CrazyTank940
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Maybe she's on the other side of the party bus
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Persona Community Thread: The Butterfly Effect
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Maybe she's on the other side of the party bus
It's funny that people are talking about Bioshock Infinite in this thread, mainly because after beating it and reading reactions to its "revolutionarily deep story", it made me think of Persona.
I'm not going to claim that Persona games have the best or deepest stories, because I really don't think they do. But at the end of the day I felt that both P3 and P4 (haven't played the other games yet, sorry!) actually ended up exploring their themes to a satisfying conclusion, moreso than Bioshock Infinite did. I don't want to spoil Infinite in here, but the only thing I took away from that game is that the writers focused more on the twist than they did actually exploring any theme that anyone could find relatable.
I enjoyed the game, but people claiming it reached the heights of novel writing, just because it mentioned slavery and talked about religion kind just kind of made me chuckle. Its themes are lightly sprinkled on top, not core to the experience. Persona games are not the only games that actually make good on their themes and actually relate them to gameplay, but I think they're notable, at least.
Honestly, if you want a shooter that actually relates its themes to gameplay: go play Spec Ops: The Line. It's a mediocre shooter, but damn if it doesn't make you think.
I'm not going to claim that Persona games have the best or deepest stories, because I really don't think they do. But at the end of the day I felt that both P3 and P4 (haven't played the other games yet, sorry!) actually ended up exploring their themes to a satisfying conclusion, moreso than Bioshock Infinite did. I don't want to spoil Infinite in here, but the only thing I took away from that game is that the writers focused more on the twist than they did actually exploring any theme that anyone could find relatable.
I enjoyed the game, but people claiming it reached the heights of novel writing, just because it mentioned slavery and talked about religion kind just kind of made me chuckle. Its themes are lightly sprinkled on top, not core to the experience. Persona games are not the only games that actually make good on their themes and actually relate them to gameplay, but I think they're notable, at least.
Honestly, if you want a shooter that actually relates its themes to gameplay: go play Spec Ops: The Line. It's a mediocre shooter, but damn if it doesn't make you think.
The coolest part of BI's story, to me, had nothing to do with it's "themes" and more to do with how the ending changes your perspective of the game. Assuming you found most of the voice recordings and understood what the story was actually about.
But I don't want to derail us any further :B
But I don't want to derail us any further :B
I hope so.
buddha0991
Member
I wouldnt ever want to board that bus...
I want a Street Fighter X Idolm@ster game
Even that aspect wasn't that grand to me cause I've seen the same twist pulled in other games. They just don't have the same widespread publicity that BI does.
I give it kudos for having said plot in a AAAAAAA big budget shooter, but it's less impressive when you've been to the same rodeo 3 times before.
I agree, in a way. The 'twist' was still pretty cool and unique, but not as grandiose as other games who did similar things. It's definitely not a one dimensional thing, though. My second favorite thing about BI was the atmosphere, and exploring. I spent most of my time exploring, looting, and avoiding the combat for as long as possible :lol
The game just felt super polished, minus the actual .. gameplay. Which sucks, but I still loved it.
buddha0991
Member
I want a Men in Black X Devil Summoner X Nascar game
Someone spotted this in the Philippines:
Beelzy looks so out of place.
This, though to be fair, it's gameplay is much better than the original Bioshocks.
BI is a great game, but not the game of the generation like some critics are trying to make it out to be. Then again that's the case for most AAA games, they're almost always universally overrated for some strange reason. Then finally after a few years(or months like D3) people come to their senses and start to actually criticize the games faults.
System Shock 2 >>>>>>>>>>> All Bioshock games. That games atmosphere is unmatched. Scared me shitless
Whoa, no way. Polar opposite of Inception (which I liked, but had the same problem with). Have you seen the a infinite spoiler thread? The game's logic holds together more than most sci-fi stories that deal in the same thing. It's almost iron-clad.
I liken it to more of a M.Night Shyamalan movie. Not in terms of quality, but just in terms of the fact that the twist is really the only takeaway. It's a lot of shock factor, not a lot of substance. Sure, it changes your viewpoint of everything else in the game, but I didn't find that particularly meaningful. Also, story-writing wise, it ends before the "return", meaning we don't really see the impact of said twist on any of the characters, thus rendering it kind of pointless.
Not saying that every game needs to have some kind of deep, philosophical meaning, but for a game that sure TRIES to have one, it really falls short.
Not saying that every game needs to have some kind of deep, philosophical meaning, but for a game that sure TRIES to have one, it really falls short.
