This is another thing I forgot to emphasize. Often "visual fidelity" gets thrown around as a nebulous term. Yet on my ST I think I finally understand what that means as I sit here and am able to make out reflections in people's eyeballs trough the display. At first I wasn't really a ware of what I was really doing. I just noticed some kind of shape in a character's eyeball so I focused in on it with my eyes.... "Is that camera equipment in her eyes? Wait a minute... am I able to resolve this much detail?" It was a jaw dropping realization.
Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen
- Thread starter spannicus
- Start date
This is another thing I forgot to emphasize. Often "visual fidelity" gets thrown around as a nebulous term. Yet on my ST I think I finally understand what that means as I sit here and am able to make out reflections in people's eyeballs trough the display. At first I wasn't really a ware of what I was really doing. I just noticed some kind of shape in a character's eyeball so I focused in on it with my eyes.... "Is that camera equipment in her eyes? Wait a minute... am I able to resolve this much detail?" It was a jaw dropping realization.
BruiserBear
Banned
For a few bucks more you get a whole lot more input lag.
Seriously folks, you do not want to be playing videogames on a tv with 48 milliseconds of input lag. Don't do that to yourselves.
Prophet Steve
Member
The input lag is only bad on the ST60 and acceptable on the rest of them. He'd probably be fine with the VT60 with regards to input lag.
Taking delivery of my VT60 on 01/04...it's gonna be a happy new year!
Congrats! You're gonna love it.
Input lag on my VT60 is imperceptible. 41 ms is really not that long. The average blink takes 300-400ms.
I'll take the slight input delay of a plasma over the picture quality of an LCD any day.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I have the ST60. No problems for me and I come from a PC gaming background.
Yup.
I'm averaging 3:1 KD in COD:G and a 2:1 in KZ:SF.
Input lag what?
Yeah, I think input lag is a severely overblown online. I didn't even notice it on an ST60 I used for a few weeks. It's a non issue in single player games, and network lag will be much more noticeable than input lag if you're playing multiplayer.
Watching Streets of NY on Amazon's 1080p stream last night made me happy I didn't pass up on the ST60 due to internet specs. I never felt lag at all and the fact you can't buy one any more sucks for those who fronted.
BruiserBear
Banned
This is obviously one of those things that some people are just oblivious to, but I've personally seen what kind of an affect it has on games. A friend of mine bought a Samsung LCD a few years back that had about 60ms of input lag. He had Killzone 3 there and I began playing to to see how sweet his new tv looked. I was immediately struck by how difficult this section of the game was, even though I had finished it with no problem at my house. It then dawned on me it was the input lag, and I was shocked at how much more difficult this section of the game was with that much lag.
People can say whatever they want, but it's making their games more difficult and less responsive. I can think of nothing more important in videogames than the connection between you and the game on the screen. Adding a layer of lag to that is sacrilege IMO. 30ms or less is all I believe is acceptable.
How's the 3D on the w900a compared to the w802a (Sony)?
My only experience with 3D is on the ST60 plasma (active) which really sucked in my opinion (uncomfortable, constantly have to press the button to sync, dark image) and the passive on the w802a (best part of that TV, no issues except black lines if you go up close).
w900a is active 3D but it's on a LCD so maybe the image wouldn't be dark. It's the only thing keeping me from exchanging my w802a for it... well, that and it's slightly more expensive.
My only experience with 3D is on the ST60 plasma (active) which really sucked in my opinion (uncomfortable, constantly have to press the button to sync, dark image) and the passive on the w802a (best part of that TV, no issues except black lines if you go up close).
w900a is active 3D but it's on a LCD so maybe the image wouldn't be dark. It's the only thing keeping me from exchanging my w802a for it... well, that and it's slightly more expensive.
Looks like I'll be in the market for a new TV soon. My Sony 60" A3000 SXRD rear projection set is starting to show some green discoloration in the lower right corner. It's also in the center of the screen but it's not very noticeable when watching TV. I'll be keeping a close eye on CES in a few weeks. If nothing really amazing gets announced then I may just go for one of the last VT60's. I bought one of the last A3000 sets right at the end of its life cycle so I may do the same with a Panny plasma in January or February.
