry about paying bills and making babies!"

The idea that Akihiko travels the world to get stronger is awful and absurd

It gave me ripped, shirtless Akihiko, so I'm okay with whatever nonsense they had to come up with to explain it.

 

[barybll]

Lot of discussion for a storyline that might never be picked up again

 

[A Dead Diehard]

Neither group (P3 or P4 cast) have reason to believe shadows are gone, given the info they received during their respective storylines.

Especially considering the P4 group has a Shadow running around the human world as one of them.

This! After everything that happened to them and their leader, it doesn't seem realistic that they would just be like "Welp, that's that. Everything's solved! Let's go be mature adults that only worry about paying bills and making babies!"

In Japan? Dream on! :v

Spoiler

Seriously though, another reason they can't be followed. Next generation characters should be restricted to fankids.

Lot of discussion for a storyline that might never be picked up again

It happens enough with the idea of P3MC coming back. Shadow Ops are just the other side of that coin.

 

[Chrono Helix]

-The Shadow Operatives stuff is the absolute worst thing that the Arena games introduced.
Now with every game that is going to ignore this horrendous plot point they are going to have to come up with an excuse for why they weren't involved with the events of said game.

They're just like the Avengers!

 

[KoroEunectes]

So P5 will be at Paris Games Week. Could just be a booth with existing trailers/banners though.

Good to see that the game will be at an EU event.

And yeah. Given that P5 takes place in the capitol, the only reason the SO's aren't involved is either cause they disbanded by then (wouldn't stop them), don't exist in P5's continuity (unlikely), or are as maddeningly incompetent as the psychos from Ergo Research.

Wish it was the one of the these but knowing Atlus it is probably the third one.

The Shadow Operatives stuff is indeed cancerous and should never have been brought into the series to begin with, yes, but the other two plot points can be resolved without twisting the existing Persona universe around by 180°. If they want to continue the Arena series and based on Wada's recent comment they do want to continue the Arena games, that's the way to do it from my perspective. I just don't see them getting rid of the story mode in Arena 3.

They probably won't get rid of them. (sadly)
Can't wait to see the BS excuses they have to come up with for why the Shadow Operatives weren't involved.

I actually like the Shadow Operatives plotline, but the problem is when you introduce a plotline like that you have to go all the way with it. There's no turning back, no ignoring it. It's a franchise wide fundamental change.

And it's clear Atlus isn't willing to go all the way with it. Which makes it incredibly disappointing.

I don't see what is good about introducing a plot point that would undermine any new character that shows up in a later main entry.
Any shadow/god related problem would just be solved by the SO making the actual main characters feel useless.
And even if you make them part of the SO they just end feeling like lackeys for Mitsuru who have to do some cleanup duty because the big guns are busy.
You basically turn every game into a P3 sequel/spin off and I don't think you can really write your way around that if you want to have the SO be a large presence in the Persona Universe.

They're just like the Avengers!

I think even the Avengers have more of an excuse not to get involved in every movie.
At least there the events usually only take place in a day or a week.
They also usually move to several locations over the course of the movie.
With P4 & P5 weird stuff happens like every month and in the exact same town/city.
Over the course of a year they couldn't afford to send like an intern to check the place out?

 

[Jintor]

honestly if the operatives don't interfere in tokyo it's probably just because they're hamstrung by bureacracy (weren't they feuding with the national police in Ultimax?)

 

[Lynx_7]

I think they just heard the rumors about some kind of demonic war going on there, the end of the world and a bunch of Lucifer business or whatever and were like "Tokyo? Nah man, we're not touching that place with a ten foot pole". Nyx was already hard enough, bet they don't wanna mess with the big daddy of them all and Tokyo's his turf.

Spoiler

The alternative answer is Atlus/Hashino doesn't care about a fighting game spin-off's story.

It's a fighting game so I don't lose sleep.

This guy's got the right idea.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

honestly if the operatives don't interfere in tokyo it's probably just because they're hamstrung by bureacracy (weren't they feuding with the national police in Ultimax?)

Public Safety. But iirc, the SO's were let off the hook by a Reasonable Authority Figure™ as part of the limp ending.

