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[ThatObviousUser]

Each gen has added good things and bad thigns, but I think they should balance the game before adding new things. What's the point of having almost 500 soon 600 Pokemons, when only around 50 of them are useful, and around 10 of them almost mandatory.

Well a good chunk (probably a majority) are lower evolution forms, and nothing can be done to make those competitive. I mean, they tried with Pikachu I guess, but even that didn't do much.

 

[one_kill]

Definitely getting the black version :lol

 

[DieNgamers]

I really hope they completely scratch all the previous pokemon and just design new ones that fit into this scheme. Who cares about old light pokemon etc? How about a Pokemon game for the grown ups that played red&blue back in the day? More mature themes, designs and some macabre fun.

 

[OMG Aero]

What the hell do they make the third game?

...Red? And we call it the Newspaper Joke / Sun-burned Zebra generation?

Pokemon Grey I'd guess.

 

[Gravijah]

I really hope the completely scratch all the previous pokemon and just design new ones that fit into this scheme. Who cares about old light pokemon etc? How about a Pokemon game for the grown ups that played red&blue back in the day? More mature themes, designs and some macabre fun.

I think you just made my head explode.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I know I said I'd stop, but:

only around 50 of them are useful

If you think tier designations are the end-all, be-all of "usefulness," then you do not know how to play Pokemon. My main team has only 1 OU and I have a winning record on both cartridge play and ShoddyBattle.

Half of the roster, as said, is competitively useless by default anyway after taking into account pre-evolutions and Pokemon that are clearly meant to be jokes or novelties.

I really hope the completely scratch all the previous pokemon and just design new ones that fit into this scheme. Who cares about old light pokemon etc? How about a Pokemon game for the grown ups that played red&blue back in the day? More mature themes, designs and some macabre fun.

I'd honestly enjoy that as well, but it probably wouldn't go over too well considering that Ruby/Sapphire left a bad taste in other people's mouths because they lacked a complete selection of older Pokemon.

 

[Salsa]

I really hope the completely scratch all the previous pokemon

 

[upandaway]

I really hope the completely scratch all the previous pokemon and just design new ones that fit into this scheme. Who cares about old light pokemon etc? How about a Pokemon game for the grown ups that played red&blue back in the day? More mature themes, designs and some macabre fun.

No

Pokemon is not mature. Either accept that or go play a game you won't be embarrassed to play in public.

 

[Gravijah]

By the way I'm not sure if I missed it, but what exactly does the "teaser" thing say?

 

[one_kill]

I really hope the completely scratch all the previous pokemon

Yeah, it would be pretty cool if they scrapped all the previous Pokemon. Would totally refresh the series and maybe even reinvigorate it.

 

[upandaway]

By the way I'm not sure if I missed it, but what exactly does the "teaser" thing say?

Brand new, 2010, DS, those kinda things.

 

[Sqnalkel]

You said that "the metagame revolves around Blissey" when it only shows up in 1 of every 9 matches.
You said that "they have messed the metagame up so much they need to start over" when every generation has been better than the one that came before it.

This is dragging down the thread at this point, so I am probably going to stop here. I am hyped about Black & White and don't feel like souring the mood.

That's not what I said at first, what I said it's that I hated Blissey because for me it represents what it's wrong with the Metagame, then later I added something along the lines that the Metagame revolves around countering Blissey and few others. Are you telling me that isn't true that every team is builded around countering an small group of specific Pokemons and that Blissey isn't in that group? There are almost 500 Pokemons can't they do better than?

Yes things have changed since GSC specially with Blissey, which at that time was present in every battle, but the core problem is the same nonetheless, which is what I stated at first, then I just said that I hate Blissey because is the poster child of this problem.

And saying that every gen has been better that the former, even though I agree, I couldn't go back to previous games after playing with the mechanincs of newer versions, these mechanics have never balanced the game that much, and IMO has reached a point where adding more things isn't gonna help, hence the "they have messed the metagame up so much they need to start over".

 

[Sqnalkel]

I know I said I'd stop, but:


If you think tier designations are the end-all, be-all of "usefulness," then you do not know how to play Pokemon. My main team has only 1 OU and I have a winning record on both cartridge play and ShoddyBattle.

Good for you I guess, but I would have to see that Roster to see if your point actually stands, because I doubt your team is built any different than most teams, and having a Winning Record doesn't say much because it could be thanks to your skills and not necesarily your Pokemons, what I'm saying is that how would you do against equaled skilled trainers that use mostly OU Pokemons.

