Wow, that's sucks. They should update their store page.
Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen
- Thread starter spannicus
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Wow, that's sucks. They should update their store page.
Just found a great offer for the 55" VT60. Only 2700$ (2000€
!FML. I honestly don't know how tech companies get away with this shit here in Europe.
I don't have either of these Samsungs, but they should be comparable to the S60. Both will likely have higer input lag than the S60, but better than the ST60. Samsung seems to be better at handling IR, but than can vary between sets and even on "bad" sets it might not bother you (it doesn't bother me much).
The Samsung plasma I currently use is about 7 years old and as far as I can tell has worse input lag than these and might be as high as the ST60, but I can't find any real data on it. My personal usage puts it higher than 50 ms though, and I have no issues gaming on it.
lostinblue
Banned
Actually... no.
ZT60 and VT60 share the panel, so apart from cherry picking or perhaps some extra ill intended software optimization going on the maximum black, and maximum brightness should be the same on a dark room, the big difference is that usually before the antiglare filter wasn't applied directly on the panel but adjacent to it, creating a double image if seen from low side angles like 15º and an air "box" that made it so that light got all the way to the panel, who didn't have a antiglare coating going on.
ZT60 applies that antiglare finish on the panel itself, so it's better on a well lit room due to the fact it did away with the air box, that's all there is to it though.
Even Panasonic's ST60 Antiglare filter humiliates the Kuros, it's simply a thing that evolved a lot since 2008.
OK then. But we're talking black, not anti-glare.
lostinblue
Banned
Precisely my point.
Black on a lit room might vary a little due to the anti glare, other than that, doesn't make much sense seeing it's the same panel: if on a dark room it has darker blacks then also has lower peak white; meaning the anti-glare made it to be simply dimmer.
Anyway, they're supposed to be tied nonetheless.
My wife recently surprised with a new television specifically to connect my game systems to. It is a Samsung 40" F6400 and has a beautiful picture and some great smart features. The problem is I noticed my score in multiplayer games such as COD: Ghost and Battlefield 4 have tanked I was never great at these games but felt a little bit better than average but now I suck. But I don't want to hurt the wifes feelinigs either. Any advice? I did switch it to game mode and that helped a little but still have seen my scores take a dive.
GreyMatter
Member
Can we go hug each other in a corner? I literally just got home from Best Buy with the same results. What I really found irritating was how the display model was still on the show floor.
I'm trying to muster up the will to go downtown and attempt finding it at Sears. My last option is to buy the open box Best Buy has listed in Hodgkins, IL.
turn off any extra processing. This should bring the response time down.
All samsung tv's have a response time trick.
Go to your input that you have your console plugged into go into settings (hdmi 1,2,3 etc.) rename it PC
You tv should blank and your screen picture will change....this removes almost all response issues with samsung tv's and for the most part is universal on All of them and works even better than game mode.
Alright thanks I will try this.
Yes my buddy has a 60 inch 3d tv and his response time was horrid so I went into the settings and renamed hdmi 1 to PC sure enough picture blanked and screen changed color mood and stuff......you can edit it from here on but you will notice some settings disabled because it turns processing off, but yes the response time for most of the tv's after this trick is actually quite beautiful I'm still able to pull 2.4K/D running with it.....still not as fast as any monitor but it's awesome to have good response on such a big screen.
lostinblue
Banned
4K is a load of marketing bullshit.
Current TV sets were designed to be close to "retina"; retina being the 300 ppi Apple advertises with their ubber low dot pitch screens.
Allow me to illustrate...
Starting with recommended viewing distance regardless of resolution:
A 32" TV takes the recommended 30 degree of human vision when seen from 1 meter and 45 centimeters of distance.
A 42" TV takes the recommended 30 degree of human vision when seen from 1 meter and 91 centimeters of distance.
A 50" TV takes the recommended 30 degree of human vision when seen from 2 meters and 28 centimeters of distance.
A 60" TV takes the recommended 30 degree of human vision when seen from 2 meters and 73 centimeters of distance.
A 65" TV takes the recommended 30 degree of human vision when seen from 2 meters and 96 centimeters of distance.
A 84" TV takes the recommended 30 degree of human vision when seen from 3 meters and 87 centimeters of distance.
Taking resolution into account:
A 32" full HD 1080p TV is retina when seen from 1 meter and 27 centimeters of distance.
A 42" full HD 1080p TV is retina when seen from 1 meter and 67 centimeters of distance.
A 50" full HD 1080p TV is retina when seen from 1 meter and 98 centimeters of distance.