It is just a little annoying that Arena was advertised as a direct P4 sequel

Annoying, disingenuous...
maybe even scummy.

 

[KoroEunectes]

It's a fighting game so I don't lose sleep.

I think they just heard the rumors about some kind of demonic war going on there, the end of the world and a bunch of Lucifer business or whatever and were like "Tokyo? Nah man, we're not touching that place with a ten foot pole". Nyx was already hard enough, bet they don't wanna mess with the big daddy of them all and Tokyo's his turf.

Spoiler

The alternative answer is Atlus/Hashino doesn't care about a fighting game spin-off's story.

This guy's got the right idea.

It is just a little annoying that Arena was advertised as a direct P4 sequel

 

[Setsu00]

It is just a little annoying that Arena was advertised as a direct P4 sequel

Absolutely. The story was one of Arena's main selling points and it didn't live up to the standards of the series.

 

[OrionX]

Absolutely. The story was one of Arena's main selling points and it didn't live up to the standards of the series.

Yeah, I've never been interested in Fighting games, but I got it purely out of my love for all things Persona. Needless to say it was a letdown story-wise, which was the main reason I got it. But then I still got Ultimax anyway, knowing it would be the same experience lol. Then I got Dancing All Night, even though I'd never played or cared about rhythm games before... *sigh* I was like an addict desperate for any Persona fix even though I knew they weren't giving me the high-quality stuff. XD

But it's okay, because P5 is coming, and it will wash away any franchise fatigue I might have!

Spoiler

And get me to subsequently buy Arena Ultimania 3 and Dancing All Year and PQ2... pls send help.

 

[Sophia]

I don't see what is good about introducing a plot point that would undermine any new character that shows up in a later main entry.
Any shadow/god related problem would just be solved by the SO making the actual main characters feel useless.
And even if you make them part of the SO they just end feeling like lackeys for Mitsuru who have to do some cleanup duty because the big guns are busy.
You basically turn every game into a P3 sequel/spin off and I don't think you can really write your way around that if you want to have the SO be a large presence in the Persona Universe.

Aye. That's the problem with it. You have to be willing to go the full distance. But they couldn't even really do much with it in it's own storyline.

In fact, I can't help but wonder if the entire Shadow Operatives plotline is unnecessary for Arena/Ultimax. Mitsuru/Aigis had reasons to go find Labrys regardless. Akihiko and Fuuka would have joined their friends regardless. Junpei lucked out getting to Inaba, and Yukari/Ken/Koromaru wouldn't have hesitated to jump on saving the others. The Shadow Operatives feel like a set up for a payoff that never actually happens and just made us mistakenly wonder what role they'd have in Persona 5, if any.

 

[Rutger]

All the spinoffs in my eyes can be easily separated from the main game's canon, it seems like it's being done intentionally despite what Atlus says.

I'm okay with this honestly. The main games are their own self contained stories where effort is actually put into the story, while the spinoffs are nonsense that lets us see our favorite characters in a different kind of game. So something like the Shadow Operatives, which likely exists solely to make it easier to bring everyone together in crossovers doesn't bother me because I don't look at the spinoffs as a true continuation of these character's stories, I'm just happy to have a fighting game with Persona characters.

So what I'm saying is, I'm ready for Persona 5 Arena with Xrd graphics.

 

[Mediking]

Back to Persona 1. Loaded up the game and is listening to that amazing theme for the Agastya Tree. I know I said this before but its so good. So peaceful and soothing.

Oh and here's me party: Me, Nanjo, Mark, Yukino, Elly.

???? "Mark did a seductive slow dance."???? What the?! And did Elly seriously just offer a demon some MILK? Hahahaaha

 

[StarSketch]

Well at least he's not dancing crazy.

 

[Setsu00]

Yeah, I've never been interested in Fighting games, but I got it purely out of my love for all things Persona. Needless to say it was a letdown story-wise, which was the main reason I got it. But then I still got Ultimax anyway, knowing it would be the same experience lol. Then I got Dancing All Night, even though I'd never played or cared about rhythm games before... *sigh* I was like an addict desperate for any Persona fix even though I knew they weren't giving me the high-quality stuff. XD

But it's okay, because P5 is coming, and it will wash away any franchise fatigue I might have!