Black Republican
Member
i wanna upgrade from my LG 42" 720p 600Hz Plasma HDTV (42PA4500), any suggestions for a 1080p for gaming? or should i wait early next year? or summer
budget under 600
budget under 600
why does everyone here seem to want the lowest version?
BruiserBear
Banned
Possibly because it's got the lowest input lag of any new plasma. Also it's got a very good picture for the price.
iamshadowlark
Banned
I don't think this means what you think it does. Anyways, Input Lag is usually just something you have to get used to. It can be difficult switching from a good 19-25 something LED and a 40+ plasma. Also good LCDs are no slouch in PQ, if anything is overblown, its the PQ advantage from the top line LCDs to Plasmas.
You must have crazy reaction time if you can tell a 15ms difference between two screens.
Dollar for dollar, Plasma blows away LCD, no question. An LCD just can't match the panel uniformity and black levels of a high end Plasma.
Show me an LCD TV that provides a picture as good as a VT60 for $1,500.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Well the qualifer there is certainly dollar for dollar. The far biggest reason to buy top end plasmas over LCDs is cost. Both quality and size wize. But I think the narritive that Plasmas dwarf even top-level LCDs is a bit overstated.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Not really, if you prioritize things like black levels, natural motion resolution, color gamut, these are things plasmas dominate for fraction of the price of a top-level LCD. No one's saying top-level LCDs are bad but when you're doubling or tripling the price of an S60 to get similar picture quality, you're not exactly overstating anything.
The low-end plasmas are so good that paying more for a top-end plasma is a much smaller upgrade than going from a low-end garbage LCD to a top-end LCD.
It's important to realize that until 2013 there wasn't any such thing as Motionflow Impulse, so whenever you bought an LCD you had to choose between good motion resolution but unplayable input lag or terrible native LCD motion resolution and better input lag in Game Mode. There was a time only recently where a plasma humiliated any LCD in gaming for this reason alone, IR issues be damned.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Eh what TV was this again? I'll give you black levels and maybe NMR for some models but TVs like the W900A surpass even the ST60s in things like color reproduction and lighting. This seems like a textbook example of overstating.
Matt2thefuture
Member
Dumb question is there any difference between the Panasonic TC-P55VT60 55 inch and 60 besides the screen side. Like if I go 200 cheaper is there anything else im not getting with the 200 dollar more model besides the bigger screen?
No, they are exactly the same.
Err... "lighting?"
And the W900 has great post-calibration color reproduction, but it merely edges that of the ST60 and S60. Outside of a side-by-side comparison with test patterns/select demo material you would never notice. The contrast advantage of the plasmas, however, is immediately apparent.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Backlighting. Meaning they perform alot better in ambient light.
Ok gaf, I need your help. I'm looking for a new screen which:
-is 32"
-runs at 1080p
-is cheap
I've got a small room so anything over 32" would be an overkill. I would use this tv for PC gaming and for WiiU (maybe ps4 in 2-3 years). I did some research and found those models:
- Samsung F5000 (but I read that this model has a terrible ghosting?)
- Philips 32 PFL3258
What do you guys think? Maybe something different in the same price range?
-is 32"
-runs at 1080p
-is cheap
I've got a small room so anything over 32" would be an overkill. I would use this tv for PC gaming and for WiiU (maybe ps4 in 2-3 years). I did some research and found those models:
- Samsung F5000 (but I read that this model has a terrible ghosting?)
- Philips 32 PFL3258
What do you guys think? Maybe something different in the same price range?
You're friend's 60ms is a big difference compared to the VT60's input lag. I've been gaming on an older plasma for years and it's fine for me. While having the lowest input lag is important for twitch-based shooters/games, it's fine for almost everything else. I don't own one of the newer sets but I would assume they have better input lag than my older plasma.
I can't believe plasmas would still have any sort of lag in any model. This is from 5 years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSW94blyA5Y
46ms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSW94blyA5Y
46ms
Depends on viewing context - either LCD or plasma could be better suited
Can't comment specifically, but the passive 3D on my W685 has hardly any loss of light vs the active 3D of my HD803. The TV should auto compensate for the loss of light from the shutter glasses, but if you have your backlight on high for 2D, there is a limit to what can be done.
Oh man oh man oh man oh man.