And just like you do that is possible to build a team to counter Ubers with maybe 2 Ubers only that doesn't change the fact that the Ubers Metagame revolve around only a few variables, which is OK for Ubers since they're a few, but it's not good for what should be the 'Standard' Metagame, the fact that we get more and more tiers only proves my point.

 

[DieNgamers]

I think you just made my head explode.

I don't mean a gritty, dark and angsty Pokemon game. Just a more mature one. The concept is there so why not make a game with it that contains a more interesting and varied world, good story? Ok, I know the answer (the money) but still.

 

[Sqnalkel]

Well a good chunk (probably a majority) are lower evolution forms, and nothing can be done to make those competitive. I mean, they tried with Pikachu I guess, but even that didn't do much.

Yes but 50 Pokemon with a ridiculously small group of almost mandatory Pokémons. I don't think they should make pre-evolutions competitive by the way except maybe Scyther.

I would be completely happy if all the Pokemons from the OU and UU and a few from NU like Articuno, Entei and the starters at least would be for the most part roughly equal competitively. That means not team building around a small group of Pokémon.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

That's not what I said at first, what I said it's that I hated Blissey because for me it represents what it's wrong with the Metagame, then later I added something along the lines that the Metagame revolves around countering Blissey and few others. Are you telling me that isn't true that every team is builded around countering an small group of specific Pokemons and that Blissey isn't in that group?

Okay, yeah, that makes more sense, but even that isn't 100% true anymore. Back in the RBY days, you were pretty much recommended to have a "counter" for everything, where a counter was defined as something that could switch in on the opposing Pokemon, not be threatened by anything the opponent could do on the switch, and then be able to reliably beat that Pokemon or force a switch.

That isn't really true anymore because there are just too many things to deal with in the 4th gen for that. You are not going to be able to counter every possible team combination. It's just not happening. Gen 4 is more about going in with your own gameplan and executing it than trying to counterattack everything your opponent does. There was a great Smogon thread about this idea where the OP was basically lecturing everyone on getting past their hang-ups with having to counter this or that, but I've been trying to look for it for the past 5 minutes or so and can't find it.

If you read Smogon's OU analysis pages, you'll often come across things in various Pokemon's "Counters" sections that say things like "____ actually doesn't have a 'true' counter," or "____ is surprisingly effective at putting big dents into its common counters with this moveset." The game just isn't played like that anymore. Then there's also the double battle metagame, where switches aren't as frequent and the old idea of countering holds even less water. Doubles is completely oriented on team synergy and execution.

 

[Salsa]

I don't mean a gritty, dark and angsty Pokemon game. Just a more mature one. The concept is there so why not make a game with it that contains a more interesting and varied world, good story? Ok, I know the answer (the money) but still.

Darker ? More mature ? nah.

Better (diferent) story ? Yeah, would be awesome.

About scratching all the previous Pokemon, i think the gif was pretty clear. ill be Ok with new Pokemon (and of course its happening), but ill also be ok with an improved game with the same pokemon we have until now...

And im thinking big-end of an era games with the titles alone. Black and White are about as definitive as the names can get.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Go buy the spin offs if you want a matuer/dark game.

 

[mandiller]

I hope they remove the need for HM slaves. They should make it so your character learns to do things like swim, rock climb or cut away bushes. Needing to carry around pokemon with all the bloody HM moves is just so stupid.

 

[DieNgamers]

Darker ? More mature ? nah.

Better (diferent) story ? Yeah, would be awesome.

About scratching all the previous Pokemon, i think the gif was pretty clear. ill be Ok with new Pokemon (and of course its happening), but ill also be ok with an improved game with the same pokemon we have until now...

And im thinking big-end of an era games with the titles alone. Black and White are about as definitive as the names can get.

If we had a full restart, including style, attitude, story and gameplay almost all of the newer Pokemon wouldn't really fit in, I think. The majority of them tend to look like some silly kind of hightech alien hybrid mixed with manga cuteness. Of course that won't happen so don't worry. ;D I would buy it, though!
About darker: I said I didn't mean it that way! More mature would be a huge plus for me. Just a random example: I consider Ghibli films to be mature but kids still have their fun with them.

