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PoliGAF 2012 |OT3| If it's not a legitimate OT the mods have ways to shut it down

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K

Kosmo

Banned
RDreamer said:
So what do you say about the Republican hypocrisy that is going around that Angry Fork just brought up? Republicans seem to be saying that dictators should be propped up and kept in power for the sake of stability.
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We actually have a long history of doing this with support from both sides of the aisle. You should read Confessions of an Economic Hitman. It's only when dictators stop playing nice and supporting the military-industrial complex that we off them.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
pigeon said:
If there was something so obviously exceptional about America it wouldn't be an issue. Like, if Americans were all taller than everybody else, if somebody dissed America we wouldn't talk about American exceptionalism. We would go into their house and put all their stuff on the top shelf.

The whole point of the American exceptionalism discussion is that people desperately want to believe America was successful and dominated the world for a hundred years because it was special. Because if America's success is not due to exceptionalism, then your personal success might not be due to exceptionalism, and your neighbor's failure might not be due to his not being exceptional enough -- in fact, it might turn out that people aren't successful because of God choosing them for a special purpose, or because of their natural talents and drive that raise them above others, but essentially because of luck and factors outside of anybody's control. And that's not the American way.
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Don't these folks believe that success is also possible...in other countries?
 
R

RDreamer

Member
Kosmo said:
We actually have a long history of doing this with support from both sides of the aisle. You should read Confessions of an Economic Hitman. It's only when dictators stop playing nice and supporting the military-industrial complex that we off them.
Click to expand...

I realize that both sides have done this throughout our history, and that is also what leads to a lot of anger towards our country. When you prop up dictators, some people tend to get pissed. Anyway, the narrative following the Iraq invasion was that he needed to go, because he was an awful dictator. Even the people who seemed to say things were bungled were pretty forgiving about it all, because, yeah, awful dictator. Now with the Arab Spring, say what you will about partial conspiracies and the US instigating them, they were pretty people led revolutions. The people of those countries took power into their own hands, whether prodded ideologically by Americans or not, that seems to be what happened. Now you have people like Sarah Palin and Donald Trump, etc, saying that those horrible dictators were better in power there, because at least we were safe or something. These, to me, shouldn't really be people lauding the virtues of dictatorship (Sarah loves freedom, I thought!). The whole Republican party, the people waving the banner of freedom over fucking everything, really really shouldn't be praising dictators just because we may have been "safer," especially not so brazen and out in the open as these people have been. I'd still say it's blatant hypocrisy that they're calling into question the democracies that have happened in these countries. Sure maybe the people we didn't like won, but that shouldn't mean that the dictator was better. Dictators are bad, full stop. It strikes me as overly hypocritical and selfish what they're doing and saying.


matthewwhatever said:
In their defense, that was US policy for about 50 years...
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I know, but it was a selfish policy, and I think many people realize that now. I just don't think you're doing yourself any favors by openly stating you'd rather have people be oppressed by dictatorship somewhere else in the world.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
RustyNails said:
Don't these folks believe that success is also possible...in other countries?
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I mean, I don't think they really do. Do you read a lot in American newspapers about how successful the Europeans are? I think the unconscious thought process is that in those socialist foreign countries you can "get by," but only in America can you truly succeed.
 
K

Kosmo

Banned
RustyNails said:
Don't these folks believe that success is also possible...in other countries?
Click to expand...

Success is possible in all civilized countries. Unfortunately, many countries in the Middle East have proven to have too many uncivil members of society in order to be successful. If there is still a significant portion of your population that resorts to killing for essentially being called a name, sorry, your country has little chance of success until that segment is marginalized and controlled so they can't do any damage.
 
C

Chichikov

Member
richiek said:
Actually, Connecticut is evenly divided between Yankee and Red Sox fans.
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Don't you have bigger problems to contend with up there?

yes, I'm full of hate.

Kosmo said:
Success is possible in all civilized countries. Unfortunately, many countries in the Middle East have proven to have too many uncivil members of society in order to be successful. If there is still a significant portion of your population that resorts to killing for essentially being called a name, sorry, your country has little chance of success until that segment is marginalized and controlled so they can't do any damage.
Click to expand...
Colonialism is making a comeback!
And it worked so well the first time around.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
Kosmo said:
Success is possible in all civilized countries. Unfortunately, many countries in the Middle East have proven to have too many uncivil members of society in order to be successful. If there is still a significant portion of your population that resorts to killing for essentially being called a name, sorry, your country has little chance of success until that segment is marginalized and controlled so they can't do any damage.
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Haha. How did middle east get dragged into this?

So are you saying you cannot earn an honest living in middle east, or make your way to the top from the bottom of the ladder through virtue of your hard work and principled work ethic? I'd like to burst the bubble you conservatives live in so hard.
 