I almost bought this TV for $2200 in the fall and then skipped on it because I figured I'd wait for the 4K's to hit $2000 next year (passive 3D + 4K = yay), but I'm going to have trouble letting this one sail by.
Mattlikewhoa
Member
I was offered the 65" Sony 4K for $4250 last weekend while looking at a few 4K sets with my wife. I'd hold out till CES to see what manufacturers are bringing to the table for the next releases (and pricing).
Backlights tend to make the entire picture seem very flat however. That's always been my problem with LCD based technology. Great for computer monitors, not great for watching films.
BruiserBear
Banned
The VT60 has 48ms of input lag. Most plasmas have actually gotten worse in recent years.
http://m.cnet.com/news/game-mode-on-cnet-tests-tvs-for-input-lag/57587317?ds=1
huh, interesting. Glad I kept it. I gave it to my folks.
lostinblue
Banned
Top range panasonic plasmas measure incorrectly in leo bodnar! How many times must this be said before people understand?
Seriously.
Before the end of 2012 everything was fast camera method, which meant using a high speed camera to take a pic of a counter running simultaneously on the TV of your choice and on a CRT (0 lag or close to it); the difference would be the input lag.
Sadly CRT's had refresh cycles (the from top to bottom refresh) so that method wasn't that reliable and had to be obtained through several takes. Fast responding PC LCD screens have helped a little there, but it still takes a few rounds to get to an average reading.
Then came leo bodnar, leo bodnar is a camera device that sends the signal via hdmi and then reads the result on the screen from the moment it gets there, because of the way high refresh rate plasmas work, they'll be displaying the image in a way that our eyes can interpret before the darn thing registers.
Hence the discrepancy.
ST50 was AND IS a blazing fast TV, with 16 ms of lag; on leo bodnar? whooping 47 ms. And let me tell this, a 47 ms LCD on leo bodnar can feel slow, and they should be. On an ST50? hell fucking no; because it's just being badly read.
With that in mind, I don't remember any plasma doing less than 16 ms (fast camera method) and they certainly increased a few ms in the last few top panny's; with that said, measured input lag for european VT60/65 is 23 ms on fast camera method 41 ms on Leo Bodnar, and disregard leo bodnar in case you weren't already; specially if you want to compare it to sets years prior. It's really not oranges to oranges not even in the LCD case where ms usually vary 3 to 8 ms but specially NOT in the plasma case where discrepancies hit ceilings as high as ~30 ms. Something is malfuntioning and it's the new "easy" kid on the block: Leo Bodnar.
I also tend to give more credit to fast camera method for one simple reason, one is measuring the reading of a fucking white bar appearing and being read by a machine, the other is manually measuring through photos (compatible with our scope of vision) the reading of two perfectly readable screens running the same counter. If a still photo from a counter on two places is not blurred and I can identify the discrepancy... Well, of course 41 ms my ass unless the thing does time travel.
If it feels responsive for your eyes on fast camera it's because it fucking is.
ST60 is lagged. Every other Panny Plasma in existence really isn't, even if they can have nuances between them.
And other thing, they say input lag is only really noticeable after it cumulatively hits 166 ms. Hence, the real problem is that 60 fps console games already lag 66 ms and 30 fps ones lag 133 ms. And some are lagged even if you had a 0 delay screen (GTA4, Killzone 2 and 3, etc shit with too much post process going on); my point being any TV measuring less than 33 ms in fast camera mode is not only fast, it should be indiscernible providing the game is not full of shit.
VT60 is mighty fine for gaming. (and I have one and already tried shmups on it, no less)
Seriously.
Before the end of 2012 everything was fast camera method, which meant using a high speed camera to take a pic of a counter running simultaneously on the TV of your choice and on a CRT (0 lag or close to it); the difference would be the input lag.
Sadly CRT's had refresh cycles (the from top to bottom refresh) so that method wasn't that reliable and had to be obtained through several takes. Fast responding PC LCD screens have helped a little there, but it still takes a few rounds to get to an average reading.
Then came leo bodnar, leo bodnar is a camera device that sends the signal via hdmi and then reads the result on the screen from the moment it gets there, because of the way high refresh rate plasmas work, they'll be displaying the image in a way that our eyes can interpret before the darn thing registers.
Hence the discrepancy.
