Petition for Electors to elect Hillary Clinton
- Thread starter Veelk
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You had your chance to vote dems and you didn't
They voted. They voted more than the republicans.
But since America isn't a democracy and has a broken system, that doesn't work.
Nothing spells democracy like your votes having different weight depending on your state.
No, that'd be your broken electoral system.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
In the Federalist Papers #10, James Madison argued against "an interested and overbearing majority" and the "mischiefs of faction" in an electoral system. He defined a faction as "a number of citizens whether amounting to a majority or minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adverse to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community."
I'm not crying in a fucking corner. I'm fighting. The motherfucking sexual assaulter who made my girlfriend sob because she was sexually assaulted by the same type of people is not my president. That's all there is to it. I've said the same thing to people in person trying to feed me the same BS line that I have to accept him. I don't and I never will.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
go ahead, get it out of your system.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
As I said this is not going to happen and so I think you might be arguing against a straw-liberal.
To reiterate what I said: I don't think there is anything wrong with the electors discharging their duty within the confines of the law (or to recognize that legal restrictions on faithless electors are largely toothless or token, and practice civil disobedience, just like I'm also not against jury nullification), no.
Social choice systems are complicated. There's nothing inherently legitimate about majoritarian popular vote elections versus indirect elections through districts or through the electoral college. Institutions and social choice rules are legitimate because we consent to them. Right now the US has the electoral college as a mechanism to translate the popular vote into a winner through the decision of electors. And the electoral college allows, both as a technical matter and in many cases by law, for faithless electors. If you don't like the system, get rid of it. In the mean time it is binding. If you want to replace it with the popular vote, do that. If you want to replace it with a system that automatically translates state elections without the use of electors, do that. There have been a handful of faithless electors in the past (and countless typos or errors) and that's a part of the system we all knew about before the election. In fact, in this election in specific, we even knew of one elector's intent to be a faithless elector.
It may be unwise to cause unrest because the public at large strongly believe in the electoral college (... but not in the popular vote, and not in the ability of electors to discharge their duty). I am certainly not advocating for this. Trump has been elected and all of the institutions we have are proceeding assuming he will take office--there are obvious negative consequences of doing anything that disrupts that. But the electoral college is set up the way it is and there is nothing inherently wrong with electors responding to that accordingly.
Adam_Vania
Banned
you may be unaware of US history but the country was founded by slaveholders and the EC, famously the first "Great Compromise" of congress, was haggling over the electoral value of slaves. all this is just repercussions from that.
triplestation
Member
Very dark times are ahead for at least the next four years and there's no way around it. America made its decision.
What's ridiculous is that Alex Jones might as well be our leader and it wouldn't make much of a difference.
What's ridiculous is that Alex Jones might as well be our leader and it wouldn't make much of a difference.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
"Mr. Trump is unfit to serve. His scapegoating of so many Americans, and his impulsivity, bullying, lying, admitted history of sexual assault, and utter lack of experience make him a danger to the Republic. "
This is correct regardless.
This is correct regardless.
Everybody remember this post.
Democracy did go the right way. It's just that America isn't a democracy. It sucks.
Atom Heart Mother
Banned
well to be fair someone always die due to a president...but i mean him in a hypothetical sense
Chie Satonaka
Member
Let's be clear, this happened well before the election results came in. This was a farce when Trump's rise to power began on the backs of "criminal rapist" Mexicans.
I'm not saying that I'm in favor of this happening, but I won't weep bitter tears if it went down like this, either.
That said, it's not going to happen.
maquiladora
Member
This went up by about 100,000 in under an hour.
You probably know this, and forgive me if you do, but the US is actually a republic and not a democracy. Part of that design is to not let a majority completely ignore the minority regionally speaking. It's outdated for sure. Back in the day though, you got to imagine that most other states were foreign lands you would never see and only hear about second hand. We have the internet and minorities get fucked anyway. I think we can ditch the EC.
You have to win the EC twice to effectively convince anyone it's broken though.
Jangowuzhere
Banned
Okay, continue to live in La La land.
The rest of us will look forward and be focused on fighting real battles.
I don't agree with the electoral college system at all. I also believe we should have something different. However, we've had this system for more then 200 years now. We're not going to throw it out the window just because Trump takes office.
We can all support a better system, but not for the election that just ended.
DouglasteR
Member
There was a better argument to toss it after 2000 than this year. That was close on both fronts. This was not. This is a situation where the Electoral College was designed to do what it was designed to do.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Everybody went into this election knowing the rules of the game. I don't think it's right to call foul because things didn't go our way.
I don't think you can assume a .3% difference in the popular vote holds up if the Electoral College doesn't exist in the first place. It suppresses voting in states that are not viewed as battlegrounds, "He/She's going to win my state anyway", etc. Maybe any change favors Hillary, no idea... but in such a close race it could certainly have made a difference.
Anyway as divided as the country is, I don't think it's yet in a position that a drastic action like this has much of a chance of happening. Not going to shame people for trying if they want to though.
Anyway as divided as the country is, I don't think it's yet in a position that a drastic action like this has much of a chance of happening. Not going to shame people for trying if they want to though.
I'm going to be hearing this a lot and I feel there needs to be a huge, bluntly obvious distinction.
He's going to be my president legally.
He will NEVER be my president personally.
I can respect the office he holds and respect him as president, while also rejecting every inch of his vile, hateful, bigoted, misogynistic personhood.
But people are hurt. REAL hurt. Physical and emotional tolls that aren't going to vanish overnight. Give people time to mourn, to be legit sad and to, yes, cry in their corner for a time. Just don't stay there. Give people time to grieve for a nation and the imminent and legit fears that can and WILL be coming for them. People absolute can and have been harmed by this man's rhetoric and policy. People very likely can and will die too.