A 60" full HD 1080p TV is retina when seen from 2 meters and 38 centimeters of distance.
A 65" full HD 1080p TV is retina when seen from 2 meters and 58 centimeters of distance.
A 84" full HD 1080p TV is retina when seen from 3 meters and 33 centimeters of distance.
Seems to be in line, right? They're actually a little more than retina/300ppi when seen from the recommended 30 degree field of view distances.
Wondering as for a 4K?
A 32" 4K 2160p TV is retina when seen from 59 centimeters of distance.
A 42" 4K 2160p TV is retina when seen from 78 centimeters of distance.
A 50" 4K 2160p TV is retina when seen from 93 centimeters of distance.
A 60" 4K 2160p TV is retina when seen from 1 meter and 12 centimeters of distance.
A 65" 4K 2160p TV is retina when seen from 1 meter and 21 centimeters of distance.
A 84" 4K 2160p TV is retina when seen from 1 meters and 56 centimeters of distance.
See? Ignoring the fact there's no video sources for it... It's also overkill as fuck. At this state, nobody needs more than 1080p on a telly (and standing at those listed distances for 4K is not comfortable) hence you'll be rebating detail, ie: like natural supersampling (for the record, "supersampling" has advantages, 4K gaming could do away with AA and appear a little crisper due to the fact it didn't use any kind of edge smoothing, and alpha textures would also appear anti-aliased unlike the usual), but that would only be happening because the TV extinguished your eye capability to resolve detail at that distance and hence, you started rebating it, due to that the 4K future is preparing for comparably lousy compressed video standards to today, we're going into 4K with artifacting and generally worse quality per block than 1080p bluray quality rather than going 4:4:4 and better quality.
And of course it's also cheaper for games and hardware to pull 1080p and 4xMSAA or even TAAA (transparency adaptive AA) rather than 2160p sans AA, so it's really not attractive.
4K is only happening due to 1. 3D failed as a selling point 2. Proper 3D sans glasses would mean Parallax barrier or Lenticular Arrays being in order to not feel very restrictive on a living room that would mean they'd need at least 3 times the logic of a normal autoestereoscopy prototype, or... 3*(2*1920*1080p) or... 11520*1080p. FUN. 3. Passive 3D being half the vertical resolution of a 1080p screen, a 2160p screen wouldn't be bound to such limitations 4. erm... Marketing; the need to keep selling new TV sets by claiming there's a generational resolution leap going on.
It's throwing sand into people's eyes, if you ask me.
I could quite easily with access to the source and respecting viewing distances make it very hard for you to distinguish between a 1080p screen and a 4K one; 4K will most of the time look a little sharper only because they applied a little sharpening to the source itself at 4K rather than doing it at 2K; that "sharpness" increase can also for the most part be rebated and pre-implemented on 1080p though. (like this)
In some cases that also messes with the contrast/image quality big time in a non-regulable manner.
I think it's solved now on newer sets.
Incitemaybe
Member
I feel your pain! They had sold the display model at the store near me and the website is big liar telling me I can get it till the last page or so of checkout....was very frustrating.
The good news is I looked for one at a local place and they had 2 left! So my boyfriend is out right now picking it up as I type...I'm very relieved.......I hope you can find one as well, look at something local-ish.
AndyMoogle
Member
I doubt you'll be able to find a Panasonic plasma by next summer. They are already starting to sell out in some places.
There will be new TVs coming next year, but if any of them will be better than a VT60, at a comparable price, is impossible to say right now. Next year's lineup will be shown at CES in January.
ReyVGM
Member
Yes they did. And burn in if you really abused them with a static image.
I remember getting image retention during the NES days with games like Super Mario bros, in the underground levels if you let the game paused for too long.
A friend of mine gave permanent image retention on his CRT because he left a game paused the whole day.
ReyVGM
Member
I'd say go with the VT60 purely because the speakers are in the front and the sound... sounds much better.
WonkyPanda
Member
Can someone explain the purpose of DNice's slides? He says they're not used for burn-in, but then what's the purpose the slides if not for burn-in? I remember on my old 2008 Panny, I ran slides for burn-in.
uniform aging of the phosphors to prep for proper calibration
WonkyPanda
Member
Does that not work for burn-in as well?
EDIT: I suppose what I am trying to say is: don't the slides serve the dual purpose of aging AND burn-in?
you don't want to burn in anything. Not sure if you know what you're asking.
WonkyPanda
Member
Sorry, long day: what I meant is break-in; the slides aren't meant for break-in.