ST50 was AND IS a blazing fast TV, with 16 ms of lag; on leo bodnar? whooping 47 ms. And let me tell this, a 47 ms LCD on leo bodnar can feel slow, and they should be. On an ST50? hell fucking no; because it's just being badly read.
With that in mind, I don't remember any plasma doing less than 16 ms (fast camera method) and they certainly increased a few ms in the last few top panny's; with that said, measured input lag for european VT60/65 is 23 ms on fast camera method 41 ms on Leo Bodnar, and disregard leo bodnar in case you weren't already; specially if you want to compare it to sets years prior. It's really not oranges to oranges not even in the LCD case where ms usually vary 3 to 8 ms but specially NOT in the plasma case where discrepancies hit ceilings as high as ~30 ms. Something is malfuntioning and it's the new "easy" kid on the block: Leo Bodnar.
I also tend to give more credit to fast camera method for one simple reason, one is measuring the reading of a fucking white bar appearing and being read by a machine, the other is manually measuring through photos (compatible with our scope of vision) the reading of two perfectly readable screens running the same counter. If a still photo from a counter on two places is not blurred and I can identify the discrepancy... Well, of course 41 ms my ass unless the thing does time travel.
If it feels responsive for your eyes on fast camera it's because it fucking is.
ST60 is lagged. Every other Panny Plasma in existence really isn't, even if they can have nuances between them.
And other thing, they say input lag is only really noticeable after it cumulatively hits 166 ms. Hence, the real problem is that 60 fps console games already lag 66 ms and 30 fps ones lag 133 ms. And some are lagged even if you had a 0 delay screen (GTA4, Killzone 2 and 3, etc shit with too much post process going on); my point being any TV measuring less than 33 ms in fast camera mode is not only fast, it should be indiscernible providing the game is not full of shit.
VT60 is mighty fine for gaming. (and I have one and already tried shmups on it, no less)
I knew that but why you have such lag? Is it because triplebuffering is always enables on consoles?
lostinblue
Banned
This is latency and as you know, everything that stores and/or processes has latency.
And the essential thing to retain is that latency is additive, which is the only reason it matters for TV's, they rarely are the biggest offenders but they're the last step of an incremental way, hence in the borderline, they can make the difference between something feeling lagged or not. If you pull GTA4 on a W650, W802 or W900 it's probably feel more responsive than on a more lagged TV, but only because the darn thing was already so close to lag being noticeable that the TV and a few ms really can make a difference.
From the moment you press a button, there's a certain amount of lag until it gets to the I/O chip (2 ms or so); x360 wireless controllers lag more if microsoft claims to have reduced latency from them on XBone... then you have process it so that takes cpu cycles who take time to complete, it also has to do things like access cache and RAM who have latencies going on; every step of the way adds lag... one good such example being how online gaming lags, remote locations and information taking it's time to make it across (and then there's netcode trying to make it unnoticeable) but processing it, and the game itself also amounts to lag... even writing the front buffer and sending it up adds lag. Why it ends up being 66.7 ms and 133.3 ms (perfect full frames of lag) would be because that's the speed it gets out of the machine, it's being measured in frames after all; 30 fps per second means you have a new frame every 33.3 ms and for a 60 fps game that means a new frame for every 16.7 ms.
I can't fully explain it, but I can point you to this article (done before input lag was used on a daily basis and before digital foundry sucked balls) and stress that for this generation of consoles no game could go under 50 ms of lag.
BruiserBear
Banned
Got a link proving that mouthful? And no, a link to a dude talking on another forum isn't going to cut it.
You're suggesting the testing method that involves two separate displays, a high speed camera, and a computer is more reliable than the method that involves a single box with a camera built into it.
Any man of science will tell you the test involving the fewest variables is likely to the most reliable.
Haint
Member
See my VT60 lag tests a page or 2 back. I also ran the timer in the U pad browser and it showed 1-2 frames faster than the VT60. I'm fairly confident the bodnar is accurate.
If you had to get an LED and not plasma, which one would you choose? For movies/cable.
IFFF I ever played any games the only games I would play on these would be games like "skyrim, dead island" no online games. Those are on my PC.
But for now lets just say it will be used only for MOVIES/CABLE. Which one would you recommend.
1. Sony KDL-55W900A
or
2. Samsung UN55F8000
IFFF I ever played any games the only games I would play on these would be games like "skyrim, dead island" no online games. Those are on my PC.