So don't tell people to just "wake up".
We are the ones awake, with eyes wide open, because many of us now have neighbors on our doorsteps telling us to get out, to be afraid, to watch our backs.
So, while I appreciate the sentiment of "go forward", we're doing so while turning around to watch our backs.
I'm going to do my part as hard as I can to watch out for people I can help and protect those I can, but I acknowledge that not everyone is made of steel and many people are still processing this pain.
I can only do my part to help pick them up and encourage them to stay strong and positive, and encourage others to do their civic duty and do the same for those in need.
Who would take seriously an online petition that doesn't require you to be a US citizen and confirm you're an actual person?
Changing how a vote counts after votes have been cast is stupid. In the current electoral college system, people in the minority party where they live are less likely to vote in super-majority areas (e.g., conservatives in liberal urban areas, liberals in the bible belt). Their decision-making would be different if the popular vote mattered in deciding the outcome.
Changing how a vote counts after votes have been cast is stupid. In the current electoral college system, people in the minority party where they live are less likely to vote in super-majority areas (e.g., conservatives in liberal urban areas, liberals in the bible belt). Their decision-making would be different if the popular vote mattered in deciding the outcome.
Yeah, it's broken when your candidate loses.
If you've bowed down to Trump you've already lost and are a pawn to fucking Breitbart. You're not fighting shit.
Roberto Larcos
Member
This doesn't count as something.
When people think this is something, then they don't bother actually doing 'something' - because they've already done their part.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Double post
With the majority of the votes. Your system ignores the actual will of the people. It isn't democracy.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Yes, it's definitely true that the popular vote in the EC context and the popular vote in the non-EC context isn't the same. Intrinsically, I don't think any one social choice rule is legitimate. Like, it's easy to imagine a parallel world where American elections are done by popular vote, or by EC at the congressional district level, or half and half, or everyone has split-EVs like Maine, or whatever and none of those would strike me as "right" or "wrong" so much as they are the rules we agree to going into the election and that determine the results of the election. If people think the popular vote and EC splitting is a bad thing, they should get rid of or reform the EC (but so far the major effort to do so, the NPVIC, has just been Democrats angry about Gore 2000 rather than a broad public consensus that the EC is wrong). In the mean time, we have the EC, including faithless electors.
Exactly. When Brexit happened, our English friends tried to warn us, but a lot of people here dismissed it and said that we'd never have Trump due to the EC. Oh the irony.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Faithless electors would brew all kinds of madness.
The better course of action would be to petition for the abolition of the Electoral College if one believes in that.
The better course of action would be to petition for the abolition of the Electoral College if one believes in that.
It was distinctly never designed to be one. That's not a flaw in the system, it's intentional design.
And a KKK led government is totally cool and not asking for civil war, right?
AnotherDayAnotherDollar
Banned
This.
Fuck off with this shit. For all the people giving shit and mocking Trump for saying he would only accept the results if he won and then signing this, ask yourself if democracy is what you really want.
They're not exclusive.
Gerrymandering is a legit problem. Voting on a weekday based on outdated laws and societal norms long gone is anachronistic. Minority suppression, inconsistent voting rules, and ridiculous ID laws... That doesn't make it okay either. A broken system that still allows you to succeed most of the time is still a flawed system that can and should be repaired when necessary.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Really, man? No need to take that tone.
Arguing with folks on NeoGAF and talking big talk about how he's not your president is, also, "not fighting shit."
Nobody has bowed down to him. Respecting the results of the election, of our democracy, isn't the same thing as accepting everything he does just because he's our president now.
We'll fight him every step of the way, the party will fight him, the nation will for sure. He's going to be our President, and while we don't have to like it, he won.
The Electoral College is shit, but the proper way to change that is by forcing our lawmakers to change it. That's literally what we elect them for. Call your Senators, call your Representatives. If there's enough of an outcry (And I mean actual outcry, not just writing on a forum) then they WILL change it.
Wanting a do-over when things don't go your way is ridiculous.
crooked spin
Member
You're absolutely chicken little-ing the shit out of this thread, gotta hand it to you.
If they vote for Clinton, it's as much part of the rules. You know that right?
Trigonometrize.
Member
You should be ashamed if you've ever once scoffed at the Trump campaign for claiming the election will be rigged and that he won't accept the result. Fighting Trump on the validity of the election result in a system established for hundreds of years should literally be the lowest thing on your to-do list for denouncing him as a president you support. If you want to take down the EC, be my guest, but doing it now doesn't make you look noble, but a flat-out sore loser.
I protest. I say the same thing to Trumpers I've met in person. I voted and volunteered.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
If you are for respecting the EC as it is heading into the election, then you are for the right of electors to be faithless. In some states, it is totally legal to do so (TX)--and in other states it is illegal but the consequence is a fine to the elector, not an invalidation of their vote (WA).
It's not going to happen and as I say above there's many reasons why it might not be a good thing, but the argument here isn't "Respect the rules", it's "Respect one rule but not this other one because if you use this other one people are going to go apeshit". Which is fine, I get that.
I don't agree with this and Donald Trump is obviously going to be our next president, but don't tell people to "get over it". If people don't want to accept Trump as their president then they don't have to. It's just they have to take other avenues now. Protesting is a good start, but getting more involved in politics and voting in two years(and beyond) should be their goals right now.
A lot of people will not accept Trump as president, you get over that.
A lot of people will not accept Trump as president, you get over that.
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