There is one part that makes no sense though
At the beginning of the game where you see the sign that says "give us the girl and remove the debt" and see a dead body on a chair. Now supposedly Booker made the whole thing up about getting Elizabeth to pay of his debt due to interdimensional travel and his brain repatching things from his mind. The two dudes that were with him were also surprised at the fact that he made up his own reasoning for being there, so there's no justifiable reason for that note and dead body to even be in that lighthouse.
It really isn't. There are some significant flaws in the logic.
The lette's killed him and put the note there to reinforce booker's goal. All but confirmed by a picture in Rosalind's house that shows the lighthouse with the words, "The only obstacle"
There are other, actual holes though. Plot holes don't bother me though. Dropped or pointless themes do, though. Persona's stories are riddled with some weird inconsistencies, but I feel like they convey some interesting themes and make you feel satisfied at the end.
Honestly, the whole thing smelled sour when you had Levine saying on one hand that he wanted to tell a deep story, but on the other he was conducting surveys with frat houses and other people who couldn't care less about deep, political or religious undertones.
Don't want to make this 100% bioshock spoiler discussion, particularly when there are multiple threads for that. Sorry for the derailment, even if I tried to loop it back to persona as much as possible.
Main reason I held off at launch, moreso than the lack of games. Faulty nintendo tech is like a weird oxymoron to me. I've come to expect so much more out of them due to their performance in past generations. It's a damn shame.
I definitely didn't find it to have a philosophical meaning, at all really.
Big spoilers ..
I just find it interesting that the whole thing ends up being an attempt by the Lutece's to continue or even ensure their existence. That is ultimately what the game is. When you choose heads or tails at the beginning of the game, you can see the number of times that Booker had guessed. That's the number of the times that the Lutece's had attempted to achieve their desired outcome: Eliminating the existence of Comstock, and thereby eliminating his murder of Lutece to begin with. They could presumably only do this via Elizabeth willfully eliminating all occurrences of Booker choosing to undergo the baptism.
I guess the only philosophical meaning the game truly has at that point is to consider that Booker is a believable and arguably good human being, but one choice turns him into a radical and insane dictator. But this point is blunted by the fact that, as Lunar15 has pointed out, the game makes no attempt to show Booker after the Lutece's goal is accomplished, leaving the player with no true example of who Booker would be without the Baptism.
So, my fascination with the game's story comes from the Luteces. I'm slightly reminded of Dark Souls in that this storyline is almost completely obscured from the player during the game, it must be sought out and digested outside of the gameplay in order for it to make any sense. Both games are also atmospherically engrossing.
The comparison stops there, unfortunately, because the gameplay of Dark Souls can hold the game up on its own without a storyline. You can't say this about BI.
I guess the only philosophical meaning the game truly has at that point is to consider that Booker is a believable and arguably good human being, but one choice turns him into a radical and insane dictator. But this point is blunted by the fact that, as Lunar15 has pointed out, the game makes no attempt to show Booker after the Lutece's goal is accomplished, leaving the player with no true example of who Booker would be without the Baptism.
So, my fascination with the game's story comes from the Luteces. I'm slightly reminded of Dark Souls in that this storyline is almost completely obscured from the player during the game, it must be sought out and digested outside of the gameplay in order for it to make any sense. Both games are also atmospherically engrossing.
The comparison stops there, unfortunately, because the gameplay of Dark Souls can hold the game up on its own without a storyline. You can't say this about BI.
Booker isn't a good person though. Dude is a murderous, racist, douchebag, that sold his daughter because of gambling debts. He and Comstock are exactly the same type of person, but channel their energies in different ways.
Nobody is perfect. The reason I say he's a good human being is because as you play the game he clearly expresses guilt and regret about his actions. Comstock does none of that.
About BI...
Didn't get the impression that the Lutece's were doing that to survive, but to correct their own sin in kidnapping Anna to begin with.
Every recording dealing with this has the female Lutece hate that she did this and was asked to do this, and their first priority when they were trapped in their predicament was to use it to correct their mistake, which was kidnapping her to begin with.
And yeah, it's interesting to note what all the choices and everything boil down to: Nothing you do really matters, as it was going to happen anyway. The coin flip, while not under your control shows, them that it'll always wind up being the same. I also believe that each time Booker has a "flashback" to himself in his apartment, it's another time that the current Booker "dies". Almost all of these scenes take place in near death, or probably would have been sure death experiences. If the Lutece's can drop Booker at the docks originally to start this little experiment of theirs, it's probably little problem to drop a fresh Booker from another reality into where he just died, and as soon as he reappears, his memories sync up again. This probably happens every time the player dies when Elizabeth isn't around too, as the situation is very similar.