But for now lets just say it will be used only for MOVIES/CABLE. Which one would you recommend.
1. Sony KDL-55W900A
or
2. Samsung UN55F8000
w900. Samsungs are trash.
lostinblue
Banned
I don't need dudes talking on another forum - although tbh I find the request in itself very silly as I could get posts from engineers, insiders and dudes that do reviews going into some things in detail; but I digress, I really wouldn't use such "linking" because I'm lazy, finding such enlightening posts can be hard and you're not exactly asking nicely.
Rather, I'll backtrack and reinforce my logic: It's really simple, if something was and felt responsive last year and now leo bodnar reports it as being lagged to hell then Leo Bodnar IS the discrepancy. Simple cause and effect logic.
Reviewers realized as much right away, and they realized Leo Bodnar method wasn't being accurate on the Plasmas because:
Panasonic ST50 over fast camera method: 16 ms
Panasonic ET60 over fast camera method: 34 ms
Panasonic ST50 over Leo Bodnar: 47 ms
Panasonic ET60 over Leo Bodnar: 48 ms
(I used these two TV's for a reason, you'll understand soon enough)
They're not the same, no. One of them in reality it doesn't have perceptible 47 ms response time at all. Emphasis on perceptible, or better yet when seen the other way around... it's way more fluid so perhaps it's Leo Bobnar that is perceiving it incorrectly even if the thing it's reading is as accurate as it can get.
Leo Bodnar for LCD's is fine albeit still comparing apples to oranges (ie: "2011 TV was measured back then as having 33 ms of lag, this 40 ms 2013 TV is such a step down!" perhaps not so!), it matters knowing how it was measured; and before fall of 2012 everything unless otherwise noted is fast camera method.
Cutting the chase though, I can link you to this:
Source: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/input-lag
I rest my case.
No, I'm sure Leo Bodnar is more accurate for whatever it's looking for (I actually know what it's looking for, but I like the way "whatever" sounds, thank you) but I'll believe my eyes first when grasping how fluid something really feels in direct comparison to something else; in this case, an abstract "automagical" method.
A camera takes photos in a spectrum my eyes understand against a counter being ran simultaneously, if the result averages at 23 ms and the visible result on the photos is a stable (and not overly blurred image on the TV then while there's space for error I know the thing feels responsive in accordance to everything measured that way. Meaning a Plasma and a LCD on fast camera mode are oranges to oranges, compare the numbers and it the responseness should be in line.
That's night and day different to a machine that is looking for a 100% white bar to materialize telling me the lag is actually "x"; I'm sure the machine is right but often looking for something to register on a "trap" doesn't tell the whole story, the trap doesn't get everything only what it was designed to "catch", hence in reality it might not be as accurate as it supposedly is, even if it is.
Due to lack of data and log collecting of any other kind (it could register when the black pixel first starts to change until it gets the end result for instance), it's really of no use if something is drawing incomplete frames that with succession (and the fact the refresh rate is HUGE) are perceived as complete; perhaps being too accurate is the problem.
Any man of science will bless the fact that he has more than one piece of automatically obtained data to study.
In regards to this, both figures are data and it's a good thing a new method came to, but they have to be taken like that - data, to be ultimately appreciated and classified by human.
We're the humans, so we have to establish the criteria here, not the other way around. If leo bodnar tells you a plasma is super lagged, you pin it against a LCD that supposedly lags as much, and notice the plasma is way more responsive will you still say leo bodnar is right? that would be silly; science is about not being a blind believer, get to the root question it, and do your own testing. (for the record I'm one of those dudes that keeps CRT's around, and I really dislike input lag; if any plasma I had was lagged... I'd know; and I have several)
Leo Bodnar is really not making any favours for a Plasma - fact, it doesn't tell the whole story in reality it tells you very little; and it's looking for the wrong thing there; it's not the wrong thing on LCD's but it's the wrong thing on plasmas.
I know, we exchanged messages there.