Spoiler

And get me to subsequently buy Arena Ultimania 3 and Dancing All Year and PQ2... pls send help.

That's exactly my problem with Arena. I suck at fighting games and Arena 1 was dead on arrival in Europe as well, so the only thing I could enjoy was the story. Arena 1 isn't even that offensive outside of its treatment of characters like Yukiko or Kanji - Labrys was handled pretty well and it was intriguing enough to get my hyped for Arena 2. PQ actually manages to tell a decent story in its final act that crosses over the themes of P3 and P4 rather well.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

That's exactly my problem with Arena. I suck at fighting games and Arena 1 was dead on arrival in Europe as well, so the only thing I could enjoy was the story. Arena 1 isn't even that offensive outside of its treatment of characters like Yukiko or Kanji - Labrys was handled pretty well and it was intriguing enough to get my hyped for Arena 2. PQ actually manages to tell a decent story in its final act that crosses over the themes of P3 and P4 rather well.

Then again, PQ has the advantage of being an RPG, while Ultimax has to squash its characterization into two (and a bit) fighting game stories.

 

[Sophia]

Ultimax isn't even that bad. It's just that...

Spoiler

we tend to judge it for what it didn't do rather than what it did. And in the Persona 4 storyline it did a whole lot of nothing. The P3 side was better, but it still felt disappointing after the buildup from the first Arena.

 

[OrionX]

PQ actually manages to tell a decent story in its final act that crosses over the themes of P3 and P4 rather well.

Ironically, I've had PQ for forever but it's the only spinoff I haven't gotten around to playing, and it's probably the one I would enjoy the most of the bunch. lol, I need to fix that soon.

 

[Setsu00]

Ironically, I've had PQ for forever but it's the only spinoff I haven't gotten around to playing, and it's probably the one I would enjoy the most of the bunch. lol, I need to fix that soon.

I'm probably giving PQ too much credit, but what little story it had was super enjoyable for me. It helps that the writer for P4's S.Links was one of PQ's scenario writers.

Ultimax isn't even that bad. It's just that...

Spoiler

we tend to judge it for what it didn't do rather than what it did. And in the Persona 4 storyline it did a whole lot of nothing. The P3 side was better, but it still felt disappointing after the buildup from the first Arena.

I still don't understand why they had to split the scenario into two diverging routes.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

Ultimax isn't even that bad. It's just that...

Spoiler

we tend to judge it for what it didn't do rather than what it did. And in the Persona 4 storyline it did a whole lot of nothing. The P3 side was better, but it still felt disappointing after the buildup from the first Arena.

Oh, it'll always have the saving grace of its gameplay. I doubt there's anyone here that'll argue against that.
But yes, if any word could describe Ultimax' story, it would be "disappointing".

"Wasteful" works too, but it doesn't have as much oomph if it's not punctuated by "dogshit".

I still don't understand why they had to split the scenario into two diverging routes.

I think because they only way they know how to build up one element is to marginalize the other.

 

[CrimsonFist]

I'm probably giving PQ too much credit, but what little story it had was super enjoyable for me. It helps that the writer for P4's S.Links was one of PQ's scenario writers.



I still don't understand why they had to split the scenario into two diverging routes.

PQ has by far the strongest spinoff story, even if it is very backloaded, a lot of the character interactions throughout the earlier game are fun as well.

I guess the split would be because they had far too many characters to fit into one story, and even splitting it into two routes, most of them still had no real reason to be there.

 

[the_sun_king]

PQ has by far the strongest spinoff story, even if it is very backloaded, a lot of the character interactions throughout the earlier game are fun as well.

Not to mention the Flanderization of the characters. But, I do agree; out of all the spinoffs, PQ's narrative is the least offensive.

 

[Zolo]

I've only played a bit of PQ, but it seems to also help it seems more comedy-oriented than P4 Arena which seemed to take itself more seriously.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

I've only played a bit of PQ, but it seems to also help it seems more comedy-oriented than P4 Arena which seemed to take itself more seriously.