R

RDreamer

Member
Guevara said:
Neighbor just put on a Romney bumpersticker (next to a Reagan sticker).

Wrap it up Obama.
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Speaking of bumper stickers... Yesterday on the way to work I saw a dude whose bumper was just covered in conservative stickers. One that said Conservative, one for Ryan/Romney, one for, of course, Ronald Reagan, and another one that was a play on the Coexist sticker that said Capitalist. It had some GOP symbols and a gun and stuff in it. I was laughing to myself as I passed him. Apparently he caught that laughing, and got very very angry next time he passed me (it was slow morning traffic). I think he wanted to fight. Which was odd, because I'm not entirely sure how he knew what I was laughing at. For all he knew I could be laughing at my damned radio or something.

Also, I really have to question the people with stickers that are parodies of the Coexist thing. It's like they exist as a refutation of the coexist notion that religions should play nice, and instead the world is some other way or should be some other way. The other day I saw a sticker that was just Exist made out of guns. I really wtf'd at that. That's like saying no, religions shouldn't get along together, instead we need guns just to exist. What kind of person has a worldview like that?

RustyNails said:
Haha. How did middle east get dragged into this?

So are you saying you cannot earn an honest living in middle east, or make your way to the top from the bottom of the ladder through virtue of your hard work and principled work ethic? I'd like to burst the bubble you conservatives live in so hard.
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I'm not entirely sure on the conservative worldview of success in the middle east, though I'd hazard a guess that they'd think it's less possible somehow. As it pertains to Europe they seem to think that there can be people who would be successful, but the country doesn't allow them to be. They get everything taken away and given to those lazy poors when they become successful.
 
R

RDreamer

Member
lol, this is kind of funny

ZLSck.jpg
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S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Aaron Strife said:
Still haven't seen one pro-Romney sticker. I did see a sign though after driving around a rural town for a bit.
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Yesterday I saw a white mini cooper with the vanity plate "OBAMA" but I haven't seen a Romney sticker even in hillbilly lands east of here. During Bush Cheney there were zillions as soon as you drove out of town.
 
R

RDreamer

Member
Wow, bad news day for Romney

“Mitt Romney on Wednesday strongly criticized President Obama’s response to attacks on Americans in the Middle East, prompting both Republicans and Democrats to warn Romney against seeking political points over a crisis involving the death of US citizens abroad,” the Boston Globe writes. “Romney alleged that Obama was sympathizing with the attackers because of a statement that the US Embassy in Cairo issued condemning an online video offensive to Muslims as an example of religious intolerance. Romney said Wednesday the statement was issued after the attack in Cairo, as a response to it. But it was actually issued before the attack, specifically in response to growing anger in Egypt over the offensive video.”


The AP: “Mitt Romney is a Republican standard-bearer largely standing alone in his rush to criticize President Barack Obama after violent attacks on U.S. diplomatic missions in Egypt and Libya. Romney’s quick swing at Obama — as the crisis was unfolding in the Middle East and North Africa — was glaringly at odds with the more statesmanlike responses Wednesday from GOP leaders in Congress to the killing of Ambassador Chris Stevens and three others Americans in Benghazi and to the U.S. Embassy breach in Cairo.”

In a separate story, the AP says Romney “seriously mischaracterized” what happened.
The New York Times editorial page says Romney “showed an extraordinary lack of presidential character.”

The Washington Post editorial page called Romney’s response “a discredit to his campaign.” And it points out: “Romney claimed that the administration had delivered ‘an apology for America’s values.’ In fact, it had done no such thing: Religious tolerance, as much as freedom of speech, is a core American value.” And about the video: “it was striking that Mr. Romney had nothing to say about such hatred directed at a major religious faith.”

The New York Times: “The deadly attack on an American diplomatic post in Libya propelled foreign policy to the forefront of an otherwise inward-looking presidential campaign and presented an unexpected test not only to the incumbent, who must manage an international crisis, but also to the challenger, whose response quickly came under fire. … Romney came under withering criticism for distorting the chain of events overseas and appearing to seek political advantage from an attack that claimed American lives.”

The New York Daily News’ DeFrank: “Mitt Romney’s reaction to the U.S. diplomatic murders is a fresh reminder why some senior GOP officials are worried over how he’ll fare in next month’s foreign policy debate. Romney has just learned the hard way that dabbling in what Henry Kissinger termed the forbidden fruit of foreign policy is a lot like gambling — the odds generally favor the house.”
More: “In his zeal to capitalize on the Cairo demonstrations, Romney overreached, then got overtaken by tragic events in Benghazi, Libya. That forced him, in effect, to double down with a Wednesday press conference where he looked ill at ease, defensive, opportunistic and — even some of his most ardent GOP boosters privately conceded — unpresidential.”