I can only talk for european VT60's of course (I did the European distinction back there due to it) and like before if there's a nuance between USA and Europe/British models I find that very strange and dunno why it could be but fact is I'll trust british readings nonetheless, their methodology looks to be rock solid and I simply don't think they could have been doing it wrong for years now (for US models I can't speak, but providing the source I might also give them more credit than I do to you, sorry; I understand that you'd stand by it as I would if I delved into that and came to such results , but I'm being honest, I don't regard you as a "pro" so if a regarded pro says something with proper backing and feel I'll try to understand why he's saying that but if I have to choose blindly I'll still go by it). I found your results very strange though, because GT30 result was in line with the expected... the rest, not really, and it's fast camera mode there and it didn't feel like you were doing it wrong, but I also don't know if there's a big difference between the equipment you're using and theirs.
Nevertheless if they said VT60 is 23 ms fast camera method and 41 ms leo bodnar then that's what it is for the VT65B; unless firmware changed something in a big way.
The other part of the equation/reasoning is that I recently (very recently, it's still doing the break in) have purchased a VT60E and while it's sadly not meant for gaming (65" inches is too big for my gaming room, and I couldn't afford the 65 incher and a smaller GT60/VT60 for my game room) I tested it yesterday for gaming using "nintendo hard" classics that expect CRT's with 0 ms lag, I also still have the CRT's to go along with them so I know exactly how they should feel against my Panasonic 42X50; I'll never play them on a modern screen on a daily basis if I do own CRT's for the task, but they're a good test bed for input lag and response feel nonetheless, much more so than current gen games are.
I didn't test them side by side because VT60 is on the first floor and my CRT's are downstairs; nevertheless I also do have image processing equipment (basically a self assembled SLG in a box) meant for retro gaming on flat panels that adds some lag... to be more precise, it adds ~33 ms of lag, and I do slightly notice it when plugging it in onto a PC display even.
I didn't use it whilst testing though, but I'm saying this to illustrate the following; although it's very hard to say I really don't think I experienced more than 33 ms of lag in there; it behaved like linking directly to my X50 sans the SLG+GBS8220+SyncStripper shenanigans (if I turn that on over the TV then it becomes 33+16 ms or 49 ms of lag, it's mild noticeable while not something I can't deal with for most games).
I can't vouch for it other than "it felt like" I'm aware of placebo effect and all that; I don't even know if I can distinguish between 16 ms and 33 ms in a palpable way; but I notice lag if image processing reaches 50 ms; which is not so far from 41 ms.
I really don't think for a second that VT60 is 41 ms at all.
Mattlikewhoa
Member
Between those two models... I prefer the motion on the Sony unit (see watching sports). The colour accuracy was great, and the overall image look amazing with great clarity. The only thing I did not like was the fact that I noticed some clipping of the blacks and whites.
I prefer the colours/skin tones on the Samsung model. The image looked more "true to life" when I was viewing it. The issues with the Samsung units are clouding and light leakage. Be prepared to exchange a few sets, to get a great overall panel. While purchasing my 7000 series, I had to exchange mine twice.
Between those two you can't go wrong, but I'd go with the Sony.
HawksWinStanley
Member
I had a lengthy post typed up and the forum crapped out on me, so here are the cliffnotes.
- Finally ready to pull the trigger on a 60" S60. No go, they don't exist anywhere anymore. Crap.
- Budget is around $1,500 - looking at 55"-60" with at least 3 HDMI inputs. I have no interest in 3D, smart tv capabilites, or any other features like that. Just give me a big beautiful picture.
- Big fan of Panasonic plasmas. All the LCD/LED sets I've seen are unimpressive and overpriced. All seem to have some kind of dealbreaking issue whether it be vertical banding, edge bleeding, etc. I don't understand why plasmas are being phased out when this is the alternative. The only sets I saw that rivaled a plasma were all out of my budget and still weren't that impressive. I just went through the top rated LEDs on AVS and didn't really care for any of them.
- Looked into the ST60 but the lag issue kills it for me since this will eventually be my gaming tv when my 42" 85U craps out.
- The VT60 looks like my next viable option but now I'm starting to pay more for features I'll never use and people are complaining and actually returning this set because they all have some fan issue that causes the tv to make a "refrigerator whirring/buzzing" sound. I'm no stranger to plasma buzz, it's just one of the tradeoffs you make with that tech, but this seems to be more prominent than your typical buzz and for that kind of money I don't blame people for returning them for something else. I haven't heard it myself but it is apparently bad enough that Panasonic has attempted to address it in the newer runs of this model and still haven't corrected the problem.