 

[Firestorm]

I really hope they completely scratch all the previous pokemon

ima fuckin shoot you

 

[TestOfTide]

RSE was probably all right, but I'd never want to go back to the days when physical/special attributes were determined by type and not by individual attacks. Absol is one of my favorite Pokemon and he was useless in gen 3.

The problem is that when you imcrease the opportunities for pokemon to be effective on the offensive end, it needs to be met with increased effectiveness on the defensive end. There was very little done to help the defensive side, so you ended up with numerous sweepers who had perfect or near perfect type coverage but no improvement with the tanks or sponges. There are many new moves I would like to create a setup with, but can't because everything will first get stealthrock'd then sweeped before I can set up something clever.

 

[Salsa]

I consider Ghibli films to be mature but kids still have their fun with them.

Pokemon with Ghibli quality story. A man can dream

I hope they remove the need for HM slaves. They should make it so your character learns to do things like swim, rock climb or cut away bushes. Needing to carry around pokemon with all the bloody HM moves is just so stupid.

Seconded.

 

[Firestorm]

For competitive talk:
- nerf stealth rock
- completely redo every Pokemon's base stats to balance them
- nerf stealth rock

 

[Sixfortyfive]

The problem is that when you imcrease the opportunities for pokemon to be effective on the offensive end, it needs to be met with increased effectiveness on the defensive end. There was very little done to help the defensive side, so you ended up with numerous sweepers who had perfect or near perfect type coverage but no improvement with the tanks or sponges. There are many new moves I would like to create a setup with, but can't because everything will first get stealthrock'd then sweeped before I can set up something clever.

I think I agree, but since I tend to favor glass cannons and sweepers in general, this has never really bothered me.

 

[Sqnalkel]

Okay, yeah, that makes more sense, but even that isn't 100% true anymore. Back in the RBY days, you were pretty much recommended to have a "counter" for everything, where a counter was defined as something that could switch in on the opposing Pokemon, not be threatened by anything the opponent could do on the switch, and then be able to reliably beat that Pokemon or force a switch.

That isn't really true anymore because there are just too many things to deal with in the 4th gen for that. You are not going to be able to counter every possible team combination. It's just not happening. Gen 4 is more about going in with your own gameplan and executing it than trying to counterattack everything your opponent does. There was a great Smogon thread about this idea where the OP was basically lecturing everyone on getting past their hang-ups with having to counter this or that, but I've been trying to look for it for the past 5 minutes or so and can't find it.

If you read Smogon's OU analysis pages, you'll often come across things in various Pokemon's "Counters" sections that say things like "____ actually doesn't have a 'true' counter," or "____ is surprisingly effective at putting big dents into its common counters with this moveset." The game just isn't played like that anymore. Then there's also the double battle metagame, where switches aren't as frequent and the old idea of countering holds even less water. Doubles is completely oriented on team synergy and execution.

Like I said I'm not expert in D/P metagame, but I didn't see much of a diference from old gens, certain types are useless, certain types are mandatory, a lot of times you can use a Pokemon you like but most of the time you're better using a Pokémon that does the same job but better, and there is a small group of Pokémon that you see in every battle.

 

[Sqnalkel]

I hope they remove the need for HM slaves. They should make it so your character learns to do things like swim, rock climb or cut away bushes. Needing to carry around pokemon with all the bloody HM moves is just so stupid.

I'll meet you half-way. HM are important because you're in the Pokémon World so you should use your Pokémon to overcome obstacles, but they shoudn't take a Move Slot, that just dumb. I mean after you teach your Flying Pokémon Fly, it should never forget the out-of-battle skill.

Also make more creative ways to use them not so obvious dumb ones.

 

[upandaway]

For competitive talk:
- nerf stealth rock
- completely redo every Pokemon's base stats to balance them
- nerf stealth rock

Types! Types! Types!

I'm gonna have a go at some type changes (quick link here for reference).

Offenses: (Super Effective)
Poison:
Fighting, Psychic
Also PSN status should do more/less damage depending on type relations. Similarly, Badly Poisoned status should get to 100% after 10 turns for not very effective and 6 turns for normal effective (I'm actually not sure of the details but you get the idea).
Electric:
Steel
Bug:
Poison (totally switched it around)
Rock:
Electric

Defenses: (Not Very Effective)
Poison:
Immunity: Poison (I mean come on)
Normal effective: Psychic (I never got why Psychic was good on Poison)
Bug:
Poison, Psychic
Steel:
Normal effective: Ghost
Rock:
Electric
Fighting:
Fighting (this one should be obvious)

Fuck I'm done. I could find more but this is annoying.