The thing is Arena and Ultimax seem to be schizophrenic with their comedy. Q gets progressively more and more serious, then it's the final dungeon and I'm filled with this "YEAH!" feeling of how right everything seems, especially next to the other spinoffs.

 

[Setsu00]

I've only played a bit of PQ, but it seems to also help it seems more comedy-oriented than P4 Arena which seemed to take itself more seriously.

Q goes into full drama mode during its final dungeon, but the rest of the game is indeed pretty lighthearted.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ultimax isn't even that bad. It's just that...

Spoiler

we tend to judge it for what it didn't do rather than what it did. And in the Persona 4 storyline it did a whole lot of nothing. The P3 side was better, but it still felt disappointing after the buildup from the first Arena.

Disregarding plot stuff, I really hate the game's writing

It's like bottom tier shonen

 

[Dantis]

Disregarding plot stuff, I really hate the game's writing

It's like bottom tier shonen

Yup. It's bad.
The stuff involving a certain P4 villain and Narukami is amongst Persona's lowest moments.

 

[Sophia]

Disregarding plot stuff, I really hate the game's writing

It's like bottom tier shonen

I don't think you've seen too many bottom tier shonen shows then.

Sarcasm aside, the writing is pretty bad on the Persona 4 side. Even when you don't compare it to the much superior main franchise. I do feel the Persona 3 side is much better, however.

Yup. It's bad.
The stuff involving a certain P4 villain and Narukami is amongst Persona's lowest moments.

Spoiler

That scene was pretty lame, yeah. The two Personas merging together doesn't even make sense for the series. Labrys just straight up out beating Kagutsuchi in the Persona 3 side was much better and more thematically appropriate. Her scenes with Sho were also better then the "true end" between Yu and Sho.

 

[Zolo]

I don't think you've seen too many bottom tier shonen shows then.

Sarcasm aside, the writing is pretty bad on the Persona 4 side. Even when you don't compare it to the much superior main franchise. I do feel the Persona 3 side is much better, however.

That's the noncanon side though.

Spoiler

Which is a shame since while I don't like the character, Sho genuinely had better dialogue with Labrys than Yu.

 

[Sophia]

That's the noncanon side though.

Spoiler

Which is a shame since while I don't like the character, Sho genuinely had better dialogue with Labrys than Yu.

Ultimately, it all goes back to the fact that Arena and Ultimax are just Persona 3 Drama CDs quickly re-purposed for Persona 4. Which is why the Persona 3 characters (for the most part) get competent writing, where as the Persona 4 characters get turned into caricatures of themselves. Also explaining why there are failed payoffs regarding the Shadow Operatives and such, and why the P4 cast don't have any real character development.

 

[PK Gaming]

I don't think you've seen too many bottom tier shonen shows then.

Sarcasm aside, the writing is pretty bad on the Persona 4 side. Even when you don't compare it to the much superior main franchise. I do feel the Persona 3 side is much better, however.

I've read through the entirety of Bleach so I think I win this round!

P3's side is a definite improvement, with good scenes that actually develop characters like Ken and Junpei in ways I appreciate. That said, the overall quality is still... undesirable. Labrys I feel, isn't nearly as great as she was before. She's basically joined Yu's harem, and she's extremely repetitive as a character. "I've found people who are willing accept me!" makes up 45% of her dialogue.

Spoiler

I actually think Labrys straight up beating Kagutsuchi is a bad thing. There's no real set up for it, and it doesn't make sense.

Still, there's no denying that P3's side is a step above P4. P4's side is straight up unforgivable.

That's the noncanon side though.

Does it really matter?

 

[Sophia]

I've read through the entirety of Bleach so I think I win this round!

P3's side is a definite improvement, with good scenes that actually develop characters like Ken and Junpei in ways I appreciate. That said, the overall quality is still... undesirable. Labrys I feel, isn't nearly as great as she was before. She's basically joined Yu's harem, and she's extremely repetitive as a character. "I've found people who are willing accept me!" makes up 45% of her dialogue.

Spoiler

I actually think Labrys straight up beating Kagutsuchi is a bad thing. There's no real set up for it, and it doesn't make sense.