If you have any arcades still around you go in and look at an old Pac-man machine and you'll see the maze baked into the display. CRT most certainly have burn in.
What say you GAF? Is this an absolute steal for that price point? http://www.adorama.com/TO39L1350U.html?utm_term=Other&utm_medium=Others&utm_campaign=Other&utm_source=shopbot
Mattlikewhoa
Member
I have a ST 50" in my bedroom... You're going to love it!
lostinblue
Banned
I did, I did.
Also because ZT60's are really expensive here in PAL-lands and they're only available in the 60 incher flavour; which kinda sucks, costs more than the 65VT60 and it's not even available at a matching size.
The VT60 made me go pretty broke though, so I couldn't fathom paying more even if I wanted.
See You Next Wednesday
Banned
Who cares about "recommended" viewing distance?
They recommend you should take breaks every 20 minutes of watching TV or games too..
Besides there is 4K content & options coming out
http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?40-RED-RAY
It's no different than when 1080p debuted early this generation, people kept saying TV stations won't output 1080p, game consoles aren't going to have 1080p content, blu-ray was still new & expensive.
Yet, having a 720p TV is a deal breaker for anyone now.
Thanks for the tip - I hadn't tried turning on impulse mode for games (tv is a W9 46"), and for some games it made a huge difference. Resogun and NFS looked incredible with it; Assassin's Creed not so much (too much cross-talky flickering when spinning the camera quickly). Now I've got the game mode set up so that "Game-Standard" has motionflow impulse on and backlight turned up, and "Game-Original" has it off with low blacklight - makes it really easy to switch between them.
The W9 is awesome, but check it out instore if you're not going to be sitting directly in front of it. At standard living room distances you'll be fine if you're somewhere on a three seater couch in front of it, but any further to the sides and it's a different story... Basically you either need to be lonely (watch it on your own) or with someone you want to be nice and close to
lostinblue
Banned
Hardly the same thing.
If you wanna see soap operas as if they're tennis matches and you were on the first row with binoculars, well, it's up to you.
But I reckon that's not a normal thing to do, just like when I go to the cinema I sit back there; I don't care that if I was really close I could see slighly more detail; I also couldn't see the whole thing so it wouldn't be comfortable.
Viewing distances are "designed"for comfort.
Sure. You realize at the distance most people are using their 1080p sets they wouldn't notice wether they're 720p or 1080p, right?
It's marketing, and yes, I expect everyone to have a 4K eventually (I'll have one eventually, wether I give it merit or not), but 4K is diminishing returns in comparison to 480p to 720p and 720p to 1080p even if if it were down to pixel grid increase it's a 100% increase something the other jumps really can't claim.
As of now, they're lagged as hell and a total waste of otherwise perfectly good money.
Yeah, that is my situation... none of my "permanent" seating is in front of the TV, they are off to both sides. Certainly not an ideal viewing area, but it's what I have until I finish my basement and have a dedicated theatre room (several years away at best though).The W9 is awesome, but check it out instore if you're not going to be sitting directly in front of it. At standard living room distances you'll be fine if you're somewhere on a three seater couch in front of it, but any further to the sides and it's a different story... Basically you either need to be lonely (watch it on your own) or with someone you want to be nice and close to
I went out to look at the Panny S60 and ST60 again last night and the store had last years Samsung plasma (e8000) still around on clearance. Comparing it to the S60 it appeared to look better to me, and had better glare reduction from what I could tell. Considering the price was less than the S60, and about half the ST60, I picked it up and will test it in my home over the holidays. Worst case scenario, if I'm not 100% happy I'll bring it back and exchange for one of the Pannys, but it looked great in store so hopefully I will be content with it.
agree with all that
Anyone?
Gillian Seed
Banned
I have this set in my bedroom, and its great! http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-40-class-40-diag--led-1080p-60hz-hdtv/8351047.p?id=1218873350745&skuId=8351047&ref=06&loc=01&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=8351047&extensionType={adtype}:{network}&s_kwcid=PTC!pla!{keyword}!{matchtype}!{adwords_producttargetid}!{network}!{ifmobile:M}!{creative}&kpid=8351047&k_clickid=7d79da84-ce8a-8749-62af-00005473c77b&gclid=CNLUjozbvLsCFWZyQgodBTQAqQ
Hey! For some reason the link doesn't work for me at work. Can you tell me the make and model of the TV? I'm leaning towards this Vizio set:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CI3BP06/?tag=neogaf0e-20
AlimNassor
Banned
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AWKBZQG/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Everyone says the W650A is amazing. I'm tempted to buy it, but, the price is holding me back.