 

[Sqnalkel]

For competitive talk:
- nerf stealth rock
- completely redo every Pokemon's base stats to balance them
- nerf stealth rock

I would add nerf the Moveset of certain Pokemon. I've always found the idea that certain Pokémon can use Ice, Electric, Fire moves without even being any of those types stupid. Ice Pokémons are never going to be useful is almost anything strong can use Ice Attacks, apparently the same is happening now to Electric types in this gen, and Fire types together with their ludicrous Weaknesses are in the same boat.

 

[Azure J]

Leave it to Nintendo/GF to find a way to drag my ass back into this series. First there was the fantastic HG/SS remakes, now this Pokemon Dusk/Dawn (because there's no way in hell Black & White are flying in the US :lol) teaser page has sent me into full on hype mode.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I would add nerf the Moveset of certain Pokemon. I've always found the idea that certain Pokémon can use Ice, Electric, Fire moves without even being any of those types stupid. Ice Pokémons are never going to be useful is almost anything strong can use Ice Attacks, apparently the same is happening now to Electric types in this gen, and Fire types together with their ludicrous Weaknesses are in the same boat.

This I agree with, but it can't be fixed if gen 4 -> gen 5 trading exists. You'd always be able to make the moveset you want on gen 4 and transfer it forward. (I was kind of baffled to see Tauros use Surf in the HGSS Viridian Gym. Has it always been able to learn that?)

I get a little bit annoyed when I see a moveset I like on Smogon, only to research it a little bit to find out that it requires special events exclusive to gen 3.

 

[Sqnalkel]

Types! Types! Types!

I don't know if that would balance the game, but Electric being weak against Rock both in the Offense and Defense plus their usual bad Movesets and Defense Stats would make them completely useless if you add the fact that so many Pokemon can use Electric Attacks without having the Electric Type. Also Fire Pokémon should be Normal against Rock in both fronts, and something should be done about Ice Types too.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Electric is neutral against Rock and vice/versa. Ground is what it's weak to. (Easy to mistake because Rock/Ground is such a common dual-typing.) EDIT: Misread what you were replying to. Nevermind.

In theory, Electric should be perfectly balanced as-is. It only has one weakness, and it is strong against some common types. It seems that what's holding it back is the fact that, like you said, lots of other types learn Thunderbolt/Thunderpunch, while Electric types seem to have more limited movepools on average.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Tauros has been able to use Surf for a while, at least since Silver IIRC.

 

[Sqnalkel]

This I agree with, but it can't be fixed if gen 4 -> gen 5 trading exists. You'd always be able to make the moveset you want on gen 4 and transfer it forward. (I was kind of baffled to see Tauros use Surf in the HGSS Viridian Gym. Has it always been able to learn that?)

I get a little bit annoyed when I see a moveset I like on Smogon, only to research it a little bit to find out that it requires special events exclusive to gen 3.

I find those kind of things like Pikachu and Taurus using Surf so absurd that I don't ever bother about it, but that doesn't add much of a problem since neither of those are useful. Who would use Pikachu instead of something like Starmie, and as long as Surf is a Special Attack is useless for Taurus.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I would add nerf the Moveset of certain Pokemon. I've always found the idea that certain Pokémon can use Ice, Electric, Fire moves without even being any of those types stupid. Ice Pokémons are never going to be useful is almost anything strong can use Ice Attacks, apparently the same is happening now to Electric types in this gen, and Fire types together with their ludicrous Weaknesses are in the same boat.

What are you talking about? They need those to counter their weakness types.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

What are you talking about? They need those to counter their weakness types.

Individual Pokemon shouldn't be able to effectively deal with all other Pokemon species. That's what their teammates are for.

 

[Boss Doggie]

They don't get STAB though.

 

[Sqnalkel]

What are you talking about? They need those to counter their weakness types.

Yes, I think everyone knows that Pokémons need a way to counter their Weaknesses, the problem is that some Pokémon have much better Movesets than others and a few of them have amazing stats to go with it, this make the Metagame completely umbalanced, for example if you need an Ice Attack you're better going with anything that isn't an Ice Pokémon.

By the way I wouldn't have a problem for example with a Dragon Pokémon that can use an Ice Move, or a Rock Pokémon using a Fire Move, or a Psychic Pokémon using an Electric Move, the problem is that there are some of them that can use two or even three of those, and all Water Pokémon can use Ice Attacks which makes Ice Pokémon useless.