- The ZT is another option but it's too expensive for features I don't care about.
So that's pretty much it. Even though I haven't been impressed by LCD/LEDs I'm certainly open to them. There have to be some older LED sets that were top of the line at one point with great PQ that have now been replaced with newer models. I'm open to any and all suggestions.
- Finally ready to pull the trigger on a 60" S60. No go, they don't exist anywhere anymore. Crap.
- Budget is around $1,500 - looking at 55"-60" with at least 3 HDMI inputs. I have no interest in 3D, smart tv capabilites, or any other features like that. Just give me a big beautiful picture.
- Big fan of Panasonic plasmas. All the LCD/LED sets I've seen are unimpressive and overpriced. All seem to have some kind of dealbreaking issue whether it be vertical banding, edge bleeding, etc. I don't understand why plasmas are being phased out when this is the alternative. The only sets I saw that rivaled a plasma were all out of my budget and still weren't that impressive. I just went through the top rated LEDs on AVS and didn't really care for any of them.
- Looked into the ST60 but the lag issue kills it for me since this will eventually be my gaming tv when my 42" 85U craps out.
- The VT60 looks like my next viable option but now I'm starting to pay more for features I'll never use and people are complaining and actually returning this set because they all have some fan issue that causes the tv to make a "refrigerator whirring/buzzing" sound. I'm no stranger to plasma buzz, it's just one of the tradeoffs you make with that tech, but this seems to be more prominent than your typical buzz and for that kind of money I don't blame people for returning them for something else. I haven't heard it myself but it is apparently bad enough that Panasonic has attempted to address it in the newer runs of this model and still haven't corrected the problem.
- The ZT is another option but it's too expensive for features I don't care about.
So that's pretty much it. Even though I haven't been impressed by LCD/LEDs I'm certainly open to them. There have to be some older LED sets that were top of the line at one point with great PQ that have now been replaced with newer models. I'm open to any and all suggestions.
AlimNassor
Banned
So, Gaf tell me for a 32" is the W650A better then the Samsung UN32F6300. Both are similar price. Help me gaf, which is better I need to know.
lostinblue
Banned
Can't you get a 65" S60? Are they gone as well?
They weren't profitable. Panasonic sales fell this year again, most consumers think nothing of them and think they're remnants of the past "plasma was replaced by LCD, right?", the fact Panasonic didn't market them enough and instead took the "prosumer" wait and they'll come position and economic situation didn't help, and they needed to work more closely with local stores, plasmas don't fare well due to peak light on a well lit store and against LCD's that can be cranked as high as 380 cd/m^2; of course their image quality sucks balls, but people are looking for brightness and inaccurate colors whilst on stores.
I'm still sad they didn't keep them in production for an extra year or two, even if they were the same panels/tech and they were just recouping costs, but it's sadly the consumer fault, they didn't vote with their wallets.
I also think consumers these days look at the energy ratings a little too much and plasma production lines were in a tight spot due to the emergence of 4K.
That's a normal thing.
I had a 2009 plasma on the living room, not an expensive one either (sadly) and the thing got complimented for good image on a regular basis, it boggles the mind that LCD's really haven't catch up in regards to panel uniformity and the like, which is something one has to take as granted if a mid 2000 plasma managed to hit the right notes just fine. Dead pixels, clouding and anything getting between me and the best possible image I expect is a defect after all.
LCD's still walked a long path lately and no one is calling them "shit", but for a lot of us having one as a replacement would be a downgrade.
I'm only sad I don't have money to buy more TV's now, the VT60 took all my money, lol. Otherise I'd be chasing after a 50ST50 that appeared on the cheap yesterday, for my gaming room.
Hopefully OLED's will catch up (and solve their reliability/lifespan issues) just so I don't have to go hunting down old Plasma's a few years from now.
So far, the fans on mine aren't really audible at all. Of course my fear is if after a few years it'll keep being silent or turn into something else, but so far so good.
It buzzes a little bit over full white, but that's normal and it's good old plasma buzz. Nothing too distracting.
They did?
Not worth it unless it's meant for a sunny living room and even then it's better, but not hugely so.
I say this but I've never seen one in the flesh though.
For gaming? hell yeah.