I never knew this. I've never had anything but CRTs and never seen retention and I've abused my TVs a lot.
ChoklitCow
Member
So I'm going to finally pulll the trigger on an s60, but I have a transporting conundrum.
Since it looks like 60" are gone for good, I'm settling on 50 or 55. Nearest 55 is over an hour away, and I don't have a truck (2011 Sentra). They won't ship either (ABCWarehouse).
This thread and Google send mixed signals on Plasmas being upright. I haven't found the box online, but I don't see upright happening. I also live in Indiana so it is cold.
There is a 50in in my town (Sears), and I could borrow a truck. Its more expensive than the 50" at ABC and I originally wanted a 60".
Since it looks like 60" are gone for good, I'm settling on 50 or 55. Nearest 55 is over an hour away, and I don't have a truck (2011 Sentra). They won't ship either (ABCWarehouse).
This thread and Google send mixed signals on Plasmas being upright. I haven't found the box online, but I don't see upright happening. I also live in Indiana so it is cold.
There is a 50in in my town (Sears), and I could borrow a truck. Its more expensive than the 50" at ABC and I originally wanted a 60".
Yup, I was watching the 60" S60 on Best Buy site and it suddenly sold out a few weeks ago. I should've bit.
Nevermind. Looks like its a 240hz display but it doesn't come in 40" size only 47" and 32"
The 40" model looks like a downgrade but it is $450.
http://store.sony.com/40-diag-r450a...-Sony-HD-TVs?_t=pfm=category&pfmvalue=faceted
Finally calibrated my s60 after 200 hours then went into disney wow. Forgot to flip off the automatic picture setting and wasn't too impressed(it changed it to standard instead of my calibrated cinema). Flipped it to cinema and was blown away by the menu, even the pixel flipper looks different after calibration. Can't wait to get a ps4 so i can see how good this set really looks. Also, the viewing angles on this tv are fucking ridiculous, no picture quality loss no matter where I look from.
H_Prestige
Banned
VT60 is the best picture quality money can buy and gives you the deepest black levels short of OLED.
S60 isn't that far off and can produce some really nice blacks, but due to its panel construction and AR filter, it will look dull in bright rooms.
Any reason you're not looking at the ST60? Would be a good compromise.
What's the difference between the ST60 and VT60?
Maastricht
Member
I have a W656a 42" and love it. I'm much better at games like Zen Pinball thanks to the low latency and it looks great and very affordable.
I love 3D but have a cheap 27" passive to tide me over until something like the Oculus or Sony's stuff is out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yscPqZ2lXdg
I love 3D but have a cheap 27" passive to tide me over until something like the Oculus or Sony's stuff is out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yscPqZ2lXdg
lostinblue
Banned
There's a very clear difference but that's not to say the 65" S60 is not a very good purchase at that pricepoint. Hell, even X60's and freaking great for what they are and cost. The rest of the plasma line is 2013 FHD panel production line tech, so even if it was meant for VT/ZT60's it ended up benefitting every model out there.
At the price they go for they're certainly more compelling than the VT60 itself. They're a steal, when VT60 really isn't even if it's worth it - cheap, it isn't.
For games taking the filters aside and other nuances due to the choices taken in the panel configurations they should be surprisingly even. Biggest difference is when it comes to modes with virtually no grain like the cinema ones, S60 will behave like a sitting duck next to that. Good news is that at ideal viewing distance it shouldn't be that noticeable specially if you don't have a VT60 alongside it.
Objectively... The biggest one is the fact ST60 is driven by the Mediatek 5590 chip while GT60's (if you're in Europe), VT60's and ZT60's use Panasonic's own tech.
The Mediatek solution is feature complete for the most part (no flash on the browser and some cheap tricks on the 3D mode aside) but it lags; that's the sole reason why ST60's score 54 ms minimum on fast camera mode.
The following aforementioned models have Panasonic tech so they behave like expected (roughly half the lag going on) they also have more layer density going on (ST60=12,288 GT60=24,576 VT/ZT=30,720 steps of gradation), more refresh rate on the panel driver and in VT and ZT cases better antiglare and contrast filters.
This of course, can be seen as diminishing returns, but more steps of gradation helps in reducing the need for impulse color nuanced interpolation, it means more stable end results can be obtained up close (less dithering and color quantization).
Other than that, and on the software front, it's pretty deliberate but all models after the ST60 have THX and ISF pro modes; ST60 only has the "Custom" mode; those modes can be useful (specially the day and night THX settings) but one can do without.