 

[Sqnalkel]

They don't get STAB though.

Yet it's not rare to see Pokémon that don't even have an Attack that match any of their types. Why? Because versatility plus 2x or 4x is much better than 1.5x damage.

You know they should make weakness x1.5 and x2, of course they would also need to nerf Stalling Moves, so it's not an easy fix.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Maybe if they make moves that they are weak to deal only half damage?

 

[EzLink]

oh god oh god oh god

so goddam excited

get the names today, pokemon sunday stuff tomorrow, and corocoro info a few days later

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

 

[Doorman]

Maybe it's just me, but the Japanese Pokemon logo looks a lot more...intense, than the American one.

I like the Black and White version names, getting back to the old days of color-based names and not the weird jewelry and stuff we got from gens 3 and 4. Hopefully that comes with some major refinements of the game itself too. They're going to have to do something to justify putting a third Pokemon adventure on the DS.

 

[Hero of Legend]

Shouldn't this be merged with the other thread?

 

[cory]

Damn, those logos are hot.

Maybe it's just me, but the Japanese Pokemon logo looks a lot more...intense, than the American one.

This is the first Japanese logo that looks like this. The previous ones looked kind of cheap, IMO.

 

[TestOfTide]

I'm gonna have a go at some type changes (quick link here for reference).

Offenses: (Super Effective)
Poison:
Fighting, Psychic fighting i will agree with, but psychic is already only super effective against poison and fighting, so it be weak to poison
Also PSN status should do more/less damage depending on type relations. Similarly, Badly Poisoned status should get to 100% after 10 turns for not very effective and 6 turns for normal effective (I'm actually not sure of the details but you get the idea).
Electric:
Steel electrtic is already super effective against the most common type. no need to make it's offense even better
Bug:
Poison (totally switched it around) poison actually used to be super effective against bug, but the creators must have realized that fire,flying,rock were enough weaknesses. bug is good against psychic, dark, and grass, which are very commonly used types and more than enough
Rock:
Electric

Defenses: (Not Very Effective)
Poison:
Immunity: Poison (I mean come on)fire isn't immune to fire,so poison shouldn't be immune to poison type attacks
Normal effective: Psychic (I never got why Psychic was good on Poison)because otherwise, psychic would only be super effective against fighting and poison would only have one weakness. think of a shaman if the imagery is difficult to get
Bug:
Poison, Psychic psychic yes, but poison already sucks on the offensive end
Steel:
Normal effective: Ghost [
Rock:
Electric:
Fighting:
Fighting (this one should be obvious)no it shouldn't because fighting is supposed to be like normal type but with better offense
Ice: water. Why ice is not resistant to water just baffles me. Ice is good on the offensive end, but that doesn't mean it should have worse resistance than normal type

.

The problem is that they need to add more types to weaken the following offensive combos:

Normal & Water
Fire & Dragon
Ground & Rock
Fighting & Ghost
Bug & Fighting

And the following defenses:

Steel and Bug
Water & Ground
Water & Dragon
BRONZONG
SKARMORY
BLISSEY

 

[Rich!]

So, uh - the first images of Pokemon Black/White have been discovered. I would have posted in the other thread, but it's been closed, and I'm not sure it's worth opening a new one. :lol

They are magazine scans, so I can't link them - but go have a look at Kokatu, it's on the main page.

What do I think of them? Interesting new perspective in the towns and cities (more 3D), but the battle system doesn't look any different. fuck. Looks disappointingly similar to the other DS ones, IMO. Ah well.

edit - oops, looks like they've got comparisons of the other DS games, and the new black/white images. I was looking at the wrong ones. In that case, the battle system looks possibly awesome.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

I was thinking about the Pokewalker after the other thread was locked. Three points:

1. Black and White need to be compatible with the Pokewalker
2. The Pokewalker 2 should be bundled with it
3. The Pokewalker 2 should have the full battle system and wireless battles

 

[udivision]

First there was the fantastic HG/SS remakes, now this Pokemon Dusk/Dawn (because there's no way in hell Black & White are flying in the US :lol)

You're overestimating the "controversy" of the name a bit too much.

 

[ILikeFeet]

shit, people still think Black/White is racist? jeebus it's not the 60s anymore, get a fucking grip.