USA Today: “A presidential campaign that's been all about the economy shifted suddenly to foreign policy Wednesday following the murderous attack on U.S. diplomats in Libya, giving President Obama an advantage over a challenger who has yet to start receiving national security briefings. … While Obama was condemning the attacks, vowing justice against the perpetrators and consoling the victims' families and State Department colleagues, Romney doubled down on a statement he initially released Tuesday night accusing the administration of sympathizing with the attackers.”

Major Garrett: “Mitt Romney has picked a big fight fraught with political risks amid an ongoing foreign-policy crisis with heartbreaking and murderous consequences for the U.S. diplomatic corps. And by the end of the day on Wednesday, he walked straight into a forearm shiver from the commander-in-chief—one that may leave a mark and intensify scrutiny of Romney’s foreign-policy qualifications.”
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R

RDreamer

Member
Loudninja said:
Romney: Obama Wants U.S. To Have Capacity For One Military Conflict At A Time

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/romney-obama-wants-us-to-have-capacity-for

Ughhhhhhhhhhh
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Hahahahahahaha. Even if that were somehow true, I'd love to see him keep going with that line. I don't think "this president only wants one conflict at a time" will play well at all with independents. Good christ who thought this was a good statement to make? Does Romney even have advisers anymore?
 
B

Byakuya769

Member
Kosmo said:
Success is possible in all civilized countries. Unfortunately, many countries in the Middle East have proven to have too many uncivil members of society in order to be successful. If there is still a significant portion of your population that resorts to killing for essentially being called a name, sorry, your country has little chance of success until that segment is marginalized and controlled so they can't do any damage.
Click to expand...

Why are you shitting on 19th and 20th century America? Do you hate America?
 
B

Blergmeister

Member
Kosmo is right. The world is better off with dictators in charge of some countries. That is why we are voting for Obama 2012! There is no better dictator in chief!
 
A

Averon

Member
Why is Romney doubling down on foreign policy? It's his weakest area and he doesn't have the foreign policy cred Bush and Obama has. Everyday that it's not about the economy he's losing. Is this a round-about admission he can't win with the economy alone?
 
K

kehs

Banned
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
I know I've joked about Obama and Biden is cheesy mustaches have been running Romney's campaign, but I'm starting to think its true. It just seems insane that someone would think this would help.
 
R

RDreamer

Member
The Atlantic compares Romney's response to Reagan's

Foreign-policy crises don't often punctuate presidential campaigns. And when they do, the response from the campaign trail usually isn't to criticize the commander in chief. Mitt Romney's sharp statements on the Obama Administration's response to a fatal attack on the U.S. consulate in Libya are a departure from the approach taken by Republicans in a similar position over 40 years ago -- most notably, that of Ronald Reagan.

Former President Carter's handling of the Iranian hostage crisis helped torpedo his reelection hopes. But when news broke in April 1980 that an attempt to rescue Americans held hostage at the Tehran embassy had failed, the immediate response from the campaign trail was more supportive than critical.

Former California Governor Ronald Reagan told reporters it wouldn't be appropriate for him to express an opinion at that time. "This is the time for us as a nation and a people to stand united" and to pray, Reagan said, according to United Press International.

George H.W. Bush, also campaigning for the Republican presidential nomination, went further. "I unequivocally support the president of the United States -- no ifs, ands or buts -- and it certainly is not a time to try to go one-up politically. He made a difficult, courageous decision," Bush said in Michigan, UPI reported.

Democratic challenger Senator Edward Kennedy of Massaschusetts also called for unity. The strongest criticism of Carter came from a Democratic long-shot: then-Rep. Henry Reuss, D-Wis., who said that Carter should withdraw his candidacy and "quietly serve out his term without any more impulsive actions," UPI reported.

Although the Reagan campaign wasn't afraid to go after Carter's foreign-policy record in campaign ads later that year, he refrained from inflammatory rhetoric when he debated Carter as the GOP nominee that fall.

"Your question is difficult to answer," Reagan said, when the debate moderator asked how he would deal with a similar hostage crisis. "Because, in the situation right now, no one wants to say anything that would inadvertently delay, in any way, the return of those hostages if there is a chance of their coming home soon, or that might cause them harm."
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It's really interesting seeing these contrasts from the real Reagan and the devout followers of Saint Reagan today....
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
brianmcdoogle said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/13/federal-reserve-ben-bernanke-live
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Good news, it's about damn time.

Side note: I don't check the markets with frequency, but I like to see how they respond to major events. *pop*

RDreamer said:
The Atlantic compares Romney's response to Reagan's

It's really interesting seeing these contrasts from the real Reagan and the devout followers of Saint Reagan today....
Click to expand...

Yeah, they've had to both invent a version of Obama to run against, and then invent a version of Reagan to compare him to. That reality distortion field is a powerful mofo.
 
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