Still, no matter how much I liked the story, Levine is in danger of Shayalaman's(whatever the spelling is) problem too: Going in expecting the twist. Hell, in this case, the overall twist is almost the same thing: What you as the player does in terms of choice doesn't matter. It's not accident that any time you're given a choice, it doesn't effect anything overall at all(constants and variables). In that way, in this game "Press x to *****" prompts, all of them, were this game's "Would you kindly..."
And to the above, the biggest difference between Booker and Comstock is that Booker does feel regret for what he does/did, and ultimately tries to stop it. It was Booker that went to the baptism. Comstock takes it believing his sins weren't his fault, and places blame on the nearest scapegoat. Booker realizes that nothing can absolve him of what he did, and goes into a downward spiral about it. Even selling his daughter, while reprehensible, he tries to stop, and in fact by doing that it's the sole reason that Anna gained those powers in the first place.
Every recording dealing with this has the female Lutece hate that she did this and was asked to do this, and their first priority when they were trapped in their predicament was to use it to correct their mistake, which was kidnapping her to begin with.
And yeah, it's interesting to note what all the choices and everything boil down to: Nothing you do really matters, as it was going to happen anyway. The coin flip, while not under your control shows, them that it'll always wind up being the same. I also believe that each time Booker has a "flashback" to himself in his apartment, it's another time that the current Booker "dies". Almost all of these scenes take place in near death, or probably would have been sure death experiences. If the Lutece's can drop Booker at the docks originally to start this little experiment of theirs, it's probably little problem to drop a fresh Booker from another reality into where he just died, and as soon as he reappears, his memories sync up again. This probably happens every time the player dies when Elizabeth isn't around too, as the situation is very similar.
Still, no matter how much I liked the story, Levine is in danger of Shayalaman's(whatever the spelling is) problem too: Going in expecting the twist. Hell, in this case, the overall twist is almost the same thing: What you as the player does in terms of choice doesn't matter. It's not accident that any time you're given a choice, it doesn't effect anything overall at all(constants and variables). In that way, in this game "Press x to *****" prompts, all of them, were this game's "Would you kindly..."
And to the above, the biggest difference between Booker and Comstock is that Booker does feel regret for what he does/did, and ultimately tries to stop it. It was Booker that went to the baptism. Comstock takes it believing his sins weren't his fault, and places blame on the nearest scapegoat. Booker realizes that nothing can absolve him of what he did, and goes into a downward spiral about it. Even selling his daughter, while reprehensible, he tries to stop, and in fact by doing that it's the sole reason that Anna gained those powers in the first place.
@Meia, BI spoils
@Trying to correct sins: Yeah, that definitely could be too. Elizabeth is the most interesting piece of the puzzle. Her powers are crazy. One of the coolest theories from the spoiler thread is that she's the "universe"'s self-healing mechanism. She's given powers to either remedy the 'problem' or to choose a path which time will follow.
I felt like the Lutece's caught on to that and they needed to ensure she achieves those powers to ensure that time didn't get too fucked up.
Regardless, I'm WAY more interested in that story and the Lutece's involvement than I am in Comstock and his craziness, or the difference between Comstock and Booker.
I felt like the Lutece's caught on to that and they needed to ensure she achieves those powers to ensure that time didn't get too fucked up.
Regardless, I'm WAY more interested in that story and the Lutece's involvement than I am in Comstock and his craziness, or the difference between Comstock and Booker.
That's the thing. The actual "story" is about the lutece's, not Booker, or even Elizabeth. It's their quest for redemption/survival, and they're the only ones that take anything out of it.
No they're not?
Elizabeth, Booker, and Comstock die. Along with the Lutece's, those are the only main characters in the game.
Still have no idea what this is.
No, the paradox causes Elizabeth (Anna, really) and Booker to survive, which is the scene shown at the end of the game after the credits roll.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
Can we talk about how good Darkness is? It's a testament to the fact that not all final boss themes need to be sweeping, epic concertos as long as they're catchy and well-composed. It's just the right amount of exciting and pumping to fit the atmosphere of a final battle, and yet is low-key enough that you can put it on any time just for a listen.
I still prefer The Battle For Everyone's Souls, but Darkness hits that sweetspot in my brain that few other songs can.
I still prefer The Battle For Everyone's Souls, but Darkness hits that sweetspot in my brain that few other songs can.
You might need to read the OP in the spoiler thread because that's a crucial scene in understanding what actually happened.
Or playing it again could work, I guess.
buddha0991
Member
did anyone watch the latest devil survivor 2 animu thing, I think I am starting to like this better than the game.
BTW this baller as shit ghost in my avatar is my waifu, look at how fucking badass that thing is, just look at it.