Still, there's no denying that P3's side is a step above P4. P4's side is straight up unforgivable.

Nah. She's not really there, especially

Spoiler

with all the shipteasing they do with her and Sho.

I still feel Labrys gets some pretty fantastic moments in Ultimax tho.

And regarding the spoiled.

Spoiler

A combined finale where Yu, Adachi, Aigis, and Labrys fought Kagutuschi probably would have made far more sense than just one person. That being said, Labrys's side was virtually a "power of bonds" moment in the style of P3 rather than P4, with some help from Shadow Labrys.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

Does it really matter?

Nothing really matters
Anyone can see
Nothing really matters

Nothing really matters to me(diocre Atlus writers)
Either way, the sales flow...

Nah. She's not really there, especially

Spoiler

with all the shipteasing they do with her and Sho.

*fist clench meme*

TO BE FAIR.

Spoiler

There was setup.

It was just for someone else, or at least that's the only reason anyone was excited. :/

 

[CrimsonFist]

Spoiler

Kagutsuchi is a bad thing. There's no real set up for it, and it doesn't make sense.

 

[PK Gaming]

Nah. She's not really there, especially

Spoiler

with all the shipteasing they do with her and Sho.

I still feel Labrys gets some pretty fantastic moments in Ultimax tho.

Sophia. Sophia. Labrys spends almost the entirety of her story mode thinking about Yu. When she gets negged by Shadow Yu she lets it bother her forever until she meets the real deal, and feels an immense amount of relief when she finds out he's a nice boy. She even takes semi-relationship advice from Ken on how to approach him.

Yosuke and Sho straight up got NTR'd.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

Sophia. Sophia. Labrys spends almost the entirety of her story mode thinking about Yu. When she gets negged by Shadow Yu she lets it bother her forever until she meets the real deal, and feels an immense amount of relief when she finds out he's a nice boy. She even takes semi-relationship advice from Ken on how to approach him.

Yosuke and Sho straight up got NTR'd.

Teddie bearly missed the same fate by omission.

Looks like we can give Ultimax shit for what it did, along with what it didn't do.

 

[Sophia]

Sophia. Sophia. Labrys spends almost the entirety of her story mode thinking about Yu. When she gets negged by Shadow Yu she lets it bother her forever until she meets the real deal, and feels an immense amount of relief when she finds out he's a nice boy. She even takes semi-relationship advice from Ken on how to approach him.

Yosuke and Sho straight up got NTR'd.

Without a hint of romance at all.

It's like seeing a non-romance social link from the point of the social link character. ;p

Also, "almost the entirety of" is more like less than half.

 

[KoroEunectes]

PQ has by far the strongest spinoff story, even if it is very backloaded, a lot of the character interactions throughout the earlier game are fun as well.

I guess the split would be because they had far too many characters to fit into one story, and even splitting it into two routes, most of them still had no real reason to be there.

PQ's writing can get pretty bad at times and there is some Flanderization going with some of the characters but honestly it comes a lot closer to feeling like the P3/P4 games than the Arena games ever do.
I like that the teams actually learn something from each other. And there are a lot of good moments were the characters just sit down and talk.
It also feels that the 2 teams are equals in that game and that they never try to act like one is superior to the other.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

PQ's writing can get pretty bad at times and there is some Flanderization going with some of the characters but honestly it comes a lot closer to feeling like the P3/P4 games than the Arena games ever do.
I like that the teams actually learn something from each other. And there are a lot of good moments were the characters just sit down and talk.
It also feels that the 2 teams are equals in that game and that they never try to act like one is superior to the other.

The worst I can say about Q's writing is that it makes a bad first impression.

Although now I wonder... how well did Q do, financially? Enough for Atlus to consider going back to it in the future?

 

[Mediking]

I hope Persona 5 doesn't go through the classic JRPG thing where the laat section just keeps getting dragged out and doesn't want to end. I'm playing a Tales game and this game REFUSES to end. Like everything is set up to end but the game keeps finding the most dumbest reasons to drag its feet. "... But why are you still playing?" Combat is still crazy fun.