BTW this baller as shit ghost in my avatar is my waifu, look at how fucking badass that thing is, just look at it.
I think the game is AAA worthy, and I also think it's worth it's $50-60 pricetag. But, I do agree with you in that a lot of video game cynicism is just really stifling and takes the wind out of the enjoyment of games.
I wrote a summary of my thoughts in a thread, earlier, and there was some good discussion in it: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=515692
Just note I am clumsy in the OP with my use of "cynicism" vs being critical, which are two different things, but I do not treat them as such in the OP.
A lot of arguing I find to be unfun, especially when the point of the argument for one side is just to argue. Being cynical, I feel for a lot of people, has become a cliche "hipster" thing to do. Not just in video games, but life in general. I don't want to get too philosophical or condescending, though (probably already failed here). I probably pay too much attention to how people behave for my own good.
i kind of miss your maya amano avatar
But yeah despite my (admittedly petty) grievances with it, its pretty good. Episode 3 was pretty awesome, it seems like they've overtaken the manga now.
buddha0991
Member
i kind of miss your maya amano avatar
But yeah despite my (admittedly petty) grievances with it, its pretty good. Episode 3 was pretty awesome, it seems like they've overtaken the manga now.
I did say that the ghost was temporary to celebrate the release of Soul Hackers, I will go back to Shadow Maya eventually, don't worry about that.
Just saw episode 4 btw.
I'm slightly different, in that I think it's a great game and a definite improvement from the original bioshock in pretty much every way, but like that game, I don't think it's worth the 50 dollar price tag due to its complete lack of replayability. Once you've experienced the story once, there's no reason to go back and replay the game; not even years down the line, due to the major interest in the story being so centered on the twist at the end.
I agree with your whole post, but the bolded especially. It would be beneficial to just ignore people sometimes.
Surprised that people think Infinite isn't worth the price tag. It's pretty darn lengthy for an FPS.
I agree. I generally get tired of arguments pretty quickly. I haven't discussed my problems with Infinite on here for exactly that reason.
When you're trying to present a point online, people rarely want to hear it, and even if they listen, their minds are generally already made up.
I agree. I generally get tired of arguments pretty quickly. I haven't discussed my problems with Infinite on here for exactly that reason.
When you're trying to present a point online, people rarely want to hear it, and even if they listen, their minds are generally already made up.
Well, I had no interest in the DS series until I saw the anime and learned the premise(even if it's Evangelion as all hell), then looked at the mechanics to be shown that I was somewhat wrong in thinking it was purely a strategy RPG, which I avoid.
After episode 3 I was both on board with trying the games, and wondering if I should just stop watching for now.
In terms of Bioshock, it was a great game, that probably would have been better served as not being a shoot-bang game in a generation full of shoot-bang games. It had a lot of potential to be greater than it was with different game-play decisions(no stealth element at all in this just doesn't make sense to me, especially since you tied the power-up system into articles of clothing), or even with just a different genre. The game was fun at times, to be fair, but then again I had fun doing the same type of gameplay in ME3 as an Vanguard(i.e. charging into everything, getting full shield/invul out of it, and blowing off something's head with a shotgun). Still definitely worth the price of admission.
I also don't think the gameplay itself was better than Bioshock 1 though. Too many "Oh look there's a ship incoming enemy waves!" moments, where-as in Bioshock 1 most of the enemies were placed on the level already and you could kind of scope them out before-hand. And don't get me started on Big Daddies vs. Handy-men, since there was like a total of 4 of the latter in the game. :\
After episode 3 I was both on board with trying the games, and wondering if I should just stop watching for now.
In terms of Bioshock, it was a great game, that probably would have been better served as not being a shoot-bang game in a generation full of shoot-bang games. It had a lot of potential to be greater than it was with different game-play decisions(no stealth element at all in this just doesn't make sense to me, especially since you tied the power-up system into articles of clothing), or even with just a different genre. The game was fun at times, to be fair, but then again I had fun doing the same type of gameplay in ME3 as an Vanguard(i.e. charging into everything, getting full shield/invul out of it, and blowing off something's head with a shotgun). Still definitely worth the price of admission.
I also don't think the gameplay itself was better than Bioshock 1 though. Too many "Oh look there's a ship incoming enemy waves!" moments, where-as in Bioshock 1 most of the enemies were placed on the level already and you could kind of scope them out before-hand. And don't get me started on Big Daddies vs. Handy-men, since there was like a total of 4 of the latter in the game. :\
I guess I'm just not a big fan of 50 dollar 10 hour experiences with absolutely no replayability attached to it. I already knew that going in, but I just don't like the idea of it. 40 bucks would be the sweet spot for me.
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